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Thread: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

  1. #931
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Roman's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

    It makes a lot of sense. Bijuu can be considered like friendly pets. Dogs or stray dogs can be trained to become killers. The vice versa combination of meaning is apparent. Even if the comparison doesn't work, the point of my post is apparent, as well.

    Well, of course. People and shinobi are retarded. The world needed a person like Naruto who will bring order to this shitstorm. Besides, no one else had the experience with Bijuu as Naruto did. No one even thought about it since they were labeled as weapons of destruction or masses of hatred. Naruto was the only one with the balls to actually know them. For example, if Kiba got that same chance, he wouldn't kill them off as well. Or any other similar character. Anyone with a common sense, decency and a healthy morale can never kill beings who have no ill intentions.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Knightmare of heaven 0's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

    I guess most,if not all the meat eaters are retarded unethical dirty scumbags.Besides the very person who you have as your avatar believed in killing a few to prevent a greater number of deaths.He probably had killed kids who knew nothing and he has certainly killed these guys.

    Spoiler show


    And who knows how many like those who probably had lost their ability to kill people as they aged.Not every one is Chiyo or Hiruzen.But Sasuke would be a retarded demon pig for trying to kill some beings to prevent a greater number of deaths,if not something that can end the world.Yes the problem are indeed the humans themselves,But they aren't going to be all lovey-dovey.Some or the other guy would yield to his greed and try to live a better life by exploiting people abusing his power in whatever form it may be in.It will not be just because he is soo retarded that he just "doesn't understand people".But I guess this is how it's going to be in the manga

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    but Naruto and Sasuke will be able to create peace forever!
    and everyone is going to live happily ever after,because Naruto! Things are that very simple.Oh why do I even bother.

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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    It makes a lot of sense. Killing a stray dog just because you can and killing a stray dog out of necessity or just to put it out of its misery aren't the same thing. A stray dog rarely endangers a human being.
    But the Bijuus aren't being killed "just because", they're being killed because of their history and the danger they pose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    No, I disagree. Even if Bijuu don't exist, humans would find another way to make chaos. So it's not about the weapon, it's about people themselves. Something has to be changed within them and that's what Naruto's doing now.
    That's like saying that because humans will still go to war, we shouldn't try to get rid of nuclear weapons... Yeah, there will still be fighting even if the Bijuus are gotten rid of. But without the Bijuus, the world will still be a better place. Without the Bijuus, children won't be made into hated outcasts with terrible childhoods. Without them, innocent villagers won't be randomly killed whenever one of these children loses control. Without the Bijuus, another clan won't have to be completely eliminated just to control them, which is the point that Sasuke currently cares about. The point is, there isn't any reason NOT to get rid of the Bijuus. Even if the current generation turns peaceful, there's no guarantee that such a attitude will last and they won't once again be used as weapons.

  4. #934
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Roman's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    But the Bijuus aren't being killed "just because", they're being killed because of their history and the danger they pose.

    That's like saying that because humans will still go to war, we shouldn't try to get rid of nuclear weapons... Yeah, there will still be fighting even if the Bijuus are gotten rid of. But without the Bijuus, the world will still be a better place. Without the Bijuus, children won't be made into hated outcasts with terrible childhoods. Without them, innocent villagers won't be randomly killed whenever one of these children loses control. Without the Bijuus, another clan won't have to be completely eliminated just to control them, which is the point that Sasuke currently cares about. The point is, there isn't any reason NOT to get rid of the Bijuus. Even if the current generation turns peaceful, there's no guarantee that such a attitude will last and they won't once again be used as weapons.
    Their history and "the danger they pose" is specifically because of humans, not themselves.

    Yeah, that's the gist of it. Nuclear weapons won't destroy humans by themselves. That's why the saying goes, guns don't kill people, people kill people. It's the perfect example of how we can correlate real life with this story. The reason they're benevolent and conscious are the sole reasons for them not to be destroyed. The guarantee depends on the humans, not the weapons, that's what's it's about. If Bijuu or or nuclear weapons are removed, and a human wants to wage war, he'll simply find another way to cause it. Therefore, it's about people/humans, not weapons.

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    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    It makes a lot of sense. Bijuu can be considered like friendly pets. Dogs or stray dogs can be trained to become killers. The vice versa combination of meaning is apparent. Even if the comparison doesn't work, the point of my post is apparent, as well.
    No it doesn't. Again, bijuu cannot be killed, and they can be used as weapons of destruction. Stray dogs can be killed, they cannot regenerate in any way, nor have they been used to kill people. The bijuu weren't friendly for a long time, given how two killed people and one was willing to kill its jinchuuriki to break free.

    The point of your post does not exist because the bijuu are different from stray dogs. Even if the bijuu are killed, they regenerate, which would delay the bad guys' plans and allow the good guys to either stop them or prepare to take them down later on. This is a much better and logical step than "saving" the bijuu, but putting the entire world in danger. Realistically, Madara or Tobi would have likely taken out most of the opposition, and their plans would likely be achieved by now. Since it's a shounen though, of course we'll see Naruto's way succeed.

    Quote Quote:
    Well, of course. People and shinobi are retarded. The world needed a person like Naruto who will bring order to this shitstorm. Besides, no one else had the experience with Bijuu as Naruto did. No one even thought about it since they were labeled as weapons of destruction or masses of hatred. Naruto was the only one with the balls to actually know them. For example, if Kiba got that same chance, he wouldn't kill them off as well. Or any other similar character. Anyone with a common sense, decency and a healthy morale can never kill beings who have no ill intentions.
    The world also needs someone like Sasuke to make the right decisions and not be entirely naive. Naruto's way would be a lot like Hiruzen's, under whose rule had villages betray Konoha or try to betray Konoha despite the treaty.

    Well, that means Naruto can keep the bijuu from getting pissed off. "Hey guys, you trust me, right? Sorry, but we gotta kill you so Tobi or Madara's plans are delayed, but no worries! You'll be regenerated, and I'll find you!"

    Anyone with common sense, decency, and a healthy morale would kill seven beings who can regenerate in order to save the world. It's not only common sense, but it's logic. Sacrifice the lives of seven chakra beings who can regenerate, or put the entire world at severe risk against a supremely overpowered enemy?

    I'm willing to bet the only reason why you and Invader care about the bijuu being killed is because of Naruto and Sasuke, because otherwise I saw no complaint when the shinobi were trying to kill the bijuu until Naruto told Sasuke not to, and Sasuke refused to listen.

  6. #936
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Roman's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    No it doesn't. Again, bijuu cannot be killed, and they can be used as weapons of destruction. Stray dogs can be killed, they cannot regenerate in any way, nor have they been used to kill people. The bijuu weren't friendly for a long time, given how two killed people and one was willing to kill its jinchuuriki to break free.

    The point of your post does not exist because the bijuu are different from stray dogs. Even if the bijuu are killed, they regenerate, which would delay the bad guys' plans and allow the good guys to either stop them or prepare to take them down later on. This is a much better and logical step than "saving" the bijuu, but putting the entire world in danger. Realistically, Madara or Tobi would have likely taken out most of the opposition, and their plans would likely be achieved by now. Since it's a shounen though, of course we'll see Naruto's way succeed.



    The world also needs someone like Sasuke to make the right decisions and not be entirely naive. Naruto's way would be a lot like Hiruzen's, under whose rule had villages betray Konoha or try to betray Konoha despite the treaty.

    Well, that means Naruto can keep the bijuu from getting pissed off. "Hey guys, you trust me, right? Sorry, but we gotta kill you so Tobi or Madara's plans are delayed, but no worries! You'll be regenerated, and I'll find you!"

    Anyone with common sense, decency, and a healthy morale would kill seven beings who can regenerate in order to save the world. It's not only common sense, but it's logic. Sacrifice the lives of seven chakra beings who can regenerate, or put the entire world at severe risk against a supremely overpowered enemy?

    I'm willing to bet the only reason why you and Invader care about the bijuu being killed is because of Naruto and Sasuke, because otherwise I saw no complaint when the shinobi were trying to kill the bijuu until Naruto told Sasuke not to, and Sasuke refused to listen.
    You don't get it. You clearly don't get that Bijuu acted that way because humans treated them as tools of destruction. It wasn't them who created chaos, it was a human being who used them as tools. Who cares if any of them can be killed? Stray dogs or dogs in general can be trained to hurt people, but that was just an example.

    Oh but it does, you just don't get it. They're different to you because you treat Bijuu as the cause of wars and chaos. But you're wrong. They're just means to do the war, the cause of it are humans, as I pointed out many times. Logic can never work in a peaceful world where people have affection and understanding towards one another. If you don't understand that, your system of value isn't properly built. Like I said many times, even if you do kill the Bijuu, humans wouldn't stop with wars and chaos, something you also don't understand.

    Not everyone is perfect. Sasuke, like many others had a messed up life, so his choices and upbringing into adulthood were also messed up. That's why Naruto is awesome when it comes to personality. He had it the same, but he didn't cave in. And he found in his enemies reason and understanding, which is required to end the cycle of hatred and war.

    I'm pretty sure that the rest of the shinobi world now trusts the Bijuu. Not just because of Naruto but because of the fact that the Bijuu acted in Alliance's favor, attacking Madara and trying to get rid of the world's biggest threat.

    That's false and a complete contradiction. Again, you're not putting the world at risk if you leave the "weapons" alive or in sight. Again, if you kill those "weapons", another set would take their place. It's not the Bijuu who are a threat to humans, but humans themselves are the threat to their own selves.

    No, not really. While the Bijuu are certainly a power boost to both Naruto and Sasuke, this has nothing to do with this. I'm simply having another opinion about people.

    Guns don't kill people. People kill people. This pretty much sums this whole debate up, again.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Invader's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

    Quote Quote:
    If Bijuu or or nuclear weapons are removed, and a human wants to wage war, he'll simply find another way to cause it. Therefore, it's about people/humans, not weapons.
    Pretty much this. Hypothetically let's say Sauske killed all the Bijju and removed them from the mix (at least temporarily until they regenerate). Is that going to remove the hatred that is in people's hearts? How does that stop someone from going on a rampage and killing innocent people? Answer: it does nothing to prevent those things. The only thing removing the Bijju does (temporarily) is reduce the SCALE that a single incident may potentially represent. Someone with a Bijju would be able to cause destruction on a bigger scale - that's all. Reducing the scale from occasional incidents of mass destruction to millions of diffused, singular acts of hate & violence doesn't address the real problem.

    So MURDERING the Bijju doesn't solve anything. All it does is heap abuse onto living, sentient beings with the lame excuse that you're doing it "for the greater good". Meanwhile there is still all the hate, violence, and every other problem that was supposedly going to be fixed by murdering those sentient beings. So what is accomplished by that evil act of murdering those living beings? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Therefore Sauske would perform an evil act with no good outcome.
    Hidan... Naruto's ONLY real villain!

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  9. #938
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    You don't get it. You clearly don't get that Bijuu acted that way because humans treated them as tools of destruction. It wasn't them who created chaos, it was a human being who used them as tools. Who cares if any of them can be killed? Stray dogs or dogs in general can be trained to hurt people, but that was just an example.
    They still attacked people and were still used and fought over to hurt others. But stray dogs can't cause widespread damage like destroying a huge chunk of a town. But that is not the issue here. Issue is killing the bijuu during the war so it delays Madara and Tobi's plans.

    Quote Quote:
    Oh but it does, you just don't get it. They're different to you because you treat Bijuu as the cause of wars and chaos. But you're wrong. They're just means to do the war, the cause of it are humans, as I pointed out many times. Logic can never work in a peaceful world where people have affection and understanding towards one another. If you don't understand that, your system of value isn't properly built. Like I said many times, even if you do kill the Bijuu, humans wouldn't stop with wars and chaos, something you also don't understand.
    I agree with you. However, because the bijuu were spared, look at what's happening. Madara became the Juubi's jinchuuriki and is immensely overpowered to the point that he brought Naruto and Sasuke to the brink of death effortlessly and survived Gai's attacks. Even Naruto couldn't stop Madara from takin the Kyuubi from him.

    Logic can work in a war, which is what's happening now. I understand far more than you, it seems, otherwise you'd at least be acknowledging the trouble caused by keepin the bijuu alive, even if you'd still be against killing it. Again, I refer you to the manga, from the point Naruto told Sasuke to stop to now. Luckily, plot saves the heroes.

    Quote Quote:
    Not everyone is perfect. Sasuke, like many others had a messed up life, so his choices and upbringing into adulthood were also messed up. That's why Naruto is awesome when it comes to personality. He had it the same, but he didn't cave in. And he found in his enemies reason and understanding, which is required to end the cycle of hatred and war.

    I'm pretty sure that the rest of the shinobi world now trusts the Bijuu. Not just because of Naruto but because of the fact that the Bijuu acted in Alliance's favor, attacking Madara and trying to get rid of the world's biggest threat.
    Naruto had it better than Sasuke because he never experienced his loved ones being killed. Naruto didn't find reason and understanding, he just spoke from his heart while fighting them.

    Cool for them, but it doesn't change the fact that killin the bijuu would have prevented Madara and Tobi's plans from being anywhere close to successful in that time. Delaying was the best choice, like I said, because they can't get more power and are easier to beat, and even if they aren't, Naruto would have plenty of time to talk with the shinobi and make them stop usin bijuu to get power. Everyone wins, moreso the bijuu if Naruto succeeds.

    Quote Quote:
    That's false and a complete contradiction. Again, you're not putting the world at risk if you leave the "weapons" alive or in sight. Again, if you kill those "weapons", another set would take their place. It's not the Bijuu who are a threat to humans, but humans themselves are the threat to their own selves.

    No, not really. While the Bijuu are certainly a power boost to both Naruto and Sasuke, this has nothing to do with this. I'm simply having another opinion about people.

    Guns don't kill people. People kill people. This pretty much sums this whole debate up, again.
    Yet, it's only the bijuu that Madara and Tobi went after.

    It sums up your debate, not mine. My issue was that killing the bijuu was the right choice because it would have delayed Madara and Tobi's plans, not because they're the reason why the world can't achieve peace. I'm specifically talking about their plans, which required the bijuu in order to revive the Juubi again, which in turn gave Tobi and then Madara immense power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Invader View Post
    Pretty much this. Hypothetically let's say Sauske killed all the Bijju and removed them from the mix (at least temporarily until they regenerate). Is that going to remove the hatred that is in people's hearts? How does that stop someone from going on a rampage and killing innocent people? Answer: it does nothing to prevent those things. The only thing removing the Bijju does (temporarily) is reduce the SCALE that a single incident may potentially represent. Someone with a Bijju would be able to cause destruction on a bigger scale - that's all. Reducing the scale from occasional incidents of mass destruction to millions of diffused, singular acts of hate & violence doesn't address the real problem.

    So MURDERING the Bijju doesn't solve anything. All it does is heap abuse onto living, sentient beings with the lame excuse that you're doing it "for the greater good". Meanwhile there is still all the hate, violence, and every other problem that was supposedly going to be fixed by murdering those sentient beings. So what is accomplished by that evil act of murdering those living beings? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Therefore Sauske would perform an evil act with no good outcome.
    Kill the bijuu, beat Tobi and Madara, who are immediate threats, and then work on making people good. So yeah, plenty would be accomplished with that act. It's common sense, but I guess that's thrown out the window when it comes to Naruto and Sasuke. It's not like they'll kill the bijuu and be done with it.

    Kill bijuu

    Beat Tobi and Madara (more easily)

    Work on changing people and creatin peace so the bijuu won't be used for power again

    Bijuu regenerate

    Peace is established


    EVERYONE PROFITS

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  11. #939
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Roman's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

    Let's try this. For example, don't pay attention to the current crisis with Russia and Ukraine, but Russia does have nuclear weapons that could theoretically kill any country they want. In this manga, Russia is any village that has a Bijuu as a nuclear weapon. Now, why doesn't any country see potential threat in nuclear weapons that Russia holds? Because there's not a single person in Russia who'd use it against another country (although Putin might be the one). The same principle goes in the story with Bijuu and the villages. The comparison is exact and there shouldn't be any problems grasping this. In other words, by your logic, to secure the world from potentially going to war, the whole world would have to attack Russia. But that seems preposterous now, doesn't it?

    ---------- Post added at 09:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:18 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Kill the bijuu, beat Tobi and Madara, who are immediate threats, and then work on making people good. So yeah, plenty would be accomplished with that act. It's common sense, but I guess that's thrown out the window when it comes to Naruto and Sasuke. It's not like they'll kill the bijuu and be done with it.

    Kill bijuu

    Beat Tobi and Madara (more easily)

    Work on changing people and creatin peace so the bijuu won't be used for power again

    Bijuu regenerate

    Peace is established


    EVERYONE PROFITS
    This is your response to that post? You have a firm mindset that the Bijuu are solely responsible for people's hatred in their hearts. That's completely and utterly false. The immediate threat you're talking about is every shinobi in a respective village if that village wants to wage war. Do you get it? A single shinobi is a tool of war as much as a Bijuu is, if someone wants to start it. There is no peace as long as someone wants to start a war.

    Your logic tells us that the extermination is the only way to go, which is ironic because that's the very idea that this manga wants to avoid and it's the sole reason hatred, wars and chaos lasted that long, along with the fact that it's the complete opposite of how the real life works.
    Last edited by Roman; April 16, 2014 at 02:21 PM.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Exodi's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    Let's try this. For example, don't pay attention to the current crisis with Russia and Ukraine, but Russia does have nuclear weapons that could theoretically kill any country they want. In this manga, Russia is any village that has a Bijuu as a nuclear weapon. Now, why doesn't any country see potential threat in nuclear weapons that Russia holds? Because there's not a single person in Russia who'd use it against another country (although Putin might be the one). The same principle goes in the story with Bijuu and the villages. The comparison is exact and there shouldn't be any problems grasping this. In other words, by your logic, to secure the world from potentially going to war, the whole world would have to attack Russia. But that seems preposterous now, doesn't it?

    ---------- Post added at 09:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:18 PM ----------



    This is your response to that post? You have a firm mindset that the Bijuu are solely responsible for people's hatred in their hearts. That's completely and utterly false. The immediate threat you're talking about is every shinobi in a respective village if that village wants to wage war. Do you get it? A single shinobi is a tool of war as much as a Bijuu is, if someone wants to start it. There is no peace as long as someone wants to start a war.

    Your logic tells us that the extermination is the only way to go, which is ironic because that's the very idea that this manga wants to avoid and it's the sole reason hatred, wars and chaos lasted that long, along with the fact that it's the complete opposite of how the real life works.
    You seem to be missing M3J's point. Or at least you're purposefully ignoring it. I'm not him, but this is what I glean from his post:

    M3J is clearly referencing the war, in and of itself. He's even agreed with what you are saying overall. No one wants to murder beautiful, sentient creatures if they don't have to. In terms of the war, and using your examples, "Russia" already has most of the "nuclear weapons". Because in this case, there is a finite amount. "Russia" in this case is also only two people, who've already expressed a desire to use these nukes for their gain. You can't say everyone in Russia or any village is an immediate threat, because only two people (Tobi and Madara) have the means and power to acquire the nukes and use them as they see fit.

    "Russia" (or Tobi and Madara) is also the only country with the immediate means to not only take the other countries nukes (i.e. Naruto and Bee), but have also expressed the desire to use those nukes to wipe out everyone, by merging all of those nukes together into one ultimate mega unstoppable nuke.

    Now, let's say the nukes are happy little creatures and everyone loves them. Whatever, fine and dandy. But let's also say that someone can press a button and make all of the nukes disappear without having anyone die in the process, knowing beforehand that the nukes will return eventually.

    I think what M3J is getting at is that:

    1. It stops the immediate real threat, which is Russia (i.e. Tobi and Madara). If they can't merge the nukes, they can't create the ultra mega nuke.

    He's not saying this is the ONLY method towards peace. It's a very real method towards immediate peace, in that it stops Russia from creating a mega nuke, and thus makes the chances of defeating Russia much, much easier. He's saying that it's a very logical step towards defeating Russia. I mean, Tobi and Madara. It just so happens that an added benefit would be peace, because if there are no more nukes, then there are no more wars over control of the nukes. Because who knows how long the nukes will be gone for? But people are fickle and nothing is guaranteed.


    You both agree with each other, but it just so happens M3J can objectively look at both sides of the argument.
    I think you can, too, but you seem to be arguing just for the sake of it.
    Last edited by Exodi; April 16, 2014 at 03:35 PM.

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    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Roman's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

    Quote Originally Posted by Exodi View Post
    You seem to be missing M3J's point. Or at least you're purposefully ignoring it. I'm not him, but this is what I glean from his post:

    M3J is clearly referencing the war, in and of itself. He's even agreed with what you are saying overall. No one wants to murder beautiful, sentient creatures if they don't have to. In terms of the war, and using your examples, "Russia" already has most of the "nuclear weapons". Because in this case, there is a finite amount. "Russia" in this case is also only two people, who've already expressed a desire to use these nukes for their gain. You can't say everyone in Russia or any village is an immediate threat, because only two people (Tobi and Madara) have the means and power to acquire the nukes and use them as they see fit.

    "Russia" (or Tobi and Madara) is also the only country with the immediate means to not only take the other countries nukes (i.e. Naruto and Bee), but have also expressed the desire to use those nukes to wipe out everyone, by merging all of those nukes together into one ultimate mega unstoppable nuke.

    Now, let's say the nukes are happy little creatures and everyone loves them. Whatever, fine and dandy. But let's also say that someone can press a button and make all of the nukes disappear without having anyone die in the process, knowing beforehand that the nukes will return eventually.

    I think what M3J is getting at is that:

    1. It stops the immediate real threat, which is Russia (i.e. Tobi and Madara). If they can't merge the nukes, they can't create the ultra mega nuke.

    He's not saying this is the ONLY method towards peace. It's a very real method towards immediate peace, in that it stops Russia from creating a mega nuke, and thus makes the chances of defeating Russia much, much easier. He's saying that it's a very logical step towards defeating Russia. I mean, Tobi and Madara. It just so happens that an added benefit would be peace, because if there are no more nukes, then there are no more wars over control of the nukes. Because who knows how long the nukes will be gone for? But people are fickle and nothing is guaranteed.


    You both agree with each other, but it just so happens M3J can objectively look at both sides of the argument.
    I think you can, too, but you seem to be arguing just for the sake of it.
    The logic applies to the village as well, because if only two people who are in charge of the village want to go to war, immediately every shinobi/military soldier becomes a tool of war, regardless of having Bijuu/nukes at all, so that argument doesn't hold any ground.

    Of course, and this is what Invader implied. The nukes/Bijuu as a means of war means only a reduction in damage, but not stopping the doing of the war overall.

    The nukes are neutral in your argument as well as I pointed out. The immediate threat is the one who presses the button. If the nukes/Bijuu perish, the one who persists with the war will find another "nuke/Bijuu".

    1. This is where I don't agree with him because stopping the seemingly immediate threat just because there's a risk of someone wanting to use it is not logical specially because the matter of fact is a being with conscious. The time period doesn't matter here because if someone wants to wage war, it will happen regardless of weapons available.

    The immediate peace is an illusion here if we don't know when someone will want to make a war. The only thing I agree with him is the fact that the Russia/Madara would be dealt much easier if the nukes/Bijuu are not present. That's cool. But the problem lies in the fact that they're conscious and intelligent, beings with the ability to reason who want nothing else but peace. This is why I touched the system of value, morals and empathy/compassion. Logical step would be to destroy the nukes/Bijuu, but at what cost if you don't have any guarantee that no one will try to do the same thing again? In the nukes matter, you risk a potential war with the country just so you could get rid of the nukes, and in the Bijuu matter, you practically execute a being like you'd be executing an innocent human.

  15. #942
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    Let's try this. For example, don't pay attention to the current crisis with Russia and Ukraine, but Russia does have nuclear weapons that could theoretically kill any country they want. In this manga, Russia is any village that has a Bijuu as a nuclear weapon. Now, why doesn't any country see potential threat in nuclear weapons that Russia holds? Because there's not a single person in Russia who'd use it against another country (although Putin might be the one). The same principle goes in the story with Bijuu and the villages. The comparison is exact and there shouldn't be any problems grasping this. In other words, by your logic, to secure the world from potentially going to war, the whole world would have to attack Russia. But that seems preposterous now, doesn't it?

    ---------- Post added at 09:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:18 PM ----------



    This is your response to that post? You have a firm mindset that the Bijuu are solely responsible for people's hatred in their hearts. That's completely and utterly false. The immediate threat you're talking about is every shinobi in a respective village if that village wants to wage war. Do you get it? A single shinobi is a tool of war as much as a Bijuu is, if someone wants to start it. There is no peace as long as someone wants to start a war.

    Your logic tells us that the extermination is the only way to go, which is ironic because that's the very idea that this manga wants to avoid and it's the sole reason hatred, wars and chaos lasted that long, along with the fact that it's the complete opposite of how the real life works.
    What are you talking about? Exodi explained it well. Are you ignoring where I agreed people are the problem, not the bijuu? Or that I'm talking about TOBI AND MADARA'S PLANS that would at teh least, be delayed? There is no other nuke or bijuu that Tobi or Madara can get their hands on, cuz if there were, they would be going after the other nuke too.

    There is no peace either if Tobi or Madara wins and puts people in their genjutsu. My logic tells us that killing the bijuu or finding SOME WAY to put them out of Tobi or Madara's hands is the only way to solve the current problem. Let me break it down for you again:


    bijuu was part of Juubi, the single most powerful thing in existence

    bad guys want Juubi to put people in genjutsu

    bad guys need bijuu to make Juubi
    • spare bijuu, bad guys can get bijuu

      bad guys getting bijuu means bijuu revived, bad guy become jinchuuriki, much powerful

      bad guy's plan succeeds because there's no plot armor, people under genjutsu

    or
    • kill bijuu, bad guys can't get bijuu

      no bijuu means no juubi, bad guys don't get super power

      without super power, bad guys are easier to kill

      the bijuu REGENERATE

      while bijuu regenerate, good guys establish peace forever

      bijuu finish regenerating, peace forever between everyone and chakra beings



    Which one sounds better? Bijuu cannot truly die, as the manga says. However, humans die and cannot come back to life naturally. I honestly don't know why I'm wasting time arguing with you given we're not on the same page. You're arguing about the shinobi world and peace, while I'm talking about the war, and preventing the bad guys from winning. You also seem to not take under consideration that bijuu can regenerate, if the manga is true.

    Honestly, it's like you're arguing about religion and politics, and I'm arguing about science vs. religion.

  16. #943
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Roman's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    What are you talking about? Exodi explained it well. Are you ignoring where I agreed people are the problem, not the bijuu? Or that I'm talking about TOBI AND MADARA'S PLANS that would at teh least, be delayed? There is no other nuke or bijuu that Tobi or Madara can get their hands on, cuz if there were, they would be going after the other nuke too.

    There is no peace either if Tobi or Madara wins and puts people in their genjutsu. My logic tells us that killing the bijuu or finding SOME WAY to put them out of Tobi or Madara's hands is the only way to solve the current problem. Let me break it down for you again:


    bijuu was part of Juubi, the single most powerful thing in existence

    bad guys want Juubi to put people in genjutsu

    bad guys need bijuu to make Juubi
    • spare bijuu, bad guys can get bijuu

      bad guys getting bijuu means bijuu revived, bad guy become jinchuuriki, much powerful

      bad guy's plan succeeds because there's no plot armor, people under genjutsu

    or
    • kill bijuu, bad guys can't get bijuu

      no bijuu means no juubi, bad guys don't get super power

      without super power, bad guys are easier to kill

      the bijuu REGENERATE

      while bijuu regenerate, good guys establish peace forever

      bijuu finish regenerating, peace forever between everyone and chakra beings



    Which one sounds better? Bijuu cannot truly die, as the manga says. However, humans die and cannot come back to life naturally. I honestly don't know why I'm wasting time arguing with you given we're not on the same page. You're arguing about the shinobi world and peace, while I'm talking about the war, and preventing the bad guys from winning. You also seem to not take under consideration that bijuu can regenerate, if the manga is true.

    Honestly, it's like you're arguing about religion and politics, and I'm arguing about science vs. religion.

    You think it's okay to murder Bijuu, I disagree with that. What's so hard to understand, honestly?

    I never ignored anything. I'm trying to explain why it would be wrong to execute a conscious being, why that action alone is wrong. Not just for moral and emphatic reason but logical as well. You would destroy everything Naruto stands for and it would be for nothing because there would always be a potential threat of waging war regardless of the weapons. And if you destroy something that Naruto stands for, and real life as well, you would never have peace.

    You think the act of killing them would be erased if they could regenerate? I think you know how wrong that is.

  17. #944
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Exodi's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    You think it's okay to murder Bijuu, I disagree with that. What's so hard to understand, honestly?

    I never ignored anything. I'm trying to explain why it would be wrong to execute a conscious being, why that action alone is wrong. Not just for moral and emphatic reason but logical as well. You would destroy everything Naruto stands for and it would be for nothing because there would always be a potential threat of waging war regardless of the weapons. And if you destroy something that Naruto stands for, and real life as well, you would never have peace.

    You think the act of killing them would be erased if they could regenerate? I think you know how wrong that is.
    So, because people are going to wage war against each other anyway, they shouldn't try to get rid of extremely powerful beings that can (and have been) used as weapons and will regenerate even if they die?

    So, because Naruto says so, it's more logical to let a super powerful zombie become an even more powerful, immortal human?
    Instead of potentially stopping him by getting rid of the objects that are directly related to him becoming an almighty, evil immortal?

    I'm sure M3J agrees killing the bijuu is "wrong". I do, too. Like I said, no one would kill them if it weren't necessary. But that's not the point.
    And it kind of is necessary.

    The point is whether or not killing the beasts would put a stop to Tobi and Madara's plan.
    Logically, I think it would. Or at least hinder them.

    The humans in this manga can't come back to life. The bijuu can. Killing the bijuu is a tactic.
    It's a war. Bad and immoral stuff will happen. It sounds bad but in a war, sometimes logic > morality.

    Unless you are Naruto and you have the power to throw logic out like a bag of rotten trash.

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    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Roman's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

    Quote Originally Posted by Exodi View Post
    So, because people are going to wage war against each other anyway, they shouldn't try to get rid of extremely powerful beings that can (and have been) used as weapons and will regenerate even if they die?

    So, because Naruto says so, it's more logical to let a super powerful zombie become an even more powerful, immortal human?
    Instead of potentially stopping him by getting rid of the objects that are directly related to him becoming an almighty, evil immortal?

    I'm sure M3J agrees killing the bijuu is "wrong". I do, too. Like I said, no one would kill them if it weren't necessary. But that's not the point.
    And it kind of is necessary.

    The point is whether or not killing the beasts would put a stop to Tobi and Madara's plan.
    Logically, I think it would. Or at least hinder them.

    The humans in this manga can't come back to life. The bijuu can. Killing the bijuu is a tactic.
    It's a war. Bad and immoral stuff will happen. It sounds bad but in a war, sometimes logic > morality.

    Unless you are Naruto and you have the power to throw logic out like a bag of rotten trash.
    Of course. That's equivalent to killing innocent humans.

    Not just Naruto, that's how the real life works as well, which is why I brought Russia in the first place.
    That's the problem, they're not objects, immediatelly if they have conscious and are benevolent in nature. It's not their fault because someone wants to use them.

    No, it's not, obviously. You're reading the manga, right?

    I agree, it would. But it would be wrong morally, like I said many times.

    The Bijuu could be used tactically in Alliance's favor rather than kill them first. Which is exactly what happened with Naruto.
    I don't know if logic can be associated with the mere fact that Naruto equipped them and is now using them, or rather fighting with them, for the right cause.

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