Not a member? Register now!
Announcements
Manga returns! Catch up with the details. Enjoy downloading, translating, and scanlating manga HERE legally!
Like us on Facebook, follow us on Twitter! Celebrate another year with MH and read our yearbook.
Manga News: Check out this week's new manga (7/21/14 - 7/27/14).
Forum News: Visit new sections for Nisekoi and Kingdom!
Translations: Gintama 503 by kewl0210 , One Piece 753 by cnet128 , Bleach 589 (2)

View Poll Results: Who wins?

Voters
31. You may not vote on this poll
    The results in this poll are hidden.
  • Shinji Hirako

    The results are hidden 0%
  • Ichigo Kurosaki

    The results are hidden 0%
Thread Closed
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 58

Thread: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Shinji vs Ichigo

  1. #16
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member shuha27's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Country
    United States
    Posts
    303
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Shinji vs Ichigo

    I have to agree with everyone and vote with Shinji here. Ichigo is more of a instinctive fighter which will completely ruin him against Shinji's shikai. His ability will wreck someone like Ichigo who has more of a straight forward fighting style.

  2. #17
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner lyght's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Country
    United States
    Age
    18
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    38
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Shinji vs Ichigo

    im just say it... although shinji's shikai is powerful it does have its weaknesses. as aizan said " a battle between captain lv fighters is a battle of retsues(how ever you spell that)" ichigo can probably cancel shinji's shikai with his power alone see as he got a boost from all captains and vice-captains when he got his powers back.

  3. #18
    Banned 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Country
    Poland
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,199
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Shinji vs Ichigo

    Quote Originally Posted by lyght View Post
    im just say it... although shinji's shikai is powerful it does have its weaknesses. as aizan said " a battle between captain lv fighters is a battle of retsues(how ever you spell that)" ichigo can probably cancel shinji's shikai with his power alone see as he got a boost from all captains and vice-captains when he got his powers back.
    It's not Shinji's shikai weakness, but weakness of every ability. It is true for abilities like Suzumebachi. One have to CONCIOUSLY use his reiatsu to supress enemy's ability. Countering Suzumebachi is easy. Concentrate reiatsu in place of hit to nullify ability. In Shinji's case... it is not that easy. Ichigo would have to supress ALL HIS SENSES in order to escape that ability. You think one could nullify Kyoraku's ability? Or Ukitake? It DOESN'T work in all cases. In Shinji's case it won't work, as it is not matter of concentrating reiatsu in one place, but supressing ALL senses and still fighting. Even Aizen didn't do it. Despite seeing Soi-Fon's fail, Shinji was still confident, that his ability would work. His ability has certain range, by sending your reiatsu to enemy he controls them. Is it possible for Ichigo, who sucks at controlling his reiatsu and is, in fact, wasting most of it, like Kenpachi, to use it? He can't even use Kido, let alone perfectly controlling your reiatsu and suppresing reiatsu that is altering your perception, while continously fighting Shinji. Who is no pushover by the way, with mask in non-shikai he can trash unreleased Grimmjow like a noob without breaking a sweat. Even Ichigo didn't trash him that badly during their fight. That leads me to belive, that Shinji in shikai and with mask is stronger than Kyoraku, but battle between those two is really a battle of abilities. One can be stronger depending on circumstances.

    BTW. Was it Aizen who was attacked back then? He made it look like it was him, but then who do we see? Hinamori. He could have swapped earlier and made it look like Suzumebachi is countered. In fact, Hinamori is smaller and she never made a hit. To not make them suspicious he could have said "I nullified your ability!", but we don't know if this is true. Well, it makes sense, but we still have to take it with a grain of salt IMO.
    Last edited by Duniak; July 15, 2013 at 09:35 AM.

  4. #19
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner lyght's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Country
    United States
    Age
    18
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    38
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Shinji vs Ichigo

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    It's not Shinji's shikai weakness, but weakness of every ability. It is true for abilities like Suzumebachi. One have to CONCIOUSLY use his reiatsu to supress enemy's ability. Countering Suzumebachi is easy. Concentrate reiatsu in place of hit to nullify ability. In Shinji's case... it is not that easy. Ichigo would have to supress ALL HIS SENSES in order to escape that ability. You think one could nullify Kyoraku's ability? Or Ukitake? It DOESN'T work in all cases. In Shinji's case it won't work, as it is not matter of concentrating reiatsu in one place, but supressing ALL senses and still fighting. Even Aizen didn't do it. Despite seeing Soi-Fon's fail, Shinji was still confident, that his ability would work. His ability has certain range, by sending your reiatsu to enemy he controls them. Is it possible for Ichigo, who sucks at controlling his reiatsu and is, in fact, wasting most of it, like Kenpachi, to use it? He can't even use Kido, let alone perfectly controlling your reiatsu and suppresing reiatsu that is altering your perception, while continously fighting Shinji. Who is no pushover by the way, with mask in non-shikai he can trash unreleased Grimmjow like a noob without breaking a sweat. Even Ichigo didn't trash him that badly during their fight. That leads me to belive, that Shinji in shikai and with mask is stronger than Kyoraku, but battle between those two is really a battle of abilities. One can be stronger depending on circumstances.

