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Thread: Bijuu, the Ninja World, and the Great Nuclear Allegory

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member badluckartist's Avatar
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    Bijuu, the Ninja World, and the Great Nuclear Allegory

    There's been some crazy-heated discussion on this matter that I don't think should just die like so many recent-chapter discussions.

    Let me clarify my stance on this real fast: I don't think Sasuke is wrong from his POV. He probably sees the bijuu as being part of the source of human conflict, and many IRL people seem to agree that threat-reduction in the form of magically vaporizing the laws of nuclear fission is the right way to go, as far as what Kishi is writing.

    While I don't believe Sasuke is necessarily wrong for what he's doing, I do want to draw a line between the characters' respective perceptions in-universe, and what is "right" (heavy quotes there) for a ninja fantasy allegory revolving around nuclear power. I do feel that Kishi purposefully wrote the bijuu as being perpetually-reincarnating because he wanted to draw a parallel between their existence and the forces of nature that govern nuclear bombs and other overwhelming weapons of war: much like the juubi's foreshadowed connection to natural energy, the means to destroy will always exist. Zabuza and Haku were explicitly narrated as "tools", the same way the bijuu are treated before Bee and Naruto. Even last-gen failures of jinchuuriki like Roshi figured there was more to the bijuu than the world takes at face value.

    I don't think this mechanic will be lost on the juubi because of a vague difference in physicality (or lack thereof). The juubi is described as the "progenitor of everything"; that's a pretty lofty title, even in this manga. It likely came before humanity and will be around long after in some form; it's up to humanity to break the cycle of hatred from within. Not rid itself of the "tools" that are used by hatred. Those tools include humans.

    Your thoughts?

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Bijuu, the Ninja World, and the Great Nuclear Allegory

    There are a few problems with this allegory IMO

    - First and foremost is, that while nuclear weapons come from the earth, the Biju come from the Juubi. The Juubi being the "progenitor of eveything" is fine and all, but it isn't a necessary part of the world (Earth). We know this, because the Sage ripped it to shreds, chucked it's body into orbit, and at one point all of it's pieces weren't present on Earth, and the Earth was fine. Humanity was fine, in fact it was better off. So let's not act like the Juubi and thus the Biju are necessary things that MUST be part of the world (until proven otherwise).

    (Dinosaurs were once part of this planet, and there time came and went.)

    - The Juubi =/= Earth. That much needs to be understood and accepted I think. To make matters worse, Obito tells us according to legend if the Juubi were ever revived it would essentially mean the end of the world as we know it.

    - The Kyuubi even backs up this statement here as told to him by the Sage.

    - So obviously this thing isn't the planet itself, because it'd essentially be destroying itself if it is, unless all the humans and animals on the planet aren't part of the planet too.

    After that the rest of the allegory between the Biju and Nuclear weapons pretty much makes sense. Only difference is, whereas in our world the elements that are used to create nuclear weapons are in a large abundance, the Biju are not. There are 9 of them. And originally there was only 1.

    Another thing I have an issue with

    - You claim that there is a vague difference in physicality between the the Biju and the Juubi but that obviously isn't the case. The Biju were given intelligence by the Sage, the Juubi has been described and has pretty much shown it is mindless and filled with nothing but rage. The Biju are making no excuses for it so I really don't think there is any.

    - Not to mention, again, the small fact that the Juubi actually has a physical body and the Biju do not. That cannot be overlooked. We cannot overlook the chance that the Juubi can actually be killed. The entire ninja alliance is aiming at that idea, which to me means that the possibility actually exists. Notice not one person has brought up that it can be brought back like the Biju can.

    - And let's not leave the small fact out that Obito tried to defend the Gedo Statue, meaning it can in fact be destroyed. If it can be destroyed I have a feeling the Juubi can be as well. It would act like a human in Naruto's world, destroy the body and the soul moves on. The Sage used the energy from that soul to create 9 being made of pure chakra, hence why they can't be killed, because their soul and body are one in the same.

    Looking at all of that, I think we have to make a few things clear.

    1) The Juubi and/or Biju don't need to be on this planet in order for it to survive

    2) The Juubi's presence essentially ensures the destruction of humanity and all life as we know it

    3) The Juubi can indeed be killed, it will just take a never before seen amount of effort and power

    Taking these things I've said into account, I have my thought process is broken into two spheres.

    1) - We use Manga Shounen Logic. By this I mean we ignore human nature and accept that total world peace is a possibility. We accept that all humans will follow in Naruto's footsteps, and that the plight of the Biju will be seen and sympathized with, and that the cycle of hatred can and will be broken.

    2) - We use real world logic, as in humans have great capacity for great good and great evil, and thus there will always be assholes on this planet for one reason or another.

    Obviously in Scenario 1 Sasuke is going to be seen as wrong because essentially in this manga if you aren't a tree hugging peace loving naive hippy who agrees with Naruto you will always be wrong. Fine, if the whole world can in fact be peaceful and nice to each other, sure, let the Biju remain. Let Naruto, who has no idea how to separate the Biju from the Juubi go forth and pull out some power from his ass to save the world. That's fine, let it happen even though it sounds horrible.

    But, things aren't so simple in Scenario 2. You claim that the Juubi is the progenitor of everything, essentially meaning it's a God. Allow me to make another allegory. If The Juubi is God, then his second coming means the end of the world, which means that the revival of the Juubi is supposed to happen, right? Human's aren't supposed to defy God and all. Not to mention the Juubi didn't create the Biju, meaning they don't belong here in the first place.

    Now, I don't think this is correct obviously given the fact I said the Juub isn't necessary for the survival of the world. But it raises the question, are the Biju meant to be on this planet?

    It's not a matter of them being sentient, or them being innocent. It's a matter of do they belong on this planet? And frankly, I think the answer is no, they don't.

    For starters, the Juubi and humans obviously can't live together. The Biju, are essentially intelligent mini Juubi's that are immortal. Despite their sentience, they suffer from the same things humans do. They have great capacity of good and evil. Meaning, not only do we pose a threat to them, but they pose a threat to us for the same reason. You can claim that they are wise and whatnot, but the fact still remains they get pissed off like humans do and then they nuke cities.

    Not only do they not belong on this planet, but humans obviously want to use them for weapons. Even if Naruto makes peace with the world, that peace won't be worldwide. Not to mention, it won't last forever. People will always try to hurt them and use them as weapons. Biju being the nukes, are the biggest weapons that are capable of being used, and in this case those weapons are immortal and have feelings. No one wants to live forever and during their entire span of existence be used as a weapon and locked in cages.

    Humans have enough problems with one another, they don't need a superior race of immortals to contend with as well.

    So, all the BS semantics we've discussed ad nauseum aside, I have two possible solutions. Before I give them to you, I think it needs to be understood that with either, one thing must remains consistent. The Gedo Statue must be destroyed. So, that aside, my two solutions are as follows.

    1) Kill the incomplete Juubi and thus kill 7 of the Biju. Exile the Kyuubi and Hachibi to another realm, planet or whatever, or

    2) Extract all 7, destroy the Gedo, and exile all 9 of them.

    Obviously option 2 is the more nice one, but in this case will probably lead to a lot more death. Either way, exile to me is the only way to go here.

    You may think this wrong, but again, I don't think the Biju belong on this planet. For their own sake and ours, a way has to be devised to put them somewhere where they won't be bothered and they can live peacefully, and where humans can never get to them again. It is for both our benefit and their that they don't live on this planet. There is no positive reason for us to live with them, none whatsoever. And IMO, I think they understand that and would be willing to leave.

    So basically, I think they need to leave. Them being on this planet or not doesn't solve the whole "cycle of hatred" nor does it correct the problem humans innately have, but it does make the world a safer place.
    Last edited by Delbi; June 27, 2013 at 12:14 AM.

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