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Thread: This War Arc is a hint to the redemption of the Uchiha Clan <3

  1. #31
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    Re: This War Arc is a hint to the redemption of the Uchiha Clan

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchy View Post
    The Senju and Uchiha built the village, and the other clans followed. Madara was Konoha's councilor before the village even existed. He even gave it the name it bares. Hiruzen himself said that even as a small child, Itachi had the wisdom of a Hokage. But instead of giving him a more productive role like Hokage's bodyguard, the council made him a spy. Hiruzen might not have known the finer details of what Danzo was up to, but he wasn't so naive to believe that Danzo's actions were always just.
    The mere fact they were involved in the founding of the village doesn't entitle them to lead it. And this nonsense about Madara being Konoha's councillor before the village existed emerged from what exactly? He named the village, yes. Then he attempted to destroy it, how does any of that entitle his clan to a seat as a councillor? And as I pointed out, the status of the Uchiha is pretty meaningless in this regard since we don't know how the council itself is formed. They could be elected by clan leaders, or shinobi, or they could've just randomly ended up in the positions. And Hokage bodyguard would've been a productive role? Really? Have we seen any Hokage bodyguards that are considered to be of some import? That would've just been a waste of Itachi's abilities. And the council made him a spy because he was the one of only ones suited for the task, it wasn't as though there were a lot of talented Uchiha up for the job. And I didn't suggest that Hiruzen though Danzo was harmless, I simply stated that he was unaware of the full extent of Danzo's actions, much in the same way he remained woefully ignorant of Orochimaru for so long. And once again, getting rid of Danzo would likely have been far easier said than done.

  2. #32
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    Re: This War Arc is a hint to the redemption of the Uchiha Clan

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    The mere fact they were involved in the founding of the village doesn't entitle them to lead it. And this nonsense about Madara being Konoha's councillor before the village existed emerged from what exactly? He named the village, yes. Then he attempted to destroy it, how does any of that entitle his clan to a seat as a councillor? And as I pointed out, the status of the Uchiha is pretty meaningless in this regard since we don't know how the council itself is formed. They could be elected by clan leaders, or shinobi, or they could've just randomly ended up in the positions. And Hokage bodyguard would've been a productive role? Really? Have we seen any Hokage bodyguards that are considered to be of some import? That would've just been a waste of Itachi's abilities. And the council made him a spy because he was the one of only ones suited for the task, it wasn't as though there were a lot of talented Uchiha up for the job. And I didn't suggest that Hiruzen though Danzo was harmless, I simply stated that he was unaware of the full extent of Danzo's actions, much in the same way he remained woefully ignorant of Orochimaru for so long. And once again, getting rid of Danzo would likely have been far easier said than done.
    If you think it's fair that a group of people who invested heavily in the development of their village should have no say in its direction or future, then we should stop here. When Madara and Hashirama had talks about the village atop the Hokage mountain, they were yet to form a government that was recognised by the Land of Fire, hence my statement. Madara did not build Konoha on his own. The Uchiha were just as much against his actions as the Senju, but I suppose they should be tarred with the same brush. The Kage summit showed us that Kage's bodyguard is a prestigious role given only to the most trusted shinobi, so I'm not sure what you're on about. Back to my original point, which was that making an Uchiha a council member may have been a better solution that employing Itachi to massacre his clan.

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  4. #33
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    Re: This War Arc is a hint to the redemption of the Uchiha Clan

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchy View Post
    If you think it's fair that a group of people who invested heavily in the development of their village should have no say in its direction or future, then we should stop here. When Madara and Hashirama had talks about the village atop the Hokage mountain, they were yet to form a government that was recognised by the Land of Fire, hence my statement. Madara did not build Konoha on his own. The Uchiha were just as much against his actions as the Senju, but I suppose they should be tarred with the same brush. The Kage summit showed us that Kage's bodyguard is a prestigious role given only to the most trusted shinobi, so I'm not sure what you're on about. Back to my original point, which was that making an Uchiha a council member may have been a better solution that employing Itachi to massacre his clan.
    Having a say, and being a village councillor are two entirely different things. And Madara and Hashirama talking isn't Madara being a councillor of/for Konoha; it's him having a personal conversation with the man who would later go on to become Hokage. And once again, my comments have never touched on my views, or the opinions of Konoha's leaders, of the Uchiha, as I've said, they're irrelevant to what I addressed; specifically the identity of the councillors. You stated that Hiruzen should've appointed an Uchiha as councillor, I questioned why they should be entitled to such a position over others, and whether or not this point was even valid considering that we don't know how the councillors come to gain their position. I've little desire to get into a long discussion about the Uchiha, and the morality of their actions or those taken against them. Been there, done that. I simply pointed out that fault you were attributing to Hiruzen was unfair, and misplaced. The Kage Summit showed you that bodyguards are prestigious, really? The only thing that I gleaned from the selection were that bodyguards were loyal to the Kage they served and suited for the task, often with unique abilities that made them as such. The war showed us that there are a lot of ninja higher ranked, and more respected than they are. Add that to the fact that the Kages rarely leave their villages, and those bodyguards probably wouldn't have much work to do most of the time. Take a look at Minato's former bodyguards to see how far that gets you. And back to my original point, how do we know that the selection of councillors had anything to do with Hiruzen?