    BTW. Was it Aizen who was attacked back then? He made it look like it was him, but then who do we see? Hinamori. He could have swapped earlier and made it look like Suzumebachi is countered. In fact, Hinamori is smaller and she never made a hit. To not make them suspicious he could have said "I nullified your ability!", but we don't know if this is true. Well, it makes sense, but we still have to take it with a grain of salt IMO.
    if it was hinamori she would be dead since soifon hit twice.
    i dont think ichigo would stop using his senses just release his reiatsu outward to cancel the range effect.

  5. #20
    Banned 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Country
    Poland
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,199
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Shinji vs Ichigo

    Quote Originally Posted by lyght View Post
    if it was hinamori she would be dead since soifon hit twice.
    i dont think ichigo would stop using his senses just release his reiatsu outward to cancel the range effect.
    Please, read carefully. I wrote that Hinamori was smaller and Aizen could just make SoiFon feel, that she made a hit. In fact, she fought she stabbed Aizen, but the truth was, she stopped her blade just in front of her, as she is much much smaller.

    If sending your reiatsu all around you would cancel Shinji's ability it would be too easy. You have to remember, that we're talking about huge difference in power there. Ability-based Zanpakutos would be USELESS if they could be countered by sending your reiatsu. Is Ichigo that much stronger than Masked Shinji? I don't think so.

    Also, Ichigo didn't get a "boost" by getting captains' reiatsu. Ichigo was a container, that had space for reiatsu, but it was empty because Ichigo lost his powers. They just filled it. It's not like he has 20x times reiatsu of a captain now. He has reiatsu that he had space for. He is not as strong as in his FGT form, but he is certainly above Ichigo that fought Gin, due to his training in Dangai.

  6. #21
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Zeta42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Country
    Ukraine
    Age
    22
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    482
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Shinji vs Ichigo

    Ichigo with his current level of strength wins hands down.

  7. Like 1 Member(s) likes this post
  8. #22
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Gourmet World
    Country
    Mariejoa
    Age
    26
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    4,415
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Shinji vs Ichigo

    I don't really see how anyone besides Yama, Aizen or Juha Bach can win against Ichigo in one on ne among those who we've managed to see fighting.
    Ichigo is just that strong. At the same time Shinji isn't a tank and will go down in one shot from Ichigo. Ichigo's speed is considerably above anyone in the Tournament. Remember how Kirinji dumped Soi Fong in speed? Ichigo even without his Bankai managed to at least match Kirinji's speed and managed to really suprise him.

    At the same time Shinji doesn't have any serious attacking move that can take Ichigo down. Of course Ichigo might have some problems if Shinji releases his Shikai, but even base Shikai Ichigo (since we consider him as he was before his Zan was rebuild) would be strong enough and fast enough to take down Shinji before he uses his Shikai.

    P.S. Remember. Tousen's Bankai ability is even more hax than Shinji's, but it didn't help him against Ken-chan. It won't help Shinji against Ichigo as well. The difference in fire and tanking power is too big.

  9. #23
    Banned 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Country
    Poland
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,199
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Shinji vs Ichigo

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    I don't really see how anyone besides Yama, Aizen or Juha Bach can win against Ichigo in one on ne among those who we've managed to see fighting.
    Ichigo is just that strong. At the same time Shinji isn't a tank and will go down in one shot from Ichigo. Ichigo's speed is considerably above anyone in the Tournament. Remember how Kirinji dumped Soi Fong in speed? Ichigo even without his Bankai managed to at least match Kirinji's speed and managed to really suprise him.
    Ichigo was in constant Bankai state. So yeah, he was in bankai when he countered Kirinji's punch. Still, he didn't dodge it. He instinctevely tried to counter and almost succeded.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    At the same time Shinji doesn't have any serious attacking move that can take Ichigo down. Of course Ichigo might have some problems if Shinji releases his Shikai, but even base Shikai Ichigo (since we consider him as he was before his Zan was rebuild) would be strong enough and fast enough to take down Shinji before he uses his Shikai.
    Why would Shinji wait with activating Shikai knowing Ichigo's strength and speed? After activating Shikai it's game over for Ichigo. Doesn't matter how strong or fast he is. Shinji is a leader of Vaizards, they respect him.

    http://www.mangareader.net/94-669-13...apter-215.html

    With mask he can trash unreleased Grimmjow without effort. Something that Ichigo in Bankai AND Mask couldn't achieve. So I'm pretty sure, that Masked Shinji is almost equal to current Bankai Ichigo. After that fight we've never seen him fight seriously. He didn't even use his mask against Aizen.

    Quote Quote:
    P.S. Remember. Tousen's Bankai ability is even more hax than Shinji's, but it didn't help him against Ken-chan. It won't help Shinji against Ichigo as well. The difference in fire and tanking power is too big.
    Oh, is it more hax? Nah. Kenpachi, who fights instinctively all the time is the best match for it. In fight with Shinji, he'd die. And remember, that Tousen didn't have a mask and enhanced speed. Kenpachi could avoid being hit in vital points. As soon as he felt hit he dodged on REFLEX (something that WON'T work on Shinji). So no, Tousen's Bankai isn't that hax. Also, remember, this is Shinji's SHIKAI.

  10. #24
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner lyght's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Country
    United States
    Age
    18
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    38
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Shinji vs Ichigo

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Ichigo was in constant Bankai state. So yeah, he was in bankai when he countered Kirinji's punch. Still, he didn't dodge it. He instinctevely tried to counter and almost succeded.




    Why would Shinji wait with activating Shikai knowing Ichigo's strength and speed? After activating Shikai it's game over for Ichigo. Doesn't matter how strong or fast he is. Shinji is a leader of Vaizards, they respect him.

    http://www.mangareader.net/94-669-13...apter-215.html

    With mask he can trash unreleased Grimmjow without effort. Something that Ichigo in Bankai AND Mask couldn't achieve. So I'm pretty sure, that Masked Shinji is almost equal to current Bankai Ichigo. After that fight we've never seen him fight seriously. He didn't even use his mask against Aizen.



    Oh, is it more hax? Nah. Kenpachi, who fights instinctively all the time is the best match for it. In fight with Shinji, he'd die. And remember, that Tousen didn't have a mask and enhanced speed. Kenpachi could avoid being hit in vital points. As soon as he felt hit he dodged on REFLEX (something that WON'T work on Shinji). So no, Tousen's Bankai isn't that hax. Also, remember, this is Shinji's SHIKAI.
    shinji fought an unreleased one armed grimmjaw, i dont think you can use that to reinforce your argument.

  11. Like 1 Member(s) likes this post
  12. #25
    Banned 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Country
    Poland
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,199
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Shinji vs Ichigo

    Quote Originally Posted by lyght View Post
    shinji fought an unreleased one armed grimmjaw, i dont think you can use that to reinforce your argument.
    Of course I can. That one-armed Grimmjow could handle Ichigo when his mask came off. And at the same time, Shinji trashed him without effort. I can use that to say, that Masked Shinji is clearly above Bankai Ichigo, and almost on par with Masked Bankai Ichigo. And of course I can use that to say, that Shinji wouldn't be one-shotted by Ichigo. Ichigo after time-skip after getting reiatsu from captains ISN'T much stronger than he was in Aizen arc. It's not like Ichigo could one-shot Kirge, right? But Shinji was only bruised after attack on SS. He probably fought SR as well. Every Vaizard is perfectly fine after invasion. Unlike other captains who are either in coma or are missing something (eye, ear), or DEAD. Bankai Ichigo isn't all invincible, really. His speed WILL NOT affect Shinji. All battles are with full intent to kill. Shinji WON'T wait with activating his Shikai. And saying, that "Shikai Ichigo is strong enough to take down Shinji before he releases his Shikai, in a matter of seconds" is ridicoulous IMO. Shinji IS NOT Fullbringer. He won't be OHKO'd by Ichigo in Shikai. He will handle him with ease. And even Bankai won't help Ichigo that much. He can be fast and cut, but he won't know when, where and how to cut.
    Last edited by Duniak; July 15, 2013 at 01:32 PM.

  13. #26
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner lyght's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Country
    United States
    Age
    18
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    38
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Shinji vs Ichigo

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Of course I can. That one-armed Grimmjow could handle Ichigo when his mask came off. And at the same time, Shinji trashed him without effort. I can use that to say, that Masked Shinji is clearly above Bankai Ichigo, and almost on par with Masked Bankai Ichigo. And of course I can use that to say, that Shinji wouldn't be one-shotted by Ichigo. Ichigo after time-skip after getting reiatsu from captains ISN'T much stronger than he was in Aizen arc. It's not like Ichigo could one-shot Kirge, right? But Shinji was only bruised after attack on SS. He probably fought SR as well. Every Vaizard is perfectly fine after invasion. Unlike other captains who are either in coma or are missing something (eye, ear), or DEAD. Bankai Ichigo isn't all invincible, really. His speed WILL NOT affect Shinji. All battles are with full intent to kill. Shinji WON'T wait with activating his Shikai. And saying, that "Shikai Ichigo is strong enough to take down Shinji before he releases his Shikai, in a matter of seconds" is ridicoulous IMO. Shinji IS NOT Fullbringer. He won't be OHKO'd by Ichigo in Shikai. He will handle him with ease. And even Bankai won't help Ichigo that much. He can be fast and cut, but he won't know when, where and how to cut.
    that ichigo doesnt compare to the ichigo in this fight. this ichigo one shots stter ritters.

  14. #27
    Banned 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Country
    Poland
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,199
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Shinji vs Ichigo

    Quote Originally Posted by lyght View Post
    that ichigo doesnt compare to the ichigo in this fight. this ichigo one shots stter ritters.
    We are taking Ichigo as he was before having his Zanpakuto broken. So we are looking at Ichigo that was fighting Kirge. IIRC, he didn't oneshot him, did he? And that Ichigo is weaker than post-Dangai Ichigo, but stronger (but not much) than pre-Dangai Ichigo. That said, I can safely assume, that in terms of psychical ability, Masked Shinji is somwhere on par with current Bankai Ichigo now. Of course, he is be slightly weaker, but it's not like Masked Shinji is as slow as Komamura. I'm pretty sure, that Masked Shinji could outrun Soifon without much difficulty and outpower Kenpachi (limiter ON, before his training in Muken). Not as strong and fast as post-timeskip Ichigo, but close. And he still has that fearsome ability, that is game over for Ichigo. And it's not like Bankai Ichigo can one shot Shinji. That's just not happening. If Masked Shinji can be one-shotted by Shikai Ichigo, then Ichigo is already stronger than Yamaji. And Yamaji is the only one who may have been able to do it. Against Kyoraku and Ukitake he didn't do squat. They're alive with not even being burned by his Shikai. I guess noone can one-shot Shinji before he says "Sakanade" which is like 0,5 second.
    Last edited by Duniak; July 15, 2013 at 05:09 PM.

