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Thread: Kido goes the way of the dodo

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Kido goes the way of the dodo

    Towards the end of the Aizen fight, he perfect a perfect lvl 90 Kido with complete incantation, even Aizen is impressed with himself when he's performed it...

    Yet even back then (using a fraction of his current strength) ichigo is able to shatter it with one swing of his blade.

    Now it seems there are people beyond that level, people who I doubt will just stand there and allow their opponents to recite a whole incantation.

    So the question is.... will be ever see Kido being used in combat from here on in

    I for one see it as a great opportunity missed.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Jabman's Avatar
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    Re: Kido goes the way of the dodo

    Good question. I really enjoyed it when kido was used in a fight. I'm hoping there are levels above 100.

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    Re: Kido goes the way of the dodo

    I don't think there is any reason it can't be used in high end combat, had someone used the same technique on Ichigo being on the same level or higher than Ichigo, then Ichigo wold surely been a goner and blasted to bits.

    I think there are 3 requirements to Kido in relation to this discussion.
    • It requires that the caster has enough reatsu to make the Kido deadly enough on the target.
    • It requires that the caster can control reatsu very neatly and perfectly, like circuts on a circut board.
    • It requires knowledge, focus and concentration to channel the Kido without the incarnation.

    In my opinon, the more reatsu you put into the kido, and the greater control you got of it, the more deadly it becomes. If you attempth to use a Kido on a far superiour being, then it won't work at all, as it was evident with Aizen trying to pull it off on Ichigo who as a whole dimension higher than Aizen.

    So if Ichigo learned some Kido, then I sure as hell don't want to be the one in blast range

    Also keep this in mind, I'd say this is proof that Kido requires around equal or superiour reatsu to do any damage, assuming the above 3 requirements are true.


    Rukia never lost her knowledge, focus, concentration nor did she loose her ability to control reatsu, however, what she did loose, was her reatsu, her level was severely lower than usual.

    As a result, the same happened to her here than what happened to Aizen against Ichigo.
    Last edited by Quantized; June 23, 2013 at 06:15 PM.

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    Re: Kido goes the way of the dodo

    I am of the idea that kido is ultimately too specialized for it to be useful to most people. Low level kido is overall weak and does not have enough power to be relevant safe for a few things (like when byakuya uses byakurai to hit in short range). High level kido is difficult to use, requires a lot of power and is only ultimately useful if you can skip the incantation which also seems to be a high level skill which takes time to learn. Overall there are 4 disciples a shinigami has to learn as master when he fights so naturally he has to make a choice when it comes to deciding what to train. Even if a shinigami masters level 90th kido without an incantation, can it really surpass the power of a bankai? Is it worth it to develop that instead of an actual shikai and bankai? Bankai is an innate power to the user, I would think that a shinigami would be wise to spend time developing that rather than kido in the grand scheme of things. Only top class shinigami can even use high level kido in the middle of battle as far as we have seen and even what little we have seen usually fills some extremely specific roles in the battle or is used against weaker opponents. As far as we have seen only 90th level kido could actually match bankai and to be honest even that might be a bit of a stretch. Even urahara can't use level 90th kido properly without an incantation....

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Exodi's Avatar
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    Re: Kido goes the way of the dodo

    Quote Originally Posted by Quantized View Post
    I don't think there is any reason it can't be used in high end combat, had someone used the same technique on Ichigo being on the same level or higher than Ichigo, then Ichigo wold surely been a goner and blasted to bits.

    I think there are 3 requirements to Kido in relation to this discussion.
    • It requires that the caster has enough reatsu to make the Kido deadly enough on the target.
    • It requires that the caster can control reatsu very neatly and perfectly, like circuts on a circut board.
    • It requires knowledge, focus and concentration to channel the Kido without the incarnation.

    In my opinon, the more reatsu you put into the kido, and the greater control you got of it, the more deadly it becomes. If you attempth to use a Kido on a far superiour being, then it won't work at all, as it was evident with Aizen trying to pull it off on Ichigo who as a whole dimension higher than Aizen.

    So if Ichigo learned some Kido, then I sure as hell don't want to be the one in blast range

    Also keep this in mind, I'd say this is proof that Kido requires around equal or superiour reatsu to do any damage, assuming the above 3 requirements are true.


    Rukia never lost her knowledge, focus, concentration nor did she loose her ability to control reatsu, however, what she did loose, was her reatsu, her level was severely lower than usual.

    As a result, the same happened to her here than what happened to Aizen against Ichigo.
    I think there's some validity to this, and this is why Byakuya's Soukatsui against Renji appeared to be so powerful.

    But since there are levels to the kido, there have to be some inherent differences in the power of each kido (or, it's at least assumed throughout the series). So, while taking into account your three points, this would have to mean that Rukia pulling off Hado 88 might still not be as powerful as Byakuya using Soukatsui.

    I've always wondered of the possibility of the different levels simply being groups of similar kidou (e.g. Shakkahou, Oukasen, and Soukatsui, being 31/32/33, being fire related, and being the three primary colors.) Maybe the other 8 thirty-level kido are fire related and have a color in the title. Or perhaps it's a combination of that and different powerful levels.

    I certainly hope that kido is explained more throughout the rest of the series.
    Last edited by Exodi; June 23, 2013 at 06:55 PM.

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    Re: Kido goes the way of the dodo

    Until we see Tessai fight, I don't think Kido is going anywhere. And not only is he possibly the best pure kido user in all of Bleach with mastery of bakudo and hado, but of all the kido specialists, he seems to be able to compliment his skills with physical strength and hand to hand skills. Most other hardcore kido specialists have nothing else aside from kido.
    Not Perfect is GOoD

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    Re: Kido goes the way of the dodo

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    I am of the idea that kido is ultimately too specialized for it to be useful to most people. Low level kido is overall weak and does not have enough power to be relevant safe for a few things (like when byakuya uses byakurai to hit in short range). High level kido is difficult to use, requires a lot of power and is only ultimately useful if you can skip the incantation which also seems to be a high level skill which takes time to learn. Overall there are 4 disciples a shinigami has to learn as master when he fights so naturally he has to make a choice when it comes to deciding what to train. Even if a shinigami masters level 90th kido without an incantation, can it really surpass the power of a bankai? Is it worth it to develop that instead of an actual shikai and bankai? Bankai is an innate power to the user, I would think that a shinigami would be wise to spend time developing that rather than kido in the grand scheme of things. Only top class shinigami can even use high level kido in the middle of battle as far as we have seen and even what little we have seen usually fills some extremely specific roles in the battle or is used against weaker opponents. As far as we have seen only 90th level kido could actually match bankai and to be honest even that might be a bit of a stretch. Even urahara can't use level 90th kido properly without an incantation....
    I don't quite see that as a problem, but first things first, just pointing out the obvious for the sake of the argument, that people in Bleach can only fight others in their own weigth classes, or they're outmatched.
    So a low level shinigami can of course only battle another low class shinigami.
    Even low level Zanpaktou fighters are extremly weak and useless to the weigth classes we're used to see fight in Bleach, granted (I think) a low level Kido user could win against a low level Zanpaktou user, and vice versa.

    Same applies to high end fighters, it's just a choice to pick what you're most comfortable and strong with. Some people just seems to have a gift for Kido, and chooses to fight with Kido, while others have a really useful and strong zanpaktou. Even more rare are those who can do both exceptionally, Aizen for one, perhaps Tessai as well?

    Imo if you got the reatsu and brains then you can become a freaking nightmare Kido user who could wet anyones pants despite of having equal reatsu.
    Why I say this? Because we have seen just how fast the strong fighters can fire of 90ish Kido's, and we have seen how little it tires them to do so, so they can repeat shooting Kido's one after another.
    Being able to fight in high speed, would only make the Kido user all the more deadly, since you can't easily catch him/her.
    If you go down in overall strength weigth classes, then Zanpaktou and Kido abilities grow dramatically weaker, but they can still hurt each others a heck of a lot.

    In my opinion I think this is one of the big plot holes in Bleach, Kido users are deadly and really dangerous, yet we don't see them much in action, we havent even seen a single fully developed Kido user battle it out for real, heck not even a low level one.

    I really don't see a reason why Kido isn't used more, it just seems like the direction Kubo wants to go, and he doesn't seem to have a lot of interest in Kido, it's more like a bi-product of the story at this rate despite its huge potential.

    Quote Originally Posted by Exodi View Post
    I think there's some validity to this, and this is why Byakuya's Soukatsui against Renji appeared to be so powerful.

    But since there are levels to the kido, there have to be some inherent differences in the power of each kido (or, it's at least assumed throughout the series). So, while taking into account your three points, this would have to mean that Rukia pulling off Hado 88 might still not be as powerful as Byakuya using Soukatsui.

    I've always wondered of the possibility of the different levels simply being groups of similar kidou (e.g. Shakkahou, Oukasen, and Soukatsui, being 31/32/33, being fire related, and being the three primary colors.) Maybe the other 8 thirty-level kido are fire related and have a color in the title. Or perhaps it's a combination of that and different powerful levels.

    I certainly hope that kido is explained more throughout the rest of the series.
    This is indeed very, very interesting! How Kido is categorized in the tiers is a bit, if not a lot, of mysterious.
    Would love to know more of this too
    Last edited by Quantized; June 24, 2013 at 02:18 AM.

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    Re: Kido goes the way of the dodo

    Quote Originally Posted by xXAshisogiJizoXx View Post
    Until we see Tessai fight, I don't think Kido is going anywhere. And not only is he possibly the best pure kido user in all of Bleach with mastery of bakudo and hado, but of all the kido specialists, he seems to be able to compliment his skills with physical strength and hand to hand skills. Most other hardcore kido specialists have nothing else aside from kido.
    Oh how I wish that we could see Tessai go all out... just once is enough...
    Infinite RAGE!

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    Re: Kido goes the way of the dodo

    I will accept the argument with regards to Reitsu being a big part of the strength of the Kido in use. But I also believe there is a limit to how strong each kido can ultimately be used. Example.... Yama and say Renji and Rukai (in her almost none Reitsu state above) all use that same Kido.

    Rukai's is as we see
    Renji's should take out that weak lil trash hollow

    Yama having the Reitsu of a GOD doesn't suddently destroy the whole town. I like to think he could maybe take down a building sure, but I believe to each Kido there is a cap to what each Kido is capable.

    There is also the speed issue, in for example naruto... the hand seals which now have gone away as well could be speeded up to increase the speed of the Jutsu... but the same cannot be said about Kido. The Incantation apparently has to be said perfectly to be truly effective, which is not something any decent opponent is going to allow to happen.

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    Re: Kido goes the way of the dodo

    Quote Originally Posted by Quantized View Post
    I don't quite see that as a problem, but first things first, just pointing out the obvious for the sake of the argument, that people in Bleach can only fight others in their own weigth classes, or they're outmatched.
    So a low level shinigami can of course only battle another low class shinigami.
    Even low level Zanpaktou fighters are extremly weak and useless to the weigth classes we're used to see fight in Bleach, granted (I think) a low level Kido user could win against a low level Zanpaktou user, and vice versa.

    Same applies to high end fighters, it's just a choice to pick what you're most comfortable and strong with. Some people just seems to have a gift for Kido, and chooses to fight with Kido, while others have a really useful and strong zanpaktou. Even more rare are those who can do both exceptionally, Aizen for one, perhaps Tessai as well?

    Imo if you got the reatsu and brains then you can become a freaking nightmare Kido user who could wet anyones pants despite of having equal reatsu.
    Why I say this? Because we have seen just how fast the strong fighters can fire of 90ish Kido's, and we have seen how little it tires them to do so, so they can repeat shooting Kido's one after another.
    Being able to fight in high speed, would only make the Kido user all the more deadly, since you can't easily catch him/her.
    If you go down in overall strength weigth classes, then Zanpaktou and Kido abilities grow dramatically weaker, but they can still hurt each others a heck of a lot.

    In my opinion I think this is one of the big plot holes in Bleach, Kido users are deadly and really dangerous, yet we don't see them much in action, we havent even seen a single fully developed Kido user battle it out for real, heck not even a low level one.

    I really don't see a reason why Kido isn't used more, it just seems like the direction Kubo wants to go, and he doesn't seem to have a lot of interest in Kido, it's more like a bi-product of the story at this rate despite its huge potential.
    Well, my entire point was that ultimately kido was a skill ultimately too difficult to learn for the vast majority of shinigami. Hachi is potentially the second most skilled kido user we have seen and even then we saw him tire considerably after using a level 90 bakudo without an incantation(100 years ago). Aizen is not capable of using level 90 kido without an incantation properly. Tessai is actually the only instance of consecutive high level kido so far.... So ultimately it is precisely the opposite of "anyone with the brains and rieatsu can become a kido nightmare". Kido is so specialized and difficult to master that even if you are powerful and smart you probably won't be able to master it to a degree where it will be useful in battle . Of course that only applies to kido over the 90th level. It does seem like access to kido increases significantly beneath that considering the ease with which we have seen some fighters use it (byakuya can do up to the 89th level so far, urahara can use consecutive bakudo easily, aizen can do easily kido beneath the 90th level so far and we have even seen VCs do level 50 or so kido without an incantation). But then again if so many people can use the lower level kidos relatively easily so far then it is not an unique enough skill for it to be that useful in comparison with a zampakuto even after spamming it. Ultimately I would think that in a match between equals bankai would usually end up being more useful and perhaps powerful than kido. Its a practical thing, except for select shinigami kido can only be a way to complement how they fight(with byakuya being the best example of this), not their actual style. Even urahara, who could basically spam relatively high level kido, he ended up relying in his zampakuto which should tell us that his zampakuto was at least simply more practical than his kido.

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    Re: Kido goes the way of the dodo

    I"d say that Quincy might be able to cancel/null the effects of any Kido used on them which is why the shinigami haven't used any on them yet.

    Might explain how Ichigo was able to break out of the one Rukia put on him in the first chpt. It might not have been brute force but rather his own latent quincy powers weakening the bonds of the kido.

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    Re: Kido goes the way of the dodo

    Quote Originally Posted by TheWanderer View Post
    I"d say that Quincy might be able to cancel/null the effects of any Kido used on them which is why the shinigami haven't used any on them yet.

    Might explain how Ichigo was able to break out of the one Rukia put on him in the first chpt. It might not have been brute force but rather his own latent quincy powers weakening the bonds of the kido.
    This could be true but I hope not. The quincy already are strong enough and have the ability to steal the strongest skill of the shinigami, any more and imo it's overkill.
    Meh

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    Re: Kido goes the way of the dodo

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    I am of the idea that kido is ultimately too specialized for it to be useful to most people. Low level kido is overall weak and does not have enough power to be relevant safe for a few things (like when byakuya uses byakurai to hit in short range). High level kido is difficult to use, requires a lot of power and is only ultimately useful if you can skip the incantation which also seems to be a high level skill which takes time to learn. Overall there are 4 disciples a shinigami has to learn as master when he fights so naturally he has to make a choice when it comes to deciding what to train. Even if a shinigami masters level 90th kido without an incantation, can it really surpass the power of a bankai? Is it worth it to develop that instead of an actual shikai and bankai? Bankai is an innate power to the user, I would think that a shinigami would be wise to spend time developing that rather than kido in the grand scheme of things. Only top class shinigami can even use high level kido in the middle of battle as far as we have seen and even what little we have seen usually fills some extremely specific roles in the battle or is used against weaker opponents. As far as we have seen only 90th level kido could actually match bankai and to be honest even that might be a bit of a stretch. Even urahara can't use level 90th kido properly without an incantation....
    what you say make sense ecxept that we havent seen kido corps fighting yet, only hachigan, i believe that the people who have the talent to use kido as theyr main power and make it worth it are mostly on the kido corps, when we see them, we will know how to really fight using kido.

    ---------- Post added at 04:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:45 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Well, my entire point was that ultimately kido was a skill ultimately too difficult to learn for the vast majority of shinigami. Hachi is potentially the second most skilled kido user we have seen and even then we saw him tire considerably after using a level 90 bakudo without an incantation(100 years ago). Aizen is not capable of using level 90 kido without an incantation properly. Tessai is actually the only instance of consecutive high level kido so far.... So ultimately it is precisely the opposite of "anyone with the brains and rieatsu can become a kido nightmare". Kido is so specialized and difficult to master that even if you are powerful and smart you probably won't be able to master it to a degree where it will be useful in battle . Of course that only applies to kido over the 90th level. It does seem like access to kido increases significantly beneath that considering the ease with which we have seen some fighters use it (byakuya can do up to the 89th level so far, urahara can use consecutive bakudo easily, aizen can do easily kido beneath the 90th level so far and we have even seen VCs do level 50 or so kido without an incantation). But then again if so many people can use the lower level kidos relatively easily so far then it is not an unique enough skill for it to be that useful in comparison with a zampakuto even after spamming it. Ultimately I would think that in a match between equals bankai would usually end up being more useful and perhaps powerful than kido. Its a practical thing, except for select shinigami kido can only be a way to complement how they fight(with byakuya being the best example of this), not their actual style. Even urahara, who could basically spam relatively high level kido, he ended up relying in his zampakuto which should tell us that his zampakuto was at least simply more practical than his kido.
    i think that in a fight between tow near equals the mid level kido can actualy be very usefull, we havent seen many fights of this kind yet, but if you think about it, they dont have to be unique to be usefull, the key factor is knowing what a kido does and how to better aply it in the midle of battle, especialy when you consider that zampakutos have diferent workings and abilities, knowing kido can allow you to not be at the complete mercy of a certain zanpakuto skill, or to stop the zampakuto power of someone else in the right circumstance, thus gaining you an advantage, i think the real issue is realy that kubo is not a person to write about a lot of abilities and how they interact, the simplicity of the main characters skills and the scarceness of fights form oponents who specialise or are really good in kido atests to that, so we really are just the victim of the authors stile, hopefully in this arc he will give kido some more love.
    heres what i think is the explanation to BB having multiple DF:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...t=#post3373390
    here is what orihimes powers are and where shinigami power comes from.
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...t=#post3446556

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    Re: Kido goes the way of the dodo

    Quote Originally Posted by SoulAuron View Post
    what you say make sense ecxept that we havent seen kido corps fighting yet, only hachigan, i believe that the people who have the talent to use kido as theyr main power and make it worth it are mostly on the kido corps, when we see them, we will know how to really fight using kido.

    ---------- Post added at 04:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:45 PM ----------


    i think that in a fight between tow near equals the mid level kido can actualy be very usefull, we havent seen many fights of this kind yet, but if you think about it, they dont have to be unique to be usefull, the key factor is knowing what a kido does and how to better aply it in the midle of battle, especialy when you consider that zampakutos have diferent workings and abilities, knowing kido can allow you to not be at the complete mercy of a certain zanpakuto skill, or to stop the zampakuto power of someone else in the right circumstance, thus gaining you an advantage, i think the real issue is realy that kubo is not a person to write about a lot of abilities and how they interact, the simplicity of the main characters skills and the scarceness of fights form oponents who specialise or are really good in kido atests to that, so we really are just the victim of the authors stile, hopefully in this arc he will give kido some more love.
    Well, with hachi being the VC of the kido corps, wouldn't he be enough of a relevant sample of kido combat? If he as a VC could do only what he showed, what exactly could we expect from weaker people than him? 112 years ago a measly level 90th bakudo without an incantation was too much for him and he is presumably the second strongest of the division. Our expectations of the rest of the division members should not be much higher than what we saw him do. At the moment what makes the most sense would be that the rest of the kido corps are just about as worthless as you would expect anything from the 4th seat and beneath to be. Considering that just using a spell tired the VC of the kido corps we have to consider a scenario that there actually is a minimum power level required for certain spells (at least the level 90 ones).

    My point is not that kido is useless, my point is that an scenario where it would be a suitable replacement for a zampakuto is unlikely at best. Shikai is readily available to most relevant shinigami, it can be spammed easily in most cases and using it is about as natural as an ability can be for a shinigami along with it being damn powerful. Bankai is an even greater power than that. There barely are scenarios where it would be worth it for a shinigami to spend time developing kido over developing their zampakuto. I would argue that in 99.99% of cases developing a zampakuto shikai and bankai is of greater benefit and power. Safe for tessai and hachi so far there are virtually no scenarios where kido can effectively replace a zampakuto or similar abilities. The most we have seen of kido so far, and with good reason, is that it merely complements normal fighting and even that was is quite a lot considering that even relatively high level kido users use it only sporadically for highly specific purposes (aizen and urahara).

    I would think kubo is all about how abilities interact. Its just that characters generally use their shikai, bankai or unique special abilities so the interaction between abilities is limited to that. Kido is simply too difficult to master even for supposed geniuses like aizen or urahara.

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    Re: Kido goes the way of the dodo

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Well, with hachi being the VC of the kido corps, wouldn't he be enough of a relevant sample of kido combat? If he as a VC could do only what he showed, what exactly could we expect from weaker people than him? 112 years ago a measly level 90th bakudo without an incantation was too much for him and he is presumably the second strongest of the division. Our expectations of the rest of the division members should not be much higher than what we saw him do. At the moment what makes the most sense would be that the rest of the kido corps are just about as worthless as you would expect anything from the 4th seat and beneath to be. Considering that just using a spell tired the VC of the kido corps we have to consider a scenario that there actually is a minimum power level required for certain spells (at least the level 90 ones).

    My point is not that kido is useless, my point is that an scenario where it would be a suitable replacement for a zampakuto is unlikely at best. Shikai is readily available to most relevant shinigami, it can be spammed easily in most cases and using it is about as natural as an ability can be for a shinigami along with it being damn powerful. Bankai is an even greater power than that. There barely are scenarios where it would be worth it for a shinigami to spend time developing kido over developing their zampakuto. I would argue that in 99.99% of cases developing a zampakuto shikai and bankai is of greater benefit and power. Safe for tessai and hachi so far there are virtually no scenarios where kido can effectively replace a zampakuto or similar abilities. The most we have seen of kido so far, and with good reason, is that it merely complements normal fighting and even that was is quite a lot considering that even relatively high level kido users use it only sporadically for highly specific purposes (aizen and urahara).

    I would think kubo is all about how abilities interact. Its just that characters generally use their shikai, bankai or unique special abilities so the interaction between abilities is limited to that. Kido is simply too difficult to master even for supposed geniuses like aizen or urahara.
    i think hachigan fought very wel with kido, he defeated the goddamn 2 espada with just kido, by using it in the way it is suposed to be used, figure out what is the best way to get arround a situation, not spam and nuke, and my idea is that kido cant replace zampakuto unless you are really good at it, after all a zampakuto is made of the things you are best at, ecxept for yoruichis technique, that thing can replace a bankai probably.
    my point in the kido corps thing is that even for kido there are the people that are best with a certain kind and the people that are best with others, so hachigan may very well be "bad" at destruction ones and that is why he tired himself with that kido 100 years ago, he seems to be best at barriers and stuff, considereing that he only uses those no matter what the situation is in a battle, following that logic other member sof the kido corps wouldnt be useless at all, only they would have to fight compatible enemies for us to see their ture potential, also we havent seen a single zampakuto from kido corps people yet, considering that a zan takes your best talents and how you fight, there is a 99% chance that their zans will be related to kido and usable with kido to make very powerfull and usefull stuff, that is, for a true kido user, the zan does not replace kido, it complements the kido.
    heres what i think is the explanation to BB having multiple DF:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...t=#post3373390
    here is what orihimes powers are and where shinigami power comes from.
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...t=#post3446556

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