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Thread: This War Arc is a hint to the redemption of the Uchiha Clan <3

  1. #76
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member marshall313's Avatar
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    Re: This War Arc is a hint to the redemption of the Uchiha Clan

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    There are just as many evil ninjas from Konoha that aren't Uchiha.
    But the entire uchiha planned for a coup, right? What makes you think itachi killed them all? because they're all bad and evil.

    They planned to kill anyone who'll stand in their way for power. A power that didn't belong to them to begin with.

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    Re: This War Arc is a hint to the redemption of the Uchiha Clan

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    But the entire uchiha planned for a coup, right? What makes you think itachi killed them all? because they're all bad and evil.

    They planned to kill anyone who'll stand in their way for power. A power that didn't belong to them to begin with.
    Itachi killed them all to save Sasuke, something his parents were fully aware of and thus the reason they willingly accepted being killed. If they were truly bad, then Itachi wouldn't have needed to be blackmailed by Danzo in order to act.

    There isn;'t a single piece of evidence to support the idea that they were "willing to kill anyone in their way". If that was true, then they wouldn't have allowed Itachi to kill them, or talk about how much they loved him despite him going against what they wanted.

  3. #78
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member marshall313's Avatar
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    Re: This War Arc is a hint to the redemption of the Uchiha Clan

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Itachi killed them all to save Sasuke, something his parents were fully aware of and thus the reason they willingly accepted being killed. If they were truly bad, then Itachi wouldn't have needed to be blackmailed by Danzo in order to act. .
    Blackmailed isn't really the exact word. Because technically, itachi did it on his own will. Danzo was merely giving him a choices. And i think itachi knows his action. Even Without danzo's choices, he was really serious to annihilate his clansmen for the sake of konoha.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    There isn;'t a single piece of evidence to support the idea that they were "willing to kill anyone in their way". If that was true, then they wouldn't have allowed Itachi to kill them, or talk about how much they loved him despite him going against what they wanted.
    Huh? They're planning for a coup right? Meaning they're going to do it with force. And what do you mean about they wouldn't allowed itachi to kill them? Are you talking about the uchiha as a whole or just itachi's parents? Ofcourse, fugaku allowed itachi to kill him and his wife, t'was their son after all. Didn't fugaku said that he's still proud to itachi even though they had different views/opinion?

  4. #79
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    Re: This War Arc is a hint to the redemption of the Uchiha Clan

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    Blackmailed isn't really the exact word. Because technically, itachi did it on his own will. Danzo was merely giving him a choices. And i think itachi knows his action. Even Without danzo's choices, he was really serious to annihilate his clansmen for the sake of konoha.
    Blackmail is the exact word. There are always choices in blackmail, that doesn't make it alright. And if it was for the sake of Konoha, then Itachi wouldn't have threaten to give away all of Konoha's secrets to their enemies if anything happen to Sasuke. Itachi's main focus was protecting Sasuke, the thing he cared about most, a point established by multiple characters.

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    Huh? They're planning for a coup right? Meaning they're going to do it with force. And what do you mean about they wouldn't allowed itachi to kill them? Are you talking about the uchiha as a whole or just itachi's parents? Ofcourse, fugaku allowed itachi to kill him and his wife, t'was their son after all. Didn't fugaku said that he's still proud to itachi even though they had different views/opinion?
    You do realize a coup can be done without actual bloodshed, right? There are several real world examples. That's not even factoring the fact that as Uchiha's, they had the means to defeat their opponents without killing them thanks to genjutsu. And the fact that Fugaku allowed Itachi to kill them just to protect Sasuke completely goes against the whole power-hungry claim. Clearly they weren't that willingly to "kill anyone standing in their way"...

  5. #80
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member marshall313's Avatar
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    Re: This War Arc is a hint to the redemption of the Uchiha Clan

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Blackmail is the exact word. There are always choices in blackmail, that doesn't make it alright. And if it was for the sake of Konoha, then Itachi wouldn't have threaten to give away all of Konoha's secrets to their enemies if anything happen to Sasuke. Itachi's main focus was protecting Sasuke, the thing he cared about most, a point established by multiple characters.
    HUh? From the very beginning, itachi doesn't have any choice.

    And i think you're using obito's words, itachi didnt confirmed that. If my memory serves me right, obito stated that after hiruzen died, itachi goes back to konoha to threaten danzo that he, as madara was still alive. And that itachi will give away all of konoha's secrets. Do you honestly believe obito's words, do you? Whereas the only reason why danzo knows about madara as the masked man is when sai send him the report.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    You do realize a coup can be done without actual bloodshed, right? There are several real world examples. That's not even factoring the fact that as Uchiha's, they had the means to defeat their opponents without killing them thanks to genjutsu. And the fact that Fugaku allowed Itachi to kill them just to protect Sasuke completely goes against the whole power-hungry claim. Clearly they weren't that willingly to "kill anyone standing in their way"...
    No. We're talking about ninjas, so coup means war/bloodshed. And no, do you honestly believe that the elders, hiruzen and the anbu's will fall from genjutsu that easily?

    Fugaku didnt allowed itachi to kill them just to protect sasuke, FUgaku just clearly asked his son, itachi, to protect his brother. They didn't die to protect sasuke, they just asked itachi to protect sasuke. That's two different scenarios.

    The uchiha is indeed a power-hungry clan. They want to control the konoha's political power. The konoha was suppose to be a democracy village, but the uchiha wants to demolish that democracy and change it to dictatorship. But they're forgetting something that the reason why they are still alive is because of the senju or hashirama.

    And the reason why they don't have a political power is because they're greedy, selfish as hell and they don't have the quality/requirements to be one. No wonder itachi said that his clan is really pathetic. They really wasted shisui and itachi's talent and caliber.

  6. #81
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    Re: This War Arc is a hint to the redemption of the Uchiha Clan

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    HUh? From the very beginning, itachi doesn't have any choice.

    And i think you're using obito's words, itachi didnt confirmed that. If my memory serves me right, obito stated that after hiruzen died, itachi goes back to konoha to threaten danzo that he, as madara was still alive. And that itachi will give away all of konoha's secrets. Do you honestly believe obito's words, do you? Whereas the only reason why danzo knows about madara as the masked man is when sai send him the report.
    If you believe Itachi didn't have a choice, then how can you say he did it of his own free will?

    Obito's story was confirmed true regarding Itachi and his actions. And Danzo believed Obito was Madara because they had met during the Uchiha massacre, something Obito states upon meeting him. Sai's report wouldn't have mentioned anything about "Madara", because no one else was aware of that until the end of the summit.

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    No. We're talking about ninjas, so coup means war/bloodshed. And no, do you honestly believe that the elders, hiruzen and the anbu's will fall from genjutsu that easily?

    Fugaku didnt allowed itachi to kill them just to protect sasuke, FUgaku just clearly asked his son, itachi, to protect his brother. They didn't die to protect sasuke, they just asked itachi to protect sasuke. That's two different scenarios.

    The uchiha is indeed a power-hungry clan. They want to control the konoha's political power. The konoha was suppose to be a democracy village, but the uchiha wants to demolish that democracy and change it to dictatorship. But they're forgetting something that the reason why they are still alive is because of the senju or hashirama.

    And the reason why they don't have a political power is because they're greedy, selfish as hell and they don't have the quality/requirements to be one. No wonder itachi said that his clan is really pathetic. They really wasted shisui and itachi's talent and caliber.
    No, that's not what a coup is at all. If that was the case, then it wouldn't have been called a coup. We have seen both Danzo and Anbu get caught by the Sharingan's genjutsu quite easily.

    They made it clear they knew that Itachi was doing what he was doing to protect Sasuke, thus the reason they spoke of him. If they didn't know that, then they would have had no reason to assume that Itachi wouldn't also kill Sasuke on Konoha's orders.

    Literally none of what you said is supported by anything within the series. If they were so power-hungry, then they would never have sided against Madara in the first place when he attempted to do exactly what you're claiming they were all about. And they surely wouldn't have remained silent for fifty-some years. Konoha is also far from a democracy. It was already a dictatorship, with a single person having absolute control.

    The reason they lost political power was due to the council's prejudices. This was outright confirmed that Tobirama went out of his way to push them away. He literally admits it. Konoha was the problem, something already acknowledged by the Hokages.

  7. #82
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member marshall313's Avatar
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    Re: This War Arc is a hint to the redemption of the Uchiha Clan

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    If you believe Itachi didn't have a choice, then how can you say he did it of his own free will?.
    Because he's indeed don't have any choice. The moment the uchiha planned their coup, they are already on the death list. Danzo stated that the moment hiruzen will act as a hokage, the uchiha will no doubt be defeated/annihilated.(or something like that) The uchiha was bound to be killed anyway so itachi don't have any choice but to killed his clansmen on his own free will just to save his only brother. He wasn't being blackmailed, but rather that's the best thing he can do as a proud member of konoha and of the uchiha clan. He killed them so that they'll stop their madness and for their pride as an elite clan of the konoha.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Obito's story was confirmed true regarding Itachi and his actions. And Danzo believed Obito was Madara because they had met during the Uchiha massacre, something Obito states upon meeting him. Sai's report wouldn't have mentioned anything about "Madara", because no one else was aware of that until the end of the summit. .
    No. Not everything.

    No, naruto's story about his father and the masked man happened before the summit. So, sai's report was all about the masked man who fought minato and the one who used nagato. Well, kakashi did say that "that information" should be reported to danzo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    No, that's not what a coup is at all. If that was the case, then it wouldn't have been called a coup. We have seen both Danzo and Anbu get caught by the Sharingan's genjutsu quite easily. .
    Huh? Well, maybe the meaning of your coup is entirely different from mine. But all i know is that when someone tried to planned a coup, then it means that he'll do everything he can to defeat the current leader/s. He'll use force just to make that plan successful.

    So if the uchiha will take over to the konoha's politics, then it means they need to defeat/kill the current leaders. But, the problem is, the hokage and the elders bodyguard will try to kill them just to protect their leaders. So with that, it's already a war. The elders already said that the uchiha must be killed because of the coup. So the elders, together with the anbus and ninjas will try to killed the uchiha while the uchiha will try to kill them all to make their coup successful. See that? that's how i imagine the coup of the uchiha.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    They made it clear they knew that Itachi was doing what he was doing to protect Sasuke, thus the reason they spoke of him. If they didn't know that, then they would have had no reason to assume that Itachi wouldn't also kill Sasuke on Konoha's orders. .
    No. Fugaku just amazed/shocked that itachi betrayed them and their clan. But fugaku clearly said that he's still so proud of his son. And he just clearly asked itachi to protect his brother.There's no such this as they knew that itachi was doing what he was doing to protect sasuke.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Literally none of what you said is supported by anything within the series. If they were so power-hungry, then they would never have sided against Madara in the first place when he attempted to do exactly what you're claiming they were all about. And they surely wouldn't have remained silent for fifty-some years. Konoha is also far from a democracy. It was already a dictatorship, with a single person having absolute control. .
    No. the hokage is indeed had the absolute control. But that's far from being dictatorship.

    Well, they are no doubt a power-hungry clan. Just imagine, for over fifty-some-years, there's no one from their clan who's strong enough to become a hokage. That's depressing. No wonder they planned for a coup, if they don't have the talent to become a hokage, then it's better for them to take it by force, but ofcourse they're going to fight as a whole. That's power-hungry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    The reason they lost political power was due to the council's prejudices. This was outright confirmed that Tobirama went out of his way to push them away. He literally admits it. Konoha was the problem, something already acknowledged by the Hokages.
    Really? The council has nothing to do with it. I think the problem is the uchiha themselves. And no. Tobirama didn't push them away, in fact, he gave them a role that fits their caliber. Tobirama said the reason why he made the uchiha as a police force, is for them to channel their love to the village and not just on their clan.

    See that? both you and Oro misunderstood tobirama's action/decision. Just look on what happened to an uchiha who channel his love to the konoha, they awaken their MS. So tobirama's action/decision was so awesome. Their love to the konoha would awaken their full powers. Tobirama knows that, he certainly is.

    Just look on sasuke, he didn't awaken his MS by hatred, but rather he awaken it by love. (And soon, he'll going to awaken his rinnegan because of his love to the ninja world, to the konoha and to the ninjas. )

    If the uchiha didn't blinded by their pride and just love their role in the konoha, for some-fifty-years, there would be someone who'll become a damn powerful uchiha hokage. ANd i think all of them would awaken their damn MS. After all, love is a powerful thing.

  8. #83
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    Re: This War Arc is a hint to the redemption of the Uchiha Clan

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    Because he's indeed don't have any choice. The moment the uchiha planned their coup, they are already on the death list. Danzo stated that the moment hiruzen will act as a hokage, the uchiha will no doubt be defeated/annihilated.(or something like that) The uchiha was bound to be killed anyway so itachi don't have any choice but to killed his clansmen on his own free will just to save his only brother. He wasn't being blackmailed, but rather that's the best thing he can do as a proud member of konoha and of the uchiha clan. He killed them so that they'll stop their madness and for their pride as an elite clan of the konoha.
    And again, if that was true, then Danzo wouldn't have had to force Itachi to act. He also wouldn't have had to go behind Sarutobi's back to pull it off. And you clearly don't understand what blackmail is...

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    No. Not everything.

    No, naruto's story about his father and the masked man happened before the summit. So, sai's report was all about the masked man who fought minato and the one who used nagato. Well, kakashi did say that "that information" should be reported to danzo.
    Exactly what about Obito's story regarding Itachi and the massacre was shown not true?

    ... All Naruto knew was that Minato fought some masked man, there was no mention of his identity or anything. That information wasn't revealed til the end of the summit. Danzo knew him as Madara because they had previous dealings.

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    Huh? Well, maybe the meaning of your coup is entirely different from mine. But all i know is that when someone tried to planned a coup, then it means that he'll do everything he can to defeat the current leader/s. He'll use force just to make that plan successful.

    So if the uchiha will take over to the konoha's politics, then it means they need to defeat/kill the current leaders. But, the problem is, the hokage and the elders bodyguard will try to kill them just to protect their leaders. So with that, it's already a war. The elders already said that the uchiha must be killed because of the coup. So the elders, together with the anbus and ninjas will try to killed the uchiha while the uchiha will try to kill them all to make their coup successful. See that? that's how i imagine the coup of the uchiha.
    Definition one and definition two. Your presumption of what they were gonna do makes no sense towards an actual coup, especially since as mentioned, a coup can be done without shedding blood. Some examples of such would be the Cuban coup by Fulgencio Batista in 1952 and the Brazilian Revolution of 1930.

    Aside from the fact that a couple of people fighting is not a war, again, the Uchiha's have the means of defeating others without killing them thanks to genjutsu. And as far as it has been shown, avoiding being caught would be near impossible for them. Kakashi easily took down two Anbu at the same time with a single one. And of course, you're making the massive assumption that upon enacting said coup, they wouldn't call upon their own Anbu allies and quickly take control, before any counterattack could be set in motion.

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    No. Fugaku just amazed/shocked that itachi betrayed them and their clan. But fugaku clearly said that he's still so proud of his son. And he just clearly asked itachi to protect his brother.There's no such this as they knew that itachi was doing what he was doing to protect sasuke.
    There was nothing shocked or amazed about his expression. Fugaku and Mikoto interrupted Itachi when he attempted to explain and stated that they already knew and then acknowledged that the way they thought was different. Again, if they didn't know, they had would have had no reason to not believe that Itachi would just kill Sasuke next, just like all the other children.

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    No. the hokage is indeed had the absolute control. But that's far from being dictatorship.

    Well, they are no doubt a power-hungry clan. Just imagine, for over fifty-some-years, there's no one from their clan who's strong enough to become a hokage. That's depressing. No wonder they planned for a coup, if they don't have the talent to become a hokage, then it's better for them to take it by force, but ofcourse they're going to fight as a whole. That's power-hungry.
    Seriously, the dictionary is your friend. A dictatorship is any government that has absolute power and isn't responsible to the people.

    Aside from the fact that strength has nothing to do with becoming Hokage, as we were actually shown, but who they knew, you still have yet to show anything supporting the idea that they were power-hungry. The fact that it took so long for them to act pretty much goes against that idea, as does accepting death without fighting back. Someone who's power-hungry would not just allow themselves to be killed, as we have seen from various villains like Orochimaru and Danzo.

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    Really? The council has nothing to do with it. I think the problem is the uchiha themselves. And no. Tobirama didn't push them away, in fact, he gave them a role that fits their caliber. Tobirama said the reason why he made the uchiha as a police force, is for them to channel their love to the village and not just on their clan.

    See that? both you and Oro misunderstood tobirama's action/decision. Just look on what happened to an uchiha who channel his love to the konoha, they awaken their MS. So tobirama's action/decision was so awesome. Their love to the konoha would awaken their full powers. Tobirama knows that, he certainly is.

    Just look on sasuke, he didn't awaken his MS by hatred, but rather he awaken it by love. (And soon, he'll going to awaken his rinnegan because of his love to the ninja world, to the konoha and to the ninjas. )

    If the uchiha didn't blinded by their pride and just love their role in the konoha, for some-fifty-years, there would be someone who'll become a damn powerful uchiha hokage. ANd i think all of them would awaken their damn MS. After all, love is a powerful thing.
    The council had everything to do with it. It was outright shown that Danzo purposely set things up so that there was no other option but the massacre, just so that he could steal their power.

    Tobirama never even denied that he acted out of discrimination, something even Hashirama called him out on. And you seem to be forgetting how awakening MS works. MS gets awaken by strong feeling of regret, as shown by Sasuke, Kakashi, and Obito. If love was an option, then Itachi wouldn't have needed to manipulate Sasuke into hating him.

    I would suggest you reread both the discussion over who should be Hokage at the end of the Pain arc and the mechanics of MS, because you are way off in your beliefs.

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    Re: This War Arc is a hint to the redemption of the Uchiha Clan

    Quote Originally Posted by Kisame Hoshigaki View Post
    there is no way madara will become good, he LOVES to fight, literally and loves destruction

    he is not like obito

    he isnt even like oro

    he is a TRUE villain, one who is fighting purely for the love of fighting
    Yes Madara is different to the other villains but then again I thought the same thing about Pain. I thought the same thing about Oro until he bent over for Sasuke, just look at the silly comedy drawings he implemented on Oro. I just don't trust Kishi anymore with his treatment of the so called "villains". It's been 100+ chapters since the arrival of Madara, if he goes down the route of a epic villain, he needs to do it right now by killing some significant characters off. He has brought back the fear factor in the manga though...I'm just saying don't get your hopes up.
    ..: Greatest Doujutsu Prodigies :..

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member marshall313's Avatar
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    Re: This War Arc is a hint to the redemption of the Uchiha Clan

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    And again, if that was true, then Danzo wouldn't have had to force Itachi to act. He also wouldn't have had to go behind Sarutobi's back to pull it off. And you clearly don't understand what blackmail is...
    Don't worry, I understand that perfectly. But the only thing that made me curious is how come from your pov, itachi was being blackmailed by danzo?

    1. The uchiha planned a coup.
    2. The elders literally said that they need to be killed, all of them, even the babies.

    The entire uchihas are already in the death list. So how come danzo would blackmail itachi? Well, I'll agree on you if the uchiha didn't plan for a coup and danzo just order itachi to kill them all for sasuke's sake. That's a blackmail.

    Force? How come? Danzo already proposed to hiruzen to kill them all. And kuharu also said that the uchiha need to be killed for their coup. Danzo just literally explained to itachi that hiruzen will act as a hokage when the time is right. Meaning, hiruzen will as a hokage and protect the konoha. So the uchiha will bound to be killed even without itachi's help. Danzo was merely made the konoha's job more easy to handle the uchiha, and that's itachi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    ... All Naruto knew was that Minato fought some masked man, there was no mention of his identity or anything. That information wasn't revealed til the end of the summit. Danzo knew him as Madara because they had previous dealings.
    No. When naruto mentioned the masked man who controlled the kyubi, kakashi explained them the premonition of jiraiya that t'was madara who summoned the kyubi. And after that, kakashi asked sai to report that info to danzo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Definition one and definition two. Your presumption of what they were gonna do makes no sense towards an actual coup, especially since as mentioned, a coup can be done without shedding blood. Some examples of such would be the Cuban coup by Fulgencio Batista in 1952 and the Brazilian Revolution of 1930.
    Hahahaha. I meant no disrespect, but that's ridiculous RK. We're talking about ninjas and kishi's manga and not the real coup in the real world. And I assure you, my country already experienced a coup without shedding blood and killings. But that's ridiculous and isn't the same at all. Why? Because we're not ninjas. Harharhar

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Aside from the fact that a couple of people fighting is not a war, again, the Uchiha's have the means of defeating others without killing them thanks to genjutsu. And as far as it has been shown, avoiding being caught would be near impossible for them. Kakashi easily took down two Anbu at the same time with a single one. And of course, you're making the massive assumption that upon enacting said coup, they wouldn't call upon their own Anbu allies and quickly take control, before any counterattack could be set in motion.
    A couple of fighting? The uchiha are an elite and powerful clan. If their entire clansmen would fight the elders and the hokage, then it means war to the konoha itself. And no, casting a genjutsu while fighting is entirely different from casting your opponent off guard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    There was nothing shocked or amazed about his expression. Fugaku and Mikoto interrupted Itachi when he attempted to explain and stated that they already knew and then acknowledged that the way they thought was different. Again, if they didn't know, they had would have had no reason to not believe that Itachi would just kill Sasuke next, just like all the other children.
    That's exactly they asked him to protect sasuke.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Seriously, that's exactly what the uchiha government was meant to be, dictatorship. And stop changing the topic. The konoha is a democracy village, they voted for their hokage the same as the Americans who voted for their president. Your president had the absolute control to your mighty country, the same as the hokage to the konoha. So technically, that's far from being a dictatorship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Aside from the fact that strength has nothing to do with becoming Hokage, as we were actually shown, but who they knew, you still have yet to show anything supporting the idea that they were power-hungry. The fact that it took so long for them to act pretty much goes against that idea, as does accepting death without fighting back. Someone who's power-hungry would not just allow themselves to be killed, as we have seen from various villains like Orochimaru and Danzo.
    No, strength and power are part of the requirements for the hokage. They need to be the strongest to protect the konoha.

    No. The problem is, the entire uchiha are powerless compared to obito and itachi. So it doesn't matter if they didn't allow themselves to be killed or they did, because literally, they can't do anything to protect themselves to obito and itachi's power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    The council had everything to do with it. It was outright shown that Danzo purposely set things up so that there was no other option but the massacre, just so that he could steal their power.
    Huh? You're just exagerating. And you're the one who keep on assuming. Danzo and the elders had nothing to do with the uchiha coup. I think t'was you who need to show some scan on danzo who purposely set things up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Tobirama never even denied that he acted out of discrimination, something even Hashirama called him out on. And you seem to be forgetting how awakening MS works. MS gets awaken by strong feeling of regret, as shown by Sasuke, Kakashi, and Obito. If love was an option, then Itachi wouldn't have needed to manipulate Sasuke into hating him.
    Tobirama said that orochimaru was wrong and t'was never his intention.

    Regret? How? Shisui died in front of itachi. Then itachi awaken his MS. Is that a regret? No. It's more like strong feeling of love to his best friend. Obito awaken his MS by his strong feeling of love to rin, and didn't tobirama already explained this one? That the more uchiha love someone, the more his power would awaken.(or something like that)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    I would suggest you reread both the discussion over who should be Hokage at the end of the Pain arc and the mechanics of MS, because you are way off in your beliefs.
    No, I based that belief from kagami, shisui and itachi. Those three awaken their MS through to their love to their village. And no, in fact, if the uchiha didn't planned for a coup, maybe hiruzen will make itachi as a hokage. There are no better candidate than him, I'm pretty sure shikaku and the anbu commander will agree on that, why? Because they know itachi's power and character. His love to the konoha above to his clan would be the best impact for him on why hiruzen would chose him. See? My belief isn't really that ''wayoff''.
    Last edited by marshall313; December 30, 2013 at 06:31 AM.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Ryr's Avatar
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    Re: This War Arc is a hint to the redemption of the Uchiha Clan

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    But the entire uchiha planned for a coup, right? What makes you think itachi killed them all? because they're all bad and evil.
    Itachi killed his clansmen because he was misled by Danzou into believing that it was the only way. Itachi was wrong. If Itachi knew about Danzou's schemes at that point, I think he would not side with Danzou.

    Quote Quote:
    They planned to kill anyone who'll stand in their way for power. A power that didn't belong to them to begin with.

    So the power of governing Konoha rightfully belongs to who? The elders? The only reason why the elders were able to preserve their own powers for decades was because they were successful in leading other clans into believing that the Uchiha was inherently "bad and evil".

    We know that this is not true, considering that Madara was the only true villain and the elder's schemes were equally as evil - e.g. Danzou forcefully remove Shisui's eye for himself and refused to assist during Pain's attack on Konoha.

    Quote Quote:
    Seriously, that's exactly what the uchiha government was meant to be, dictatorship. And stop changing the topic. The konoha is a democracy village, they voted for their hokage the same as the Americans who voted for their president. Your president had the absolute control to your mighty country, the same as the hokage to the konoha. So technically, that's far from being a dictatorship.
    How do you know that an Uchiha Hokage would become a dictator. You don't. You simply pulled that out of your ass. You know what, that's like saying a Black president would become a dictator. Totally wrong except in the minds of a few bigots.

    In actual fact, the elders council was already a dictatorship. They chose the Hokage candidate and then let the shinobis and the Fire Lord "rubberstamp" their decision.

    As long as the elders say yes, the candidate would automatically become the Hokage. Tsunade became the Hokage by virtue of her Senju lineage, Jiraiya was nominated because he was the Third's student and Danzou was nominated because he was an elder.

    Quote Quote:
    No, strength and power are part of the requirements for the hokage. They need to be the strongest to protect the konoha.
    Lol @ Tsunade. Strong my ass. Itachi would kill her in seconds.

    Tsunade has no merit whatsoever to become Hokage save for the fact that she is the first's granddaughter.


    Quote Quote:
    Huh? You're just exagerating. And you're the one who keep on assuming. Danzo and the elders had nothing to do with the uchiha coup. I think t'was you who need to show some scan on danzo who purposely set things up.
    There goes all your credibility. So basically the Uchiha rebelled because they felt like it? After 60 years of the founding of Konoha, the Uchihas suddenly rebelled because.

    If all the Uchiha wanted was power, they could have rebelled when they were still stronger in the earlier days, not wait until 60 years later.

    There is only one reason for this - the Uchihas eventually found out that the Konoha leadership has this bigoted mistrust towards them, and everything that was given to them (including the police force task job) was a FARCE.
    Last edited by Ryr; December 30, 2013 at 08:16 AM.

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  13. #87
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member marshall313's Avatar
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    Re: This War Arc is a hint to the redemption of the Uchiha Clan

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryr View Post
    Itachi killed his clansmen because he was misled by Danzou into believing that it was the only way. Itachi was wrong. If Itachi knew about Danzou's schemes at that point, I think he would not side with Danzou.
    No. The only thing that itachi was wrong is he didn't let sasuke know. He already admitted that. The uchiha's coup can't be stop. The uchiha's war towards the konoha's leaders is already certain. I think both shisui and itachi tried to stop it but they failed. But anyway, I'm really curious on how itachi was being misled by danzo. The manga shown that what danzo told to itachi is somehow correct and not some lies. Because hiruzen will indeed act as a hokage. And if that were to happen, sasuke's life isn't certain to be save. That's why danzo proposed a deal/choices. It's the only for danzo to save the village and that's the only choice of itachi to save his brother.

    But anyway, correct me if I'm wrong, didn't itachi already knew danzo's schemes when shisui told him that he tried to stop the war but danzo stole his eye? And I think both you and RK are underestimating itachi too much.(can't believe I said that. ) He isn't someone who'll fall from a blackmail and he can't be misled by someone. That man had a great insight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryr View Post
    So the power of governing the village rightfully belongs to who? The elders? Don't make me laugh, the only reason these "elders" were able to preserve their own power for decades was because they successfully led the other clans into believing that the Uchihas were inherently "bad and evil", and that they "the elders" were the best people to govern. We know that this is not true considering that Madara was the only villain, and that the elders' schemes were equally as evil - e.g. Danzou stole Shisui's eye for his genjutsu and refused to help the village until Tsunade was killed off during Pain's invasion.
    To someone who's putting the village above to his clan, to someone who'll do everything to protect the village and its people.

    That seems odd. I'm pretty sure the villagers knew that the uchiha is the most elite clan of the konoha. And I've never seen/read in the manga where a member of the other clan said about the uchiha as an evil and bad. The ninjas of konoha was really think highly to the uchiha. So I doubt the elders did that kind of action. They wouldn't just tell the clans that uchiha are bad and evil. The manga don't have that kind of indication,

    The elders was able to preserve their own power because they're still strong to sit and govern the konoha. That's their law I think. They can sit in those power until they get bored and resign. Yea, danzo is bad, or I think he's very bad. But all of that is for the sake of the konoha. Well, he let the people died when nagato attacked the konoha, but it's simply because he knew tsunade can heal almost all of them........ and all of that is because of his ambition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryr View Post
    I am going to repeat this again. The cause of the Uchiha rebellion is the fact that the the Konoha leadership refuse to honor the power sharing aspect of the peace accord signed between the two clans and effectively placed the Uchihas under house arrest where they were constantly under surveillance and deliberately barred from taking part in the decision making process for the village. All these happened after the Uchiha exiled Madara.

    In our modern world the act of hoarding power is known as tyranny, and the practice of securing all the important political positions for your siblings, disciples and relatives is known as blatant cronyism.

    So much for being the "good guys".
    Power sharing? Why's that? Even hashirama doesn't have the power to put madara into the hokage sit even though he's the leader of the senju. Why? Because the moment the senju and uchiha built their home/village, the konoha, they already become a part of democracy. The leader of the senju and the leader of the uchiha don't have the power at that time to sit in the hokage's throne. And it's all because of democracy.

    But anyway, madara himself didn't claim that power-sharing even though he really wants to become the hokage. Then maybe that's impossible to begin with. I think they already demolish ''who's stronger and they're the leader'' stuff. It's all about the democracy, the villagers or ninjas will vote for their hokage. Or maybe even the elders. So that power-sharing is really irrelevant.

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    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: This War Arc is a hint to the redemption of the Uchiha Clan

    At this point, it's pretty much clear that the elders are guilty, Danzo being the guiltiest of them all. Who suspected the Uchiha being behind the Kyuubi attack? The elders did, without proof but Madara being able to control the Kyuubi decades ago. They stripped away political equality from the Uchiha and refused to give it back, which indicates that the elders wanted to keep the power to themselves and were power hungry. Hiruzen was the only one who didn't want to exterminate the Uchiha, and based on Danzo's statements and conversation with Itachi, he desperately wanted the Uchiha killed.

    As we learned, it was not for Konoha's own good, but it was to amass power for Izanagi. Maybe for Konoha and for the world, but Danzo still sacrificed countless of lives to become stronger. Although the Uchiha were planning on a coup, that was in response to the elders and their treatment of the clan, we still don't know if there'd have been bloodshed or not, especially among the innocent people. Madara was the only Uchiha who turned bad, and that was due to fear for his clan.

    Tobi turned bad because of Madara and because he's an idiot, but he could still be redeemed. Sasuke wasn't truly bad until Tobi told him the truth, and even then Sasuke's convictions weren't 100%. Then he turned good after realizing what and why. Though the Uchiha aren't innocent, they're the least guilty. The elders are just powerhungry douches, and Danzo likely looked for any reason to kill the Uchiha and steal their eyes.

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    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: This War Arc is a hint to the redemption of the Uchiha Clan

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    Don't worry, I understand that perfectly. But the only thing that made me curious is how come from your pov, itachi was being blackmailed by danzo?

    1. The uchiha planned a coup.
    2. The elders literally said that they need to be killed, all of them, even the babies.

    The entire uchihas are already in the death list. So how come danzo would blackmail itachi? Well, I'll agree on you if the uchiha didn't plan for a coup and danzo just order itachi to kill them all for sasuke's sake. That's a blackmail.

    Force? How come? Danzo already proposed to hiruzen to kill them all. And kuharu also said that the uchiha need to be killed for their coup. Danzo just literally explained to itachi that hiruzen will act as a hokage when the time is right. Meaning, hiruzen will as a hokage and protect the konoha. So the uchiha will bound to be killed even without itachi's help. Danzo was merely made the konoha's job more easy to handle the uchiha, and that's itachi.
    The entire Uchiha clan wasn't on the death list, which is the point. Danzo went behind Sarutobi's back and did it, against his wishes. Sarutobi was working on a way to solve the problem that wouldn't have required any blood to be shed. Danzo ignored that and went against his desire, and threatened Itachi with Sasuke's death if he didn't do it. That's blackmail. If it were as you have tried to claim, that the Uchiha clan had to die anyhow, then Danzo wouldn't have had to tell Itachi to do it nor would Sarutobi have opposed said mention of it. It simply would have been done, without any threat towards a child. But it wasn't, instead Itachi got forced into doing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    No. When naruto mentioned the masked man who controlled the kyubi, kakashi explained them the premonition of jiraiya that t'was madara who summoned the kyubi. And after that, kakashi asked sai to report that info to danzo.
    Rechecking, it appears that did happen. Regardless, doesn't change the original point, that Danzo already knew of him because of their previous dealings.

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    Hahahaha. I meant no disrespect, but that's ridiculous RK. We're talking about ninjas and kishi's manga and not the real coup in the real world. And I assure you, my country already experienced a coup without shedding blood and killings. But that's ridiculous and isn't the same at all. Why? Because we're not ninjas. Harharhar
    Yeah, we're talking about a group of ninjas who can knock someone out just by looking at them. The Uchiha clan is infamous for this power, the power of their genjutsu, to the point that it's basic knowledge that a single ninja against a single Uchiha is suppose to run. By canon, the only way to counter their genjutsu is to either be another Uchiha with the Sharingan or a prefect Jinchuuriki, meaning the higher ups in Konoha would have been out of luck against them. There isn't a single reason to believe that they wouldn't have used the tactic that they're most famous for here, especially when it would have meant granting them power without having to face any resistances or opposition by the rest of Konoha.

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    A couple of fighting? The uchiha are an elite and powerful clan. If their entire clansmen would fight the elders and the hokage, then it means war to the konoha itself. And no, casting a genjutsu while fighting is entirely different from casting your opponent off guard.
    Fighting against four people is not a war... And no it's not. We have seen Itachi, Madara, and Sasuke easily cast a genjutsu in the middle of battle. Even Kakashi has done that.

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    That's exactly they asked him to protect sasuke.
    Which only works if they knew that he wouldn't kill Sasuke no matter what.

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    Seriously, that's exactly what the uchiha government was meant to be, dictatorship. And stop changing the topic. The konoha is a democracy village, they voted for their hokage the same as the Americans who voted for their president. Your president had the absolute control to your mighty country, the same as the hokage to the konoha. So technically, that's far from being a dictatorship.
    And where was that shown? Your making claims that aren't backed up by anything.

    And no, voting in a leader doesn't stop something from becoming a dictatorship. Stalin was elected, so was Chavez of Venezuela. What makes a dictator is that they have absolute power without any checks by the people. The President of the United States doesn't have absolute control, he's kept in check by the Legislative and Judicial branches of government, which each branch answers to not just each other but the public.

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    No, strength and power are part of the requirements for the hokage. They need to be the strongest to protect the konoha.

    No. The problem is, the entire uchiha are powerless compared to obito and itachi. So it doesn't matter if they didn't allow themselves to be killed or they did, because literally, they can't do anything to protect themselves to obito and itachi's power.
    No they aren't. If that was the case, then Tsunade and Danzo wouldn't have been picked. Kakashi is far from the strongest person in the village, yet he got chosen because of who he was connected to. And if it was about the strongest, then Sarutobi wouldn't have been allowed to retake his position after growing weaker.

    Except that's not true and goes against your continuous claim about them being power-hungry. Because it wouldn't matter to a power-hungry person how overpowered they were, they would still keep fighting, like Madara kept doing against Hashirama. And they definitely wouldn't just allow themselves to be killed without any kind of attempt at fighting back.

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    Huh? You're just exagerating. And you're the one who keep on assuming. Danzo and the elders had nothing to do with the uchiha coup. I think t'was you who need to show some scan on danzo who purposely set things up.
    No, I'm not. We were specifically told that it was their actions that caused the coup to happen. We were also shown that Danzo took Shisui's eye when he attempted to prevent the coup.

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    Tobirama said that orochimaru was wrong and t'was never his intention.

    Regret? How? Shisui died in front of itachi. Then itachi awaken his MS. Is that a regret? No. It's more like strong feeling of love to his best friend. Obito awaken his MS by his strong feeling of love to rin, and didn't tobirama already explained this one? That the more uchiha love someone, the more his power would awaken.(or something like that)
    When did Tobirama say that? He didn't deny anything of what Orochimaru claim, and made it clear it didn't matter what happen to them in the end.

    It would have been regret, having to help kill his best friend. And Obito's awoke upon seeing Rin being killed, again regret at him not being capable of doing anything to help her, thus the whole bring her back to life in the dream world. Um, aside from the fact that what Tobirama said isn't true, he was talking about the regular Sharingan, not MS, which is why we know it's not true.

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    No, I based that belief from kagami, shisui and itachi. Those three awaken their MS through to their love to their village. And no, in fact, if the uchiha didn't planned for a coup, maybe hiruzen will make itachi as a hokage. There are no better candidate than him, I'm pretty sure shikaku and the anbu commander will agree on that, why? Because they know itachi's power and character. His love to the konoha above to his clan would be the best impact for him on why hiruzen would chose him. See? My belief isn't really that ''wayoff''.
    First off, there is nothing about Kagami awakening MS, so that makes your argument moot. Secondly, we have been told how MS is awaken, and it's not through love. If that was an option, then again, Itachi wouldn't have had Sasuke live for nothing but hatred. Thirdly, we clearly saw the way a Hokage is picked, and it wouldn't have mattered what Shikaku or the Anbu cared about. And fourth, according to Tobirama, there were alot of Uchiha's who were all for the village instead of clan, so that kind of blows a hole in your whole argument about the Uchiha clan.
    Last edited by Rikudou King; December 31, 2013 at 12:57 AM.

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