  15. #28
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Buzz Killington's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    220
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Shinji vs Ichigo

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Of course I can. That one-armed Grimmjow could handle Ichigo when his mask came off. And at the same time, Shinji trashed him without effort. I can use that to say, that Masked Shinji is clearly above Bankai Ichigo, and almost on par with Masked Bankai Ichigo.
    No you cannot. Well to be more accurate, you can say whatever you wish, however that doesn't make it correct. Ichigo during this time could barely control his mask, and we know that when it breaks on its own he's left in an exhausted state. Infact, Grimmjow himself even acknowledges it. We even see at a later date that simply donning his mask for a few moments causes rapid exhaustion, and his mask didn't reach his limit during that time either

    So at best you have Masked Shinji overpowering a 1-armed Grimmjow with a cero, who was mere moments from being finished off by Masked Ichigo. That in no way proves that Masked Shinji is on a fresh Bankai Ichigo's level (It does prove he's stronger than exhausted Bankai Ichigo however), and much less a Masked Bankai Ichigo, as there's no correlation between Masked Ichigo's performances and Shinji's. Just because Ichigo could overpower that version of Grimmjow and Shinji a beaten down version of that Grimmjow does not make imply equality

    Then there's also the fact that Ichigo's power wasn't static pre-skip, not even pre-dangai. He increasingly became more powerful. As for the "without effort" comment, Shinji himself disagrees
    Quote Quote:

    And of course I can use that to say, that Shinji wouldn't be one-shotted by Ichigo
    This is completely baseless. A short skirmish with Grimmjow pre-skip in no way proves what Shinji can take from pre-royal realm Ichigo.

    Quote Quote:
    Ichigo after time-skip after getting reiatsu from captains ISN'T much stronger than he was in Aizen arc
    Completely baseless

    Quote Quote:
    It's not like Ichigo could one-shot Kirge, right?
    This has no correlation to Shinji, nor anything

    Quote Quote:
    His speed WILL NOT affect Shinji
    Again, baseless

    Won't even go over the rest. Just going to say that your argument for Shinji's physical capabilities is incredibly weak, and full of holes. Whether you think he can win with his shikai's ability is one thing, but attempting to measure his power against Ichigo's based on that one fight with Grimmjow in Karakura Town is fruitless

    For example, if I were to ask you to prove to me that Masked Shinji (No Shikai) could defeat full powered Grimmjow as he was during the last fight with Ichigo, even if Grimmjow was in base, you'd be completely unable to do that using just the fight in KT as support
    Last edited by Buzz Killington; July 15, 2013 at 06:50 PM.

  16. Like 1 Member(s) likes this post
  17. #29
    Banned 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Country
    Poland
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,199
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Shinji vs Ichigo

    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Killington View Post
    No you cannot. Well to be more accurate, you can say whatever you wish, however that doesn't make it correct. Ichigo during this time could barely control his mask, and we know that when it breaks on its own he's left in an exhausted state. Infact, Grimmjow himself even acknowledges it. We even see at a later date that simply donning his mask for a few moments causes rapid exhaustion, and his mask didn't reach his limit during that time either
    First fight, Grimmjow vs Ichigo. Ichigo didn't get any power-up other than mask and access to his Hollow powers. Did Ichigo get trashed? Yeah, totally, leaving one wound on Grimmjow's body. Then he said, that even if he fired 1000 of it, he wouldn't stand a chance.

    In the same panel you showed Grimmjow says, that without that mask he can trash Ichigo without any effort. And he showed it before. So of course I can use Shinji's performance as proof to prove my point, that Masked Shinji is psychically stronger than Bankai Ichigo. Even in HM fight, Ichigo didn't really trash Grimmjow. The fact is, Ichigo had to use mask because he and Inoue would get KILLED with Gran Rey Cero.



    Quote Quote:
    So at best you have Masked Shinji overpowering a 1-armed Grimmjow with a cero, who was mere moments from being finished off by Masked Ichigo. That in no way proves that Masked Shinji is on a fresh Bankai Ichigo's level (It does prove he's stronger than exhausted Bankai Ichigo however), and much less a Masked Bankai Ichigo, as there's no correlation between Masked Ichigo's performances and Shinji's. Just because Ichigo could overpower that version of Grimmjow and Shinji a beaten down version of that Grimmjow does not make imply equality
    The difference in power there is so evident, that I could just ignore fatigue and jump to conclusion, that Masked Shinji is indeed stronger than Bankai Ichigo, fresh or not. And looking for corelation between their speeds is useless. It's like saying "We don't know if Ichigo's Getsuga Tenshou is as strong as his VL form Cero because we have no corelation". And we will never get. They won't have a race for us to show us who is faster. We base our knowledge on their feats. We assume, we look for evidence. That's what this forum is all about. Saying everything is baseless is plain stupid, as NOONE can prove, that Masked Shinji really is faster or slower than Bankai Ichigo. But I can safely assume, that if Masked Shinji is slightly faster than Bankai Ichigo, and Ichigo's mask is a HUGE boost to both speed and strength, then Masked Shinji can't compete in terms of speed. And that's the only thing I can do. They're not enemies, they never really fought in their current state. I can say, that unmasked Shinji was trashing Ichigo in Shikai. I can say, that Hollowfied Ichigo was stronger than Hiyori. I can say,

    Quote Quote:
    Then there's also the fact that Ichigo's power wasn't static pre-skip, not even pre-dangai. He increasingly became more powerful. As for the "without effort" comment, Shinji himself disagrees
    Where? Saying he won't be going easy on him doesn't make his win any less effortless. Or does it? Don't read too much into it. It's not like he really needed to try to shoot that Cero. We have different definitions of "effort" I guess. I didn't say he didn't even try. I'm saying, that it wasn't hard for him. It was easy. Not much effort. For you, effortlessly means without using your attacks or one-shoting? Well, he dodged few of his attacks without mask, launches at him, overpowers him, shoots Cero. Easy-peasy. Do you see soooo much effort in it? Or you like to change definitions of some words to suit your point? The whole point of your post is not to discuss it. It is to disagree with me. Ego-boost? I don't really care, but it's funny.


    Quote Quote:
    This is completely baseless. A short skirmish with Grimmjow pre-skip in no way proves what Shinji can take from pre-royal realm Ichigo.
    It's just an example. Shinji didn't really show much so far, so we have to work with little information we got. I didn't even try to use that as argument, that he can take Ichigo. I used it only to prove, that his psychical abilities are making him able to

    1. Activate Sakanade without being one-shoted.
    2. Deal with Ichigo's speed in Bankai if Sakanade wasn't for some reason activated yet, then activate it.

    Activating Sakanade is game over for Ichigo.

    Quote Quote:
    Completely baseless
    Yeah, so counter that. Prove me wrong. The whole purpose of creating soul-sword by Urahara and putting LITTLE, TINY portion of reiatsu in that sword was to make Ichigo REGAIN his powers. It didn't make him stronger all of a sudden. It was meant to activate powers, that he lost and were deep in his soul. It just filled "container" for reiatsu, that Ichigo had twice as big as captains. It wasn't his power. It activated his power. If all that reiatsu was suddenly his then

    1. No need for training Kenpachi and RG. Just put everything you have in that sword and make Ichigo ultimate killing machine, Yamaji included.
    2. Reiatsu amplification technique was used only in mod-souls and in RG's food. It was banished in SS.

    Thus, this reiatsu COULDN'T become Ichigo's reiatsu. It couldn't expand his reiatsu capacity. Thus, amount of reiatsu he has is the same as he had before. Also, he didn't really one-shot Kirge in Bankai, so for me he isn't that much stronger than he was before. Kenpachi handled 3 SRs easily (one mid-dif), Ichigo struggled with ONE. If he had aaaaalll that reiatsu that G13 put there, then he would one-shot everyone. If he had Yamaji's reiatsu, Juha would be easy opponent for him.

    Quote Quote:
    This has no correlation to Shinji, nor anything
    You're seriously annoying. Your attitude is just childish. You don't care about that discussion. You lost interest long time ago. The only thing you want to do is to disagree with me. You didn't even read what that comment related to and you go with "This doesn't concern Shinji". He said Ichigo now is one-shoting SRs now. So I said, that he didn't one-shot Kirge, so not really. This discussion is about Shinji AND Ichigo. And now I didn't write about Shinji, but Ichigo and SRs. Does it make sense to you? Should I make some short explanation after every sentence, so you won't try so hard to say it's "baseless" or "it has no connection to Shinji". Or is it too hard for you to understand? Or are you writing just to piss me off? Well, try harder.

    Quote Quote:
    Again, baseless
    So counter that, kid. Let's see how much "base" you can get from manga so far. Something that would relate Ichigo and Shinji NOW. A>B>C=D is the only thing we can do now. It's the only base we can use. If you want to keep up this arrogant attitude then prove me wrong there. If you can't, don't write. In discussions on this forum the only thing you can do is assume. It strongly depends on your point of view and interpretation. If it's baseless for you, prove me wrong, show your "baseful" explanation, or just sit quietly. Disagreeing with me to boost your ego is just annoying. You won't piss me off, just irritate me. If that's what you want, you're welcome. Keep it up!

