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Translations: Gintama 515 by kewl0210
It is a feat when you consider the claims you're trying to make. You're implying that Byakuya's Shikai is weak because when he blocked Mask it didn't injure him.Originally Posted by vanyar
And I'm glad you maintained that terrible logic: http://www.mangapanda.com/94-751-19/...apter-297.html
Kenpachi did the same damn thing with his Shikai, against a fraccion and didn't injure him. Just like how Byakuya didn't injure Mask.
That means his shikai is weak if we're using the same logic that you're trying to use to make Byakuya look inferior. Which comes back to the whole "You're using double standards to make Byakuya look weaker than he actually is" claim.
That's bull. Mask has been proven to be an idiot. He was tricked by falling (continuously) down a crushed floor that Byakuya prepared. He also didn't read the Daten that explained how more than captains can use bankai. Multiple times in one appearance he's been shown to be short on the uptake, but you expect me to believe he knew more about captain level strength than As Nodt does?Quote:
As Nodt was suprised because he had been tanking shikai attacks from Renji already, so he expected Byakuya's shikai attack to do nothing to him. On the contrary, it shredded his Blut easily. So easily it made Mask think that it was a mistake in As Nodt's judgement. You're wrong. Again.
You're not qualified to decide what's a sound argument, as you've yet to produce one of your own.Quote:
Byakuya said that Sternritter can't be defeated with Shikai. Not that they can't be injured. You asked me to prove Byakuya can injure someone with his shikai. Didn't even ask me to prove that he can injure them significantly. I went above and beyond what you expected, and now it's panic mode: re-write the manga for your argument's sake.
Ichigo claimed he should've used Bankai so that he could flee from SKY, not tank it. Has absolutely NOTHING to do with the power of the attack.Quote:
Byakuya hit Yammi once, with the least distructive of his Bankai forms. As I've said.
He hit Zommari with Gokei, once. It crippled him to the point where he couldn't fight back.
He couldn't defeat Tsukishima with SKY because he couldn't touch an opponent who knew how all of his attacks worked.
My argument is foolproof because once again you're looking at end results, and not what leads to the end results. You think that as long as you don't pay attention to what happens in the manga, no one will catch on. You're not THAT lucky.
Oh? Look at the scan again.Quote:
Everyone else. Literally everyone else. In every fight he's ever been in where he has struck the opponent with his Bankai, his assault ends after one strike. We know that he's not limited to one strike. Not only can he strike multiple times, he can also make use of more destructive forms. But he doesn't.Quote:
Wrong. Byakuya was going to rip Renji's bankai apart with his shikai alone, but Renji, fearing Senbonzakura's power, intentionally seperated his bankai so that it could dodge the blades from his Senbonzakura. Byakuya opted to use bankai in the end because his objective was to destroy Renji's will completely. To pound him into submission rather than just incapacitating him. If it was about power to defeat him, when he paralyzed him with Rikujyokoro he could have simply blasted him with a kidou.Quote:
You say that as if Getsuga Tenshou is a weak attack.Quote:
The exact same thing: destroy all of his eyes, allowing him to one-shot him with a single sword strike. Zommari only had 50 eyes that can use Amor. Byakuya's Senbonzakura creates 1000 blades. He can't possibly block them all with only 50 eyes. Not to mention, the fact that his sealed sword could bisect him so easily is proof enough that shikai could hurt him as easily.Quote:
SKY did minor damage because Byakuya only hit him once.Quote:
I didn't state that Tsukishima overpowered his shikai. I said that Byakuya's shikai was strong enough to block an attack that was powerful enough to injure a captain class opponent.Quote:
Yeah, everything you've said has been refuted ad nauseum up above. We're done.Quote:
Last edited by ninjabot; October 18, 2013 at 12:34 AM.
I actually said tens of times that I agree with Aizen saying that Shinji's Shikai is a child's game. Every Shinigami Captain (maybe except for Kenpachi, since he is weak in sensing Reiatsu) is capable of feeling their opponent through his Reiatsu and they can also feel Reiatsu attacks and from where they come from. It was shown tons of times in the manga. So Shinji's Shikai won't affect any relevant opponent with the exception of the situations, when it is a team fight, when you have to fight several Captain level opponents alone.Quote:
Also, if Shinji's Shikai is as good as most of his fans claim, then why didn't he use it in order to take down even one Quincy in the War? Maybe because it is overrated?
