Not a member? Register now!
Announcements
Manga returns! Catch up with the details. Enjoy downloading, translating, and scanlating manga HERE legally!
Like us on Facebook, follow us on Twitter! Celebrate another year with MH and read our yearbook.
Manga News: Check out this week's new manga (8/11/14 - 8/17/14).
Forum News: Visit new sections for Nisekoi and Kingdom!
Translations: Bleach 592 by BadKarma , Gintama 506 (2)

View Poll Results: Which team wins?

Voters
32. You may not vote on this poll
  • Team 13 (Love Aikawa, Sajin Komamura, Orihime Inoue)

    26 81.25%
  • Team 14 (Wonderweiss Margela, Ikkaku Madarame, Izuru Kira)

    6 18.75%
Thread Closed
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 37

Thread: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 13 vs Team 14

  1. #16
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Gourmet World
    Country
    Mariejoa
    Age
    26
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    4,423
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 13 vs Team 14

    Well, no matter how you look at it, Kensei should be stronger than either Komamura or Love, since Love never shoowed his Bankai and his Mask will go away in an instant the same way Mashiro's Mask did, when she confronted Wondy and with just Shikai he won't be able to deal enough damage to even wound Wondy, since he seemed to be damn tough. Also it seems that his negation ability works on Reiatsu-based attacks as well, since he managed to take down Kensei in his Bankai and be undamaged and also he managed to negate Hitsugaya's strongest Bankai attack and free Hallibel, so I don't really get how Lobe can do anything against him.

    And well... Koma... he isn't fast enough to react to Wondy's speed. His speed is at least on par or higher than Stark's and I can't see Komamura reacting to it. especially in Bankai, while Wondy is damn strong physically and his Reiatsu seems to be at least around Yamy's.

    Of course he isn't a tactician, but against Koma or Love with such a hax ability to negate Mask and Reiatsu-based attacks with his voice... he doesn't need to be one.

  2. #17
    ~ Forum Fixer ~ 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Miyagi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Country
    Winterfell
    Age
    27
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    4,065
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 13 vs Team 14

    I don't think Wonderweiss defeated Kensei unreleased, IIRC Wonderweiss was already in released form when he attacked Yamamoto. Wonderweiss has excellent regeneration and reflexes, he dodged Urahara's attack in KT, and he is also very fast, he took out Ukitake quite swiftly and came to Aizen's rescue on time when Yamamoto was about to punch his face, IMHO it will take the combined effort of Love and Komamura to defeat him. Love can distract WW while Komamura can crush him with KTM, it may not be as easy as it sounds though. I think Orihime is best suited as a healer and can fix Love if he takes damage. Once Ikkaku and Kira figure out what Orihime is capable of, I guess they'll focus their attention on her and Komamura will be forced to protect her against them. Can Love hold his own against Wonderweiss while Komamura and Orihime are taking care of Ikkaku and Kira? Possibly since Wonderweiss doesn't have the mental capacity to figure out Love is trying to avoid combat and only stalling him and once it's three vs one, it'll be too late for him. Perhaps Ikkaku and Kira attack Love and let Wonderweiss deal with the biggest threat, Komamura's bankai, but once Loves dons his hollow mask, I guess Ikkaku and Kira's chances are pretty slim.

  3. #18
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Gourmet World
    Country
    Mariejoa
    Age
    26
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    4,423
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 13 vs Team 14

    Well, I don't think Love can handle Wondy or stall him, since when his Masdk goes down the same way Mashiro's did, then he would be left with Shikai and it seems that Wondy can negate Reiatsu based abilities, so in such case I seriously doubt Love would stay alive long enough to buy enough time. And when he goes down, then Komamura would be left against Wondy. Even if he and Orihime would manage to take down both Ikkaku and Kira, they won't be able to handle Wondy on their own due to his insane speed and regeneration ability. I also doubt Komamura's Bankai is stronger than Wondy. Since Wondy was strong enough to punch Yama in insanely long distance and make his forehead bleed.
    The only option for Team 13 to survive is if both Love and Koma fight Wondy all-out from the start and it still might not be enough, because even though Wondy is a mindless beast, but he is an insanely strong beast. Especially in his Resureccion with his insane Regeneration. At the same time I do think Ikkaku and Kira might come to help, when they finish Inoue, since I don't believe she might even stall both of them long enough and when they come to help Wondy - they will surely make an opening for him to attack, thus making a great possibility for their respective Team to win this round.

  4. #19
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member zimbardo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Country
    Holy Britannian Empire
    Posts
    1,087
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 13 vs Team 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    Well, no matter how you look at it, Kensei should be stronger than either Komamura or Love
    I humbly disagree. Why 'should' he be stronger than either of them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    since Love never shoowed his Bankai and his Mask will go away in an instant the same way Mashiro's Mask did, when she confronted Wondy and with just Shikai he won't be able to deal enough damage to even wound Wondy, since he seemed to be damn tough.
    Well, in all fairness, Kensei didn't really 'show' his bankai either.
    Also Mashiro's mask didn't instantly go away. She was able to pound on Wonderweiss for quite a while before it disappeared. At best, his ability shortened the time that she could hold her mask up for.
    Also, I do not think it is fair to compare his shikai to Mashiro's hand to hand.
    Especially as he is a captain and she was not.