    Quote Quote:
    Won't even go over the rest. Just going to say that your argument for Shinji's physical capabilities is incredibly weak, and full of holes. Whether you think he can win with his shikai's ability is one thing, but attempting to measure his power against Ichigo's based on that one fight with Grimmjow in Karakura Town is fruitless

    For example, if I were to ask you to prove to me that Masked Shinji (No Shikai) could defeat full powered Grimmjow as he was during the last fight with Ichigo, even if Grimmjow was in base, you'd be completely unable to do that using just the fight in KT as support
    Trying to prove it that way is much less fruitless, than you trying to counter it. Prove, that Ichigo now is enough to deal with Masked Shinji without any effort. You can't, because you don't know Shinji's limits in mask. He was NEVER outrunned, he was never beaten. You trying to prove it would be as fruitless to me, as my explanation to you. I showed some panels and tried to use some logic to prove it. You just go saying "It's not enough" "That assumption is baseless IMO" "You can't think like that because I think otherwise" (really childish attitude if you ask me). Instead of trying so hard to attack me, attack all my points with panels. You think I didn't know, that Grimmjow was injured and tired back then?

    About proving Masked Shinji vs base Grimmjow. And how can I do it without making assumptions from panels we've seen? Did they fight in that state? Nope, so I have to work with what I have. If it's not enough for you to base my point on, OK, it's your opinion. IMO it's enough. You say "panels you've shown are not enough to say [something]". Those are THE ONLY panels, that show some correlation between Shinji and Grimmjow. If I didn't base my opinion on it, I'd have to make up tons of assumptions and use A>B>C logic (I still do it, though). So I have 2 options

    1. Work with what I have, that you consider "baseless"
    2. Or work without base, which is from definiton BASELESS.

    So it's either baseless for some or completely baseless, thus your whole post and saying how baseless it is is just stupid for me, as you yourself have no base to say it's baseless. So I can say, that you saying my reasoning is baseless is baseless, as I consider your base not enough. The only thing you did was saying my base wasn't reliable. So you basically did nothing. All bark, no bite so far. Again, work harder.

  18. #30
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Buzz Killington's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    220
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Shinji vs Ichigo

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    First fight, Grimmjow vs Ichigo. Ichigo didn't get any power-up other than mask and access to his Hollow powers. Did Ichigo get trashed? Yeah, totally, leaving one wound on Grimmjow's body. Then he said, that even if he fired 1000 of it, he wouldn't stand a chance.
    And this same Ichigo moments before was so afraid of using his power that he had trouble killing a fodder hollow. This same Ichigo later gets trashed by Hiyori because he was afraid to use his power, again. All for fear of his hollow taking over

    So drawing anything from Ichigo prior to mastering his mask is already a flawed endeavor, because he isn't fighting to his full potential (Yet you feel this is enough of a sample size to state definitively that Shinji is stronger than Bankai Ichigo pre-skip. Clearly a hasty generalisation fallacy, but whatever). Additionally, this is an entirely different fight than the one we were discussing, and Grimmjow had both his arms

    Quote Quote:
    In the same panel you showed Grimmjow says, that without that mask he can trash Ichigo without any effort.
    Grimmjow did NOT say that. Let's stop making things up. K?

    Quote Quote:
    So of course I can use Shinji's performance as proof to prove my point, that Masked Shinji is psychically stronger than Bankai Ichigo.
    No, no you cannot. You didn't support this position at all. At best you can say that masked Shinji is stronger than Pre-Huecu Mundo exhausted Bankai Ichigo, who's afraid to use his powers. Other than that? No

    Quote Quote:
    Even in HM fight, Ichigo didn't really trash Grimmjow.
    Which does nothing for your argument, because by the time this fight occured Ichigo is both stronger and able to keep his hollow at bay. Not to mention Grimmjow is more powerful in Hueco Mundo and has both his arms as well, so his fighting ability increased. What Ichigo could do to Grimmjow there means absolutely nothing for Shinji, because you don't know if Shinji could do it too. You can only bring you already flawed assumptions

    Quote Quote:
    The fact is, Ichigo had to use mask because he and Inoue would get KILLED with Gran Rey Cero.
    Failing to see how Ichigo using his mask to stop Base Grimmjows GRC means anything in relation to Masked Shinji

    Quote Quote:
    The difference in power there is so evident, that I could just ignore fatigue and jump to conclusion, that Masked Shinji is indeed stronger than Bankai Ichigo, fresh or not.
    Nice try but no you can't just ignore fatigue. Not sure why you even thought that would be acceptable?


    Quote Quote:
    And looking for corelation between their speeds is useless. It's like saying "We don't know if Ichigo's Getsuga Tenshou is as strong as his VL form Cero because we have no corelation".
    Except you do, because R1 Ulquiorra tanked his Getsuga completely, even Released Grimmjow did. Meanwhile, R2 Ulquiorra, an even stronger character, was damn near killed by the cero. So yes, you do need a correlation. Attempting to cite other cases to justify that you don't doesn't change that

    Not to mention, I didn't even mention speed there

    Quote Quote:
    Saying everything is baseless is plain stupid, as NOONE can prove,
    No, it's stupid attempting to refute someone else's claims if you can't prove your own, which you tried to do with lyght. Calling something baseless that's exactly that is not stupid, it's just labeling something for what it is. If you state something and cannot support that, then it's baseless
    Quote Quote:

    Where? Saying he won't be going easy on him doesn't make his win any less effortless. Or does it? Don't read too much into it. It's not like he really needed to try to shoot that Cero. We have different definitions of "effort" I guess. I didn't say he didn't even try. I'm saying, that it wasn't hard for him. It was easy. Not much effort. For you, effortlessly means without using your attacks or one-shoting? Well, he dodged few of his attacks without mask, launches at him, overpowers him, shoots Cero. Easy-peasy.
    To state that he won't go easy on him means that he isn't going to give minimum effort, that's all there is to it. To ignore this and then still attempt to say he went easy on him is factually incorrect

    Quote Quote:
    Do you see soooo much effort in it? Or you like to change definitions of some words to suit your point? The whole point of your post is not to discuss it. It is to disagree with me. Ego-boost? I don't really care, but it's funny.
    And I find it funny that you're attempting to change what you meant now in an attempt to save face, because apparently you forgot Shinji himself said he wouldn't go easy on Grimmjow. Everything you typed in the above quote is clearly an attempt to deflect, such as accusing me of changing definitions and such. How about just saving all that extra and putting forth a valid argument?


    Quote Quote:
    It's just an example. Shinji didn't really show much so far, so we have to work with little information we got. I didn't even try to use that as argument, that he can take Ichigo. I used it only to prove, that his psychical abilities are making him able to

    1. Activate Sakanade without being one-shoted.
    2. Deal with Ichigo's speed in Bankai if Sakanade wasn't for some reason activated yet, then activate it.

    Activating Sakanade is game over for Ichigo.
    Except, you didn't prove that. All you proved was that Shinji can apparently perform better than an exhausted version of Bankai Ichigo, and down an opponent who was about to be finished off by Ichigo in a matter of moments (and Grimmjow still got right back up, ready to keep going)


    Quote Quote:
    Yeah, so counter that. Prove me wrong. The whole purpose of creating soul-sword by Urahara and putting LITTLE, TINY portion of reiatsu in that sword was to make Ichigo REGAIN his powers. It didn't make him stronger all of a sudden. It was meant to activate powers, that he lost and were deep in his soul. It just filled "container" for reiatsu, that Ichigo had twice as big as captains. It wasn't his power. It activated his power. If all that reiatsu was suddenly his then
    What? I'm not going to do your job for you. You need to prove that he didn't get stronger, you made a positive claim, and I'm in denial of it.

    Quote Quote:
    1. No need for training Kenpachi and RG. Just put everything you have in that sword and make Ichigo ultimate killing machine, Yamaji included.
    2. Reiatsu amplification technique was used only in mod-souls and in RG's food. It was banished in SS.
    Are these supposed to be the only ways possible that Ichigo could've gotten stronger? I mean, it can't be that his being able to combine his Fullbring power with his own Shinigami power had no effect on his power could it (It's not like Ginjou outright stated that combining his Fullbring power with his shinigami power gives him power transcending Shinigami? Or that it's possible the fullbring made him stronger?)? I mean that's certainly possible, and the fact that that's possible means you just gave me a false dichotomy, and your reasons for Ichigo gaining power don't have to be the only ones

    It's not like before ever regaining his Shinigami powers Tsukishima noted that Ichigo's power in his Fullbring form was already nearing his heights as a Shinigami? It's not like Ichigo's practice swing was confused by Ginjou to be a Getsuga stronger than what he was capable of before, is it?

    Quote Quote:
    Thus, this reiatsu COULDN'T become Ichigo's reiatsu. It couldn't expand his reiatsu capacity. Thus, amount of reiatsu he has is the same as he had before. Also, he didn't really one-shot Kirge in Bankai, so for me he isn't that much stronger than he was before. Kenpachi handled 3 SRs easily (one mid-dif), Ichigo struggled with ONE. If he had aaaaalll that reiatsu that G13 put there, then he would one-shot everyone. If he had Yamaji's reiatsu, Juha would be easy opponent for him.
    Why on earth are you arguing a point I never made? When did I even imply that the sword given to him by Rukia carried all the rei of everyone and it made Ichigo godly? Where did I even imply thats what I believe made him stronger? Absolutely nowhere

    Quote Quote:
    You're seriously annoying. Your attitude is just childish.
    So it's "just childish" of me to point out that what you said had no correlation to the point at hand? Sure. If you find me annoying for pointing out such things, there's nothing I can do about it, as I'll continue to do so if you continue to make arbitrary points and try to use them as evidence of something that they don't substantiate

    Quote Quote:
    You didn't even read what that comment related to and you go with "This doesn't concern Shinji". He said Ichigo now is one-shoting SRs now. So I said, that he didn't one-shot Kirge, so not really.
    Quick question. Did or didn't Ichigo 1-shot Shaz? Another question: Was this before or after he fought Kirrge? Last question: Did anything happen between the Kirrge fight and him attacking Shaz that maybe could've had an effect on Ichigos power in the latest form of him we've seen in combat?

    I'm just wondering
    Quote Quote:
    Does it make sense to you? Should I make some short explanation after every sentence, so you won't try so hard to say it's "baseless" or "it has no connection to Shinji". Or is it too hard for you to understand? Or are you writing just to piss me off? Well, try harder.
    Well now I'm worried. You've already taken the discussion beyond the topic and made several attempts at insulting me personally, or attempts to make it seem as if you're faux-apathetic about everything. If you feel I may be a bit too blunt in my assessments of your argument, let me know. Or if you'd rather just continue to make comments like these while taking small jabs at me, that's fine too
    Quote Quote:
    So counter that, kid. Let's see how much "base" you can get from manga so far. Something that would relate Ichigo and Shinji NOW. A>B>C=D is the only thing we can do now. It's the only base we can use. If you want to keep up this arrogant attitude then prove me wrong there. If you can't, don't write. In discussions on this forum the only thing you can do is assume. It strongly depends on your point of view and interpretation.
    Counter what? You can't just state something without substantiating it then ask me to prove you wrong about it, that's shifting the burden of proof. How about giving reason to believe your statement is true first and then asking me to counter it?

    If your "reasons" were what you stated earlier using the KT fight then I already did counter it, as your basis and argument was flawed on the grounds of employing the Half Truths Fallacy (you didn't mention that Ichigo was exhausted, that Grimmjow was substantially injured before Shinji showed up, that Grimmjow had 1 arm, etc), among other things

    Quote Quote:
    If it's baseless for you, prove me wrong, show your "baseful" explanation, or just sit quietly.
    I sure hope you're joking with this, and that you know how the burden of proof works. Otherwise this would qualify as an incredibly ignorant yet ironically arrogant (Could it be double irony seeing as this is what you're accusing me of being?) statement by you

    Quote Quote:
    Disagreeing with me to boost your ego is just annoying. You won't piss me off, just irritate me. If that's what you want, you're welcome. Keep it up!
    Since you're doing this again, I'll just copy/paste my prior response:

    Spoiler show



    Quote Quote:
    Trying to prove it that way is much less fruitless, than you trying to counter it. Prove, that Ichigo now is enough to deal with Masked Shinji without any effort. You can't, because you don't know Shinji's limits in mask. He was NEVER outrunned, he was never beaten. You trying to prove it would be as fruitless to me, as my explanation to you.
    That's cool, because I never claimed Ichigo would beat Shinji without any effort, now did I? I'm just pointing out that you didn't prove otherwise.

    Quote Quote:
    I showed some panels and tried to use some logic to prove it. You just go saying "It's not enough" "That assumption is baseless IMO" "You can't think like that because I think otherwise" (really childish attitude if you ask me).
    I see what you did there. Added the bolded and then said it was childish, as if it was something I said anyway. Very commendable

    Quote Quote:
    Instead of trying so hard to attack me, attack all my points with panels. You think I didn't know, that Grimmjow was injured and tired back then?
    I haven't attacked you at all, I've attacked your arguments. I don't need panels to tell you that you didn't prove what you sought to, what on Earth gave you that impression? I provided panels where it was necessary, however

    And as for the bolded, whether you did or didn't isn't relevant because you didn't factor it into your argument, as it very obviously does have an effect on your conclusion. Infact, even after I reminded you of these facts you still attempted to write them off. That's very telling

    Quote Quote:
    About proving Masked Shinji vs base Grimmjow. And how can I do it without making assumptions from panels we've seen? Did they fight in that state? Nope, so I have to work with what I have.
    Which is perfectly fine. Proof doesn't require concrete evidence, your burden of proof is fulfilled if you give enough valid reason to believe something is true. I asked you to prove that to make a point, that there's a difference between Shinji doing what he did to 1-armed, injured Grimmjow and being able to do the same to a fully restored Grimmjow, with or without the Hueco Mundo powerup. The very fact you realize this and didn't immediately show me panels of Shinji downing Grimmjow in FKT as proof should make the flaw in your earlier argument clear, and if it doesn't....

    Well, Idk what to tell you

    Quote Quote:
    If it's not enough for you to base my point on, OK, it's your opinion. IMO it's enough. You say "panels you've shown are not enough to say [something]". Those are THE ONLY panels, that show some correlation between Shinji and Grimmjow. If I didn't base my opinion on it, I'd have to make up tons of assumptions and use A>B>C logic (I still do it, though). So I have 2 options

    1. Work with what I have, that you consider "baseless"
    2. Or work without base, which is from definiton BASELESS.

    So it's either baseless for some or completely baseless, thus your whole post and saying how baseless it is is just stupid for me, as you yourself have no base to say it's baseless. So I can say, that you saying my reasoning is baseless is baseless, as I consider your base not enough. The only thing you did was saying my base wasn't reliable. So you basically did nothing. All bark, no bite so far. Again, work harder.
    The thing is some of what you said was baseless, and some of it was Non-sequiter which in essence isn't much different from being baseless.

    I'm sorry to tell you but you simply can't say that Shinji overpowering Grimmow in FKT makes him Bankai Ichigo's (Pre-skip) equal, that is a non-sequiter. There are far too many additional factors and possibilities there for that to be a valid conclusion, or in this case, the onlyconclusion, as you never stated it as simply a possibility or opinion, you stated it as a proven fact (Hence you just said you proved it above)

    Whether you realize that or not isn't my problem, but to continue to assert it as if it's true and I'll just continue to tell you that it's wrong, and that your reasoning is flawed
    Last edited by Buzz Killington; July 15, 2013 at 10:09 PM.

  19. Like 1 Member(s) likes this post
Thread Closed
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts