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Translations: Gintama 507 (2)
Team 1 (Soifon, Tessai Tsukabishi, Riruka Dokugamine)
Team 4 (Rōjūrō Ōtoribashi, Shūkurō Tsukishima, Momo Hinamori)
Don't forget to read the rules first before you proceed. You can click on character names below pictures to go to their Bleach wiki article for more information. This is a team fight, characters in the same team help each other against the other team.
Welcome to the Quarter Finals of team fights of the second Bleach Tournament!
Here are the contestants who will battle against each other to advance to the next round in the team bracket:
TEAM 1 TEAM 4
The master of kido and the master of assassinations...
Too many possibilities - but as a starter:
It is entirely possible for Tessai to do kido similar to what Hacchigen did (perhaps not identical), trap the others (or just Rojuro or Tsukishima) and allow them to eat a point blank nuclear missile...
Tsukishima only has to scratch the ground with his sword and he can instantly make a barrier for missiles, or scratch Riruka (easily the weakest here of their team) and have her attack Tessai from behind. I'd say Rose is slightly stronger than Soifon - not by much, but the hollow boost can't be ignored - and Tsukishima is more haxxed than Tessai. Riruka and Momo will die as soon as someone sneezed at them, of course, but Team 4 still wins this...
I'm sorry for tsukishima, but soifon is too fast,she would blitz him before he cab use his fullbring, and then tessai is a beast, he was above hachi,although the latter receive hollowification. Team 1 wins,imo.
I'm going Team 1 on this. Soifon takes out Tsukishima and Hinamori within seconds, and then there's just Rojuro left. To be honest, Tsukishima's ability was the pitch for this team, and unfortunately he has met two people that are more than capable matches for it.
Just by having Tessai around, Hinamori's usefulness drops to zero. Anything she can weave, I cannot imagine him not seeing it, so that's one down before the match even started IMO.
Rose with mask and shikai couldnt handle starks wolves, whose explosions weren't all that impressive. Though size is no indicator of damage, Tessai can replicate that level of damage with his hado. The whips ability seemed threatening, but by nature of being a whip, it is probably not so useful up close. So with Tessai having hado at distance, and strength/durability up close, I don't see Rose holding his own.
Soifon is at least a bit faster than Byakuya, but not enough to make a huge difference. Tsukishima is very fast to hold his own against Byakuya. What really gives Soifon the edge that Byakuya didn't is her hakuda skill which should FAR exceed Byakuya's and allow her to parry and counter anything Tsukishima throws at her, and with two hit kill, she only needs to counter twice to win.
Riruka can just keep riding the coattails to team victory. Even if Tsuki gets her, whats she gonna do? Get kicked into the atmosphere or bound with kido?
If Tsuki manages to cut either of the Captains from the opposing team, I'll say its pretty much a wrap. If he cuts Soi Fon, he'd become her equal in physical ability and thus her greatest assets (Speed and Fighting ability) are gone. Not to mention he'd also gain full knowledge on her abilities which given what they are, dont exactly leave her with many options. If he cuts Tessai, given that he apparently was prepared to counter whatever kido Byakuya could throw at him, chances are he'd be able to do the same against Tessai. I wonder though, if cutting say a barrier made by Tessai would allow him to place himself into Tessai's past as cutting Senbonzakura did with Byakuya
I highly doubt Soi Fon would just outright blitzkill Tsuki though, before he can use BoTE on her. I give her speed credit but not that much. For me it comes down to whether or not Tsuki could manage to use BoTE on either opponent before he's taken out. If he manages to do so, the tide shifts favorably to them
I'm leaning toward Team 4
Just thought I'd throw this out there, but Soifon has only been cut by one opponent, Aizen. Granted, a little out of context considering of her 4 big fights, one was Yoruichi, the other was Barragan, with whom she had help. But any sharp object that has come her way (don't forget Yoruichi's little "boot" blade) were all blocked except for Aizen's quadruple KO (...and I guess Omaeda's amputation).
I have a hard time seeing Tsukishima landing a cut on her. She is fast, and excellent at parrying. Not to mention she does have her incomplete Shunko, which still likely packs a punch, so that even if her Suzumebachi arm is busy parrying, her unarmed strikes alone can take him down eventually.
Book of the end doesn't make Tsukishima any better in any areas unless I'm mistaken. It only allows him to manipulate the victim/insert himself into their past, it wouldn't make him anyone's equal or make him more powerful. He can then do as you pointed out; become so familiar with the opponents attacks that he can counter/evade them all. That doesn't mean he got more powerful. As for cutting kido having the same effect as cutting Senbonzakura, I do not think so. Kido is just an expenditure, once fired it should be separate, whereas a zanpakto is a part of that individuals spirit.
Being hit by a blade specifically isn't a fair condition as Yoruichi barely used one in her fight against her, same for Barragan. The person that did (Aizen), hit her. Frankly, there's not much that can be drawn from any of this, its sort of like when some assume Komamura is the weakest Captain because he's lost all but 1 of his fights, despite the fact his losses came against Aizen twice and Bug Tousen specifically. So it's better to just go with what we know about her (That she'd crazy fast, agile, and a great close quarters fighter with nice reflexes) instead of how many times she's been hit by a blade specifically to judge anything
If Tsuki lands a hit on Suzumebachi, chances are he'd cut through it. I believe part of its ability is to cut through anythingQuote:
But it does. It's the entire reason he went from being easily pushed back by Byakuya to being able to keep up with his speed and everything else. Simply knowing an ability doesn't make one able to combat it properly (See weakened Byakuya vs his own Bankai when fighting As Nodt), you need to be physically able to do so as wellQuote:
And then there's this, where he blatantly admits he trained with Byakuya and thus improved just as he did
Seems pretty clear BoTE allowed him to become Byakuya's equal, no?
I'll go with thatQuote:
I agree, it was just something to point out as I just noticed she does use her zan defensively and rather well each time, and it is a tried and true tactic to use a bracer of some sort as a parrying tool both in martial arts and western style fencing, which was more of my point as I was thinking it is easy for someone to overlook her defensive skills, and just say "oh she's just fast and can kick" (not that you were saying that, just pointing it out). As for the ability to cut through anything, I dunno. It is sharp, but cutting a few petals of SZ is not really enough for me to believe that, especially when he couldn't immediately cut Byakuya's zanpakto while sealed (though it did eventually break).
Not to mention his ability to cut a place and make traps, either his ability to plan traps really sucks, or he is limited in that regard, because all he did was make one pillar thing pop up and crumble.
Anddddddd, firstly I forgot he said that, but at the same time, couldn't it be that he simply knew all his improvements, and reacted accordingly? And the As Nodt example does not work in any capacity because of the overwhelming levels of fear Byakuya was experiencing. Easily pushed back is hard to gauge from something off panel. Tsuki didn't exactly look beat up, just a few scrapes. While there is physical requirements, Tsuki explains quite clearly how he overcame Byakuya once he cut SZ, showing that his previous attempts failed cause he wasn't familiar with how to approach it. Him being pushed back wasn't clearly due to lack of physical capability.
Given that he says he trained with Byakuya and thus improved by the same amount, and not something to indicate he's referring to simply knowing about Byakuya's improvements (He actually already says he knows Byakuya improved when he notes his skill with a blade, so it'd be redundant to emphasize that again with his remark on improving as well) I'm not sure how it can be taken any other wayQuote:
For an example using a character without the fear aspect at all, see Hitsugaya vs Cang DuQuote:
Tsuki's down on a knee with quite a few cuts and such on his being, whereas Byakuya is untouched and unmoved. He even point out that Tsuki can't even approach him. That's indicative of a pretty vast gulf in ability, and Byakuya was just using shikaiQuote:
After cutting his blade, whereas prior to doing so Tsuki couldn't approach Byakuya and only got behind him after diverting his attention, we see him slip behind him with Byakuya still looking in his direction. That feat obviously doesn't simply become possible just by knowing Senbonzakura, its also reflective of Tsuki's own speed to be able to get past senbonzakura to begin with
He explains that he knows Senbonzakura inside and out, but he also says he himself improved along with Byakuya by the same amount. That's the crutchQuote:
If he's training with Byakuya, he'll grow to be able to keep up with him. Otherwise the training wouldn't be much training at all, would it? Given that Tsuki explicitly says he improved by the same amount Byakuya did over the course of his training, I think it's clear that BoTE augmented his abilities. When you factor in that Byakuya appeared regretful that his training over the timeskip was useless, and its here that Tsuki says they improved together, it should be clear that it's not simply about certain techniques or whatnot either given how almost every other character improved across the board
Last edited by Buzz Killington; July 09, 2013 at 07:42 PM.
Giving it to Team 4.
Really, what it comes down to is Tessai's lack of feats. He's implied to be really strong, and it's really easy to just throw Hachi's Kido feats at him and assume he can do it, but that's wrong, even if it's fairly reasonable. He's got one Hado, and a couple forbidden techs with completely unknown practicality in combat. Not to mention that Tsukishima's here. One cut and he knows the ins and outs of everything Tessai can do. Given that Tsukishima knew that there were counters to literally every Kido Byakuya had in his arsenal, I don't see why Tessai's forbidden or higher level techs would be devoid of weakness. Soi Fon's good, and Riruka actually could make a difference, but at the end of the day, Team 4 is just a really well-balanced and more reliable team, with solid hax on the side.
Hitsugaya vs Cang Du, Hitsu was not beaten, and the fight between them had been occurring for quite some time, so also not a good example. From all we can tell, he too had only scratches. Bleach is a manga were people get punched through the torso and still function (such as Tsuki), so these minor scratches really don't mean too much. When it was Stark shooting Shunsui, and made him look extra toasty, everyone said how it did nothing, why should these scuffs be indicative of anything significant as being so much weaker? especially in parts of a fight we didn't see and how many times have we seen a fighter with those level of injuries carry one like nothing happened.
As for Tsuki's claims, Zommari claimed he was the fastest, but that is very debatable. If he knows exactly how Byakuya improved, then he would catch up with it too in the sense he understands everything Byakuya learned inside and out. Improvement can simply mean skill, and applied skill is pretty dependent on understanding. No reason to think his improvement after cutting Byakuya is a matter of power/reiatsu when skill and knowledge explain it just as well.
So to go from being completely unable to do that before cutting sbk to being able to easily do so after it implies an increase in speed moreso than simply knowledge. It's not as if he used some intricate method to get behind him, he simply moved there I posted the scans to emphasize this in my last post
Why would he have to? Tsuki didQuote:
I never said he was beaten, nor does whether Hitsugaya was heavily damaged or not matter. The point is that simply having knowledge does not enable you to fight against an opponent equally if you're lacking in other areas. Hitsugaya was in the same position as Tsuki, damaged whereas Cang Du was not. Obviously, he wasn't gaining any traction in their fightQuote:
Sure, character statements should be judged on their own merits, but there's no reason at all to assume Tsuki was lying here. No need to get into the Zommari thingQuote:
Since when do Bleach characters improve greatly yet not grow in power, especially after training? Knowledge hardly substitutes power, such a thing has been emphasized to us quite a few times (Both Kenpachi and Aizen made statements pertaining to power being the overriding factor in direct confrontations). As an example, Unohana was a master of 8000 sword schools (and Zaraki barely knew Kendo), and she knew quite well how Zaraki fights, yet he defeated her.Quote:
Not seeing a difference? So if Tsuki also improves his skill in-line with Byakuya, he becomes a stronger fighter because of it. If he cuts Soi Fon, lets assume she trained over the time-skip to become faster, he'll improve as she did because per your interpretation here, he'll understand how she did it and reflect that upon himself, thus he'd be able to keep up with her. Thus rendering her advantage mootQuote:
Unless you're saying that, even if he BoTE's her and makes it so that they've been training together all her life, she's still going to blitz his lights out or still be too fast for him to reliably hit? And that makes sense? Does training with someone extensively so much so that they even use all their best techs and abilities not improve one's own attributes or something? I'd like to cite Renji training Sado with his Bankai per Urahara's request and how it made Sado much stronger and according to Urahara, able to use the power equivalent to that of a Bankai. This is just what training does, and if Tsuki trains with Byakuya and states he improved with him by the same amount and looking at how people like Renji improved in just about every attribute, Byakuya would kinda suck if his improvements werent comparable...
Just seems like all the implications there support they became stronger together
Last edited by Buzz Killington; July 10, 2013 at 04:26 AM.
I was referring to how he never pointed it out to himself, and he didn't point it out first, Tsukishima was leading him.
Once again, you keep saying "Tsuki was physically lacking before hand", but your grounds for that are weak. And for Hitsu, we know nothing of Cang Du's own strength and power, so really, it is still a bad example. You cannot assume he only fought with the stolen Ban, how effectively he did or did not wield it, etc.
If Zaraki and Aizen are reasonable examples to you that apply to anyone else but them and Ichigo/possibly Yama, then perhaps no point arguing this anymore....
IMO, you are overblowing panels that have tiny little scratches relative to Bleach's norm as having significance when they were acquired OFF PANEL. For example, if Tsukishima increased speed, why couldn't he dodge the SZ carrying punch that Byakuya beat him with? Is that where familiarity comes in (or a lack thereof) out of convenience sake for your argument? If it was raw speed, why not just dodge it? Raw speed very strongly implies high reflexes. Yet the moments something unfamiliar was thrown his way, he was forced to retreat far the first time, and defeated the second.