    Wonderweiss's biggest advantage against Love is not his hand to hand combat skills, or his negating abilities, but his ability to regenerate so rapidly.
    Perhaps this is enough to survive against Love for a long time - but not against hits from Kokujō Tengen Myō'ō.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    And well... Koma... he isn't fast enough to react to Wondy's speed. His speed is at least on par or higher than Stark's and I can't see Komamura reacting to it. especially in Bankai, while Wondy is damn strong physically and his Reiatsu seems to be at least around Yamy's.
    And well Koma what?
    Komamura has much more speed than he is given credit for.
    He has caught the sword swings of 3 different high level fighters (rushing to get in-between the 2 fighters) - Kenpachi v Tousen, Tousen v Shinji, Ichigo v Aizen.
    He was the first to reach Aizen after his betrayal.
    He was not massively speed blitzed by Tousen when hollowfied (beaten, but not through speed alone).
    In fact, no one has really speed blitzed Komamura - Aizen used KS to confuse him and cast the lvl 90 chantless kido.

    Now Wonderweiss isn't slow - as shown vs Ukitake or Yamamoto - but he only seems to move this quickly rarely.
    And Komamura is quite resilient to damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    I also doubt Komamura's Bankai is stronger than Wondy. Since Wondy was strong enough to punch Yama in insanely long distance and make his forehead bleed.
    in Bleach, being hit a long distance has never really been as dangerous as real life would make it seem.
    Komamura has also hit people significant distances with little effort.
    Also, although Yamamoto bleed (as he has done before - against the quincy for example), he wasn't really putting much effort in against Wonderweiss (he stood there and tanked many hits for example).

    The idea that Komamura's bankai is of comparable strength to Wonderweiss is not valid at all - especially if we consider the damage caused to Tousen's arm following a simple backhanded swing (not sword) from the giant. Now could Wonderweiss regenerate from this damage - quite possibly.
    But he isn't going to be able to continuously tank everything that the giant can throw at him.

    Wonderweiss has never really shown much strength - just speed, durability and insane regenerative abilities. As long as you can deal significant damage in a short time (read giant robot samurai bankai) then I can not see why he wouldn't go down if successfully hit (read not grazed).
    Last edited by zimbardo; July 02, 2013 at 04:30 AM.
    Infinite RAGE!

  5. #20
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Gourmet World
    Country
    Mariejoa
    Age
    26
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    4,423
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 13 vs Team 14

    zimbardo

    Quote Quote:
    I humbly disagree. Why 'should' he be stronger than either of them?
    Sorry, but even if we assume that Kensei and Love are at the same level of strength, but at the same time Kensei showed his Bankai, while Love didn't, so for the purpose of this Tournament Kensei can use it and Love can not use his own... That's an obvious choice, why at least in the current Tournament Love should be weaker.
    And about Komamura... I just don't really want to argue, but he is one of the weakest Captains just as a pure Shinigami. At the same time Kensei isn't only a Shinigami Captain who was already a Captain, when the same Byakuya or Komamura were kids, but he is as well Vaizard, so I don't really see how we can compare them. Of course I might be wrong, but that it why I said "should", not "must".

    Quote Quote:
    Well, in all fairness, Kensei didn't really 'show' his bankai either.
    Also Mashiro's mask didn't instantly go away. She was able to pound on Wonderweiss for quite a while before it disappeared. At best, his ability shortened the time that she could hold her mask up for.
    Also, I do not think it is fair to compare his shikai to Mashiro's hand to hand.
    Especially as he is a captain and she was not.
    Well, her Mask didn't go away, but at the same time her Mask is said to be able to last at least an hour! And it went down after less than a minute. At the same time all other Vaizards didn't show their Mask to last long, so it is logical to conclude that he can negate their Mask way faster than Mashiro's.
    Well, even if Love manages to get one clean hit with his Mask and Shikai he wouldn't be able to do much against Wondy, since the only thing he did against Stark was just a strong hit, but it practically didn't do anything in fact. It only gave an opening for Shunsui to attack. And I do believe that Wondy would negate his Mask considerably faster than Mashiro's since other Vaizards can keep their Mask even nearly as long as Mashiro.

    Quote Quote:
    Wonderweiss's biggest advantage against Love is not his hand to hand combat skills, or his negating abilities, but his ability to regenerate so rapidly.
    Perhaps this is enough to survive against Love for a long time - but not against hits from Kokujō Tengen Myō'ō.
    Well, I seriously doubt that Koma would be able to get a clean hit on Wondy, since Koma's Bankai isn't fast. Especially compared to Wondy's speed and well Wondy managed to regenerate after Yama's Single Bone quite easily and I don't see Koma's Bankai getting as good hit as Yama did, so I don't think how he can even put one, let alone multiple hits to finish Wondy off, especially since Wondy would also attack Koma.
    And well how come negation ability won't help against Love? If he negates his Mask, Love would be already considerably weaker in every aspect - speed, strength, Reiatsu... Also his negation abilities can help him negate Love's Shikai flames to some degree thus making his attacks even weaker and this can easily help him defeat Love, since it's quite obvious that if Love and Kensei are comparable if Wondy won against Kensei in Bankai, then he would obviously win against Love's Shikai quite easily.

    Quote Quote:
    And well Koma what?
    Komamura has much more speed than he is given credit for.
    He has caught the sword swings of 3 different high level fighters (rushing to get in-between the 2 fighters) - Kenpachi v Tousen, Tousen v Shinji, Ichigo v Aizen.
    He was the first to reach Aizen after his betrayal.
    1. Don't really get the point with him getting the first to Soukioku, since it isn't a speed fit. He might have been the closest one and that's all.
    2. Are you saying that during his fight vs Kenpachi (actuall Tousen and him against Kenpachi) he showed any speed fits? Especially since Kenpachi isn't a fast one.
    3. And don't really get about the connection between Ichigo vs Aizen and Komamura.

