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Translations: Gintama 507 (2)
Proof? Sasuke as of yet has achieved nothing with his EMS that he couldn't do with his MS. He's just able to do it more often because his eyes aren't blind. He even received his Enton orb while still in basic MS.Originally Posted by jaymizzo
I said that they'd both die. It was just bleak for Naruto because he's actually trying not to kill Sasuke, but bring him back...on top of the fact that he has the strongest Bijuu AND Sage Mode and still confirmed to himself that it wouldn't be enough. Sasuke wanted to destroy the village, but even promised to kill Naruto before killing all the others. Even if he couldn't destroy the village, killing his rival would've been a close second. Naruto dying while killing Sasuke wouldn't save Sasuke, or bring him back, and Naruto would never get the chance to be Hokage. And this is all after finally being acknowledged by the village. He had more to lose than Sasuke did, especially since Sasuke was prepared to die (even going as far as to tell Naruto that he either kills him to become a hero, or becomes one of his victims).Quote:
You're damned right. Itachi's eyes AREN'T Sasuke's powers. The jutsu used through them are all Sasuke's own techniques, powered by his own chakra. The only thing Itachi did for Sasuke was allow him to continue using his OWN techniques. We don't blame all of Gaara's current feats on Chiyo for bringing him back from the dead do we?Quote:
Being born with potential does not mean you will realize said potential, like i said, without an outside event an Uchiha would not be able to awaken the Sharingan. Point is, you said because Naruto was not born with the Kyuubi it is not his power, he was born with the potential of being the Kyuubis Jin and he met that potential, Sasuke was born with the potential of awakening the Sharingan and he did. If you count Sasukes sharingan as part of him even though he was not born with it then the Kyuubi is just as much part of Naruto.
Sasuke's powers didn't grow after gaining Itachi's eyes now did they? He only recovered his eye sight,While on the other hand Naruto was trying to get more power.Sasuke was trying to repair his MS which is his power while Naruto wanted and did get access to Kyuubi's chakra which is an external source of power.
Last edited by Knightmare of heaven 0; August 28, 2013 at 07:15 AM.
So far the Uchiha who didn't awake the Sharingan where those who saw least battle in their lives whereas those who shed most blood became the mosters we acknowledge them for. Their power grows with their insanity and suffering.
Being a Jinchuuriki is different, the power is already inserted into you and all you have to do to use it is work an agreement with the tailed beast.
All the difficulty lays in overcoming the beast's human made hatred and voilà, you are in for near unlimited chakra.
Sage Mode takes weeks, months or even years of training to achieve and it has several drawbacks like having to stay still but Bijuu Mode only takes a single defeat means friendship followed by a massive and constant enhacement to all your abilities for as long as your bijuu wants.
Madara and Hashirama are a more clear example of how innate potential makes a huge difference.
Madara had everything Sasuke had in an even deeper fashion but still failed to match Hashirama because the latter was born with Mokuton, achieved Sage Mode and sported chakra reserves which rivalled even the Nine-Tails.
I take that Naruto always had Jinchuuriki potential and I take that subduing the Nine-Tails is a feat to be recognized but Naruto had help from his parents the whole time so the Kyuubi was basically handed to him with an instruction booklet and Kushina's special chakra chains.
In a sense, Naruto is more of an embodiment of all the people who aided him in the story than an actual power himself.
If we take all of that additional chakra from him, we are left with a Sannin specialized in Fuuton and the Kage Bushin no Jutsu. I take he is at least two times stronger than a Kage but he is not the anti-Madara one man army who single handedly changed the tide of the 4th World War.
Sasuke, for all we know, only ever took power in the form of Itachi's eyes and that's because he was on his way to blindness. Even without Itachi's eyes he was still stronger than Naruto at the point of their confrontation.
It's fair to assume that on the account of innate power, Sasuke surpasses Naruto, however, this series is about Lego Genetics and Hashirama's DNA so any add-on still counts.
He had the strongest Bijuu but it was not under his control. Adding that in is a moot point. Naruto did not say after controlling the Kyuubi that he and Sasuke would die or He was no match for Sasuke.Quote:
The point is unchanged that there would be no victor. Naruto was prepared to die along with Sasuke if he could not bring him back. That does not in any way say that Sasuke was stronger.Quote:
So, Without Itachi Sasuke would not have his powers back? Did you not just say thisQuote:
Itachis eyes are the tools Sasuke required to use those Jutsu once more, should every Feat Sasuke does from that point on be attributed to Itachis help?Quote:
---------- Post added at 06:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:17 AM ----------
---------- Post added at 06:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:18 AM ----------
What you all are saying is that because the Kyuubi is an external source of power, keyword being external, then the feats should be attributed to it. And since Naruto was not born with the Kyuubi that reinforces what you believe.
Then, the same is with the Sharingan. Admittedly, no Uchiha is born with the Sharingan, just the potential to awaken it, meaning they may or may not awaken it. Naruto was also born with the potential/requirements to be the Kyuubis Jinchuuriki, meaning he may or may not have been one. See where this is going?
You are making it sound easier than it actually is. Its not like its a walk in the park, its much harder than that. And we have seen out of how many Jins are there who are perfectly synced with theyre Bijuus?Quote:
Again, you are making it sound incredibly easy. I could say all it takes to awaken the Sharingan is seeing a lot of death. Sounds very easy if put in that context.Quote:
That is why i refuse to believe neither Naruto nor Sasuke are on theyre level. Even with whatever power up they get.Quote:
Sasuke had help from Itachi who continuously fueled his hatred. Your point?Quote:
It is unfair to take ones power in my eyes. I despise his current reliance on the kyuubi but thats what most people do, rely on theyre strongest asset. Sage mode would have been beastly if Naruto learned more Jutsus etc but thats besides the point.Quote:
We do not know that for sure. Naruto is stunted because of the Kyuubi. His potential was never met because he practically only has two Parent Jutsus in his Arsenal. He hadnt the knowledge or tutoring to be able to learn a multitude of Jutsu to reach his potential.Quote:
This has been discussed endlessly and i seriously do not feel like opening this can of worms.
Why not go with all his friends and win overwhelmingly or at least try to convince him with all Konoha youngsters? He wants to do it alone, selfish as it is.Originally Posted by Naruto c488
If both don't win, both lose? I don't see a draw being a loss.
You clearly aren't ashamed and I never hinted to you being in need of some shame for this argument, but okay. :/
Thanks for the link, but I better make it instantly visible.
What was that about only enabling Sasuke to use his techniques from before?
Last edited by Schabrak; August 28, 2013 at 08:44 AM.
I disagree. Wasn't it Minato's seal that caused both of their chakras to mix together? I remember that being said in Part I, and possibly in Part II.Quote:
I also feel as if I'm the only one who's not taking Naruto's claim that Sasuke would have beaten him as fact. Sasuke was nearly blind, exhausted, and in pain... Naruto should have been able to beat him without too much effort. I still think Naruto was lying... maybe he would have lost to Sasuke at 100%, but not the exhausted and nearly blind Sasuke. Maybe Naruto saw Sasuke turning good?
I also am in full belief that Naruto did not surpass Jiraiya at all. It seems I"m one of the very rare one who thinks that. IN terms of power, Naruto is superior... but overall, Jiraiya is so much better.
Some people tend to take what Naruto said back then too literally. You forget that he's too modest and cares too much for Sasuke. He doesn't really care for power as much as Sasuke does but he did say that they'd both die if they fought. Which is not far from the truth if they pierce themselves in Rasengan/Chidori clash.
So again, it's pretty much useless to talk about who's superior now. They'll both get the last power up soon enough, when it'll be even more complex to talk about who's stronger. Nothing will be revealed until they fight.
Last edited by Roman; August 28, 2013 at 02:37 PM.
http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/484/9 Amaterasu flames sitting right here in the right hand of his Susanoo. Same as now.Originally Posted by jaymizzo
Where is this myth that a jinchuuriki needs control of his bijuu inorder to be at full strength coming from? All that needs to happen is for Kurama to take control and Naruto immediately gains access to all of that chakra. He wouldn't be controlling it, but it'd still be used by Kurama to kill Sasuke. A jinchuuriki is the only ninja who can lose a fight and still win.Quote:
Right. Sasuke would not have his powers back without Itachi's eyes.Quote:
Because he's not healing him, or giving him a weapon, or granting him a power that he didn't have to begin with. He's restoring him to the level of strength he had before he went blind. It would be different if Naruto started out Kage level, then, had his chakra ripped out of him and sealed away and Minato simply gave him back that chakra. He's only restoring something that was his from the beginning. That's not what happened though.Quote:
I'm not saying his pride had nothing to d with it. I'm saying his pride had tons to do with it. It just doesn't change the fact that pride or no, he saw the future, and it wasn't a good one.Originally Posted by Schabrak
That's because you're only looking at it as a one-on-one fight, when it's far more than that. Naruto's fighting Sasuke to:Quote:
-bring his friend back
-finally be considered Sasuke's equal
-prove that anyone can change
If Naruto were to die while killing Sasuke while he was blind and weak, the only thing he would prove is that he wasn't his equal, not everyone can change, he can't keep his promises, and he can't protect Konoha without dying to do it.
That is a loss in every conceivable way.
Yep. I'm good, aren't I? I got foresight like a motherfucker.Quote:
The fact that absolutely NONE of that happened. Sasuke's power hasn't been magnified by any amount whatsoever. His Enton hasn't gotten any hotter. His prediction ability hasn't been enhanced. His chakra reserves haven't grown. His speed hasn't grown. Nothing has changed. At all.Quote:
As stated above, none of that happened. None of it. The Sasuke you're seeing now is the same Sasuke befre he went blind. His growth in power is because his access to MS isn't stunted anymore. All you're seeing is his own power.Quote:
That's a flat out lie. He received eyes that were already blind (Itachi's eyes), yet you're claiming they were better than the ones he already had? As an attempt to make it seem like they're superior to his own?Quote:
Neither did Sasuke. Which was the entire point of the analogy... lol.Quote:
What Sasuke felt after receiving Itachi's eyes, was his "light" returning to him. If he actually gained more power, his attacks would be... well... more powerful. Sasuke's strength instead only grows as his hatred does. Naturally for any Uchiha. Also not due to Itachi's aid.
True, i forgot about that, but it does not change the fact that controlling the Kyuubi or changing it was completely optional. Naruto could have gone all his life without using the Kyuubi, he has a very large Chakra reserve as an Uzumaki. But the point is, he managed to tame it and use its powers as his own.Quote:
Anyone who refuses to attribute Narutos feats while using the Kyuubis power as his own feats would really need to explain why that is. Its not as simple as "he was not born with it so its not his power"
Thats the sad thing, Naruto never said he would lose against Sasuke.Quote:
You are not in the minority, sadlyQuote:
It is not a myth, Naruto would die if the Kyuubi took full control and broke out of the cage (correct me if im wrong, i remember that being the danger). For Naruto to believe that they both would die means that he knows that he himself would not win.Quote:
Naruto controlling the Bijuu is much more powerful than it taking him over. We have seen the benefits of such a situation.
So you admit that Sasuke required an external tool to get his powers back right? You said a tool is not part of a Shinobi, does that not apply to Itachis eyes?Quote:
Sasuke did not have the power to negate the blindness from the usage of the MS or negate its effects nor did he have the ability to endlessly spam MS Jutsu without worrying about any drawbacks. EMS erased all of that. Therefore that is additional power he did not have.Quote:
So would Sasuke not use a different wording rather than saying he is getting stronger? Especially after saying he can feel Itachis power is flowing into him?Quote:
Lets put it this way. The Kyuubi is Narutos Sharingan.Quote:
When Sasuke gained the Sharingan, his attributes improved, he gained abilities he never had, once he mastered the Sharingan he became a better Shinobi.
After getting the MS, he gained additional power that he never had.
Same with Naruto, he was late to control the Kyuubi therefore late to gain its extra attributes. You cannot slate one without slating the other.
That goes against Sasukes statement about what he was feeling. The MS addmitedly did not make Sasuke faster or stronger, losing it would not have taken away his key attributes. Him saying that he is getting stronger means exactly that, he is getting stronger.Quote:
What you believe would him being saying "I can feel my power returning to me" not " I can feel myself getting stronger"
Last edited by jaymizzo; August 28, 2013 at 03:11 PM.
You can't compare Sharingan, a kekkei genkai, to Kyuubi. The Kyuubi is more like what Taka was for Sasuke or Team 7 was for Kakashi. The KYuubi is sentient and chooses to help, Sharingan can't think at all and is controlled entirely by its user.
I think only the Kyuubi chakra that Naruto stole is his own power. he's the one who had to use it completely without the Kyuubi's help, even going through training to be able to use the chakra arms precisely.
He never tamed the Kyuubi, that's not Naruto. He befriended the Kyuubi and made it his butt buddy, hence why Kyuubi gives away chakra for free now without hesitation.Quote:
Depends. Is this Naruto after stealing Kyuubi's chakra? Then it's all Naruto. If this is whenever Kyuubi lends its power to Naruto, then it's almost the same as Taka helping Sasuke when they fought Bee.Quote:
"I can feel myself getting stronger" - Getting stronger in that state of his then.He was weakened and he was getting stronger in his weakened state,He was getting back the vision and the ocular powers.
His overall abilities weren't enhanced.His Physical strength,Stamina,Speed haven't been enhanced.He restored his vision and the powers associated with his MS.His techniques didn't change in power.He didn't even get any weaponry like Yata mirror and Totsuka sword.He didn't get access to any new techniques.
Naruto had everything enhanced for him.He now has access to literally tons of chakra (Well he always had but he had to let Kyuubi take over him).His chakra shroud's defence is fantastic.He is very very quick.His physical strength has been enhanced by a great margin.All of this just by befriending the Kyuubi.(He didn't really fight Dark Naruto in him,He just hugged him and DN dissapeared.He didn't fight the Kyuubi himself to gain it's chakra,Kushina appeared and helped him) While Sasuke didn't have any drastic improvements in his abilities.
There's no concrete proof of Sasuke getting Itachi's "power",Whatever it is supposed to be.There's no clear evidence that Sasuke got Itachi's chakra reserves through the eyes.Itachi relies on genjutsu which cannot be transfered to Sasuke directly.The user needs to be skilled and it's not something that can be given to others.Itachi doesn't have much to offer.Sasuke didn't get a hybrid Susanoo by implanting Itachi's eyes did he? (Besides Itachi's version of Susanoo seems to be weak) No he didn't.He simply got back his vision and the ability to use Amaterasu.
Getting eyes back not having to fear of losing Sousano despite excessive usage is no enhancment? It is by any definition so, so why argue against facts clearly stated in the manga. EMS are an enhanced version of what Sasuke had.
Why are you even mentioning those enhancements through the bijuu mode, when it was Naruto approaching Sasuke's levels at that time? Did Naruto have an impervious shield and magic arrow spewing monster at his disposal? Or eternal fire or mind fucking illusions?
What got you so upset that you felt the need to talk down Naruto's achievement by putting Kushina into the discussion. The objective of your post is more than clear by that single action alone. :/
Last edited by Schabrak; August 29, 2013 at 12:11 PM.