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Thread: How strong is Byakuya?

  1. #346
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Byakuya is a mid tier captain. He is cannot beat the Senior Captains (this includes Visored, Kisuke, Yourichi w/ Zan, and Tessai). He can roflstomp the rest though fairly well except Zenpachi.

    Zenpachi and Byakuya have actually fought. Originally Gin stopped them from even drawing their swords in the Soul Society Arc, but they finally do fight during the Arrancar/Mundo Arc. Zaraki had already tanked and beat 5th Espada, he was fighting/tanking the 10th Espada next. Byakuya joins him after Zaraki already got some major hits onto the 10th Espada. They tag team and the 10th espada is downed, slowly bleeding out to death unconsciously. You see the two fight a bit, but you don't see the end of their fight. Afterwards you see two scenes. The first is the 10th espada waking up to his Arrancar dog barking, telling it to shutup then finally dying. The second is both captains walking back in Soul Society with cannon fodder Shinigami greeting them and asking if they need medical attention. Both of them are equally injured and it is implied that the fight between the captains was a stalemate. However as I said before, their fight was after Zaraki had tanked 2 Espada, enough said.
    Last edited by TisForTat; October 14, 2013 at 02:42 PM.

  2. #347
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    I seriously doubt they fought against each other for fun while others were trying to protect SS from Aizen. My take of that scene is that they barely managed to beat Yammy and they were already injured from their previous fights. Not much to go by, actually.

    Most of fights are of unknown nature to me. I don't know how well he would fare against the Vaizards or to be more specific, I don't know which one of those can overwhelm him. Not knowing Shinji's Bankai, I think Byakuya's a bad opponent for his Shikai alone. He has an omni-directional power and unless he dies without even being able to comprehend the optical illusion, he might adjust his Bankai in accordance. In the same sense, I'd say Byakuya wouldn't do that good against Rose's disruptive power, and might just be able to keep up with Love or not.

    As for others.. Sure, Yoruichi has the speed to outduel him in a Shunpo tag play, but what would she do against his Bankai? Is Shunko enough to beat him? I'd say Soifon would be a more dangerous opponent with her Homonka. Tessai is a complete mystery, so, I won't comment about it, since it basically depends on how much Tessai has in his Kido arsenal that we don't know of. Urahara is perhaps the most difficult opponent for Byakuya to defeat, since they share the same versatile style, yet Urahara has more experience and can intellectually outsmart him with relative ease.

  3. #348
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    I seriously doubt they fought against each other for fun while others were trying to protect SS from Aizen. My take of that scene is that they barely managed to beat Yammy and they were already injured from their previous fights. Not much to go by, actually.

    Most of fights are of unknown nature to me. I don't know how well he would fare against the Vaizards or to be more specific, I don't know which one of those can overwhelm him. Not knowing Shinji's Bankai, I think Byakuya's a bad opponent for his Shikai alone. He has an omni-directional power and unless he dies without even being able to comprehend the optical illusion, he might adjust his Bankai in accordance. In the same sense, I'd say Byakuya wouldn't do that good against Rose's disruptive power, and might just be able to keep up with Love or not.

    As for others.. Sure, Yoruichi has the speed to outduel him in a Shunpo tag play, but what would she do against his Bankai? Is Shunko enough to beat him? I'd say Soifon would be a more dangerous opponent with her Homonka. Tessai is a complete mystery, so, I won't comment about it, since it basically depends on how much Tessai has in his Kido arsenal that we don't know of. Urahara is perhaps the most difficult opponent for Byakuya to defeat, since they share the same versatile style, yet Urahara has more experience and can intellectually outsmart him with relative ease.
    Yoruichi has Flash Cry, not just Shunpo. Flash Cry is a combo of Kido and Taijutsu, it would be effective against Shikai/Bankai. Both her Flashcry and his Zan function very similarly as both fulfill offensive and defensive roles. On a side note for some reason she hasn't utilized her Zan once in present time through the entire plot, but under hype if she were to, on top of her other 2 main combat abilities, she'd certainly being quite a handful. Also Soifon's Bankai is overhyped. It's honestly just comparable to a cero that can only be fired once (3 day cooldown, fights don't even last longer than 1 day, using it more often than that completely trashes her).

    Shinji's Shikai is not the reason why he has a strong advantage, it is more so the fact that he can hollowfy. Ichigo in SS arc turned into a fodder Visored during their fight yet he started to completely kick Byakuya's arse immediately. I say fodder Visored because he doesn't even come close to being on the same level he was after training with the Visored senpais pre-Mundo Arc.

    Same application of Hollowfication to the other Visored Captains on top of their Shikai that are actually more relevant than Shinji's. Simply put, Shinji's Shikai is overhyped, Aizen said it well in that it was a far cry from his KS. Bankai would be very interesting though.

    Tessai is on par with Yoriuchi in terms using his Zan. It's an unknown factor. Regardless he is just slightly below or on par with Kisuke. Kido is very effective against Byakuya's Shikai and Bankai due to barriers and destructive magic.

    Kisuke and Byakuya were both trained under Yoriuchi ironically. Regardless, it seem we can agree that Kisuke would win.

  4. #349
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Sanadan's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    I don't get why the vizards gets held in such high regards only based on being vaizard. So far I am only impressed by.........damn what's this name? Aizens former captain....
    Meh

  5. #350
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Firebird0ne's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanadan View Post
    I don't get why the vizards gets held in such high regards only based on being vaizard. So far I am only impressed by.........damn what's this name? Aizens former captain....
    I agree. Shinji does seem exceptionally powerful and on a level to challenge Byakuya, but the others just did not look that impressive. It can't be assumed simply because Ichigo easily slashed Byakuya in hollowfied form, that all of the vizards fight at that level. That makes too big an assumption. Ichigo is far removed from a normal shimgami, and the other vizards are, as Aizen put it, failed experiments, while Aizen sees Ichigo much differently. I think vizard ability does amplify a shinigami's power. However, for the other vizards to be stronger than Byakuya, they would have to have begun with power on the level of Ichigo's. We already know that Ichigo's power is not like a normal shinigami's. Therefore, it can't be assumed just because they are vizards that they are stronger than Byakuya.

    I have seen that some people have brought up that the vizards took turns fighting Ichigo in his vizard training, but I would argue that while Byakuya was taken by complete surprise when Ichigo hollowfied, they had the advantage of knowing exactly what was coming. Add to that the fact that Byakuya had been on the verge of finishing Ichigo and had no reason to expect him to be able to move, much less attack and you see it wasn't about Byakuya's strength as much as the element of surprise and the fact that, unlike the vizards, he had no concept of what he was fighting. The vizards were not trying to kill Ichigo, but to control, so they were defending...much easier to do since they were evading, while Byakuya was still trying to counterattack. The whole style of fighting was different in the two cases, so they aren't really a good comparison.

    While Shinji certainly would be a tough opponent for Byakuya, I don't see any of the rest being at that level.

  6. #351
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Sanadan's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    On Shinji, Byakuya has a pesky bankai for him. It covers such a large area and all of it is in danger of being hit. I don't know how much he registers when it hits but if he knows what hits his opponent then Shinjis Bankai is kind of.....redundant vs Byakuya.
    Meh

  7. #352
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    I don't really get why Shinji is so overrated. Actually compared to other Vaizard Captains his Shikai powers seem the less impressive. Even his overall Shinigami and Hollow powers seem less impressive than either Kensei's, Love's or Rose's. Heck, even Hachi impressed me more than he did.

    And well, why Vaizards are put over Byakuya? Maybe because none of them needed even Shikai during the War, while Byakuya stated that he needed Bankai in order to defeat Aes Nodt who didn't even use his Vollstaendig?

  8. #353
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Sanadan's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    I don't really get why Shinji is so overrated. Actually compared to other Vaizard Captains his Shikai powers seem the less impressive. Even his overall Shinigami and Hollow powers seem less impressive than either Kensei's, Love's or Rose's. Heck, even Hachi impressed me more than he did.

    And well, why Vaizards are put over Byakuya? Maybe because none of them needed even Shikai during the War, while Byakuya stated that he needed Bankai in order to defeat Aes Nodt who didn't even use his Vollstaendig?
    Maybe they faced scrubs. There is no way to know.
    Meh

  9. #354
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Firebird0ne's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    I don't really get why Shinji is so overrated. Actually compared to other Vaizard Captains his Shikai powers seem the less impressive. Even his overall Shinigami and Hollow powers seem less impressive than either Kensei's, Love's or Rose's. Heck, even Hachi impressed me more than he did.

    And well, why Vaizards are put over Byakuya? Maybe because none of them needed even Shikai during the War, while Byakuya stated that he needed Bankai in order to defeat Aes Nodt who didn't even use his Vollstaendig?
    Byakuya easily cut As Nodt in shikai. He went bankai as a way to gain information for soul society about what the shinigamis mistakenly thought was a bankai seal. Had he stayed in shikai, he would not have fallen easy prey to As Nodt. I say that because, in addition to cutting him in shikai, he did actually break through the fear attack. And as for As Nodt going Vollstandig? Only one even looked like they did. There wasn't much time, as the initial attack was over too quickly. If not crushed by his own bankai, there's every reason to believe he would have fared as well as the other captains.

    Also, we did not even see who the vizards faced. As Sanadan said, they could have been crap fighters, for all we know. You can't conclude anything based on that.

  10. #355
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Ranking of Captains - No Bankai

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    Because he used it to block his strike, not attempt to hurt him. My point was that Byakuya managed to defend against a Sternritter with only his Shikai despite you believing it's weak.
    Mask still connected with the blades and was completely unscathed. Also your point about "defending" with his Shikai, isn't a feat. Byakuya intercepted Mask. If Mask had attempted to overpower or breakthrough his Shikai then you would have a point. He connected with Byakuya's Shikai and didn't press the attack.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    Testament to Byakuya's power. He managed to cut through As Nodt's Blut easily, despite As Nodt attempting to tank the blow. Mask asked him why he allowed his Blut to be torn so easily because he thought the only reason he managed to cut through it is because he dropped his guard, which wasn't the case, as the look of shock on As Nodt's face proves. As Nodt was shocked because he was lead to believe that Byakuya would need Bankai to do any significant damage, and he was proven wrong.
    Mask scolded As Nodt for letting his Blut get torn so easily. The attack didn't harm Mask, he knew it was an easy attack to defend against hence why he scolded As Nodt for letting his Blut get torn so easily. Also I would also argue your use of the word significant damage, their were small cuts on his hand, hardly significant.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    Which is entirely irrelevant considering he's not fighting with just shikai. Not to mention if he can cut him once, he can cut him more times. You have canon proof right there that Senbonzakura>As Nodt's Blut. The only way my "assumption" could be wrong is if As Nodt was responsible for his Blut being torn by deliberately holding back (which is not what happened, as we know, canonically, that he was tanking shikai level attacks inorder to force his opponents to reveal their bankai so that he can steal them).
    No, we have canon proof of As Nodt lapse in judgement and Mask completely unscathed by Byakuya's Shikai. Your "assumption" would stand if Mask also was harmed by Byakuya's Shikai and if he didn't scold As Nodt for letting his blut get torn so easily.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    Never came close to damaging a high level opponent with Shikai... yet he tore through As Nodt's Blut easily.

    Never did it... but did it in the very first reply I made.

    Sigh.
    Your argument that Byakuya can damage As Nodt, so he can just do that over and over, going for vitals etc isn't a sound argument. It's actually disproved by Byakuya himself when he says that the SR aren't opponents you could defeat with Shikai.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    Any foe wielding strong enough reiatsu to cut a Captain class opponent is relevant. Any foe. Even if they're fleshy humans who can't endure damage the way shinigami and arrancar can, they can still dish it out.
    As I have stated, the Fullbringers amounted to fodder. Ginjo, the leader, while relying on his Fullbring powers was easily dispatched by Ichigo in his Shikai. Byakuya was the only one who had trouble. Also your argument that "anyone with strong enough reiatsu to cut a Captain class opponent is relevant" is a flawed argument, when Shuhei actually cut a hollowfied Tosen.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    You're again limiting Byakuya's zanpakuto to basic Kenpachi-style logic. "Either I hit harder than you do, or I'm worthless." That's not the strength of Senbonzakura or SKY. It's strength comes from it's speed and ability to attack from any angle. He has the power to stab you in your weak points continuously, defend and attack at the same time, and do it all from range.
    No you simply don't understand my argument. I will give you an example. When Byakuya fought Yammy the damage from SKY was minor. So even if he attacked him continuously it would arguably take a long time to defeat him while trying to remain unharmed himself. My point is this; If the damage from his Bankai was so minor, the fact his Shikai is 5 - 10 times weaker, the damage would be close to nonexistent, even overtime as you say.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    You've stated it before, and you were wrong every single time, and continue to be so. Byakuya's bankai doesn't have trouble finishing high level foes. Byakuya is limited by plot.

    You have yet to explain to me why, despite As Nodt hitting Byakuya several times with SKY and proving it's canonically possible, Byakuya always stops hitting his foes after one blow from SKY. If he had hit any of the opponents you listed as often as he wanted, they would have been abominated.
    Let's look at the bolded part. Ichigo himself stated he should of went Bankai. Zommari was hit by a continuous attack. The damage to Yammy was minor, the fight was off panel in anyway. He couldn't defeat Tsukishima with SKY in the conventional manor. That's it. Your argument doesn't stand. His only legitimate feats would be defeating a Shikai Ichigo and even that is flawed considering Ichigo said it was arrogant of him to challenge Bankai with Shikai.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    Wait a second: let's use your logic for a second. You claim that Byakuya's bankai is weak because he hits his foes once, and then stops his attack, resulting in them not being beaten into submission (apparently the only way to be considered powerful around here is to one-shot your opponents). He's weak, because he's holding back. But you praise Kenpachi for holding back.

    Why the double standard? Why is Kenpachi holding back fine, but Byakuya holding back not fine?
    No double standard. You just don't understand my argument. Also, could you clarify who he was holding back against? Renji is obvious. But who else?

    Also I want to counter your argument with my own;

    If Byakuya's Shikai is worth noting why did he opt to use his Bankai when finishing off Renji? As we seen his Shikai could do nothing to Renji during their fight.

    In his fight with Ichigo, Shikai Ichigo easily overpowered his Shikai with GT.

    In his fight with Zommari, with Gokei not killing him, what would Byakuya's Shikai do?

    In his brief fight with Yammy, Sky did minor damage, what would his Shikai do?

    You stated that Tsukishima overpowered his Shikai. Despite the Fullbringers being fodder. His ability was great but it did not offer him any physical power ups.

    And lastly, you argue that it cut through As Nodt's Blut so it can damage high level opponents. Again all evidence to the contrary. It didn't affect Mask. Also when Mask scolds As Nodt, he says "don't let your blut get torn so easily" Implies he allowed it. I take this to mean he was surprised at Byakuya's attack, yet could of strengthened his Blut should he of wanted to. Further evidence, is Byakuya, himself stating, the SR are not opponents you can defeat with just Shikai.
    Last edited by Miyagi; October 18, 2013 at 05:02 AM.

  11. #356
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Firebird0ne's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains - No Bankai

    Quote Originally Posted by vanyar View Post
    Mask still connected with the blades and was completely unscathed. Also your point about "defending" with his Shikai, isn't a feat. Byakuya intercepted Mask. If Mask had attempted to overpower or breakthrough his Shikai then you would have a point. He connected with Byakuya's Shikai and didn't press the attack.
    Sorry to jump in uninvited, but you are absolutely off course here. Byakuya wasn't attacking Mask, he was placing his petals between the guy and Renji. He wasn't trying to cut him, but was defending his vice captain.



    Quote Quote:
    Mask scolded As Nodt for letting his Blut get torn so easily. The attack didn't harm Mask, he knew it was an easy attack to defend against hence why he scolded As Nodt for letting his Blut get torn so easily. Also I would also argue your use of the word significant damage, their were small cuts on his hand, hardly significant.
    As I said, Byakuya wasn't attacking him at all, just getting his petals in between Renji and Mask to protect Renji. And they looked pretty darned significant to me. Blood was erupting from them in good supply.



    Quote Quote:
    No, we have canon proof of As Nodt lapse in judgement and Mask completely unscathed by Byakuya's Shikai. Your "assumption" would stand if Mask also was harmed by Byakuya's Shikai and if he didn't scold As Nodt for letting his blut get torn so easily.
    See above...and since when does an enemy's bluster count as fact? Many characters misstate, overstate or understate. You can't call that fact, 'just cause he said so.' But, nice try!



    Quote Quote:
    Your argument that Byakuya can damage As Nodt, so he can just do that over and over, going for vitals etc isn't a sound argument. It's actually disproved by Byakuya himself when he says that the SR aren't opponents you could defeat with Shikai.
    Again, you automatically believe it just because he said that. And maybe with some it's true. But it's not proven, nor known fact. Look at another 'fact' Byakuya and the others stated. They stated that the medallion sealed bankai. That was erroneous, as could be anything characters SAY. It isn't necessarily fact because someone says it. But I do agree that Byakuya could not have DEFEATED As Nodt with shikai. Had he not raised his bankai and gotten shocked that the seal was a stealing device, he wouldn't have lowered his guard and been pierced with the fear thorns so readily. And even if he had, he proved he had the capacity to break free of As Nodt's fear power, by actually doing so, right before being struck with his own bankai. Had Byakuya remained in shikai, he wouldn't have DEFEATED As Nodt, but he would have held out as well as the other captains. The reason Soi Fon, Komamura and Hitsugaya didn't get trashed like Byakuya is because he was the only one shown conclusively being hit with his own power...several times, I might add. If RENJI was not overpowered instantly by As Nodt, despite not being able to hit him, then you can't argue that Byakuya would be. He would have held out for a time, then would have been beat up, like the others, but he would not have lost without actually being hit with his bankai.



    Quote Quote:
    As I have stated, the Fullbringers amounted to fodder. Ginjo, the leader, while relying on his Fullbring powers was easily dispatched by Ichigo in his Shikai. Byakuya was the only one who had trouble. Also your argument that "anyone with strong enough reiatsu to cut a Captain class opponent is relevant" is a flawed argument, when Shuhei actually cut a hollowfied Tosen.
    Ah, again you try to act like you know better than Bleach's own creator. Those 'fodder' are being carefully trained by Kukakku and their power wil be important in the war. Fodder? I think not! They were plenty powerful. Otherwise, why were the captains insistent that Ginjo had to die? Why even show up if they were insignificant? The whole thing with the substitute badge suggests they are far from insignificant.



    Quote Quote:
    No you simply don't understand my argument. I will give you an example. When Byakuya fought Yammy the damage from SKY was minor. So even if he attacked him continuously it would arguably take a long time to defeat him while trying to remain unharmed himself. My point is this; If the damage from his Bankai was so minor, the fact his Shikai is 5 - 10 times weaker, the damage would be close to nonexistent, even overtime as you say.
    How many times do you need to be told? That was a b@@@@ slap, not a serious hit. They were knocking Yammy aside so they could beat up on each other. Don't read so much into a non-serious potshot.


    Quote Quote:
    If Byakuya's Shikai is worth noting why did he opt to use his Bankai when finishing off Renji?
    If you paid attention, you would know he did it because Renji refused to back down. He had plenty of means to defeat Renji without bankai, but served it up because Renji defied him. Are you really suggesting that Renji could defeat him, even sans bankais? REALLY?

    Quote Quote:
    In his fight with Ichigo, Shikai Ichigo easily overpowered his Shikai with GT.
    That's not actually true. They were roughly even. And Ichigo was being overpowered until he hollowfied. Stop making things up.



    Quote Quote:
    In his fight with Zommari, with Gokei not killing him, what would Byakuya's Shikai do?
    That, in conjunction with Byakuya's other well rounded skills would have defeated Zommari anyway. Byakuya went bankai without bothering with shikai, because, as shown CLEARLY in the manga and even drawn attention to during that part, he pissed Byakuya off by attacking an already incapacitated Rukia, just as Renji pissed him off and earned a bankai shot by being defiant. Byakuya OFTEN uses more power than he needs to (**GANJU**) for emotional reasons. Despite his denial that he is emotionally driven, his actions clearly point to that as his reason for occasional overkill. It fits well with his personality, being one who was, as a child, highly volatile. The volatility is still there. It just comes out in his fighting.

    I have seen a lot of your posts regarding Byakuya, where you mock him as a fighter. You consistently overlook clear evidence that he is one of the more powerful captains and misstate 'evidence' to try to 'prove' your point. Realize that your perspective is just one angle and that others are just as valid. If this thread is truly supposed to be friendly to all points of view, you shouldn't be so intolerant, just because you don't like the character. Again, sorry for jumping in uninvited, but you were getting on my nerves bashing other people's perspectives and sounding like yours was fact.

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    Re: Ranking of Captains - No Bankai

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird0ne View Post
    How many times do you need to be told? That was a b@@@@ slap, not a serious hit. They were knocking Yammy aside so they could beat up on each other. Don't read so much into a non-serious potshot.
    It's funny how you always argued about it, and now you consider it "b@@@@ slap" and call it irrelevant. What's relevant is SKY barely scratched Yammy, and simple pressure of Kenpachi's sword was enough to send his jaw flying. Or you want to say, that Kenpachi was serious, and Byakuya was not, and can prove it? Or you won't prove anything, as it failed numerous times, and you'll just call it "non-serious potshot"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird0ne View Post
    That's not actually true. They were roughly even. And Ichigo was being overpowered until he hollowfied. Stop making things up.
    And you should start reading carefully. SHIKAI. Shikai Ichigo vs Shikai Byakuya. No Hollowfication, that happenned in Bankai fight. GT from Ichigo overpowered Byakuya's shikai easily, Byakuya went Bankai soon after. Even in Bankai Ichigo wasn't being overpowered. He could kill Byakuya twice, but didn't want to. That's what Byakuya was worth. Even when Byakuya was trying, he still lost to Ichigo and survived only because Ichigo talked before he made a slash. Then, when fight went for a while, Tensa Zangetsu's strain on Ichigo's body made him slower. That's why Byakuya could match Ichigo suddenly.





    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird0ne View Post
    That, in conjunction with Byakuya's other well rounded skills would have defeated Zommari anyway. Byakuya went bankai without bothering with shikai, because, as shown CLEARLY in the manga and even drawn attention to during that part, he pissed Byakuya off by attacking an already incapacitated Rukia, just as Renji pissed him off and earned a bankai shot by being defiant.
    Which part of him going Bankai is relevant? The point was: 1,000,000 blades at once from Gokei couldn't kill Zommari, what would 1,000 blades do? Tickle? And you answer with "HE WENT BANKAI BUT HE COULD WIN WITH SHIKAI". Okay, we don't care. Entirely missing the point. Start reading carefully, please. Or you purposefully ignored the point, said "he would win anyway", not wanting to discuss Gokei and Shikai.

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  14. #358
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity jaymizzo's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanadan View Post
    On Shinji, Byakuya has a pesky bankai for him. It covers such a large area and all of it is in danger of being hit. I don't know how much he registers when it hits but if he knows what hits his opponent then Shinjis Bankai is kind of.....redundant vs Byakuya.
    We dont know Shinjis Bankai...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    I don't really get why Shinji is so overrated. Actually compared to other Vaizard Captains his Shikai powers seem the less impressive. Even his overall Shinigami and Hollow powers seem less impressive than either Kensei's, Love's or Rose's. Heck, even Hachi impressed me more than he did.

    And well, why Vaizards are put over Byakuya? Maybe because none of them needed even Shikai during the War, while Byakuya stated that he needed Bankai in order to defeat Aes Nodt who didn't even use his Vollstaendig?
    Without him explaining how everything works, I highly doubt a lot of the captains bar Aizen and Urahara would have deduced so quickly how to counter it. Hell, it took Aizen a second or two before he realised what was going on.

    How do his Hollow powers and Shinigami powers seem less impressive than the others? Please elaborate.

    The reason we put some of the Vizards above Byakuya is because we know that they are already strong and on top of that we know Hollowfication gives quite a good boost in abilities. Also add to that the fact that most of them have faced opponents stronger than what Byakuya has gone up against (forget the quincies atm, we know very little about the ranking)

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird0ne View Post
    I agree. Shinji does seem exceptionally powerful and on a level to challenge Byakuya, but the others just did not look that impressive.
    He is far past the level of challenging Byakuya.

    Quote Quote:
    It can't be assumed simply because Ichigo easily slashed Byakuya in hollowfied form, that all of the vizards fight at that level. That makes too big an assumption.
    No, Hollow Ichigo stomped Byakuya. Not just slashed, Byakuya was not gong to live had the hollow gone on.

    And how can that not be assumed? Makes sense, considering they fought a being that Byakuya could not keep up with and they did so effortlessly.

    Oh and dont forget, Shinji was about to force Grimmjow to release without even using his Shikai...

    Quote Quote:
    Ichigo is far removed from a normal shimgami, and the other vizards are, as Aizen put it, failed experiments, while Aizen sees Ichigo much differently. I think vizard ability does amplify a shinigami's power. However, for the other vizards to be stronger than Byakuya, they would have to have begun with power on the level of Ichigo's.
    So because Aizen calls them failed experiments then they are supposed to be weak? The Hollowfication DOES amplify ones abilities.

    So what you are saying is, the Vizard captains were weaker than Ichigo when he was in SS? Ok.

    Quote Quote:
    We already know that Ichigo's power is not like a normal shinigami's. Therefore, it can't be assumed just because they are vizards that they are stronger than Byakuya.
    Ichigos power in those instances followed the same protocol. Like we saw in TBTP the Vizards went through similar staged of Hollowfication (aside from the initial Hollowfication when Ichigo was training with Urahara)

    The bottom line is, the Vizard captains handled Ichigo hollowfied and fought stronger opponent(s) than Byakuya did.

    Quote Quote:
    I have seen that some people have brought up that the vizards took turns fighting Ichigo in his vizard training, but I would argue that while Byakuya was taken by complete surprise when Ichigo hollowfied, they had the advantage of knowing exactly what was coming.
    They had no idea what was coming. They knew that Ichigos hollow was going to be strong but non of them knew just by how much.

    Hiyori was caught by surprise when she tried to force Ichigo into using Bankai and his hollow stomped her. Later, they brought out that same hollow inorder to help Ichigo control it. The Vizards were going in just as blind as Byakuya was. Hell, Ichigos hollow was becoming more and more complete (in that instance) as the fight progressed.

    Quote Quote:
    Add to that the fact that Byakuya had been on the verge of finishing Ichigo and had no reason to expect him to be able to move, much less attack and you see it wasn't about Byakuya's strength as much as the element of surprise and the fact that, unlike the vizards, he had no concept of what he was fighting.
    Byakuya was only going to finish Ichigo off because of the situation Ichigo was in. His body was not responding to him and his inexperience in Bankai was crushing his bones making him slower. It took a lot to happen to Ichigo for Byakuya to finally keep up with him in the end.

    Quote Quote:
    The vizards were not trying to kill Ichigo, but to control, so they were defending...much easier to do since they were evading, while Byakuya was still trying to counterattack. The whole style of fighting was different in the two cases, so they aren't really a good comparison.
    They were fighting for their survival as much as to help Ichigo control his hollow. Shinji did say that if it comes down to it and Ichigo is not victorious, they would have to kill him.

    You do realize that fighting to kill is much easier than trying to defend yourself from something that is trying to kill you right?

    Quote Quote:
    While Shinji certainly would be a tough opponent for Byakuya, I don't see any of the rest being at that level.
    Shinji would be a nightmare for Byakuya.

    ---------- Post added at 09:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:40 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird0ne View Post
    Byakuya easily cut As Nodt in shikai.
    Read

    Quote Quote:
    He went bankai as a way to gain information for soul society about what the shinigamis mistakenly thought was a bankai seal.
    No he did not, he went Bankai because he believed he needed it to fight Nodt

    Quote Quote:
    Had he stayed in shikai, he would not have fallen easy prey to As Nodt. I say that because, in addition to cutting him in shikai, he did actually break through the fear attack. And as for As Nodt going Vollstandig?
    No, he managed to withstand the effects for a certain time before succumbing to it. He did not break through the fear ability. However, that is not the reason he lost.

    Quote Quote:
    Only one even looked like they did.
    How does one look like they used Volstandig? Please elaborate.

    Quote Quote:
    There wasn't much time, as the initial attack was over too quickly. If not crushed by his own bankai, there's every reason to believe he would have fared as well as the other captains.
    How did you come to this conclusion? Did you consider the fact that as the fight went on Byakuya did nothing to Nodt in Shikai or the fact that the current Bankai-less captains got wrecked by the SRs?

    Take your pick.

    Quote Quote:
    Also, we did not even see who the vizards faced. As Sanadan said, they could have been crap fighters, for all we know. You can't conclude anything based on that.
    The SR are considered to be captain class or above and the order was to ruin SS. Bach would not let weaklings fight captains when he wanted most if not all of them dead.

    And one other thing, if you are so willing to believe that the others faced crap fighters, why is it so hard for you to believe that Nodt might have been the weakest SR?
    Last edited by jaymizzo; October 17, 2013 at 09:59 AM.
    "Man hands misery onto man" - Philip Larkin

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  16. #359
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Ranking of Captains - No Bankai

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird0ne View Post
    Sorry to jump in uninvited, but you are absolutely off course here. Byakuya wasn't attacking Mask, he was placing his petals between the guy and Renji. He wasn't trying to cut him, but was defending his vice captain.
    I agree he was protecting his VC. But we can also see that Mask connected with with his Shikai.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird0ne View Post
    As I said, Byakuya wasn't attacking him at all, just getting his petals in between Renji and Mask to protect Renji. And they looked pretty darned significant to me. Blood was erupting from them in good supply.
    He had small cuts. His hand wasn't impaired, maimed or in bad condition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird0ne View Post
    See above...and since when does an enemy's bluster count as fact? Many characters misstate, overstate or understate. You can't call that fact, 'just cause he said so.' But, nice try!
    Do you even know what I am arguing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird0ne View Post
    Again, you automatically believe it just because he said that. And maybe with some it's true. But it's not proven, nor known fact. Look at another 'fact' Byakuya and the others stated. They stated that the medallion sealed bankai. That was erroneous, as could be anything characters SAY. It isn't necessarily fact because someone says it. But I do agree that Byakuya could not have DEFEATED As Nodt with shikai. Had he not raised his bankai and gotten shocked that the seal was a stealing device, he wouldn't have lowered his guard and been pierced with the fear thorns so readily. And even if he had, he proved he had the capacity to break free of As Nodt's fear power, by actually doing so, right before being struck with his own bankai. Had Byakuya remained in shikai, he wouldn't have DEFEATED As Nodt, but he would have held out as well as the other captains. The reason Soi Fon, Komamura and Hitsugaya didn't get trashed like Byakuya is because he was the only one shown conclusively being hit with his own power...several times, I might add. If RENJI was not overpowered instantly by As Nodt, despite not being able to hit him, then you can't argue that Byakuya would be. He would have held out for a time, then would have been beat up, like the others, but he would not have lost without actually being hit with his bankai.
    Byakuya says that he can't defeat the SR without Bankai. On what grounds would you question this? He hasn't defeated anyone without his Bankai.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird0ne View Post
    Ah, again you try to act like you know better than Bleach's own creator. Those 'fodder' are being carefully trained by Kukakku and their power wil be important in the war. Fodder? I think not! They were plenty powerful. Otherwise, why were the captains insistent that Ginjo had to die? Why even show up if they were insignificant? The whole thing with the substitute badge suggests they are far from insignificant.
    They lasted seconds against the Captains. Even Ginjo. Byakuya is the only exception. Ichigo defeated Ginjo in Shikai, Toshiro defeated Yukio in Shikai, Kenpachi one shotted Girinnjo, Ikkaku defeated Moe with his bare hands. Also Renji defeated Jackie with a sealed sword. Again nothing suggests they are not fodder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird0ne View Post
    How many times do you need to be told? That was a b@@@@ slap, not a serious hit. They were knocking Yammy aside so they could beat up on each other. Don't read so much into a non-serious potshot.
    I missed where that was stated in the manga, can you link the panel please?

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird0ne View Post
    If you paid attention, you would know he did it because Renji refused to back down. He had plenty of means to defeat Renji without bankai, but served it up because Renji defied him. Are you really suggesting that Renji could defeat him, even sans bankais? REALLY?
    Renji at the that time wasn't close to Byakuya. I am remarking upon his relying on his Bankai to teach Renji a lesson. He was even holding back, so surely it would of made sense to just use Shikai considering he didn't want to kill him. Yet throughout the fight his Shikai did nothing to Renji.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird0ne View Post
    That's not actually true. They were roughly even. And Ichigo was being overpowered until he hollowfied. Stop making things up.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ap5sOGZq07E

    Watch 1.05 - 1.45. Byakuya's Shikai doesn't even stand a chance. It breaks through his Shikai and actually wounds Byakuya. It most certainly wasn't even. I think your the one making things up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird0ne View Post
    That, in conjunction with Byakuya's other well rounded skills would have defeated Zommari anyway. Byakuya went bankai without bothering with shikai, because, as shown CLEARLY in the manga and even drawn attention to during that part, he pissed Byakuya off by attacking an already incapacitated Rukia, just as Renji pissed him off and earned a bankai shot by being defiant. Byakuya OFTEN uses more power than he needs to (**GANJU**) for emotional reasons. Despite his denial that he is emotionally driven, his actions clearly point to that as his reason for occasional overkill. It fits well with his personality, being one who was, as a child, highly volatile. The volatility is still there. It just comes out in his fighting.
    Again, read my previous posts. I am not stating Byakuya would of lost to Zommari.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird0ne View Post
    I have seen a lot of your posts regarding Byakuya, where you mock him as a fighter. You consistently overlook clear evidence that he is one of the more powerful captains and misstate 'evidence' to try to 'prove' your point. Realize that your perspective is just one angle and that others are just as valid. If this thread is truly supposed to be friendly to all points of view, you shouldn't be so intolerant, just because you don't like the character. Again, sorry for jumping in uninvited, but you were getting on my nerves bashing other people's perspectives and sounding like yours was fact.
    I have nothing personal against Byakuya, I actually like him. I just don't get the hype. How am I being intolerant? I have said you can say things that are biased e.g you saying his Shikai was even to Ichigo's when that's clearly not the case. I think the argument that Byakuya isn't one of the stronger Captains is a sound one. There is not much proof to the contrary.
    Last edited by vanyar; October 17, 2013 at 11:15 AM.

  17. #360
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Sanadan's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    True, I forgot how powerful shinjis shikai was
    Meh

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