    Quote Quote:
    He was not massively speed blitzed by Tousen when hollowfied (beaten, but not through speed alone).
    In fact, no one has really speed blitzed Komamura - Aizen used KS to confuse him and cast the lvl 90 chantless kido.
    I like the first frase. You admit that he was speedblitzed, but then you say that he was beaten not but speed alone. We were talking about speed and if we talk about speed, then Komamura might be the slowest one among the current Captains, so don't really know how you want to proove otherwise.
    And well, when Aizen used his Hadou it isn't speed... Since we are not talking about Koma's speed, but about Koma and Aizen's Kidou.

    Koma never showed any speed fits and well, his Bankai is slow compared to Wondy's speed. The same Tousen if we talk about your examples was toying with Komamura the entire fight and could have finished him if not for his arrogance.

    Quote Quote:
    Now Wonderweiss isn't slow - as shown vs Ukitake or Yamamoto - but he only seems to move this quickly rarely.
    And Komamura is quite resilient to damage
    Well, we talk about ideal situations. When he was ordered to fight, he showed that he is a monster in his own right. His speed is too much for even Ukitake to react and he managed to match Yama's speed and that's a damn fit.
    And I seriously doubt that Komamura is resilent enough to win against such a strong opponent. And his high-speed regeneration will make him a victor, since most of his injuries would heal practically instantly, while I seriously doubt any of his opponents in this fight would manage to not only get a clean hit, but also one strong enough to deal significant damage as for him to not heal himself.

    Quote Quote:
    in Bleach, being hit a long distance has never really been as dangerous as real life would make it seem.
    Komamura has also hit people significant distances with little effort.
    Also, although Yamamoto bleed (as he has done before - against the quincy for example), he wasn't really putting much effort in against Wonderweiss (he stood there and tanked many hits for example).
    Well, his victory over Wondy in such an easy way was not to show that Wondy was weak and his attacks didn't pack strength, but to show that even without his Zan Yama is a monster. Wondy with just his bare fists took down two Captains who both are stronger than Komamura (Ukitake and Kensei) and Mashiro as well who seems to be at a minimum Captain level if she puts her Mask.

    Quote Quote:
    The idea that Komamura's bankai is of comparable strength to Wonderweiss is not valid at all - especially if we consider the damage caused to Tousen's arm following a simple backhanded swing (not sword) from the giant. Now could Wonderweiss regenerate from this damage - quite possibly.
    But he isn't going to be able to continuously tank everything that the giant can throw at him.
    Again, I seriously doubt that Komamura will even land a hit, left alone clean hit and left alone several or continious hits to be able to take down Wondy.

    Quote Quote:
    Wonderweiss has never really shown much strength - just speed, durability and insane regenerative abilities. As long as you can deal significant damage in a short time (read giant robot samurai bankai) then I can not see why he wouldn't go down if successfully hit (read not grazed).
    Well, I agree, Wondy never showed anything special. He just took down two Captains who both are stronger than Komamura (Ukitake and Kensei) and Mashiro as well who seems to be at a minimum Captain level if she puts her Mask, but that's not much of an achievment. Of course Koma showed way more.)

  6. #21
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Takahashi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Country
    Canada
    Age
    24
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    2,050
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 13 vs Team 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    Sorry, but even if we assume that Kensei and Love are at the same level of strength, but at the same time Kensei showed his Bankai, while Love didn't, so for the purpose of this Tournament Kensei can use it and Love can not use his own... That's an obvious choice, why at least in the current Tournament Love should be weaker.
    But we're only going off of what we've actually seen. We didn't see what Kensei's Bankai can do. In fact, we have very few feats from him in general. Love, on the other hand, has pretty good feats against Stark. Don't see how Kensei gets some kind of free label of being stronger, at least not for the purposes of the tournament.

    Quote Quote:
    And about Komamura... I just don't really want to argue, but he is one of the weakest Captains just as a pure Shinigami.
    I've never understood how people can rank Captains in such broad terms, and generally using different standards. Komamura certainly isn't "one of the weakest Captains" in terms of power, and power is exactly what Team 13 needs to fight WW's regeneration.

    Quote Quote:
    At the same time Kensei isn't only a Shinigami Captain who was already a Captain, when the same Byakuya or Komamura were kids, but he is as well Vaizard, so I don't really see how we can compare them. Of course I might be wrong, but that it why I said "should", not "must".
    Age is not a determinant for strength. I noticed that you mentioned Byakuya there. I shouldn't need to point out that he's the strongest head of his clan in its history. That includes Ginrei, his grandfather who was old as hell. There's also guys like Gin, killing third seats easily as a kid. And let's not forget Kidpachi, one of the most powerful people in the manga with a stolen bare sword.

    The only reason guys like Shunsui can get away with "senior hype" is because they've actually proven it to some degree. It doesn't just extent to everyone who's older.

  7. #22
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Gourmet World
    Country
    Mariejoa
    Age
    26
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    4,423
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 13 vs Team 14

    Quote Quote:
    But we're only going off of what we've actually seen. We didn't see what Kensei's Bankai can do. In fact, we have very few feats from him in general. Love, on the other hand, has pretty good feats against Stark. Don't see how Kensei gets some kind of free label of being stronger, at least not for the purposes of the tournament.
    Sorry, but what are Love's feats against Starrk? Hitting him once? And even though we didn't see much of Kensei's Bankai, but we still undestand that normally more or less even fighters like Kensei and Love if one showed Bankai and the other not, then the one who showed his own should make more damage than the other. Do you agree? Then it's logical that if Wondy defeated Kensei in Bankai, that he would obviously do the same against Love in Shikai? I think it's quite logical.

    Quote Quote:
    I've never understood how people can rank Captains in such broad terms, and generally using different standards. Komamura certainly isn't "one of the weakest Captains" in terms of power, and power is exactly what Team 13 needs to fight WW's regeneration.
    I don't know if it's my bad english or what...
    I seriously doubt that overall if we take a Captain like Komamura and Kensei who was already a Captain 200 years ago and then he became a Vaizard and that would obviously give him and insane boost in terms of Reiatsu and with Mask not only his Reiatsu, but also speed and physical power increase. At the same time during all those years when he and other Vaizards were training he should have trained both his Shinigami and Vaizard powers in order to fight Aizen and his henchmen, so I don't really get why Komamura should be at the same level as Kensei or higher.

    Quote Quote:
    Age is not a determinant for strength. I noticed that you mentioned Byakuya there. I shouldn't need to point out that he's the strongest head of his clan in its history. That includes Ginrei, his grandfather who was old as hell. There's also guys like Gin, killing third seats easily as a kid. And let's not forget Kidpachi, one of the most powerful people in the manga with a stolen bare sword.
    My point was that even then he was already strong, while after that he gained Hollowfication and futher control over it and his Shinigami powers (of course the later might be doubtful. but still), so I do think it's logical to compare him and Komamura in such regard.
    Ginrei is a bad example, since as Aizen said all Shinigami have their limit and it seems that Ginrei's limit is this. I adressed Byakuya and Komamura in that regard, because back then , when Kensei was already a Shinigami Captain they were just kids, while he also managed to power up pretty much. Also in the last War Byakuya and Komamura went Bankai, while at the same time Kensei didn't even show going in Shikai... So don't really get why you are against my argument. I don't really say that it's a rule that the one who is older is always stronger, but it works for most of the cases. Byakuya, Gin, Toshiro and Ichigo as well as Aizen we said to be prodigies. The same Komamura was never addressed as such.

    Quote Quote:
    The only reason guys like Shunsui can get away with "senior hype" is because they've actually proven it to some degree. It doesn't just extent to everyone who's older.
    Well, I never stated otherwise in my argument. It's the other way round. I normally say precisely this.

  8. #23
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member zimbardo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Country
    Holy Britannian Empire
    Posts
    1,087
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 13 vs Team 14

    Please excuse me for reorganizing your post - it just makes it easier to discuss the relevant points.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    zimbardoSorry, but even if we assume that Kensei and Love are at the same level of strength

    And well how come negation ability won't help against Love? If he negates his Mask, Love would be already considerably weaker in every aspect - speed, strength, Reiatsu... Also his negation abilities can help him negate Love's Shikai flames to some degree thus making his attacks even weaker and this can easily help him defeat Love, since it's quite obvious that if Love and Kensei are comparable if Wondy won against Kensei in Bankai, then he would obviously win against Love's Shikai quite easily.
    If we assume they are.
    I never said it wouldn’t help. I am not sure how much they will effect Love’s Shikai flames – Wonderwise was designed specifically against Ryuujinjakka’s flames (not Love’s).
    I accept that perhaps his ability could help a bit, but the degree is highly subjective.
    I also am not stating that Love will win solely by himself – but to state that he has no chance if damaging Wonderweiss is quite unfair.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    Kensei showed his Bankai, while Love didn't, so for the purpose of this Tournament Kensei can use it and Love can not use his own... That's an obvious choice, why at least in the current Tournament Love should be weaker.
    Missing my point. Kensei showed his bankai’s appearance (and name) but not its abilities. We have absolutely no knowledge of the effects of his bankai.
    We have no idea if it hit Wonderweiss, or the extent of the damage caused.
    So, for the purpose of this tournament he can use it, but it doesn’t help him at all – as we don’t know what it can, or can not, do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    And about Komamura... I just don't really want to argue, but he is one of the weakest Captains just as a pure Shinigami.

    Well, I seriously doubt that Koma would be able to get a clean hit on Wondy, since Koma's Bankai isn't fast.

    Wondy managed to regenerate after Yama's Single Bone quite easily and I don't see Koma's Bankai getting as good hit as Yama did, so I don't think how he can even put one, let alone multiple hits to finish Wondy off, especially since Wondy would also attack Koma.

    I like the first frase. You admit that he was speedblitzed, but then you say that he was beaten not but speed alone. We were talking about speed and if we talk about speed, then Komamura might be the slowest one among the current Captains, so don't really know how you want to proove otherwise.
    And well, when Aizen used his Hadou it isn't speed... Since we are not talking about Koma's speed, but about Koma and Aizen's Kidou.

    Koma never showed any speed fits and well, his Bankai is slow compared to Wondy's speed. The same Tousen if we talk about your examples was toying with Komamura the entire fight and could have finished him if not for his arrogance.

    And I seriously doubt that Komamura is resilent enough to win against such a strong opponent. And his high-speed regeneration will make him a victor, since most of his injuries would heal practically instantly, while I seriously doubt any of his opponents in this fight would manage to not only get a clean hit, but also one strong enough to deal significant damage as for him to not heal himself.

    two Captains who both are stronger than Komamura (Ukitake and Kensei)

    Again, I seriously doubt that Komamura will even land a hit, left alone clean hit and left alone several or continious hits to be able to take down Wondy.
    I will take these as I have ordered them.
    1/ Solely your opinion. No evidence at all. Unless you count losing to Aizen twice and Hollowfied Tousen once, evidence of him being the weakest?
    2/ Again, solely your opinion. Komamura’s bankai copies his movements exactly. Unless it slows down Komamura, then it will move as fast as he moves. He hit Hollowfied Tousen, who is insanely fast. Komamura’s bankai is not slow.
    3/ Komamura’s bankai =/= Yamamoto’s Single Bone. There is no evidence at all to suggest that it would be weaker in its attacks.
    Wonderweiss attacking makes no difference. Tousen was attacking and still he was hit.
    4/ Thanks, but I’d rather you didn’t ignore the rest of the point.
    And no, I do not admit that he was speedblitzed. I believe that the speed of Tousen made it very difficult to hit him – as shown by Tousen dodging the sword swing and Komamura having to resort to a backhander to hit him.
    Again, you have no evidence at all to back up your claim of Komamura being one of the slowest captains. More on this later.
    The Aizen Hadou point was exactly that, it was to show that even Aizen did not speedblitz Komamura.
    5/ Again with the Komamura being slow…
    As for Tousen toying with Komamura, again this is subjective and I do not agree. Tousen went full hollow as he was irritated by Komamura looking down on him.
    6/ Komamura is resilient enough to quickly get up from being hit by Aizen. He has more resilience feats in this manga than almost any other character – to deny this is madness.
    A clean hit will be “strong enough to deal significant damage”. That is the whole idea behind Komamura’s bankai. That is why Tousen chided him for that way of thinking. I also see no reason why he won’t be able to land a clean hit. Wonderweiss isn’t much of a dodger.
    Wonderweiss’s regenerative ability, however, is strong. I do not doubt his strength.
    7/ In your opinion. Now, I also believe that Ukitake should be stronger, but I understand that with manga-shown feats alone, this is not possible to show at all.
    8/ You doubt this because you doubt Komamura. He is not slow, is strong, and is very adept at kenjutsu.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    1. Don't really get the point with him getting the first to Soukioku, since it isn't a speed fit. He might have been the closest one and that's all.
    2. Are you saying that during his fight vs Kenpachi (actuall Tousen and him against Kenpachi) he showed any speed fits? Especially since Kenpachi isn't a fast one.
    3. And don't really get about the connection between Ichigo vs Aizen and Komamura.
    1/ Or he may have been the furthest away. Fact is, he got there first. If he came from where he fought Kenpachi (I don't think he did - but still), then the hill is pretty far away.

    2/Yes, this one. Komamura isn’t there, Kenpachi begins his swing. Poof, Komamura is there to protect, even before the swing is finished. Also, Kenpachi may not be quick in movement, but his sword swings have never been slow.

    3/ I mean this - though I guess it isn't really a speed feat per se.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    At the same time Kensei isn't only a Shinigami Captain who was already a Captain, when the same Byakuya or Komamura were kids, but he is as well Vaizard, so I don't really see how we can compare them. Of course I might be wrong, but that it why I said "should", not "must".
    Age =/= Strength. It is irrelevant that he was a captain before them.
    The Visard strength is considerable. However, the degree to which it strengthens you is subjective.
    “Should” is not the right word to use – perhaps you should add that in your opinion he should. The way you use ‘should’ implies ‘must’.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    Well, her Mask didn't go away, but at the same time her Mask is said to be able to last at least an hour! And it went down after less than a minute. At the same time all other Vaizards didn't show their Mask to last long, so it is logical to conclude that he can negate their Mask way faster than Mashiro's.

    And I do believe that Wondy would negate his Mask considerably faster than Mashiro's since other Vaizards can keep their Mask even nearly as long as Mashiro.
    1/ It is impossible to say how long it took, just that it was quicker than it should have been.
    I also have not denied that he can speed up the rate at which masks disappear.
    2/ I agree with this and have never stated otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    Well, even if Love manages to get one clean hit with his Mask and Shikai he wouldn't be able to do much against Wondy, since the only thing he did against Stark was just a strong hit, but it practically didn't do anything in fact. It only gave an opening for Shunsui to attack.
    Stark =/= Wonderweiss.
    Also, I do not think that he will only be able to land 1 clean hit.
    Wonderweiss tends to rush headlong towards attackers. Stark, however, tends to dodge and keep the range. Wonderweiss is much easier to hit in this scenario, for a close combatant, than Stark is (or was).

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    Well, we talk about ideal situations. When he was ordered to fight, he showed that he is a monster in his own right. His speed is too much for even Ukitake to react and he managed to match Yama's speed and that's a damn fit.
    Again, I am not doubting his speed. I accept that he is fast. However, he doesn’t tend to maintain this speed constantly throughout the fight.
    Also, I believe that the Ukitake business was just to hype up Wonderweiss before he fought Yamamoto, so that Yamamoto could be hyped by association. Not once did he use this speed against Mashiro.
    Infinite RAGE!

  9. #24
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Gourmet World
    Country
    Mariejoa
    Age
    26
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    4,423
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 13 vs Team 14

    zimbardo
    Quote Quote:
    If we assume they are.
    I never said it wouldn’t help. I am not sure how much they will effect Love’s Shikai flames – Wonderwise was designed specifically against Ryuujinjakka’s flames (not Love’s).
    I accept that perhaps his ability could help a bit, but the degree is highly subjective.
    I also am not stating that Love will win solely by himself – but to state that he has no chance if damaging Wonderweiss is quite unfair.
    Well my point was that in order to take down Wondy they will need to cooperate (Love and Koma). From what shown in the manga by those three individually I can't see either Love or Koma taking down Wondy individually. That's how I see the facts presented in the manga. I might be wrong, but that's how I see it.

    Quote Quote:
    1/ Solely your opinion. No evidence at all. Unless you count losing to Aizen twice and Hollowfied Tousen once, evidence of him being the weakest?
    well, of course it's my opinion. It is how I interprete the facts that are shown in the manga. Again, I never said he was the weakest. I said one of the weakest. If you think that he is one of the strongest, then present me those who he managed to defeat in order for me to change my opinion.

    Quote Quote:
    2/ Again, solely your opinion. Komamura’s bankai copies his movements exactly. Unless it slows down Komamura, then it will move as fast as he moves. He hit Hollowfied Tousen, who is insanely fast. Komamura’s bankai is not slow.
    Again, Komamura as he is isn't fast. I would say he is one of the slowest among Captains. I would even dare to say that there might be some VC who might not loose to him in terms of speed. At the same time your example with Tousen... I don't think it's a good example. I think Tousen was toying with Koma their entire fight. He actually lost to Tousen and wasn't killed only because Tousen wanted not only to win but to show off and humilate Koma.

    Quote Quote:
    3/ Komamura’s bankai =/= Yamamoto’s Single Bone. There is no evidence at all to suggest that it would be weaker in its attacks.
    Wonderweiss attacking makes no difference. Tousen was attacking and still he was hit.
    My point about Single Bone was that it was a close-range attack that is very difficult to evade, while at the same time Koma's Bankai speed isn't as impressive as Yama's.
    And how Wondy attacking makes no difference? I do believe that his speed is better than Tousen's, so no way Koma would be able to land a clean hit, while Wondy needs several hits to make Komamura weaker and slower and then it would be an end. Koma is resilent, but I seriously doubt he can fight with multiple injuries like pierced gut or anything else, since he would be bleeding and loosing his power and speed quite fast.

    Quote Quote:
    4/ Thanks, but I’d rather you didn’t ignore the rest of the point.
    And no, I do not admit that he was speedblitzed. I believe that the speed of Tousen made it very difficult to hit him – as shown by Tousen dodging the sword swing and Komamura having to resort to a backhander to hit him.
    Again, you have no evidence at all to back up your claim of Komamura being one of the slowest captains. More on this later.
    Well, if he isn't one of the slowest, than who is slower than him? Byakuya, Soi Fong, Hitsugaya, Shunsui, Ukitake? Again, compared to other fighters he never showed speed fits. You say I fail to present any arguments, while your only one is his fight against Tousen who was just toying with Koma wanting to show all of his improvements, where Koma struggled not to die in a first minute and still loosing this fight quite patetically.

    Quote Quote:
    The Aizen Hadou point was exactly that, it was to show that even Aizen did not speedblitz Komamura.
    Why did Aizen need to speedblitz him? If he could use Hadou 90 against him, he didn't need to speedblitz him.

    Quote Quote:
    5/ Again with the Komamura being slow…
    As for Tousen toying with Komamura, again this is subjective and I do not agree. Tousen went full hollow as he was irritated by Komamura looking down on him.
    Well all your argument is to state your own opinion, while saying that all that I'm writing is subjective. But isn't your's the same? It's how we see the facts presented in the manga. Yes I do see that Tousen was toying with Koma and I clearly don't see him going full Hollow, because he needed it. Koma looked down on him not because Koma was stronger or managed to cope with Masdk Tousen, but because of Koma's pride as Shinigami and that's quite a different thing in terms of argument.

    Quote Quote:
    6/ Komamura is resilient enough to quickly get up from being hit by Aizen. He has more resilience feats in this manga than almost any other character – to deny this is madness.
    Again, you are just changing what I wrote. I never said he isn't resilent. I stated that I doubt that he is resilent enough. And that's quite a different thing. What did Koma showed in terms of resilense? He managed to tank a Hadou from Aizen that packed only 1/3 of its power and several hits from Tousen (and after Tousen's attacks he wasn't even stanbding). At the same time Yama managed to tank several hits from Wondy and then managed to tank his entire Shikai explosion that could have destroyed an entire city and was still able to perform higher Kidou than Komamura barely managed to tank. The same Isshin took a hit from some sort of a beam tech from evolved Aizen and managed not only to stand up quite fast, but seemed way less injured than Koma and after that even managed to give Ichi an oportunity to stay in Dangai for entire 3 months keeping Dangai's time in its place with his Reiatsu. The same Aizen took Bankai + Mask Getsuga from Ichigo and was quite ok even though Hougioku helped him later to regenerate, but it was still his own fit to stay on his legs after such a strong attack. Or Shunsui who was hit by Starrk's (released) attack in his back and was absolutely unscatted and played dead, because he didn't want to fight.
    My point about Koma's resilense was that in order to fight such opponent as Wondy who managed to take 2 Captains (one in Bankai and one in Shikai and the later in one-shot by piercing his gut) and one Captain-level person, he needs to be able to not only be insanely resilent, but actually be able to really fight after having his gut pierced and having several more wounds, while needing to cope with insane speed and that would make him tired quite fast, since he would be bleeding.

    So, I hope now you do get my point now.

    Quote Quote:
    A clean hit will be “strong enough to deal significant damage”. That is the whole idea behind Komamura’s bankai. That is why Tousen chided him for that way of thinking. I also see no reason why he won’t be able to land a clean hit. Wonderweiss isn’t much of a dodger.
    Wonderweiss’s regenerative ability, however, is strong. I do not doubt his strength.
    Again it seems we differ in the most basic things. I doubt Koma can get a clean hit and I also doubt one clean hit will finish Wondy.

    Quote Quote:
    7/ In your opinion. Now, I also believe that Ukitake should be stronger, but I understand that with manga-shown feats alone, this is not possible to show at all.
    Well, I don't really get your point. I'm always pointing that it's my opinion. Why do you need to repeat it every time.
    Anyway if you think that Koma is stronger than either Ukitake or Kensei, then why should we even argue, since it seems that we won't change our opinions on this matter.

    Quote Quote:
    8/ You doubt this because you doubt Komamura. He is not slow, is strong, and is very adept at kenjutsu.
    Sorry, I couldn't help myself. I would still your frase here - "It's your opinion".

    Quote Quote:
    1/ Or he may have been the furthest away. Fact is, he got there first. If he came from where he fought Kenpachi (I don't think he did - but still), then the hill is pretty far away.
    So you just bring something that can't be completly prooved by you saying that it is his fit, while completly disregarding any logical doubts about it? And the thing that he got there first doesn't proove your point, since we don't know, where he was before. We do know that he went to Yama, when he felt that he was fighting somewhere, so there is completly illogical to bring this point in this discussion and especially to show it as a proof of his speed fits.

    Quote Quote:
    2/Yes, this one. Komamura isn’t there, Kenpachi begins his swing. Poof, Komamura is there to protect, even before the swing is finished. Also, Kenpachi may not be quick in movement, but his sword swings have never been slow.
    Well, Kenpachi didn't even want to kill Tousen. He barely even hit him, cause if he did Koma's arm would be cut down, so I also doubt that it can be count as a speed fit.

    Quote Quote:
    3/ I mean this - though I guess it isn't really a speed feat per se.
    Well, I don't really know what to say. Sorry, but I don't think any of these three points can be count as serious speed fits.

    Quote Quote:
    Age =/= Strength. It is irrelevant that he was a captain before them.
    The Visard strength is considerable. However, the degree to which it strengthens you is subjective.
    “Should” is not the right word to use – perhaps you should add that in your opinion he should. The way you use ‘should’ implies ‘must’.
    Ok, so you not only lecture me about what I say beeing my opinion and I'm wrong, but you also lecture me on my english. It's quite rude. At least in my country.
    Especially since, when you write your subjective opinion you present it as a manga fact and don't want for it to be accapted otherwise.

    Now about age and strength. Of course Age isn't an equivalent of strength. At the same time it's more often in this manga that the older ones are the strongest ones. Even though we have the likes of Ichigo, Aizen, Gin, Byakuya and Hitsugaya doesn't deny the fact that if you were a Captain 200 years ago and it seems to be a strong one and then getting Hollowfication and mastering it as well as getting better with your Shinigami abilities in 200 years... it should be logical that you will be stronger.

    Quote Quote:
    1/ It is impossible to say how long it took, just that it was quicker than it should have been.
    I also have not denied that he can speed up the rate at which masks disappear.
    WQell, we've seen their entire fight and it was damn quick, so I don't know why we can't say how long did it take for him. Especially since we 've seen, when he screamed.

    Quote Quote:
    Stark =/= Wonderweiss.
    Also, I do not think that he will only be able to land 1 clean hit.
    Wonderweiss tends to rush headlong towards attackers. Stark, however, tends to dodge and keep the range. Wonderweiss is much easier to hit in this scenario, for a close combatant, than Stark is (or was).
    Of course Starrk isn't Wondy. He never achieved anything close enough as Wondy did. Also you should take in account that even Staark himself stated about Wondy, that if he came, then Aizen really wants to end it quickly. So it should be logical that Wondy was one of the biggest assests not only because he was able to seal Yama's Zan, but also because he was considered to be one of the strongest out there.
    Well, Wondy did show better speed, than Stark, since Ukitake was quite capable of keeping with Staark's speed, while he was easily speedblitzed by Wondy.
    And precisely because of this I can't see Koma beeing able to cope with his speed, since I seriously can't see Koma beeing able to cope with what Ukitake couldn't.

    Quote Quote:
    Again, I am not doubting his speed. I accept that he is fast. However, he doesn’t tend to maintain this speed constantly throughout the fight.
    Also, I believe that the Ukitake business was just to hype up Wonderweiss before he fought Yamamoto, so that Yamamoto could be hyped by association. Not once did he use this speed against Mashiro.
    Well, when noone tends to maintain insane speed entire fight. Even Yoruichi and Soi Fong, so I don't think it's the big point here. Especially since Komamura isn't as fast as him, so it won't be a problem even if he doesn't maintain such speed all the fight.
    Well, Mashiro's case might be a bit different, since he didn't consider her as an opponent before she killed his pet and kicked him with Mashiro Kick. After that he got serious. AT the same time he was quite serious against both Ukitake and Kensei. And we know that both of them lost.

    P.S. It seems we won't get to understand each other's position on this topic.

  10. #25
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member zimbardo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Country
    Holy Britannian Empire
    Posts
    1,087
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 13 vs Team 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    zimbardo
    P.S. It seems we won't get to understand each other's position on this topic.
    I guess not and I really don't think I can be bothered to write another wall of text.