  5. #34
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    Re: This War Arc is a hint to the redemption of the Uchiha Clan

    Quote Originally Posted by kckk
    The clan did do something wrong.
    No they didn't. Madara did.


    Quote Quote:
    Their alternative to the crap they have gone through was to support madara and plan a coup.
    No it wasn't. The coup was planned years after Madara had died. It was only brought about after the Uchiha began seeing what kind of ninja Tobirama truly was and, by the time he was dead, their anger was too potent to ignore.

    Quote Quote:
    Konoha's leadership might not have seen the uchiha in the best of lights or been completely fair to them however it does by no means justify the coup and probable war that would have followed. The issue here is the neverending cycle of stupid. Basically someone does something and the response to that is something of equal or greater stupidity. Looking at everything we have the following:
    You don't know that because we never saw what lead to the coup outside of Tobirama being a bigot asshole. Which IMO could be more than enough.

    Quote Quote:
    1.- Konoha is founded (yay)
    2.- Madara dislikes village direction and rebels (first stupid)
    3.- Uchiha begin following after madara (second stupid)
    4.- Leaders get concerned over uchiha supporting madara's ideals and act accordingly. They spy on them, locate them in a section of the village where they can be spied on and keep them away from political power (multiple acts of greater stupidity)
    5.- Uchiha plan a coup (for practical purposes, fifth and final stupid)
    Once again, no Uchiha joined Madara in his attempt to battle Hashirama after Konoha was already founded. He fought on his own.

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    Re: This War Arc is a hint to the redemption of the Uchiha Clan

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Having a say, and being a village councillor are two entirely different things.
    Did they have a say in Hiruzen being the next Hokage? Nope. It was a Senju that made the decision. Homura and Koharu were a given since they were his team mates and students of the first and second Hokage. In Danzo and Kakashi's case the former Hokage was unable to vote, which meant the Daimyo and council decided, with jounin only at the end of the process.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    And Madara and Hashirama talking isn't Madara being a councillor of/for Konoha; it's him having a personal conversation with the man who would later go on to become Hokage.
    They were talking as two representives of the Konoha's citizens. Include Tobirama and you have Konoha's first (although unofficial) council.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    And once again, my comments have never touched on my views, or the opinions of Konoha's leaders, of the Uchiha, as I've said, they're irrelevant to what I addressed; specifically the identity of the councillors. You stated that Hiruzen should've appointed an Uchiha as councillor, I questioned why they should be entitled to such a position over others, and whether or not this point was even valid considering that we don't know how the councillors come to gain their position. I've little desire to get into a long discussion about the Uchiha, and the morality of their actions or those taken against them. Been there, done that. I simply pointed out that fault you were attributing to Hiruzen was unfair, and misplaced.
    There would have been very few if any outside of Hokage, who would have been a match for Shishui or Itachi. Their loyalty to the village was not in question nor their willingness to makes sacrifices. Hiruzen could have made a compelling argument and gained favour with 2/3 of the council and his jounin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    The Kage Summit showed you that bodyguards are prestigious, really? The only thing that I gleaned from the selection were that bodyguards were loyal to the Kage they served and suited for the task, often with unique abilities that made them as such. The war showed us that there are a lot of ninja higher ranked, and more respected than they are. Add that to the fact that the Kages rarely leave their villages, and those bodyguards probably wouldn't have much work to do most of the time. Take a look at Minato's former bodyguards to see how far that gets you. And back to my original point, how do we know that the selection of councillors had anything to do with Hiruzen?
    If you look back at the first Kage Summit you'll see that each respective bodyguard goes on to become the next kage, and even at the second Kage Summit there are a few kage candidates present. Minato's former bodyguards are still the Hokage's bodyguards. They were selected for Daimyo guardian squad and even hunted a former kage.

    I get what you're saying but I believe Hiruzen could have made it happen if he had made the effort. Look at the size of Suna's council. Konoha has room for more. Even its extended council, with the addition of jounin commander and ANBU leader is still much smaller.

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  8. #36
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    Re: This War Arc is a hint to the redemption of the Uchiha Clan

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchy View Post
    Did they have a say in Hiruzen being the next Hokage? Nope. It was a Senju that made the decision. Homura and Koharu were a given since they were his team mates and students of the first and second Hokage. In Danzo and Kakashi's case the former Hokage was unable to vote, which meant the Daimyo and council decided, with jounin only at the end of the process.
    Considering the inconsistencies in the way Hokage is selected, who knows. They voted in the original election for Hashirama, so they without a doubt counted in that selection. Tobirama's rise to Hokage is unaccounted for. Hiruzen was seemingly handpicked by his predecessor while giving his life. Minato was supposedly selected by Hiruzen. Tsunade just showed up because for some strange reason no one else after Jiraiya was considered. And Danzo, if he didn't end up dead, was going to have to face a vote, if he and the Uchiha had made it that far, they could've contributed to the process. Nothing has been shown to suggest that the Uchiha has been treated any differently than the other clans when it came to the governance of Konoha. Your mention of the Senju stems from the fact that the Hokage happened to be a Senju, a Sarutobi chose after that, a Namikaze would've done the same if given the chance, and it was a council that chose otherwise. And we don't know when or how Homura and Koharu came to be councillors. If the Uchiha had avoided a coup attempt and survived long enough, maybe Hiruzen would've chosen an Uchiha as Hokage. And this talk of the Hokage selection is far removed from being a councillor, which is pretty much the entire purpose of this ever-lengthening discussion. Your criticisms are extending to the form of governance rather than any actions taken or not taken with a specific clan in mind, and that debate is one I have very little interest in.

    Quote Quote:
    They were talking as two representives of the Konoha's citizens. Include Tobirama and you have Konoha's first (although unofficial) council.
    Konoha didn't exist yet to have any citizens. And they were talking as old rivals, and leaders of their respective clans.

    Quote Quote:
    There would have been very few if any outside of Hokage, who would have been a match for Shishui or Itachi. Their loyalty to the village was not in question nor their willingness to makes sacrifices. Hiruzen could have made a compelling argument and gained favour with 2/3 of the council and his jounin.
    And? Why are we talking about their combat abilities? Are their special missions that the councillors are expected to undertake? I've never questioned Itachi and Shisui's abilities as shinobi or their loyalty to Konoha. My problem is that you continue to argue that he should've appointed them to a post, when we don't know how the councillors come to gain their position in the first place.

    Quote Quote:
    If you look back at the first Kage Summit you'll see that each respective bodyguard goes on to become the next kage, and even at the second Kage Summit there are a few kage candidates present. Minato's former bodyguards are still the Hokage's bodyguards. They were selected for Daimyo guardian squad and even hunted a former kage.
    Not completely accurate, there is one random Kiri shinobi that doesn't seem to become Mizukage. And who are these Kage candidates at the recent Kage summit, which probably isn't the second by the way? Where was this suggested? Gaara just brought his siblings, Danzo's bodyguards didn't exactly scream Hokage wannabes, C and Ao were probably brought along because of their sensing abilities. I mean where did you come to this conclusion that these guys were serious Kage candidates, now or anytime in the distant future? And Minato's bodyguards are amongst those defeated by the Sound Four way back in Part 1, these guys aren't exactly screaming that they're big deals. Their significance at this point boils down to their ability to utilise Hiraishin together. And they tracked a significantly weakened Mu alongside Dodai, the seemingly more useful one amongst the group, because they were pretty much right there when he needed someone to help. And the three of them alongside Dodai and some other random shinobi managed to do what to Mu in the end, he was still free and in action before the release of Edo Tensei. Let's not oversell their activities.

    Quote Quote:
    I get what you're saying but I believe Hiruzen could have made it happen if he had made the effort. Look at the size of Suna's council. Konoha has room for more. Even its extended council, with the addition of jounin commander and ANBU leader is still much smaller.
    And my thing is that we don't know if what you were suggesting was even possible for him to accomplish, so it seems pretty unfair to blame him.
    Last edited by Impossibility; December 10, 2013 at 11:03 AM.

  9. #37
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    Re: This War Arc is a hint to the redemption of the Uchiha Clan

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    If the Uchiha had avoided a coup attempt and survived long enough, maybe Hiruzen would've chosen an Uchiha as Hokage. And this talk of the Hokage selection is far removed from being a councillor, which is pretty much the entire purpose of this ever-lengthening discussion. Your criticisms are extending to the form of governance rather than any actions taken or not taken with a specific clan in mind, and that debate is one I have very little interest in.
    Hokage makes the big decisions and if you don't have a say in who is selected and elected then how are you being represented? Tsunade tolerates the council because they are the most experienced jonin in the village, but we have seen her override them at least once.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Konoha didn't exist yet to have any citizens. And they were talking as old rivals, and leaders of their respective clans.
    Konoha did exist. The only difference between now and then was that the Daimyo had yet to make their partnership official.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    And? Why are we talking about their combat abilities? Are their special missions that the councillors are expected to undertake? I've never questioned Itachi and Shisui's abilities as shinobi or their loyalty to Konoha. My problem is that you continue to argue that he should've appointed them to a post, when we don't know how the councillors come to gain their position in the first place.
    We've seen that ANBU are part of the extended council and under the direct control of the Hokage, so in that respect it was within Hiruzen's power to bring an Uchiha to the table.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Not completely accurate, there is one random Kiri shinobi that doesn't seem to become Mizukage. And who are these Kage candidates at the recent Kage summit, which probably isn't the second by the way? Where was this suggested? Gaara just brought his siblings, Danzo's bodyguards didn't exactly scream Hokage wannabes, C and Ao were probably brought along because of their sensing abilities. I mean where did you come to this conclusion that these guys were serious Kage candidates, now or anytime in the distant future?
    4 out of 5 is still good odds. Darui for sure. Kurotsuchi is a powerful kunoichi with favourable family ties. Chojuro is a member of the seven swordsmen indicating that he graduated with the highest battle abilities of his generation. Kankuro was promoted to division leader which says a lot. Torune losing to Obito does not mean he is not a powerful shinobi, because as we've seen there are few capable of defeating him when he has warping abilities. So yes, they are potential kages.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    And Minato's bodyguards are amongst those defeated by the Sound Four way back in Part 1, these guys aren't exactly screaming that they're big deals. Their significance at this point boils down to their ability to utilise Hiraishin together. And they tracked a significantly weakened Mu alongside Dodai, the seemingly more useful one amongst the group, because they were pretty much right there when he needed someone to help. And the three of them alongside Dodai and some other random shinobi managed to do what to Mu in the end, he was still free and in action before the release of Edo Tensei. Let's not oversell their activities.
    Genma and Raido were spent from their mission prior to engaging Sound Four, a team consisting of chunin and at least 2 jonin-level nin, each able to harness CS2 power. Besides, you're missing the point. Promotion to that role is a public display of trust.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    And my thing is that we don't know if what you were suggesting was even possible for him to accomplish, so it seems pretty unfair to blame him.
    We don't know if he could have done, it's true. Although, there are few that would say that genocide is a better option than fighting to promote Itachi, Shishui or Fugaku. Irrespective of your opinion, I still believe that as one who has be Hokage the longest, Hiruzen should have found another solution.

  10. #38
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    Re: This War Arc is a hint to the redemption of the Uchiha Clan

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchy View Post
    Hokage makes the big decisions and if you don't have a say in who is selected and elected then how are you being represented? Tsunade tolerates the council because they are the most experienced jonin in the village, but we have seen her override them at least once.
    And yet we still don't know how the village councillors gained their position. Once again, we've seen that at times they can influence the selection of Hokage, we've little clue how the councillors are selected, and how the clans influence the direction of the village. You're arguing that by not being councillors they were completely without influence, but that isn't necessarily the case. The Uchiha clan served as Konoha's police force, they are the only clan to explicitly be shown to have an inherent position within Konoha's governance structure. Quite frankly, that alone is more influence than any other clan has been entitled to, and that includes the Senju who at the time of the coup had seemed to have faded into irrelevance for the most part. And I don't see how Tsunade compromising with the councillors on a matter is particularly relevant.

    Quote Quote:
    Konoha did exist. The only difference between now and then was that the Daimyo had yet to make their partnership official.
    The idea of Konoha existed, it itself did not.

    Quote Quote:
    We've seen that ANBU are part of the extended council and under the direct control of the Hokage, so in that respect it was within Hiruzen's power to bring an Uchiha to the table.
    Now you're addressing some extended council that is another matter entirely. The Konoha Council has been shown to consist of two members. As for the ANBU commander, you seem to operating as though this was a vacant position to be filled.

    Quote Quote:
    4 out of 5 is still good odds. Darui for sure. Kurotsuchi is a powerful kunoichi with favourable family ties. Chojuro is a member of the seven swordsmen indicating that he graduated with the highest battle abilities of his generation. Kankuro was promoted to division leader which says a lot. Torune losing to Obito does not mean he is not a powerful shinobi, because as we've seen there are few capable of defeating him when he has warping abilities. So yes, they are potential kages.
    Simply being skilled doesn't make one a potential Kage, one would hope the bodyguards could do their job to some extent. For each village it would be quite easy to see that there are individuals ahead of them in the pecking order. The position of bodyguard isn't a segway to further influence or power. Furthermore, it's a bit weird for Kage candidates themselves to be significantly older than their sitting Kage; that seems like pretty awful planning.

    Quote Quote:
    Genma and Raido were spent from their mission prior to engaging Sound Four, a team consisting of chunin and at least 2 jonin-level nin, each able to harness CS2 power. Besides, you're missing the point. Promotion to that role is a public display of trust.
    They lost to opponents genin would go on to defeat, this is pretty awful. Unless they were half-dead, this shouldn't even have been a possibility. I don't deny that it is a display of trust, I've already pointed out that the bodyguards were obviously chosen for loyalty. But I still fail to see how being a bodyguard would've helped Itachi in any way, or be the best use of his abilities. Your entire argument seems to be Hiruzen should've used Itachi or Shisui to throw the Uchiha a bone. My problem is that I don't see why they deserve any such thing over the other clans, and secondly the entire clan had already been given power as the police force and their reaction was suspicion and, down the road, the planning of a coup.

    Quote Quote:
    We don't know if he could have done, it's true. Although, there are few that would say that genocide is a better option than fighting to promote Itachi, Shishui or Fugaku. Irrespective of your opinion, I still believe that as one who has be Hokage the longest, Hiruzen should have found another solution.
    If the options were that simple you could make that statement. But the question remains whether such a thing was warranted, and whether such an appointment would've made any difference in the Uchiha's plans. Offering Fugaku a position might have only served to further the plans for the coup. Konoha had to consider the village, not just the Uchiha. I agree that there were probably better outcomes that were possible, I just don't think Hiruzen acted in an inappropriate manner, or that he should be pasted with a significant share of the responsibility for the events.
    Last edited by Impossibility; December 10, 2013 at 02:46 PM.

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    Re: This War Arc is a hint to the redemption of the Uchiha Clan

    why this war should be a redemption of the Uchiha Clan?, the followed what they believe and the uchiha felt discriminate and took that decision, why people think uchihas are evil?..
    living in the darkness and now with a new light, i will raise to a new beginning...

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    Re: This War Arc is a hint to the redemption of the Uchiha Clan

    Quote Originally Posted by EMS View Post
    why this war should be a redemption of the Uchiha Clan?, the followed what they believe and the uchiha felt discriminate and took that decision, why people think uchihas are evil?..
    The same reason why the Emperor thinks (or at least makes other people think) the rebels in SW are evil and should be prosecuted.

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    Re: This War Arc is a hint to the redemption of the Uchiha Clan

    Quote Originally Posted by EMS View Post
    why this war should be a redemption of the Uchiha Clan?, the followed what they believe and the uchiha felt discriminate and took that decision, why people think uchihas are evil?..
    They hate Sasuke , Sasuke is an Uchiha ....

    they love Naruto , Naruto want become Hokage , Hokage is leader of Konoha ,

    ---------- Post added at 02:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:44 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by EMS View Post
    why this war should be a redemption of the Uchiha Clan?, the followed what they believe and the uchiha felt discriminate and took that decision, why people think uchihas are evil?..
    They hate Sasuke , Sasuke is an Uchiha ....

    they love Naruto , Naruto want become Hokage , Hokage is leader of Konoha ,

  14. #42
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    Re: This War Arc is a hint to the redemption of the Uchiha Clan

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    And yet we still don't know how the village councillors gained their position. Once again, we've seen that at times they can influence the selection of Hokage, we've little clue how the councillors are selected, and how the clans influence the direction of the village. You're arguing that by not being councillors they were completely without influence, but that isn't necessarily the case. The Uchiha clan served as Konoha's police force, they are the only clan to explicitly be shown to have an inherent position within Konoha's governance structure. Quite frankly, that alone is more influence than any other clan has been entitled to, and that includes the Senju who at the time of the coup had seemed to have faded into irrelevance for the most part. And I don't see how Tsunade compromising with the councillors on a matter is particularly relevant.
    I didn't say compromise. Tsunade flat out refused to which they replied, "Do what you want if you're that convinced". And once again, she refuses and gives a compelling speech, to which they replied, "Do as you like". This suggests that Hokage can act without the approval of the advisors if they feel strongly enough about the situation,

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    The idea of Konoha existed, it itself did not.
    Konoha, as it stood before Hashirama became Hokage. They had already formed an alliance with the Fire Country - it just needed a representitive to seal the deal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Now you're addressing some extended council that is another matter entirely. The Konoha Council has been shown to consist of two members. As for the ANBU commander, you seem to operating as though this was a vacant position to be filled.
    I'm addressing an alternative to genocide. The Advisors, are two. The council is four, if you include Danzo and the Hokage. The extended council are five, if you include the ANBU commander. Shikaku stood in for Danzo after his death. Hokage has the power to make it vacant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Simply being skilled doesn't make one a potential Kage, one would hope the bodyguards could do their job to some extent. For each village it would be quite easy to see that there are individuals ahead of them in the pecking order. The position of bodyguard isn't a segway to further influence or power. Furthermore, it's a bit weird for Kage candidates themselves to be significantly older than their sitting Kage; that seems like pretty awful planning.
    Name more than one potential candidate in Kumo above Darui. Then do the same for Kurotsuchi, Chojuro, Kankuro and Temari in their respective villages. In the event of death you choose the best to hand e.g. Hiruzen replacing Minato.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    They lost to opponents genin would go on to defeat, this is pretty awful. Unless they were half-dead, this shouldn't even have been a possibility.
    You mean in the same way that some fodder thugs managed to kill Zabuza and would have killed Team 7 were it not for the Tazuna's fellow countrymen coming to the rescue? I'm positive Sound Four would have been a far greater threat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    I don't deny that it is a display of trust, I've already pointed out that the bodyguards were obviously chosen for loyalty. But I still fail to see how being a bodyguard would've helped Itachi in any way, or be the best use of his abilities. Your entire argument seems to be Hiruzen should've used Itachi or Shisui to throw the Uchiha a bone. My problem is that I don't see why they deserve any such thing over the other clans, and secondly the entire clan had already been given power as the police force and their reaction was suspicion and, down the road, the planning of a coup.
    The reason is simple. The other clans weren't being ostracized by Konoha. The Uchiha were afraid and it was the council's duty to mend the relationship. Sure they were made Konoha Police, and to those not in the loop, the appointment appeared to be a symbol of trust. However, recent chapters have Tobirama telling us it was just a means to pacify them. Futhermore, they were under heavy surveillance, so I think their suspicion was justified.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    If the options were that simple you could make that statement. But the question remains whether such a thing was warranted, and whether such an appointment would've made any difference in the Uchiha's plans. Offering Fugaku a position might have only served to further the plans for the coup. Konoha had to consider the village, not just the Uchiha. I agree that there were probably better outcomes that were possible, I just don't think Hiruzen acted in an inappropriate manner, or that he should be pasted with a significant share of the responsibility for the events.
    Danzo openly opposed Hiruzen, created his own ANBU unit and operated with impunity. What could Fugaku have demanded that was any worse than that? He was neither surprised nor did he try to dissuade Itachi. He was proud of his son and his only request was that Itachi look after Sasuke. That doesn't seem like the response one would expect from a man hell bent of conflict. It was clear that Hiruzen had succumb to Danzo's hardline approach to dealing with problems, knowing the Uchiha were prone to anguish and despair but keeping them isolated anyway. He's the same person that allowed a jinchuuriki to be starved of love knowing it was a precursor to controlling their biju. He could have done better.
    Last edited by Dutchy; December 11, 2013 at 06:34 AM.

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  16. #43
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    Re: This War Arc is a hint to the redemption of the Uchiha Clan

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchy View Post
    I didn't say compromise. Tsunade flat out refused to which they replied, "Do what you want if you're that convinced". And once again, she refuses and gives a compelling speech, to which they replied, "Do as you like". This suggests that Hokage can act without the approval of the advisors if they feel strongly enough about the situation,
    You realise that a few pages later after your first link, Tsunade shouts that she's making concessions too. I don't dispute that the Hokage wields more power, I'm just pointing out that the Council isn't so easily ignored.