What did he show in regards of Hollow powers that would exceed any other Vaizard? He didn't get much boost in terms of physical capabilities compared to Kensei, Mashiro or Love. He didn't get a long time Mask like Mashiro or Ichigo, when he defeated Grimjaw, so I would say he actually doesn't impress me in any Hollow aspect.Quote:
Also Shinji doesn't have any serious offensive moves. His only one is Cero and it isn't really impressive one, so I don't actually get why Shinji is ranked high and the thing that surprises me even more is that most of the forum members actually rate him above other Vaizard Captains who actually have stronger Hollowfication and quite impressive set of offensive moves in their Shikai.
Well, I actually put all the Vaizard Captains above Byakuya even as Shinigami and with Hollowfication they should win against him for the most part. Though I think that Shinji would be the best opponent for Byakuya, since he doesn't have any serious offensive techs. His only one is Cero and compared to Byakuya's Bankai it doesn't seem that great. Though we don't know anything about Shinji's Bankai, so with it he might overpower Byakuya. The problem is we don't know of it yet, so we can't consider it as a factor.Quote:
Secondly, it's not terrible logic, the way the blades are used doesn't change the fact that they can cut you. Even in the case of defense. If it wasn't true Byakuya wouldn't need a safe zone, would he?
Regarding Yammy, the point wasn't to argue that SKY was the most destructive, the point was to make a comparison for his Shikai. Which is significantly weaker. I asked you if SKY did such minor damage, even overtime, what could his Shikai do? and you completely evaded the question.
Gokei was a continuous attack. It spun around and around, continuously. Then collapses in on itself. Also, to say that Zommari could not fight back after is just wrong. He still fought, he used Amor afterwards and again you evaded the question.
Tsukishima, while knowing how Byakuya's abilities worked, still had no physical power ups. You keep missing this point.
There is no evidence that Tsukishima was physically superior, or any Fullbringer for that matter. I have already given you the evidence, the Fullbringers didn't come close to the Captains in Shikai. Byakuya was the only exception.
You have refuted nothing, you have evaded questions, purposely twisted words to suit your argument. Despite this, you have not offered anything that suggests Byakuya's Shikai is in anyway significant.
Actualy as much As Iagree that Byakuya isn't oh so strong, because well...he isn't this is actualy irrelevant. He used just a "few" out of millions blades of his Bankai. Zaraki is supose to be as strong as captain in bankai with simple slashes of his sword so his simple sword slash should do more damage than just a halfarsed attack from a bankai. Even As Nodt used like 10 times as many blades on Byakuya than Byakuya used on Yammi.... Al in all this of course proves nothing besides the fact that Byakuya is just a captain, just like the old Keny and many othersQuote:
Not everyone have powers like Aizen who have just sword slashes. There certainly some characters who could just use their power as more of an AoE.... Even a good kido user should make the work more difficult for shinhi. Also a super high level inteligence really isnt needed to figure out Shinji's shikai. Good perception yes and ofcourse the ability to control yourself and not act based on what you see....Quote:
As for Shinji in comparsion to other Visored I don't think that any of them showed anything impresive so I don't really see how Shinji can be see as some boss in comparsion
Of course the Visoreds are stronger than Byakuya its simple logic... They live for like twice as long as Byakuya the had more tme to train their Zans and they are yet to show their full power.... As long as Kubo won't give Byakuya some super powerup which can happen dur to Byakuyas insane popularit than there is no reason for him to be stronger than Visoreds
However I don;t get why people bring the hollowfication up.... Its works only for a few minutes and onece its over the user are so out of stamina that they can't do s**t.... It can be pretty much really used as a surprise attack at the rightt moment... at the begining of the fight.... or well idk.... It can't really be used when the Visoreds are already tired..... I don't see it as much of a help. For Shinji is some help sice his abilities aren't power based so he may really need that boost if he fights with some opponent that have a good power based ability that can make it troblesome for shinji to get close
I wouldn't say so.... The only time when Byakuya really couldn't keep up with Ichigo's speed was one when he did not know what's comming at the begining of the bankai and was all like "Its can't be Bankai" so we wasn't really focused and the second time he was surprised that Ichigo can also slash at the super high speed..... So the only moments when he couldn't follow was whn he wasn't focused.... I think that every captain would follow Ichigo just finn as long as their focused on him... they may have some problems with hiting him or with fullu dodging his attacks, but thats all. Its always easier to fight when you are no't surprised about what your opponent can doQuote:
The weakest don;t get so much focus and don't get big panels at the begining of an invasion..... Strong people are usualy showed in Bleach near the begining of an arc, but we don't know who is the strongest..... of course not always all of the strongest are always shoed, but weak certainly are notQuote:
1000+(because we don't really know how many blades Byakuya have in Shikai... not the poing of cours... of course Shikai woldn't do much.... If Byakuya knows some 80+ hado and can use it at high level than he could do something with no Bnakia.... iirrelevenQuote:
What I wan't to point out is that your statement is a little false.....You said 1.000.000 becsuse you assume that he have 1.000.000 in his BK he most likely has even more, but the point is by no logic can he actualy hit his opponent with all of those.... its simply impossible
Last edited by ReiWen; October 19, 2013 at 09:42 AM.
Byakuya is among the strongest all-round shinigami, I'd say. He's smart, fast, can use kido, and has a very strong bankai. I think if there were some sort of ranking, he'd probably be top 5-ish. I'd put him and Kenpachi just outside of guys like Shunsui, Shinji and Ukitake for the moment. But their potential for growth is probably greater.
Byakuya is smart. Okay. Because we all know Komamura, Shunsui, Juushiro, Soifon, Shinji, Love, Rose, Mayuri (especially) are complete idiots. Anything other than his composure, that makes him smart? Any smart move? Any smart line?
Byakuya is fast. Really? In which fight did he show that amazing speed? He knows Yoruichi's techniques, but he can't hope to match half of her speed. He can't match Ichigo's normal speed back in SS. He mastered Shunpo techniques, but he's not fast.
Byakuya can use KidoOf course he can, he graduated from that damn academy. Every shinigami can. Soifon mastered both Kido and Hakuda. Byakuya's not a specialist in Kido. Four year old kicking his dog isn't kung fu master, is he? Using Kido doesn't make him strong Kido user. It makes him someone who has to use Kido.
Byakuya has a very strong Bankai Thaaaat is shown to be pretty weak, in comparison to other Bankais. Hell, it looks weak even if we compare it to Shinji's, Shunsui's or Ukitake's Shikai. And Kenpachi's practice slash. Hitsugaya one-shot #3, Byakuya couldn't kill Zommari (#7) with Gokei.
We don't know how many blades were there (didn't really see any other blades NOT on Yammy's face). Bigger number of blades wouldn't really matter, as SKY's penetrative force was simply shitty. 100,000,000 wouldn't change the outcome that much. They barely scratched Yammy's skin, Still a loooong way to go to send his jaw flying. SKY seems like a sandstorm to me. It'll hurt if you don't wear anything, but once you get some clothes it's nothin'.Quote:
Not really. It was like this:Quote:
[Ichigo has his sword at Byakuya's throat]
[Ichigo backs off]
Byakuya: What happenned? I couldn't react! This was just a fluke, it WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN, I KNOW THAT YOU ARE FAST, BUT I'M FASTER!
Ichigo: Oh really?
[Byakuya tries to catch Ichigo, commanding SKY with his hands, with FULL speed, which is NOT enough to catch Ichigo]
[Ichigo outruns Byakuya and is at his back, chooses not to kill him]
Ichigo: It was a fluke too, huh?
Byakuya knew he can die if he drops his guard down from the first attack. But he still got caught. Amazed at his slashes speed? Really? He couldn't follow him with his eyes at all.
As Nodt was shown because Byakuya was needed to go down, so he could go to Royal Palace. It doesn't make As Nodt strong at all. As's screentime was caused by Byakuya's screentime, that's all.Quote:
We don't know if Byakuya has 1000 blades in Shikai? I'm pretty sure we do, I'm too lazy to look for it, though. Bleach wiki says 1 thousand, it's enough for now. And It's NOT relevant to the point at all. It's just comparison between Bankai and Shikai. 80+ Hado (has he EVER showed such a Hado?) is irrelevant, yeah.Quote:
You have to remember that Shinji is quite fast and is among the top captains, add to that his Hollowfication and you have quite a handful. His Shikai is very tricky and again, without prior knowledge, it is nearly impossible to deduce what is happening around you because you actually do not know what his Shikai is nor do you know how it affects you (similar to how Aizens KS is practically impossible to understand if he does not explain it to you). You could probably defend some attacks but it is hard to go against your natural reactions/instincts. You would most likely block right if you are attacked right etc
About the bolded part, realize that there is/was only two people who defeated SRs who are pure Shinigami, Yama and Kenpachi, the rest did close to nothing. So saying that because Shinji did not take anyone out makes his Shikai weak is the same as saying Kyouraku etc have unimpressive Shikais... Which is wrong.
Actually, the difference between his base and Hollowfied form have been shown already. When he was fighting Grimmjow he was on the defensive and not taking that much damage while at the same time holding him out. When he donned his mask he forced Grimmjow to want to release and that was even before he used his ShikaiQuote:
His Cero managed to also force Grimmjow to counter it with his own inorder to reduce the damage, which... he still receieved (atleast some of it) and Grimmjow is no weakling.
Whose other Cero among the Vizards has been more impressive may i ask? In base form atleast.Quote:
Saying he doesn't have and he hasn't shown are two different things. I dont understand where you get the notion that his Cero is not impressive.Quote:
Also, consider what you are comparing to, a Base Hollowfied Shinjis Cero to a Bankai Byakuya. The fact that you would call that a good match up should really tell you something.
Last edited by jaymizzo; October 21, 2013 at 05:05 AM.
In terms of offensive abilities, Shinji is one of the strongest IMO. Cero, that even after being weakened still trashed Grimmjow isn't enough? He doesn't really need anything else. His physical abilities+Sakanade are enough. He took off his mask before fighting Aizen. (I wonder why. to make Aizen lose his confidence in ability, Kyoka Suigetsu by losing against normal Shinigami in that regard?). If he used it through their fight I think even Aizen wouldn't be able to win. Figuring his ability is one thing, sorting this out in his head against Hollowfied Shinji is the second. And considering Shinji's and Byakuya's performance against Hollow Ichigo, Byakuya stops to be Shinji's match when the latter puts on his mask. Sakanade wouldn't really work on him I guess. He can attack in 2 opposite directions without problem. But Cero would overpower SKY easily, and Shinji should be much faster than Base Ichigo when Hollowfied.
Last edited by Duniak; October 21, 2013 at 10:18 AM.
I think byakuya is pretty decent, but I would still rank him in the "second lvl" of captains. The first lvl would be, for example, Shunsui and Unohana.
Well, now that Renji has begun to 'show off his stuff', I think it's time to revive this thread. With Renji and Rukia going to save the collective butts of the not-so-powerful-as-some-people-thought vizards, Byakuya isn't going to be far behind. And judging by the example Renji set, I think it's no longer dreaming to think that good ol' Byakuya is going to be right up there with the likes of his dear frenemy (who may not have gotten a RR powerup, but did become THE Kenpachi) Zaraki! And for those ranking the vizards higher than him in the rankings, from the poor showing they made (Shinji didn't even last as long as Byakuya did against As Nodt AND he went down in one hit as opposed to staying on his feet after being hit with several enemy attacks AND his own bankai. And although Kensei and Rose both went all out and had impressive fights, they lost to the guy who sucker-punched and is going to now get his butt kicked by RENJI?) It's not out of line to say now that Byakuya was on or above the level of the vizards. And if his power wasn't more before, it sure as heck is going to be now!
Yes, Byakuya is going to be a reiatsu wielding nightmare, as befits the greatest leader in the history of the greatest noble clan (See, I went there, my dear friend, Duniak! ). But then, Kubo hardly would have built the first two arcs (and the undisputed best fight in Bleach) based on Ichigo's confrontation with a 'weak' or 'mid-tier' (LOL) captain! Byakuya was already powerful, and now he is going to be a quincy's worst nightmare (not as much as Ichigo, but definitely up there. Hey, they can't ALL be the main character, right?)
Anyway, I am really excited to see Byakuya arrive and show these quincies the way back to the shadows they came from!
You were the one who claimed that Yammi was "unphased" by Byakuya's attack because it was only a scratch he recieved... and that Mask was unphased because he wasn't bleeding on his hand...but somehow Kenpachi causes a bit of smoke and it actually counts?Originally Posted by vanyar
Yes, he would, because the safe zone is to protect against blades that are moving at high speeds. Speed+mass=force. If the blades were sitting still there wouldn't need to be a safe zone because the damage would be neglegable.Quote:
Byakuya, with his Shikai, has successfully:Quote:
Scared Renji into breaking apart his bankai to avoid being struck directly with it, for fear of the damage it would do to his BANKAI
Torn As Nodt's Blut (which was previously strong enough to block Byakuya's sealed sword)
Blocked a punch from the recently-revealed-to-be-a-powerhouse Mask
Your claim is baseless. Absolutely baseless.
Use common sense: WHY did he say this?Quote:
That never happened. Ichigo blew away Byakuya's petals with Getsuga Tenshou. That in no way invalidates the power of Byakuya's shikai, because GT is a one-off technique. He can't maintain it the way Byakuya can continuously attack with his shikai. Ichigo blindsided him the moment he released. Byakuya wasn't even ready. That's why Ichigo deliberately missed because it was, as they say: a bitch move (shoot a man while he's drawing his sword? Bitch move).Quote:
He intentionally seperated his Bankai after because he wanted to avoid having his bankai shattered by the Shikai. This is while Byakuya is still in the air, holding the bankai at bay with his sealed zanpakuto.Quote:
He released it, and prepared to serrate Renji's bankai with his Shikai, but Renji seperated his own bankai to avoid having that happened.
Once again you pretend not to have seen what happened for fear of realizing Byakuya's actual strength.
I didn't avoid it, I answered it. You're just trying to put something on the page so it looks like you're arguing back. There's never been an instance in the manga where two opponents fought who were comperable in power and their shikai was completely incapable of doing damage.Quote:
No it wasn't! It's not continuous unless it hits the foe continuously, lmao It spun around in order to box Leroux in, and then it enclosed onto him, striking him ONCE. Granted, it was thousands of blades and thus thousands of strikes, but each blade only hit ONCE.Quote:
No wonder you can't comprehend the power of his Bankai, you don't know what the hell's happening when it's being used.
And see, when we say Byakuya could still fight after his fight with Ichigo, you claim he couldn't (despite the fact that he could still shunpo AND outrun Shinsou, while also tanking it). But I claim that Zommari couldn't fight back despite being able to use Amor and you change your tune, because you couldn't miss an opporunity to downplay Byakuya again. You're too transparent to be taken seriously.
I have missed nothing. What physical powerups does a character need when they've already revealed the ability to injure captain class opponents? None. No power ups.Quote:
Yep. He wouldn't have defeated him as quickly because he only would've jabbed out his eyes and did neglegable damage. He still would need to finish him off with a few more stabs.Quote:
Unless you believe that Byakuya's shikai is too weak to stab out someone's eyeball, in which case you lose all credibility right here, right now.
And if you are, then you should never have an opinion about power levels ever again. Even KENPACHI stated that he never met a man that was so powerful he could take a stab to the eye and go unphased.
Shinji didn't do better than Byakuya did in Shikai based on the simple fact that Byakuya was fighting against a power 5 to 10 times more powerful than what he had in his own employ, was hit consecutively, and continued fighting. Shinji was hit once, and was defeated by an attack who's destructive force we can't guage.Quote:
It's completely incomparable to what happened with Shinji because Sakanade's ability isn't the least bit comparable to Bambietta's Volstandig ability. One is offensive, the other is supplimentary. Not to mention we've absolutely no way to guage how much of a boost a Sternritter gains in Volstandig, whereas we do know how much power a Shinigami potentially gains from going from Shikai to Bankai.
And how can you claim that Shinji didn't need to resort to bankai, when his shikai didn't get the job done? You can only claim he didn't need it if he managed to succeed without it.
And he did the opposite of succeeding. He was one-shot.
One more massive flaw here is that you're attempting to claim that Volstandig>Bankai, when Bankai actually has a quantifiable number to guage while Volstandig doesn't.
On the contrary. The fact that he needed such a substancial boost in the first place is testament to how outrageously... terrifyingly powerful As Nodt is. It's also inaccurate to claim he needed it anyway, when he displayed the ability to injure As Nodt without his Bankai. Using Bankai isn't the same thing as needing it.Quote:
Basically, As Nodt and Byakuya were borderline equals (proven by the fact that while he was in Shikai he was able to overcome his Blut, aswell as block Mask's punch, who has been revealed to be a powerhouse). Byakuya, with his Bankai, and without his will being weakened, would have defeated Nodt (not easily mind you, since As Nodt is a beast) thanks to his power being increased 5 to 10 times with his Bankai.
Unfortunately, his Bankai was taken from him and thus, the boost gained from it was too. So his power went back down to shikai levels while As Nodt's power potentially went up the same amount Byakuya's had prior (5 to 10 times). This is why Byakuya and Shinji's fights aren't comparable. Shinji wasn't fighting against an opponent with a confirmed 5 to 10 times increase in power over himself. Nor was that opponent ruining Shinji's ability to fight by breaking his resolve with fear-inducing illusions. Nor were there base levels revealed to be comperable in any capacity.