    Would, however, love it if you could post some manga pages showing him, or his bankai, being slow.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    Again, Komamura as he is isn't fast. I would say he is one of the slowest among Captains. I would even dare to say that there might be some VC who might not loose to him in terms of speed.
    ...
    Well, if he isn't one of the slowest, than who is slower than him? Byakuya, Soi Fong, Hitsugaya, Shunsui, Ukitake? Again, compared to other fighters he never showed speed fits.
    Nice that you bring up Soi Fong (compared to Yoruichi - the goddess of flash), Byakuya (known for his superior shunpo techniques - taught by Yoruichi) and Shunsui and Ukitake (who were praised by Yamamoto).
    Hitsuguya however has never shown any real speed feats. Nor have Unohana, Shinji, Urahara, any of the royal guards except Tenjirō Kirinji... So calling him the slowest, to the extent that "there might be some VC who might not loose to him in terms of speed" seems somewhat unfair.

    Perhaps if there was some manga pages of him rushing against other captains to support your speed claim??

    Also, about him beating strong characters...

    Who, except Ichigo, has beaten Aizen? Do you consider Tousen in hollowfied form to be weak? Who else beat a Sternritter (except Ichigo and Yamamoto?)...
    Perhaps you should change your criterion for who is strong and who is not...

    I guess, if he had been lucky like Hitsuguya, or Byakuya, and fought characters whose sole purpose in this manga wasn't to hype up how much of a threat there was to SS and the real world...

    Before this gets too off-topic, I will stop here.
    I do not consider that Komamura is the strongest captain, but I certainly do not rank him one of the weakest - based on his previous fights.
    I will end by linking to Torrans well thought out post on Komamura's strength (from earlier in this tournament). Read it if you care.
    Infinite RAGE!

  11. #26
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member xXAshisogiJizoXx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    401
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 13 vs Team 14

    To say intercepting a sword mid swing isn't a speed feat means you are looking at things the way you want to. Maybe everything is interpretation, but there is more reasonable and less reasonable interpretations, and that is a less reasonable one. You are also basing WW's speed on primarily one move that he never replicated, against someone with almost no speed feats. How is Koma slower than Ukitake? Or Mayuri? Or Hitsu? Love? Rose? Kensei? Kenpachi? Gin? Pre Hollow Tousen? Unohana even? Frankly it seems like you are coming to stereotypical conclusion of big is slow.

    Some of WW's "best" feats:
    --Blitzing a captain while said captain was not in a defensive posture, while WW himself was also in a passive posture, combined with Ukitake's view on children.
    --Punching Yama a million times and doing far less damage than Driscoll using Sasakibe's weakened bankai. This is incredibly unimpressive.
    --1 completely offscreen victory over a bankai whose mechanics we know nothing about. Means almost nothing as far as explaining HOW WW will win, which is the point of these discussion.
    --Having a very prolonged fight against a VC vaizard with no zanpakto.
    --Being distracted by a dragon fly (and seemingly took some time to catch it.....)
    None of these seem to show WW capable of taking out a prepared Captain quick enough before the double/triple team up.
    Not Perfect is GOoD

  12. Like 1 Member(s) likes this post
  13. #27
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner lyght's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Country
    United States
    Age
    18
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    38
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 13 vs Team 14

    also i forgot that orihime's shield can hide spiritual pressure now. it was shown when she hid the tres beastas, it only got cancelled by opie's rashi inslavement or whatever. so she can hide if that helps her.

  14. #28
    MH Senpai 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Wowzers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Country
    Canada
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,971
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 13 vs Team 14

    I'll let you guys duke it out over the other characters but I am sensing a under-rating of Orihime. I think she could very easily defeat Kira by just throwing a force field over him... make it skin tight so no air in it. He'd be like a fly in amber. I seriously doubt he has the physical strength to break out. If he could somehow use his shikai on it... he'd just crush himself.

  15. Like 1 Member(s) likes this post
  16. #29
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Country
    Austria
    Age
    22
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    79
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 13 vs Team 14

    When I first saw this match, I thought Team 14 takes this.. I am surprised that everyone favors team 13.

    The big disadvantage in my eyes is, that Komamura in Bankai and Love in Shikai have very heavy and big Zanpakutos, and while they are distracted from Ikkaku and Wonderweiß, Kira bumps in from time to time with Wabisuke and attacks the two Zanpakutos, until they are too heavy to hold for Koma and Love.
    Would be an easy win :I

  17. Like 1 Member(s) likes this post
  18. #30
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member zimbardo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Country
    Holy Britannian Empire
    Posts
    1,087
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Team 13 vs Team 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Amigo View Post
    When I first saw this match, I thought Team 14 takes this.. I am surprised that everyone favors team 13.
    Don't worry, with Komamura on team 13, everyone will vote for 14 regardless of what people argue for either side.

    The fun is in the arguing and not necessarily in the 'winning'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Amigo View Post
    The big disadvantage in my eyes is, that Komamura in Bankai and Love in Shikai have very heavy and big Zanpakutos, and while they are distracted from Ikkaku and Wonderweiß, Kira bumps in from time to time with Wabisuke and attacks the two Zanpakutos, until they are too heavy to hold for Koma and Love.
    Would be an easy win :I
    Well, in all fairness, Komamura's Zanpakuto isn't any bigger than anyone else's. If you mean the one that his bankai holds, then that just follows the movements that he makes with his regular sized zanpakuto. Who knows what happens if the bankai's sword becomes heavier (would it affect the sword Komamura is holding?).
    Also, Komamura is one of the strongest (physically) of the captains, or at least has shown many feats of strength (such as throwing Po [?]).

    Quick question - would Orihime be able to reject the weight increase?
    Last edited by zimbardo; July 03, 2013 at 03:11 AM.
    Infinite RAGE!

  19. Like 1 Member(s) likes this post
Thread Closed
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts