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Thread: How strong is Byakuya?

  1. #466
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak
    His own sword isn't enough, his own cutting power isn't enough. Not to mention bigger sword is harder to dodge (if speed is the same), and more blades would create diversion. One simple sword would require him to fight in a normal sword battle. What is the point of abandoning your sword to get petals, just to make them into a sword again? His sword IS those petals. And to make his sword even more condensed than his normal sword and wave it around like a normal sword kinda kills the whole idea. He needs something he can control and something that can fight instead of him.
    His own sword isn't enough when it's sealed, I agree. But we're talking about taking the larger amount of petals gained from Shikai and Bankai, and then compressing them so that they're the size of his normal sword. What we would get is a basic zanpakuto with the power of a bankai. Perfect example? Zanka no Tachi. When Yamamoto takes all of that extra fire that comes with his bankai and then compresses it down into his sword. Boring it may be, but the point is in combat, sometimes you have to sacrifice versatility for sheer stopping power. It's the same idea behind Hakuteiken.

    Quote Quote:
    Senbonzakura armor means he IS in those petals. To use Shunpo he would have to jump with those petals. Petal propulsion? I don't think we've seen anyone who can do anything DURING their leap. Either he uses Shunpo, or he uses petals. And IF his Shunpo is faster, slower petals wouldn't make him any faster. Think for a moment. If they're slower, they'll be left behind. Even if they aren't left behind, which is illogical, how can something slower actually make you faster? If he moves with his petals, that are faster than last time I don't have any problems. But moving with petals and Shunpo, not possible IMO. It's not Hirenkyaku.
    Well shunpo is simply propelling yourself with reiatsu. The idea that one can't attack while shunpoing would mean that every shinigami in Bleach is so retarded that running and attacking is too complex for them to do. I don't believe that. I mean, people used to try to say that Byakuya couldn't move while using SKY, but he disproved that against Yammi. Byakuya propelling himself with SKY armor would be like... it'd be like wearing rocket boots, running at full speed, then turning them on.

    Likewise, you didn't answer the hypothetical that now that he has mastered his zanpakuto, it's potentially faster than it was before. Also, if his petals were initially fast enough to force Ichigo to have to deflect them rather than outrun them, how can you say that they're slower than his own shunpo, when Byakuya's shunpo was slower than Ichigo's? It went: Ichigo's shunpo>SKY>Byakuya's shunpo when it came to speed.


    Quote Originally Posted by kkck
    So even if the petals take the form of a normal sword the user still has the benefit of putting the entire power of a released sword into that. That is not something they could take advantage of with a normal sealed sword.
    My sentiments exactly. A lot of complex blade formations is cooler sure, but when it comes to sheer stopping power you don't really need that. You just need to put the power where it counts. And more often than not, that power is most needed at the end of a blade. Ichigo putting GT on the end of his sword for added attack power. Yamamoto taking all of his flames and compressing them into his blade. Byakuya using Hakuteiken. It all makes sense.

  2. #467
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    His own sword isn't enough when it's sealed, I agree. But we're talking about taking the larger amount of petals gained from Shikai and Bankai, and then compressing them so that they're the size of his normal sword. What we would get is a basic zanpakuto with the power of a bankai. Perfect example? Zanka no Tachi. When Yamamoto takes all of that extra fire that comes with his bankai and then compresses it down into his sword. Boring it may be, but the point is in combat, sometimes you have to sacrifice versatility for sheer stopping power. It's the same idea behind Hakuteiken.
    ZnT compressed flames and unleashed it on contact. SKY doesn't have anything like that.



    Quote Quote:
    Well shunpo is simply propelling yourself with reiatsu. The idea that one can't attack while shunpoing would mean that every shinigami in Bleach is so retarded that running and attacking is too complex for them to do. I don't believe that. I mean, people used to try to say that Byakuya couldn't move while using SKY, but he disproved that against Yammi. Byakuya propelling himself with SKY armor would be like... it'd be like wearing rocket boots, running at full speed, then turning them on.
    Well, Shunpo is not really running, more like dashing. During that dash you can't do anything. SKY armor would increase his base speed, he'd be much faster, but he wouldn't be able to dash with Shunpo.

    Quote Quote:
    Likewise, you didn't answer the hypothetical that now that he has mastered his zanpakuto, it's potentially faster than it was before. Also, if his petals were initially fast enough to force Ichigo to have to deflect them rather than outrun them, how can you say that they're slower than his own shunpo, when Byakuya's shunpo was slower than Ichigo's? It went: Ichigo's shunpo>SKY>Byakuya's shunpo when it came to speed.

    Why would I? It's pretty clear it is. I replied to the part that was relevant to the discussion. Even if petals are faster, propelling should be possible. I commented on possibility of those petals being faster.

    Quote Quote:
    If he moves with his petals, that are faster than last time I don't have any problems. But moving with petals and Shunpo, not possible IMO. It's not Hirenkyaku.
    As for SKY and Byakuya's Shunpo, there is a difference. SKY doesn't Shunpo. It's like comparing a kangaroo and a bike. Bike's speed is constant, and even if it's faster overally, kangaroo is faster during his leap. Kenpachi doesn't use Shunpo and he's fine.

  3. #468
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    ZNT does not release flames in contact. Thats what juhabach used to think it did and yamamoto made the point that it did not do that.
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...1-page-12.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...1-page-16.html

    In principle ZNT and hakuteiken are indeed similar, they concentrate the full might and volume of their respective powers into small and condensed forms.

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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    ZNT does not release flames in contact. Thats what juhabach used to think it did and yamamoto made the point that it did not do that.
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...1-page-12.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...1-page-16.html

    In principle ZNT and hakuteiken are indeed similar, they concentrate the full might and volume of their respective powers into small and condensed forms.
    And how do you think that something is eradicated into nothingness? Maybe I should say "It concentrates energy, and releases it, so it is eradicated into nothingness". Considering his power is flame, and ZnT is compressing those flames, it's the same as saying he releases those flames on contact. Unless his compressed flames that are on his blade are releasing something entirely different, that is not a flame. It's more refined, it uses up the amount of energy that's necessary, thus it doesn't burn or erupts, whole energy is concentrated to erase target's existence. (his Bankai 1000 years ago wasted lots of flames, so much for compression).


    Hakuteiken doesn't have anything like "what I touch disappears without a trace". The only thing they have in common is they compress one's energy.

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    My point was that yamamoto specifically said his bankai did not release flames when it came in contact with things. As far as "energy" being released, it depends on what you mean with that. It is a manga fact that yamamoto's bankai as we saw it did not release flames at all from the blade and even from other techniques. Yamamoto specifically said he did not release flames, I don't think there can even be a debate here. So the issue here is the context in which "energy" is being released. My own impression was that as far as yamamoto's bankai goes the issue is not flames being released but the actual temperature of the blade (presumably as hot as the reiatsu cloak which is also not fire, it just looks like fire). The physics of the situation will not match real world physics but I think what kubo meant for the situation is something like what I am going to explain. You have the blade which is impossibly hot. The blade touches something which naturally gets heated up by the blade. So what is the result? The specific part that got touched by the blade heats up which means there is a part of the object which is presumably heated to temperatures similar to the blade in the short time they are in contact. The asinine heat which got transfered then also essentially heats up the entire thing which results it being disintegrated.

    As for the byakuya bit, that is precisely my point. I never said byakuya disintegrated anything, just that the two techniques are similar in that their powers are compressed into small forms.

  7. #471
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    My point was that yamamoto specifically said his bankai did not release flames when it came in contact with things. As far as "energy" being released, it depends on what you mean with that. It is a manga fact that yamamoto's bankai as we saw it did not release flames at all from the blade and even from other techniques. Yamamoto specifically said he did not release flames, I don't think there can even be a debate here.
    He doesn't release his flames like he does in Shikai, highly concentrated flames are eradicating his target, guess you can call it simply energy. Fire is being concentrated into his blade, so I always understood it as "No flame is coming out, because anything that comes out is used to erase my target"


    Quote Quote:
    So the issue here is the context in which "energy" is being released. My own impression was that as far as yamamoto's bankai goes the issue is not flames being released but the actual temperature of the blade (presumably as hot as the reiatsu cloak which is also not fire, it just looks like fire). The physics of the situation will not match real world physics but I think what kubo meant for the situation is something like what I am going to explain. You have the blade which is impossibly hot. The blade touches something which naturally gets heated up by the blade. So what is the result? The specific part that got touched by the blade heats up which means there is a part of the object which is presumably heated to temperatures similar to the blade in the short time they are in contact. The asinine heat which got transfered then also essentially heats up the entire thing which results it being disintegrated.
    Yeah, pretty much my point. But that energy I understand as highly concentrated flames. I mean, he "warms up" much much more than what his edge touches. So the heat from particles that are being touched is going further, to warm up other particles and so on, just like flame, but it's much hotter. So hot we can't see it (so yeah, you can't see any flames coming out of a blade). Just like his cloak.

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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Byakuya will fight again. But As Nodt thinking his shikai was bankai is definitely a huge sign of improvement. Remember his shikai was overcome by As Nodt having SBK. So theres lots to look forward to instead of fantasizing about his swords size.

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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by freshseth83 View Post
    Byakuya will fight again. But As Nodt thinking his shikai was bankai is definitely a huge sign of improvement. Remember his shikai was overcome by As Nodt having SBK. So theres lots to look forward to instead of fantasizing about his swords size.
    Yeah, but if his style will still be flying waves of blades, just more of them, it'd be a boring improvement. He showed he can use them in different directions, so his control is sick right now. The question is, how that improved control will affect his Bankai?

  10. #474
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member conn-man's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Since Byakuyas shikai is now a big as his old bankai then his new bankai will either block out the sun OR it has a new form altogether since maybe the old bankai had plenty of blades already and more would just be cheap overkill. Something focused much more on a Senkei and Hakuteiken style is what I'm hoping for.

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    It'd be interesting to see what byakuya's new-found insight on his abilities would do for his bankai..... Looking back we did not even properly see what his new insight actually did for his shikai. We saw a substantial increase in his blades for his shikai but I am not sure of what exactly that means here. Thinking about it it is kinda weird that there even was an increase in his shikai blades to begin with. His old shikai seemed to have a smaller amount of blades and when he went bankai his blade transformed into many giant blades. It kinda seemed like to some extent the number of blades should actually be fixed here. Crackpot theory, byakuya did with his shikai the opposite of what he did during his fight with ichigo with his bankai. Byakuya made the point that the true form of his bankai was condensing the millions of blades into smaller more power blades. What if what we just saw is the opposite, decomposing his blades into more, less powerful, blades to get a greater number of them. He is sacrificing offense in exchange for blades. Of course, the fact that even at that stage he could actually overpower whatever nodt was doing is remarkable and perhaps even more asinine. So in bankai he could do that too, he could actually increase the number of blades in exchange for his offense. Imagine the number of blades he could have in bankai.... It would cover the whole of sereitei lol

  12. #476
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Byakuya is definitely mid-tier in power level and I'll elaborate.

    He is a captain with no weaknesses. He is strong in every way, but is not a "prodigy" in any of them. He is good with kiddo, swordsmanship, shunpo etc.. This gives him a great array of strategies he can utilize and many ways to combat an opponent. He is a very well rounded fighter, but this is also weakness by "Bleach" standards. He doesn't "shine" particularly anywhere. He is fast but there are people who are much faster than him, he is strong but there are people who make him look like an ant, his bankai is strong but there are bankais that are simply magnitudes stronger.

    As for tiers of power I would put (depending on people we have seen fighting) :

    T1 : Bach, Ichigo, Zaraki,
    T2 : Yamamoto, Aizen, Gremmy
    T3 : Sunshui, Urahara, Isshin, Unohana
    T4 : Byakuya, Komamura, Veizards

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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    I'd definitely not put Komamura down there that much, considering what he has shown us. He basically became immortal for a duration.
    As far as tiers go, Bleach power levels often depend on how "hax" a character's respective abilities are rather than character's strength himself. In that way, Aizen and Gremmy were probably "the strongest displays" we have seen so far. I would say Kyouraku follows them with his own set of "impossible to predict" abilities.
    Then again, Captain-Commander was far stronger than Aizen in terms of sheer strength alone. He was probably only rivalled by Bach only, a feat that will probably be matched by Ichigo at some point. Though, it has to be said that, if Ichigo's Bankai won't be stolen, we will never quite get to see a clear comparison about that.

    Byakuya would be hovering around mid with what he has shown so far, though we do not know if he now has accesses to new techniques or it's just the magnitude of his Bankai that was improved. He has more potential than many others, to be fair.

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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Not wanting to derail the thread by going on about other characters, but I think it's too early to be putting either Ichigo or Zaraki above Yamamoto at this point. It's not like Yama had any less easy a time putting down multiple Stern Ritter at once than Ichigo. The only reason they survived is because he paid them barely enough attention to even notice that Bazz-B happened to have an ability that allowed him to defend them from Yama's fire. As far as comparing Zaraki to Yamamoto, all we can say with certainty is that Zaraki is stronger than Unohana. But of course Yamamoto also had to be stronger than her in order to bring her to heel back when she was still a rampaging lunatic.

    The only one that's shown any evidence of perhaps being stronger than Yamamoto is Yhwach, and in his case he never even faced off against Zanka no Tachi. I only say he seems stronger because of how easily he dispatched Yama after his Bankai had been stolen. Not to say Zaraki might not actually have more raw power than Yama since we haven't seen him eyepatch-less yet, but with Yama's powers and abilities I still doubt Zaraki could have taken him on.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Firebird0ne's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by ANimouz View Post
    Byakuya is definitely mid-tier in power level and I'll elaborate.

    He is a captain with no weaknesses. He is strong in every way, but is not a "prodigy" in any of them. He is good with kiddo, swordsmanship, shunpo etc.. This gives him a great array of strategies he can utilize and many ways to combat an opponent. He is a very well rounded fighter, but this is also weakness by "Bleach" standards. He doesn't "shine" particularly anywhere. He is fast but there are people who are much faster than him, he is strong but there are people who make him look like an ant, his bankai is strong but there are bankais that are simply magnitudes stronger.

    As for tiers of power I would put (depending on people we have seen fighting) :

    T1 : Bach, Ichigo, Zaraki,
    T2 : Yamamoto, Aizen, Gremmy
    T3 : Sunshui, Urahara, Isshin, Unohana
    T4 : Byakuya, Komamura, Veizards
    Not intending any disrespect, because you do have something right in pointing out Kenpachi's great strength, but physical strength is not suitable to put Kenpachi on the same tier as Ywach and Ichigo. There is no way that either of those two would have taken the kind of damage that Kenpachi did vs. Gremmy. It all comes down to Kenpachi being strong, but not having much else to his repertoire...thus, the reason he is lying in a ditch and not accompanying Ywach to the royal realm or fighting him. And while his physical strength might match Yamamoto's, Kenpachi would never stand against him in battle. Even Ywach feared taking the CC head on, and had lost to him before. Aizen has less physical strength, but extreme reiatsu, hax powers and can think circles around Kenpachi. I think those other four would comprise the top tier, followed by Shunsui, and that Kenpachi and Byakuya would be about where the senior captains were before, well above the vizards. It hardly makes sense to compare Byakuya to Urahara (powers unknown and not a captain), Unohana (dead), Gremmy (dead), Isshin (no longer a captain) and Komamura (yeah, he was great in immortal form, but now he's a dog, folks).

    Also, you can't put the vizards equal with Byakuya, because they were defeated by Mask, whom post RR Renji defeated without taking any real damage at all. Also, there is the fact that a) As Nodt acknowledged Byakuya's huge increase in power when he mistook Byakuya's shikai for his bankai (thus indicating Byakuya's power increased by 5 - 10 times, as bankai is 5 - 10 times more powerful than shikai, as stated in canon, by Yoruichi.) and b) As Nodt in vollstandig was demolished by post-RR Rukia. Are you saying then that Byakuya is weaker than Renji and Rukia? Really? Logically, that can't be. He is definitely above all of the vizards, as well as now-depowered Komamura, Soi fon and Hitsugaya and he is probably as, if not more powerful now than Ukitake.

    As current captains go, I think it's:

    T1: Shunsui
    T2: Kenpachi, Byakuya
    T3: Ukitake
    T4: Renji, Rukia (as proven by the fact they beat SRs that the vaizards and pre-RR Byakuya couldn't), Soi Fon, Hitsugaya
    T5: The rest of the living captains, except Komamura, who can hardly be counted as a captain now)
    T6: The other VCs with bankai

    You are entitled to your opinion and I would love to hear you support your arguments about Kenpachi's ability in comparison to Byakuya, once Byakuya's abilities have been shown in battle so that there is something to compare. You seem to make the rather big mistake of very much underestimating Byakuya, still judging him at his pre-RR level, while grossly inflating the importance of Kenpachi's raw physical strength alone. Because of Byakuya's increased power, extreme durability (ie...he spent longer in Kirinji's healing pool than anyone ever had...Kirinji, himself, pointed this out, showing his appreciation of Byakuya's durability), higher intelligence, excellent kido (uses high level spells with no incantation) and advanced ability in flash step (He's one of the few who shows aptitude and ability to use advanced techniques Yoruichi does. Who else has been shown doing that 'molting cicada' move?) Byakuya is a formidable fighter, so although he pales in comparison to Kenpachi's raw physical strength, he would not easily lose to Kenpachi in a battle.
    Last edited by Firebird0ne; June 20, 2014 at 08:51 AM.

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    Re: How strong is Byakuya?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoOneInParticular View Post
    Not wanting to derail the thread by going on about other characters, but I think it's too early to be putting either Ichigo or Zaraki above Yamamoto at this point. It's not like Yama had any less easy a time putting down multiple Stern Ritter at once than Ichigo. The only reason they survived is because he paid them barely enough attention to even notice that Bazz-B happened to have an ability that allowed him to defend them from Yama's fire. As far as comparing Zaraki to Yamamoto, all we can say with certainty is that Zaraki is stronger than Unohana. But of course Yamamoto also had to be stronger than her in order to bring her to heel back when she was still a rampaging lunatic.

    The only one that's shown any evidence of perhaps being stronger than Yamamoto is Yhwach, and in his case he never even faced off against Zanka no Tachi. I only say he seems stronger because of how easily he dispatched Yama after his Bankai had been stolen. Not to say Zaraki might not actually have more raw power than Yama since we haven't seen him eyepatch-less yet, but with Yama's powers and abilities I still doubt Zaraki could have taken him on.
    ^Gotta agree with this. Yama would have vaporized Zaraki with Zanka no Tachi. He really has no defense against it. Plus, Yama has that cloak of fire which Ywach said would have burned him had he not had blut vene activated. Zaraki probably does have more raw power, but...Yama did take out an Espada level arrancar with his bare fist so...yeah, it still might be a toss up.

    As for Byakuya, I'd put him higher up than where I had him on the first page. Is highly probable he's more than a match for the Senior Captains now. I hesitate to say stronger because we've yet to see them go all out. I'd also put the Visored a lot lower than where I originally pegged them.

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