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Translations: Bleach 595 (2)
No they didn't. Madara did.Originally Posted by kckk
No it wasn't. The coup was planned years after Madara had died. It was only brought about after the Uchiha began seeing what kind of ninja Tobirama truly was and, by the time he was dead, their anger was too potent to ignore.Quote:
You don't know that because we never saw what lead to the coup outside of Tobirama being a bigot asshole. Which IMO could be more than enough.Quote:
Once again, no Uchiha joined Madara in his attempt to battle Hashirama after Konoha was already founded. He fought on his own.Quote:
first Kage Summit you'll see that each respective bodyguard goes on to become the next kage, and even at the second Kage Summit there are a few kage candidates present. Minato's former bodyguards are still the Hokage's bodyguards. They were selected for Daimyo guardian squad and even hunted a former kage.
I get what you're saying but I believe Hiruzen could have made it happen if he had made the effort. Look at the size of Suna's council. Konoha has room for more. Even its extended council, with the addition of jounin commander and ANBU leader is still much smaller.
Konoha didn't exist yet to have any citizens. And they were talking as old rivals, and leaders of their respective clans.Quote:
And? Why are we talking about their combat abilities? Are their special missions that the councillors are expected to undertake? I've never questioned Itachi and Shisui's abilities as shinobi or their loyalty to Konoha. My problem is that you continue to argue that he should've appointed them to a post, when we don't know how the councillors come to gain their position in the first place.Quote:
Not completely accurate, there is one random Kiri shinobi that doesn't seem to become Mizukage. And who are these Kage candidates at the recent Kage summit, which probably isn't the second by the way? Where was this suggested? Gaara just brought his siblings, Danzo's bodyguards didn't exactly scream Hokage wannabes, C and Ao were probably brought along because of their sensing abilities. I mean where did you come to this conclusion that these guys were serious Kage candidates, now or anytime in the distant future? And Minato's bodyguards are amongst those defeated by the Sound Four way back in Part 1, these guys aren't exactly screaming that they're big deals. Their significance at this point boils down to their ability to utilise Hiraishin together. And they tracked a significantly weakened Mu alongside Dodai, the seemingly more useful one amongst the group, because they were pretty much right there when he needed someone to help. And the three of them alongside Dodai and some other random shinobi managed to do what to Mu in the end, he was still free and in action before the release of Edo Tensei. Let's not oversell their activities.Quote:
And my thing is that we don't know if what you were suggesting was even possible for him to accomplish, so it seems pretty unfair to blame him.Quote:
Last edited by Impossibility; December 10, 2013 at 11:03 AM.
The idea of Konoha existed, it itself did not.Quote:
Now you're addressing some extended council that is another matter entirely. The Konoha Council has been shown to consist of two members. As for the ANBU commander, you seem to operating as though this was a vacant position to be filled.Quote:
Simply being skilled doesn't make one a potential Kage, one would hope the bodyguards could do their job to some extent. For each village it would be quite easy to see that there are individuals ahead of them in the pecking order. The position of bodyguard isn't a segway to further influence or power. Furthermore, it's a bit weird for Kage candidates themselves to be significantly older than their sitting Kage; that seems like pretty awful planning.Quote:
They lost to opponents genin would go on to defeat, this is pretty awful. Unless they were half-dead, this shouldn't even have been a possibility. I don't deny that it is a display of trust, I've already pointed out that the bodyguards were obviously chosen for loyalty. But I still fail to see how being a bodyguard would've helped Itachi in any way, or be the best use of his abilities. Your entire argument seems to be Hiruzen should've used Itachi or Shisui to throw the Uchiha a bone. My problem is that I don't see why they deserve any such thing over the other clans, and secondly the entire clan had already been given power as the police force and their reaction was suspicion and, down the road, the planning of a coup.Quote:
If the options were that simple you could make that statement. But the question remains whether such a thing was warranted, and whether such an appointment would've made any difference in the Uchiha's plans. Offering Fugaku a position might have only served to further the plans for the coup. Konoha had to consider the village, not just the Uchiha. I agree that there were probably better outcomes that were possible, I just don't think Hiruzen acted in an inappropriate manner, or that he should be pasted with a significant share of the responsibility for the events.Quote:
Last edited by Impossibility; December 10, 2013 at 02:46 PM.
why this war should be a redemption of the Uchiha Clan?, the followed what they believe and the uchiha felt discriminate and took that decision, why people think uchihas are evil?..
they love Naruto , Naruto want become Hokage , Hokage is leader of Konoha ,
---------- Post added at 02:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:44 AM ----------
they love Naruto , Naruto want become Hokage , Hokage is leader of Konoha ,
refused to which they replied, "Do what you want if you're that convinced". And once again, she refuses and gives a compelling speech, to which they replied, "Do as you like". This suggests that Hokage can act without the approval of the advisors if they feel strongly enough about the situation,
Konoha, as it stood before Hashirama became Hokage. They had already formed an alliance with the Fire Country - it just needed a representitive to seal the deal.
Last edited by Dutchy; December 11, 2013 at 06:34 AM.
Konoha was already formed to a certain extent at that point. What I've questioned from that start was your statement that Madara was a councillor before the village was formed. After the village formed, they spoke at lengths, I've little doubt. Although, this is far removed from being a councillor.Quote:
The Konoha Council has two councillors. What you're referencing is something else entirely, something seen rarely. And Shikaku's seat at the council you're referencing was in his capacity as Jonin Commander, the highest ranking normal shinobi in the village. Hokage has the power to make the commander position vacant, but what you're advocating is removing an undoubtedly experienced and respected leader of an important military outfit of Konoha to be replaced without cause by some far less experienced applicant for the sole reason of attempting to appease a single clan amongst many within the village. This wouldn't make any sense whatsoever, and most definitely would create tension amongst members of ANBU, and likely other clans. The Hokage is responsible for the entire village.Quote:
Of the bodyguards, Darui is probably the only one who could be considered a potential forerunner, although it's not as though we've had a veritable trove of shinobi introduced and his presence has likely far more to do with his relationship with the Raikages. For Iwa it's easy, Kitsuchi. For Kiri, I can't think of any shinobi other than Mei and her two bodyguards that aren't dead or missing-nin, but I'd wager the head of the hunter-nin or some other random person. For Suna, Baki would seem more obvious, although Temari could probably be considered a serious contender. Of the ten bodyguards, two seem like serious candidates, although Temari is less likely because Gaara would need to perish prematurely for her to even be considered. And this considers the fact that we don't see much of the other villages. Konoha has obvious contenders. My point remains, bodyguards aren't chosen to wield influence or as potential leaders, they're chosen for their loyalty, relation to the sitting Kage, and skills that might make them particularly suited for the task.Quote:
Well, considering that Zabuza was, in fact, on the way to the grave when he faced them, he couldn't even make seals, he probably deserves a lot more credit.Quote:
How were the Uchiha being ostracised? And the Uchiha weren't afraid, they were angry. They were a respected clan, and wielded seemingly far more institutionalised power than their peers. And how would the appointment of Itachi or Shisui as a bodyguard differ from the appointment of the clan as police force? If giving the entire clan more authority than any other didn't improve the situation or satisfy them, why would the appointment of a single individual to another post accomplish such a thing?Quote:
How'd we get to Danzo again? Some might consider it a poor choice to put a man actively planning a coup amongst the current leadership. And despite Fugaku's concerns for his son, he was planning a coup that would likely result in significant strife, so there's that. Hiruzen did what he thought was necessary, and best for the village. As for Naruto, Hiruzen showed concern for Naruto, and attempted to provide for him, the people of the village simply had their own issues. Although, Naruto's entire backstory becomes nonsensical when you learn of his heritage and the history of the village. Hindsight is 20/20. As I've said, there were possibly superior outcomes, but Hiruzen worked with what was available to him. Alternatively, it could've been far worse.Quote:
so people saying that , the Oppressed always should accept Tyrannies' rule because if they rebel and make a move then it may begin a war ...
Kidomaru alone to trap an ANBU squad leader and his subordinate. Genma and Raido deserve more credit.