    Quote Quote:
    Konoha, as it stood before Hashirama became Hokage. They had already formed an alliance with the Fire Country - it just needed a representitive to seal the deal.
    Konoha was already formed to a certain extent at that point. What I've questioned from that start was your statement that Madara was a councillor before the village was formed. After the village formed, they spoke at lengths, I've little doubt. Although, this is far removed from being a councillor.

    Quote Quote:
    I'm addressing an alternative to genocide. The Advisors, are two. The council is four, if you include Danzo and the Hokage. The extended council are five, if you include the ANBU commander. Shikaku stood in for Danzo after his death. Hokage has the power to make it vacant.
    The Konoha Council has two councillors. What you're referencing is something else entirely, something seen rarely. And Shikaku's seat at the council you're referencing was in his capacity as Jonin Commander, the highest ranking normal shinobi in the village. Hokage has the power to make the commander position vacant, but what you're advocating is removing an undoubtedly experienced and respected leader of an important military outfit of Konoha to be replaced without cause by some far less experienced applicant for the sole reason of attempting to appease a single clan amongst many within the village. This wouldn't make any sense whatsoever, and most definitely would create tension amongst members of ANBU, and likely other clans. The Hokage is responsible for the entire village.

    Quote Quote:
    Name more than one potential candidate in Kumo above Darui. Then do the same for Kurotsuchi, Chojuro, Kankuro and Temari in their respective villages. In the event of death you choose the best to hand e.g. Hiruzen replacing Minato.
    Of the bodyguards, Darui is probably the only one who could be considered a potential forerunner, although it's not as though we've had a veritable trove of shinobi introduced and his presence has likely far more to do with his relationship with the Raikages. For Iwa it's easy, Kitsuchi. For Kiri, I can't think of any shinobi other than Mei and her two bodyguards that aren't dead or missing-nin, but I'd wager the head of the hunter-nin or some other random person. For Suna, Baki would seem more obvious, although Temari could probably be considered a serious contender. Of the ten bodyguards, two seem like serious candidates, although Temari is less likely because Gaara would need to perish prematurely for her to even be considered. And this considers the fact that we don't see much of the other villages. Konoha has obvious contenders. My point remains, bodyguards aren't chosen to wield influence or as potential leaders, they're chosen for their loyalty, relation to the sitting Kage, and skills that might make them particularly suited for the task.

    Quote Quote:
    You mean in the same way that some fodder thugs managed to kill Zabuza and would have killed Team 7 were it not for the Tazuna's fellow countrymen coming to the rescue? I'm positive Sound Four would have been a far greater threat.
    Well, considering that Zabuza was, in fact, on the way to the grave when he faced them, he couldn't even make seals, he probably deserves a lot more credit.

    Quote Quote:
    The reason is simple. The other clans weren't being ostracized by Konoha. The Uchiha were afraid and it was the council's duty to mend the relationship. Sure they were made Konoha Police, and to those not in the loop, the appointment appeared to be a symbol of trust. However, recent chapters have Tobirama telling us it was just a means to pacify them. Futhermore, they were under heavy surveillance, so I think their suspicion was justified.
    How were the Uchiha being ostracised? And the Uchiha weren't afraid, they were angry. They were a respected clan, and wielded seemingly far more institutionalised power than their peers. And how would the appointment of Itachi or Shisui as a bodyguard differ from the appointment of the clan as police force? If giving the entire clan more authority than any other didn't improve the situation or satisfy them, why would the appointment of a single individual to another post accomplish such a thing?

    Quote Quote:
    Danzo openly opposed Hiruzen, created his own ANBU unit and operated with impunity. What could Fugaku have demanded that was any worse than that? He was neither surprised nor did he try to dissuade Itachi. He was proud of his son and his only request was that Itachi look after Sasuke. That doesn't seem like the response one would expect from a man hell bent of conflict. It was clear that Hiruzen had succumb to Danzo's hardline approach to dealing with problems, knowing the Uchiha were prone to anguish and despair but keeping them isolated anyway. He's the same person that allowed a jinchuuriki to be starved of love knowing it was a precursor to controlling their biju. He could have done better.
    How'd we get to Danzo again? Some might consider it a poor choice to put a man actively planning a coup amongst the current leadership. And despite Fugaku's concerns for his son, he was planning a coup that would likely result in significant strife, so there's that. Hiruzen did what he thought was necessary, and best for the village. As for Naruto, Hiruzen showed concern for Naruto, and attempted to provide for him, the people of the village simply had their own issues. Although, Naruto's entire backstory becomes nonsensical when you learn of his heritage and the history of the village. Hindsight is 20/20. As I've said, there were possibly superior outcomes, but Hiruzen worked with what was available to him. Alternatively, it could've been far worse.

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    Re: This War Arc is a hint to the redemption of the Uchiha Clan

    so people saying that , the Oppressed always should accept Tyrannies' rule because if they rebel and make a move then it may begin a war ...

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    Re: This War Arc is a hint to the redemption of the Uchiha Clan

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    You realise that a few pages later after your first link, Tsunade shouts that she's making concessions too. I don't dispute that the Hokage wields more power, I'm just pointing out that the Council isn't so easily ignored.
    You realise that during the Pain Invasion she refused their request and tossed them to the floor. And I'm just pointing out that the Hokage can gain support or at least acceptance from the council if they talk with enough conviction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Konoha was already formed to a certain extent at that point. What I've questioned from that start was your statement that Madara was a councillor before the village was formed. After the village formed, they spoke at lengths, I've little doubt. Although, this is far removed from being a councillor.
    This statement is of very little consequence because we know that Madara was a founder and discussed the concept of the village at least a decade before it was realised.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    The Konoha Council has two councillors. What you're referencing is something else entirely, something seen rarely. And Shikaku's seat at the council you're referencing was in his capacity as Jonin Commander, the highest ranking normal shinobi in the village. Hokage has the power to make the commander position vacant, but what you're advocating is removing an undoubtedly experienced and respected leader of an important military outfit of Konoha to be replaced without cause by some far less experienced applicant for the sole reason of attempting to appease a single clan amongst many within the village. This wouldn't make any sense whatsoever, and most definitely would create tension amongst members of ANBU, and likely other clans. The Hokage is responsible for the entire village.
    The Jonin Commander and ANBU Commander are two different roles. Itachi's wisdom and combat analysis are second to none. He was already on par with Sarutobi's first choice for Hokage let alone the current ANBU Commander.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    My point remains, bodyguards aren't chosen to wield influence or as potential leaders, they're chosen for their loyalty, relation to the sitting Kage, and skills that might make them particularly suited for the task.
    Firstly, you've lost sight of the reason I stated it as a useful role. Secondly, you're echoing my sentiments. The role could serve as a precursor to gaining the trust of not only the Hokage, but the council and jonin as well. Also, you failed to mention more than 1 nin for each village that is stronger than the bodyguards. This is a war, so if there were better nin this where you would see them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Well, considering that Zabuza was, in fact, on the way to the grave when he faced them, he couldn't even make seals, he probably deserves a lot more credit.
    Sure Zabuza couldn't perform seals but he was far from being on his way to the grave. Again Sound 4 consists of at least 2 jonin level nin and 3 chunin level nin, who can increase their strength at least 10 fold. It took Kidomaru alone to trap an ANBU squad leader and his subordinate. Genma and Raido deserve more credit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    How were the Uchiha being ostracised? And the Uchiha weren't afraid, they were angry. They were a respected clan, and wielded seemingly far more institutionalised power than their peers. And how would the appointment of Itachi or Shisui as a bodyguard differ from the appointment of the clan as police force? If giving the entire clan more authority than any other didn't improve the situation or satisfy them, why would the appointment of a single individual to another post accomplish such a thing?
    If you treat someone like a nuisance and force them away, they tend to act badly from time to time. Orochimaru already stated that they were viewed with vitriol, so it's more likely that they were feared more than respected. Then they were isolated further by being forced to the outskirts of the village. There they were subject to routine infringement of fundamental human rights like the right to privacy or due process of law. Even those unable to pose any threat were killed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    How'd we get to Danzo again? Some might consider it a poor choice to put a man actively planning a coup amongst the current leadership. And despite Fugaku's concerns for his son, he was planning a coup that would likely result in significant strife, so there's that. Hiruzen did what he thought was necessary, and best for the village. As for Naruto, Hiruzen showed concern for Naruto, and attempted to provide for him, the people of the village simply had their own issues. Although, Naruto's entire backstory becomes nonsensical when you learn of his heritage and the history of the village. Hindsight is 20/20. As I've said, there were possibly superior outcomes, but Hiruzen worked with what was available to him. Alternatively, it could've been far worse.
    Danzo again, because he was known as the 'darkness of the shinobi world' and has actively tried to seize control, yet he was invited to the table. If Sarutobi was that concerned he would have at least told him the truth about his status as a jinchuuriki, his family or something that let him know the hate wasn't personal. The Uchiha were actively kept away from politics where other clans were not. Sarutobi had it within his power to change that.

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