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Thread: haki and logia

  1. #31
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Schabrak's Avatar
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    Re: haki and logia

    Quote Originally Posted by David Rose View Post
    Dude, don't get all fired up, when you're missing the point. All i said is that a logia user only has to focus on strenghtening his CoA for defense, since their offense is already near perfect. Also i sair they arguably can't use full armament, when they are in an elemental state, because you can't solidify a liquid while stil performing a liquid state. They more likely use their CoA to cancel the attackers, like Aokiji in his quarrel with WB. He gets punched, then shatters -> he's able to maintain his elemental state.

    We already know logia users are using Haki all the time.
    And a medicore logia with only defensive CoA attacking someone with a big CoA value in both defense/offense is gonna end how in your scenario? The logia user is almost always gonna lose, unless his powers are that overwhelming.

    As we've seen from Caribou or Smoker and many other characters, their offense can be pretty shitty when matched up with a strong haki user.

    I'm still waiting for a compelling argument that logia users, who aren't that sepcial anymore in the New World, wouldn't have to train their offensive haki skills.

    I have the opinion that Aokiji willingly opened up a hole to evade WBs thrust.

    No, we do not know that logia users use haki all the time, where did that nonsense come from? Enel? Oo

    And again, hardening can be used offensive and defensive at the very same time, so I don't see a reason to categorize it as being either of those. Evidence? Luffys usage of it. Also it's may only be the ultimate form, nowhere does it hint to being the only form of defense or offense, so why even put hardening into the discussion? We don't even know if you can seperatly train d/o-ively or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Rose View Post
    Well i guess if he could've known Shanks showing up to block his weak punch against Coby, he would've brought his own Haki imbued sword to have a better offense.
    How about he imbues his magma fist with haki? Where exactly did you get the idea that it wouldn't work?
    Last edited by Schabrak; July 16, 2013 at 01:44 PM. Reason: grammar
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  2. #32
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member David Rose's Avatar
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    Re: haki and logia

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    And a medicore logia with only defensive CoA attacking someone with a big CoA value in both defense/offense is gonna end how in your scenario? The logia user is almost always gonna lose, unless his powers are that overwhelming.

    As we've seen from Caribou or Smoker and many other characters, their offensive can be pretty shitty when matched up with a strong haki user.
    Because the concept of the much stronger fighter winning is suprising to you? That's exactly the concept of logias and Haki. If your CoA is much stronger than the CoA of the logia user, or he isn't good at dodging (like Monet vs. Tashigi) you win and logias are shitty, duh. Tough luck.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    I'm still waiting for a compelling argument that logia users, who aren't that sepcial anymore in the New World, wouldn't have to train their offensive haki skills.
    I'm not participating to just convince you alone but rather to juggle with some ideas and theories. Wether you find any argument compelling is your own opinion, that doesn't mean it's more or less true.
    Oh well, i guess so far we have seen one logia user, who actually trains his CoA for offense. That would be Smoker, since smoke kinda sucks for elemental attacks and the jutte is his signature weapon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    I have the opinion that Aokiji willingly opened up a hole to evade WBs thrust.
    The you're wrong. If WB used a CoA imbued attack Aokiji can't just let that pierce him, because the Haki forces his body to solidify. So in order to take the hit he has to counter WB's Haki with his own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    No, we do not know that logia users use haki all the time, where did that nonsense come from? Enel? Oo
    Well, actually Enel was in fact using it most of the time. Also we can assume that anytime a logia user blocked a Haki imbued attack he was also using Haki.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    And again, hardening can be used offensive and defensive at the very same time, so I don't see a reason to categorize it as being either of those. Evidence? Luffys usage of it. Also it's may only be the ultimate form, nowhere does it hint to being the only form of defense or offense, so why even put hardening into the discussion? We don't even know if you can seperatly train d/o-ively or not.
    Hardening isn't the perfect form of CoA, or we would've seen Rayleigh use it. You can still categorize actions in a fight as defensive or offensive. Example: Luffy fighting CC. He used Armament for both with his elephant guns. But he did this for attacking. The defensive benefit that he wasn't affected by the gas is inferior as he didn't had to use it for that if he didn't attack in the first place. So it's perfectly possible to define a difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    How about he imbues his magma fist with haki? Where exactly did you get the idea that it wouldn't work?
    I didn't said it wouldn't at all. I just assumed that i won't work to use hardening while you're in an elemtal state. The CoA aura that Rayleigh used for defense does without a doubt. Then again, what benefit does Akainu get from using Haki for attacks? It's not that he's a hard puncher. I rather have the vague theory that he likes to rather focus on the destructive porperties of his magma. That's the whole point why logias are powerful. They don't have to punch people, since they can freeze or melt them to death in an instant.
    The whole concept behind CoA Haki in the first place was to enable other characters to fight someone lika Akainu without bringing tons of water to every fight. You can reread it here if you don't believe me.
    http://www.mangareader.net/103-56928...apter-597.html

    >>David rose to beat the Philistines, with five smooth stones and a sling.<<

  3. #33
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Schabrak's Avatar
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    Re: haki and logia

    Quote Originally Posted by David Rose View Post
    Because the concept of the much stronger fighter winning is suprising to you? That's exactly the concept of logias and Haki. If your CoA is much stronger than the CoA of the logia user, or he isn't good at dodging (like Monet vs. Tashigi) you win and logias are shitty, duh. Tough luck.

    I'm not participating to just convince you alone but rather to juggle with some ideas and theories. Wether you find any argument compelling is your own opinion, that doesn't mean it's more or less true.
    Oh well, i guess so far we have seen one logia user, who actually trains his CoA for offense. That would be Smoker, since smoke kinda sucks for elemental attacks and the jutte is his signature weapon.

    The you're wrong. If WB used a CoA imbued attack Aokiji can't just let that pierce him, because the Haki forces his body to solidify. So in order to take the hit he has to counter WB's Haki with his own.

    Well, actually Enel was in fact using it most of the time. Also we can assume that anytime a logia user blocked a Haki imbued attack he was also using Haki.

    Hardening isn't the perfect form of CoA, or we would've seen Rayleigh use it. You can still categorize actions in a fight as defensive or offensive. Example: Luffy fighting CC. He used Armament for both with his elephant guns. But he did this for attacking. The defensive benefit that he wasn't affected by the gas is inferior as he didn't had to use it for that if he didn't attack in the first place. So it's perfectly possible to define a difference.

    I didn't said it wouldn't at all. I just assumed that i won't work to use hardening while you're in an elemtal state. The CoA aura that Rayleigh used for defense does without a doubt. Then again, what benefit does Akainu get from using Haki for attacks? It's not that he's a hard puncher. I rather have the vague theory that he likes to rather focus on the destructive porperties of his magma. That's the whole point why logias are powerful. They don't have to punch people, since they can freeze or melt them to death in an instant.
    The whole concept behind CoA Haki in the first place was to enable other characters to fight someone lika Akainu without bringing tons of water to every fight. You can reread it here if you don't believe me.
    http://www.mangareader.net/103-56928...apter-597.html
    Who's deciding who's stronger or that the stronger one would always win? That's nonsense, haven't you paid attention to the fights in OP? It's not always about it's about dis-/advantages of Devil Fruits/Haki/fighting & weapon style/luck, all intermixed somehow. The enemy of a logia user would first have to be even able touch the user, CoA isn't the only way to getting better at defense, but considering your scenario, why would the non-logia always win? Do you have a database of every single user and their history in martial arts etc? No you do not. Therefore it's a pretty baseless theory so far. Just because a logia user is touchable doesn't turn him into a weakling, remember the Kizaru vs Rayleigh skirmish. He seemed pretty capable despite fighting offensively with his logia powers. Yeah I know Kizaru will have a pretty strong value in CoA himself, but we've got to work with what we have.

    You said that "their offense is already near perfect", which is simply not true. They have their advantages, but in the end every logia is different and so are the properities of their elements. Did Caribou strike you as near perfect in his offense? Smoker had the advantage of his choke; the ex-admiral trio had some of the strongest fruits imaginable, add experience, fighting capability and haki , so of course they would have a nearly perfect offense, they are one of the top 10 strongest characters in the manga. Enel was pushed by the perfect compability with CoO, it might have also helped to be in the sky, right where the thunder bolts originate from, simple gold was his doom though; Blackbeard has the "best" fruit available; Crocodile had a huge experience with his powers, putting him on lvl2 enabling him to dry up stuff, being in a desert gave him a huge advantage, water was his ultimate weakness and who hasn't water available excluding desert islands; Caesar's gas could be used in a variety of ways, his suffocation was rather defensive, gastille was quiet nice, but also only an AoE attack, I wonder if we will see his laser saber again, too cool to be used twice? Monet was quiet fast do to her elemental form, but what struck out to me was her strong defensive iglo layers, not her sharp teeth, a bite stripping one of all warmth was quiet fearsome though. Hm will give this one to you, but only because Oda was using them so rarely in the past and couldn't have shown them being overly weak during those times. Croco/Enel/Teach are opponents, the admirals had to be incredibly strong, CC and Monet had variety and Smoker hasn't reached his peak yet.

    Still not seeing why they shouldn't train CoA to be capable of fighting Yonkou crews.
    So smoker, as the exception proves the rule? :P

    The part of "opening the hole" would come directly before he was touched by the bisento, he knew it would have pierced through him if he hadn't. I don't think we know how a logia users body reacts when part of his body is broken/ripped away when attacked, will it be like a usual logia vs anybody fight where the element just vanished and reforms or does it simply allow to fend of the attack?

    That's news to me, thanks for making the most obvious things more obvious.... We knew about Enel and Mantra, we know about logia users fending of a haki imbued attack being haki users. That wasn't a persuasive argument.

    What if Rayleigh didn't want to use it, didn't show us Silvers using it during the 16 months of training or Oda hasn't thought about that before his 4 week hiatus to think over changes of the time-skip. Hey characters might have always used a bit of haki, but we never knew. Law beating Vergo doesn't make it any less the strongest form yet, it just means that Laws Devil Fruits power combined with his will and haki was stronger than Vergos defense.
    We can differentiate between offensive and defensive usage, Hardening, once equipped though is usable for both in succession, back to back.

    Let's consider it true, hardening isn't the perfect form, Reyleighs show off on the island and against Kizaru was, it was invisible. What stops somebody like Akainu from acquiring such power than since it would just add a punch to his attacks no matter their form. And just because it's the singly way to freely fight with logia users doesn't stop it from being used by those as well. CoA might enable someone to touch the logia user, but it doesn't turn them into hard, unmovable objects.
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  4. #34
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member David Rose's Avatar
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    Re: haki and logia

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Who's deciding who's stronger or that the stronger one would always win? That's nonsense, haven't you paid attention to the fights in OP? It's not always about it's about dis-/advantages of Devil Fruits/Haki/fighting & weapon style/luck, all intermixed somehow.
    Sorry man, but that's pretty much the whole concept of every fight in One Piece. It's all about the specific situation and the combination of powers. Luffy needed water/blood to overcome Croco and Foxa needed his whole ship to get a shot at Luffy, despite him beeing much stronger.
    What i said was just an example that in a fight between a logia with CoA and a normal fighter with a much stronger CoA the normal fighter would most likely win. We are kinda spinning around on that one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    You said that "their offense is already near perfect", which is simply not true. They have their advantages, but in the end every logia is different and so are the properities of their elements. Did Caribou strike you as near perfect in his offense?
    Caribou is a joke in himself. The whole point of him is to show that in the new world even logia user have to be good fighters, because they're no longer intangible to everyone. I could imagine a huge variety of attacks where mud comes in handy and what's possible with it. Caribou's just a jerk and shouldn't be part of any power discussion. :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Still not seeing why they shouldn't train CoA to be capable of fighting Yonkou crews.
    So smoker, as the exception proves the rule? :P
    Well everybody is training it in the new world, if he can. I'm just saying that some people don't need it. Why would Kizaru and CC have to imbue their light/gas sabres with Haki? They simply don't need it.
    Smoker always had hit Jutte and he will probably keep it the whole manga. It's just his signature weapon, which basically makes him the only CoA user that will have to imbue his weapon since he can't produce it via his DF. So yeah, he's the exception that rather proves my point. :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    The part of "opening the hole" would come directly before he was touched by the bisento, he knew it would have pierced through him if he hadn't. I don't think we know how a logia users body reacts when part of his body is broken/ripped away when attacked, will it be like a usual logia vs anybody fight where the element just vanished and reforms or does it simply allow to fend of the attack?
    As far as i've seen it so far, the useage of CoA enables a logia user to cancel the CoA imbued in the weapon, or fist of his enemy. Thus he can become intangible again and shatters, or melts, or becomes fire.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    What if Rayleigh didn't want to use it, didn't show us Silvers using it during the 16 months of training or Oda hasn't thought about that before his 4 week hiatus to think over changes of the time-skip.
    That's possible, but i think if Rayleigh would've frequently used armament, we would've seen it. His character is now pretty much gone and we probably won't see him again. Why not let him fully show off, like he did in those panels. Why would there be more he didn't show back then?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Hey characters might have always used a bit of haki, but we never knew. Law beating Vergo doesn't make it any less the strongest form yet, it just means that Laws Devil Fruits power combined with his will and haki was stronger than Vergos defense.
    That's actually your best point so far. It's really a big question how big the influence of a DF is. But then again it would be kinda special for Law, since his ability is kinda unique. Like, how can he even combine it with Haki. Does it affect the whole room? Beats me. We'll probably see it in the future.


    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    We can differentiate between offensive and defensive usage, Hardening, once equipped though is usable for both in succession, back to back.
    Whole point of me was, that if you punch someone with hardening it's an offensive move. If you had an enemy like Don Creek with his spikes, then CoA would provide a defensive benefit. Nonetheless it's an offensive move at the end of the day. We're probably just saying the same with different words though. :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Let's consider it true, hardening isn't the perfect form, Reyleighs show off on the island and against Kizaru was, it was invisible. What stops somebody like Akainu from acquiring such power than since it would just add a punch to his attacks no matter their form. And just because it's the singly way to freely fight with logia users doesn't stop it from being used by those as well. CoA might enable someone to touch the logia user, but it doesn't turn them into hard, unmovable objects.
    Well we don't know. But we already saw the strongest of the strongest fight and we didn't see it. So we can assume it won't happen. Since this was way before Haki became such a huge topic it might've changed now. But we won't know for sure until we see it. And that could actually take some time, given the current arc. I'd rather go with what we know now than what we may see in the future. Doesn't mean I'm right. Or wrong. We're moving in circles here. Time for the new chapter to be released. :P

    >>David rose to beat the Philistines, with five smooth stones and a sling.<<

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