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When I said he took the first opportunity, I was referring to after his revival and freedom.Quote:
The full effect of Hashirama's seal aren't entirely known, or Madara's ability at the time, so it seems like speculation to state that he could've utilised the rods even being restrained by Hashirama. And even if he had used the rods, would that have immediately released the effect of Hashirama's mokuton, or stop his imminent sealing? This requires a lot of filling in, I find it hard to find that more palatable than what was, in my mind, so clearly put forward.Quote:
The connection between Zetsu and Madara isn't entirely understood. Being able to communicate with Zetsu doesn't indicate that he was capable of utilising the rods. The line could be maintained by Zetsu's chakra, or some other mechanism.Quote:
And I've failed to see proof that he could, in fact, there appears to be more to suggest otherwise.Quote:
If he wanted to keep Hashirama out of the fight the simplest way would've been to just defeat him. Where does allowing Hashirama to restrain him, with the possible risk of someone sealing him, help that cause? Why didn't he bring him down earlier? There isn't any reasonable conclusions other than he couldn't or Madara is completely incompetent, which seems the far less likely of the two.Quote:
This would be a possibility if Madara's rods destroyed Hashirama, but they didn't. They simply limited his movement. Defeating Hashirama without completely eliminating him is a possibility, as we've seen. So why didn't he simply do it before? Hashirama would've still been available, but under control, and Madara wouldn't have been exposed to any further risks. Doing so wouldn't have changed anything other than lessening the risk of Madara's defeat. There isn't any logical reason for Madara to have waited until that point other than he was unable to do so prior to that, there was no reason for him to allow himself to be restrained.Quote:
Last edited by Impossibility; January 09, 2014 at 09:57 AM.
Sure there was. With others under the belief that he was restrained, and therefore harmless, they were less likely to focus on him before he was ready. He made it so he wasn't a threat on the battlefield anymore. That wasn't a risk, because as mentioned before, he had already activated his plan and was resisting. It would only have been a risk if they had attempted to seal him before Obito had been dealt with, but that wasn't gonna happen because Obito was a much bigger threat at the time. As said before, whether Obito lived or died didn't matter. Again, the Rinnegan already allowed Madara to control Obito once like a Path, and would still have been effective with an actual dead Obito.
Kushina states that her chakra is almost gone right before she uses the chains. And I'm pointing out that the only reason she "struggled" was because of her condition, dying and nearly out of chakra. Even then, she still had no trouble holding the Kyuubi while Minato talked and did his thing. She only ran into trouble when she reached her limit, a completely unique situation. When she wasn't in such a situation, she literally had no trouble containing the Kyuubi and then going off to talk to Naruto elsewhere. So consideirng Madara is back at 100%, there isn't ay reason to think he couldn't pull them in easily (especially since recent chapters has shown just that, him using the chakra chains and doing other stuff like attacking at the same time). Which again, didn't involve the chakra chains. The method that Akatsuki used is completely different from the one Obito and Madara employed.
It automatically appeared simply upon activation, despite Sasuke not purposely creating the flames and has happen every single time Sasuke called upon that version. No other version has had that happen. Rinnegan techniques don't require handseals, and the meteors involved not only Madara forming handseals, but his Susanoo forming them too. Why would he need to form handseals with Susanoo if it was not connected? And I don't see how you can claim that it has nothing to do with the advancement, unless you have some proof that new abilities are only gained at X-version of it...
The manga implies that it was Madara who activated it, or at least directed it. I don't know why you're mentioning distances when we have already seen that Madara doesn't need to be close to control Obito. It's pretty clear Madara knew what was going on despite the distances, and considering he was then shown communicating with Black Zetsu over an even larger distances, there isn't any reason to think that he suddenly got weaker with it. Right, because Sai has never overestimated himself and ended up screwing up? The point remains that we saw the way his sealing normally works and it wasn't working like that against Madara.
And yet every time Madara popped out a new trick, whether it was MS, EMS, or Kurama, Hashirama won anyway. And what does taking on Oonoki and Muu have to do with taking on an entire village? Being mobile enough to place eyes in a kid is far removed from laying siege to an entire village.Quote:
Yet they were as focused on him as ever. Hashirama was there, along with a host of shinobi. And if he was so untouchable as you've suggested, then it wouldn't make any difference. Activated his plan? Obito remained on a rampage with considerable strength. The activation of his plan was absolutely nothing. And yes it mattered, because he needed to be revived, if Obito was dead he'd be a long way from that.Quote:
And you're still missing the point. She was exceptional, special, and she managed one, and weakened struggled with just one. Madara is attempting nine, plus the counter effect of two jins. The task is obviously far more difficult. And Kushina showed that a break in focus was enough for her control to waver. Akatsuki did however utilise the Mazo, and it's simply an obvious comparison. I consider it even more relevant than Kushina's efforts considering the tools utilised, and then there is also Obito' struggles. These things together would indicate that dragging in nine bijuu isn't something you can casually pull off while fighting off others.Quote:
Those aren't abilities or techniques, that's a difference in form. You stated that an advancement in Susanoo provides new abilities, yet there is nothing to suggest that is the case. As for Madara's techniques, it has commonly been assumed that his meteor was related to his Rinnegan, there are obvious similarities with Chibaku tensei. Furthermore, using seals with the Susanoo doesn't indicate it's an ability gained through Susanoo, and even further along, it doesn't support in any way the argument that an advancement in Susanoo provides new abilities. It was utilised in a lesser form of Susanoo to start with. Do you have anything whatsoever to support the argument that Tengai Shinsei is an ability gained through the advancement of Susanoo?Quote:
Yes. However, you've extrapolated that to numbers that weren't shown. We were given a view of Madara taking on individuals, that should be more than enough to show who he took on.Quote:
And how was Madara going to control him? There isn't any evidence that he could've managed such a thing. And the manga indicates that Madara was the one that activated it, really? Despite there being a split screen, Zetsu making the handseal, and Obito, controlled by Zetsu, being instrumental and absolutely necessary. Distance, the reference to distance comes when I've begun to address Sai's sealing attempt. I mean it's right there in the sentence. There is a single panel between the seal locking on and Madara being revived, just one. So everyone is completely clueless, and you with your complete lack of support or evidence have managed to sort everything out.Quote:
Last edited by Impossibility; January 13, 2014 at 10:39 AM.
I'm in agony, guys. There hasn't been a chapter in 3 weeks, and I need my fix.
now playing: Ayreon - Into the Black Hole
I cannot imagine what happens after Naruto ends. Maybe wait for another "Same like Dragon Ball and naruto" manga?
I'm not entirely sure how both are the same, aside from the same genre and battles.
Obito was down and out when Madara activated his plan. Again, thanks to the Rinnegan and it's ability to control the death, there wouldn't have been any difference in puppeting Obito.
Madara had to activate Susanoo first, despite already having his Rinnegan activated. He had no other reason to activate Susanoo, as it clearly wasn't for any sort of protection, as Madara was already aware of.
there were clearly more then a "few" hundred in it.
Obito already had the Path rods inside of him, which is how Madara took control of him the first time. I don't know why you claim there isn't any evidence when we have actually already seem Madara do so before. Yeah, I would consider a viewing of Madara (in the first split-view) widely opening his Rinnegan with "speed lines" coming from it and the technique declaration across both panels to be an indication that it was Madara who either activated it or directed it. There is no other reason to have Madara there. Ah, got it. Anyway, there are three panels, with the following two being on the next page, where nothing is happening as oppose to there being no panels of such the first time. So your argument is that we should go by Hashirama and Sai's words instead of Madara's words, despite having a wider view of what was going on then they did and being aware that Madara's counterattack indeed was about to happen, in addition to knowing what type of person Madara is? I mean, obviously Madara's the type to simply give up when beaten and would never ever attempt to escape a sealing technique... Except you know, all the other times he got caught in a sealing technique and fought to escape it...
Last edited by Rikudou King; January 14, 2014 at 07:15 PM.
But, he won, which is kind of my point. Two v one is somehow supposed to compare to taking on an entire village with individuals that are as talented and one who was probably better than either of them. A handful is more than two. Madara didn't lay siege to Konoha because he knew he would lose.Quote:
Hashirama had nothing to do with the battle against Obito. Obito was pretty much the focus of four shinobi up until the moments before his defeat. And Madara wasn't untouchable to other shinobi either. I presumed that the plan you were referencing was this plan you've been laying out where Madara would allow himself to get defeated and hope it worked out with Obito. Otherwise, Madara's plan came into effect after he had been restrained. The Rinnegan doesn't control death, firstly, and there isn't anything to suggest that Madara would've been able to manipulate Obito under the circumstances or that the dead body would've been capable of reviving him.Quote:
You're repeating the same thing over and over. Akatsuki is more effective an example than Kushina. And Obito struggled with control of the bijuu, control using a similar means. And Madara's recent comments in the most recent chapter would seem to support my argument, it wasn't easy by any stretch of the imagination for him.Quote:
So a sword is a technique? Is another Susanoo limb a technique? It's a change in form. Susanoo can be altered, we've seen it take different shapes entirely. Forming a blade or a bow is a non-issue, it isn't a technique. Susanoo used seals, Madara used seals, maybe it made the technique more powerful, who knows. Even if Susanoo making seals was necessary for him to pull off the technique, that in no way shows that an advancement in Susanoo provides new techniques. He had to activate his Sharigan to use Susanoo, you've said it yourself.Quote:
What does that image have to do with the numbers Madara faced? You can go back to look at a ton of people behind Gaara at the start of the war, but can't bother to look at the numbers Madara took on.Quote:
And how'd that last attempt work out for him, back then he was even free. The reason to have Madara there was that he was involved. The other two panels are after Madara's revival. And Madara said there was going to be a counterattack because he expected to be revived, he didn't say Sai's seal wasn't working and he didn't say Hashirama's seal was ineffective, which is what the issue is. And the questions you ask support my argument. Madara isn't the type to simply allow himself to be sealed; his counterstroke was Zetsu, he himself couldn't handle it alone.Quote:
lol. damn, ridouking. you writing the manga constitution or a book, sh*t.
Luck? He won because he was better. And not once did I imply that he won with a simple one-trick attack, that one- attack was simply the finale. Tobirama was just one, Hiruzen was supposedly worth the effort, and I doubt everyone else, including the Senju, was useless. And that's an entirely different Madara you're referring to; that's a heavily modified and Edo Madara, another matter entirely.Quote:
Yep, pretty much; I said Hashirama and a host of shinobi were focused on Madara, and you responded saying they didn't focus on him until after Obito's defeat. I don't know how else to take that. And his original plan was to take on Obito himself, so this seems disingenuous. He was trapped, who was he going to be manipulating. Rods on both sides are necessary. Also, how would his death have affected the Rinnegan. If any old corpse could use Rinne Tensei, Madara probably could've just revived himself without Obito's aid.Quote:
I've not ignored it, I've considered it and put in context. Akatsuki are the only ones to drag out a bijuu from a jin with the Gedo, and surely if someone wielding the Rinnegan and using the Gedo doesn't matter, bringing up Kushina was a complete waste of time. He struggled to keep control, that what I said. And how does any of that disprove my argument? Did I once say that he wouldn't be capable of bringing up Susanoo? You're obviously arguing about something else entirely. The recent chapter supports what I've said from the beginning, that this task would require a monumental effort from Madara.Quote:
And Sasuke can't make Enton cover a blade without Susanoo? It isn't a new ability, it's Enton applied to Susanoo. We've seen Susanoo cover Kurama, we've seen Susanoo from ribs, we've seen Susanoo form various weapons, Susanoo can pretty much take whatever shape it pleases. No, but that doesn't mean that it can't. And once again, even if Susanoo making seals was integral to the process, does that indicate in any way that it's a new ability gained as Susanoo advances, considering that Madara used it in a lesser form of Susanoo. And the last sentence is because you pointed to the Sharingan in his eye as an indicator of it's link to the technique.Quote:
The people he faced, would be the people he actually faced. If they're a mile away, and they aren't engaging him in any way and he isn't engaging them, then he isn't fighting them.Quote:
But it didn't work out. Involved and activating are two different things entirely. Madara's revival didn't complete until the next chapter, his revival began after Rinne Tensei began, what he qualified as at that point is probably debatable, not an Edo entirely, kind of alive, who knows. Madara's claim became true because of Zetsu's intervention, not because he was capable of breaking out at any moment. I never claimed he gave up, I claimed he was caught, but he was aware that Zetsu could help out and free him. There was no reason for him to allow himself to be restrained. Even if you come up with the specious argument that he did so to avoid Obito's attention, why didn't he break out as soon as Obito was defeated, why did his release come only after the Rinne Tensei?Quote:
Luck? It was tactics. It was the technique that ended it, yes. You keep on attempting to rewrite what I've posted, have I ever said that 'Madara would simply accept defeat and such', anywhere. Feel free to continue on this pointless claim, there isn't anything to suggest that Madara at the time had the ability to solo Konoha, or even come close. You pointed to battling the Kages, he used the Rinnegan and Mokuton against them.Quote:
That's what you're saying now, not how you responded to my comment earlier. He told us he thought he was going to have to weaken Obito himself, so we have an idea. And you haven't shown anything to show that he wasn't trapped. Yes, but you're arguing that a dead Obito would've been just as good, if a dead path could be used to revive him he would've just pierced a dead body ling around and revived himself, Obito wouldn't have been necessary.Quote:
No, that's not what I said. I said she struggle with it, and even with her state, it shows that it isn't an effortless feat. Kushina was utilising a different technique, yet you brought her up, her chains although they are similar in appearance are different techniques, we know that. No, my belief was that if he had to face off against multiple opponents and utilise significant chakra and focus to face them it would slow down and likely weaken his pull on the bijuus; that has been my argument from the start. And the argument that he did it quite easily when he himself states otherwise is a waste of time.Quote:
It's Enton, what are you not getting about that? It's not a new ability. We've seen Ento whipped out over just the ribs, Sasuke uses Enton freely with his Susanoo. And I pointed out that the Sharingan being there was necessary for Susanoo, not necessarily for the technique.Quote:
He was only fighting in that direction because everyone was in front of him when the battle commenced.Quote:
So, Madara was revived about fifty chapters ago? They're very different. You're highlighting Madara's role when the manga shows that Zetsu was the one utilising Obito's body and eyes and creating the seal. And what do those other seals have to do with Hashirama's, and I don't know where you come up with 'a habit of breaking out of other powerful sealing techniques with ease'. And if he would've called on them it would've been no different from what he did, relying on others to get him out of his predicament because he was unable to do it alone. Madara has also shown that he wanted an actual fight with Hashirama, he's also never been at much self-inflicted risk despite your claim that he risked being sealed a few times, and he's also gotten himself out of his own problems rather than getting a helping hand from someone else.Quote:
this. I find it strange why you would mention the Rinnegan and Mokuton when I specifically called out his prefect Susanoo in my statement. It's not as if I was being vague about what I was referring to when I spoke about one swing doing as much damage as a Bijuu or the Gokages getting terrified.
he would use Hashirama's senjutsu to stop and take Obito's place. That is basically what he has done. I showed that Madara's actions and appearance were that of a person allowing themselves to be held, because they had a plan in the works. What are you talking about? Piercing any one dead body clearly wouldn't have worked because said dead body would have needed the Rinnegan first.
Luck. It wasn't luck that allowed Hashirama to outlast him, and it wasn't luck that conceived his tactics to defeat Madara. And the Kages managed to survive it, so I don't see why there wouldn't be shinobi in Konoha capable of the same. I called them out because it was those techniques that brought the Kages to such a state in the first place, such techniques that allowed him to handle some of the techniques lobbed at him, including Oonoki's Jinton. Madara's Sharingan alone didn't defeat the Kages.Quote:
He thanks Naruto for defeating Obito because it saved him from having to do it himself, indicating that he thought that he would have to complete the task himself. He didn't expect them to be capable of defeating Obito. Your own link shows that Madara thought he was planning on stopping Obito. He didn't allow himself to be held, he was being held, but simply had a means through Zetsu to escape. There isn't a single reason for Madara to have allowed himself to be restrained. Putting a Rinnegan into a dead body is obviously an easy feat, have we seen a path without one? Obito managed to throw a few into six jins with apparently little effort, it would've undoubtedly been easier than this route if it was an option.Quote:
Did or did not the Kyuubi manage to get some freedom and attack? And why is it considered a different technique, because it's different. Kushina's were simply chains moulded with her special chakra, Madara utilises chains that are a Rinnegan technique of the Outer Path related to the Gedo Mazo. The techniques even have different names. They're simply similar in their form and appearance; that is they both utilise chains. Who are these multiple opponents who he utilised quite a bit of chakra against while attempting to seal the bijuu. He says it was all he could do at his level, and being better than Obito doesn't mean much. Obito took in bijuus that already had rods in them, and only six.Quote:
It is Enton. And you did mention the Sharingan previously, my comment was almost a repeat of a qualification you'd made about its use.Quote:
This is getting a lot like when you claimed that the Sound and Sand took on 15000 Konoha shinbobi during the invasion. If we don't see them, there isn't anything showing he fought them, and we have a rather thorough accounting of who he actually took on, why try to make up numbers?Quote:
But, he failed, which was my point. Doing something with his own Rinnegan? By that you mean they show his face and since the Rinnegan are pretty glaring on his face they stuck out. I don't dispute that he has some connection with Black Zetsu, I dispute that he was the primary in the execution of that technique. I don't know how one comes to that conclusion when Zetsu had the eyes, the body of Obito, and the handseals. And how many times did this happen, and how many of these tech compare to Hashirama's? The whole argument, at least this component, which in itself is far removed from my original comment, is whether or not Madara was capable of breaking out on his own without aid. He was having a conversation, shinobi in this manga have that awful habit. Even if Madara had a hand in the resurrection, he didn't do it alone. That has been my argument from the start; that without Zetsu, and even with Zetsu there was a significant chance that, Madara would've been screwed.Quote: