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I have to agree with everyone and vote with Shinji here. Ichigo is more of a instinctive fighter which will completely ruin him against Shinji's shikai. His ability will wreck someone like Ichigo who has more of a straight forward fighting style.
im just say it... although shinji's shikai is powerful it does have its weaknesses. as aizan said " a battle between captain lv fighters is a battle of retsues(how ever you spell that)" ichigo can probably cancel shinji's shikai with his power alone see as he got a boost from all captains and vice-captains when he got his powers back.
BTW. Was it Aizen who was attacked back then? He made it look like it was him, but then who do we see? Hinamori. He could have swapped earlier and made it look like Suzumebachi is countered. In fact, Hinamori is smaller and she never made a hit. To not make them suspicious he could have said "I nullified your ability!", but we don't know if this is true. Well, it makes sense, but we still have to take it with a grain of salt IMO.
Last edited by Duniak; July 15, 2013 at 09:35 AM.
If sending your reiatsu all around you would cancel Shinji's ability it would be too easy. You have to remember, that we're talking about huge difference in power there. Ability-based Zanpakutos would be USELESS if they could be countered by sending your reiatsu. Is Ichigo that much stronger than Masked Shinji? I don't think so.
Also, Ichigo didn't get a "boost" by getting captains' reiatsu. Ichigo was a container, that had space for reiatsu, but it was empty because Ichigo lost his powers. They just filled it. It's not like he has 20x times reiatsu of a captain now. He has reiatsu that he had space for. He is not as strong as in his FGT form, but he is certainly above Ichigo that fought Gin, due to his training in Dangai.
Ichigo with his current level of strength wins hands down.
I don't really see how anyone besides Yama, Aizen or Juha Bach can win against Ichigo in one on ne among those who we've managed to see fighting.
Ichigo is just that strong. At the same time Shinji isn't a tank and will go down in one shot from Ichigo. Ichigo's speed is considerably above anyone in the Tournament. Remember how Kirinji dumped Soi Fong in speed? Ichigo even without his Bankai managed to at least match Kirinji's speed and managed to really suprise him.
At the same time Shinji doesn't have any serious attacking move that can take Ichigo down. Of course Ichigo might have some problems if Shinji releases his Shikai, but even base Shikai Ichigo (since we consider him as he was before his Zan was rebuild) would be strong enough and fast enough to take down Shinji before he uses his Shikai.
P.S. Remember. Tousen's Bankai ability is even more hax than Shinji's, but it didn't help him against Ken-chan. It won't help Shinji against Ichigo as well. The difference in fire and tanking power is too big.
With mask he can trash unreleased Grimmjow without effort. Something that Ichigo in Bankai AND Mask couldn't achieve. So I'm pretty sure, that Masked Shinji is almost equal to current Bankai Ichigo. After that fight we've never seen him fight seriously. He didn't even use his mask against Aizen.
Oh, is it more hax? Nah. Kenpachi, who fights instinctively all the time is the best match for it. In fight with Shinji, he'd die. And remember, that Tousen didn't have a mask and enhanced speed. Kenpachi could avoid being hit in vital points. As soon as he felt hit he dodged on REFLEX (something that WON'T work on Shinji). So no, Tousen's Bankai isn't that hax. Also, remember, this is Shinji's SHIKAI.Quote:
Last edited by Duniak; July 15, 2013 at 01:32 PM.
Last edited by Duniak; July 15, 2013 at 05:09 PM.
acknowledges it. We even see at a later date that simply donning his mask for a few moments causes rapid exhaustion, and his mask didn't reach his limit during that time either
So at best you have Masked Shinji overpowering a 1-armed Grimmjow with a cero, who was mere moments from being finished off by Masked Ichigo. That in no way proves that Masked Shinji is on a fresh Bankai Ichigo's level (It does prove he's stronger than exhausted Bankai Ichigo however), and much less a Masked Bankai Ichigo, as there's no correlation between Masked Ichigo's performances and Shinji's. Just because Ichigo could overpower that version of Grimmjow and Shinji a beaten down version of that Grimmjow does not make imply equality
Then there's also the fact that Ichigo's power wasn't static pre-skip, not even pre-dangai. He increasingly became more powerful. As for the "without effort" comment, Shinji himself disagrees
This is completely baseless. A short skirmish with Grimmjow pre-skip in no way proves what Shinji can take from pre-royal realm Ichigo.Quote:
This has no correlation to Shinji, nor anythingQuote:
Won't even go over the rest. Just going to say that your argument for Shinji's physical capabilities is incredibly weak, and full of holes. Whether you think he can win with his shikai's ability is one thing, but attempting to measure his power against Ichigo's based on that one fight with Grimmjow in Karakura Town is fruitless
For example, if I were to ask you to prove to me that Masked Shinji (No Shikai) could defeat full powered Grimmjow as he was during the last fight with Ichigo, even if Grimmjow was in base, you'd be completely unable to do that using just the fight in KT as support
Last edited by Buzz Killington; July 15, 2013 at 06:50 PM.
In the same panel you showed Grimmjow says, that without that mask he can trash Ichigo without any effort. And he showed it before. So of course I can use Shinji's performance as proof to prove my point, that Masked Shinji is psychically stronger than Bankai Ichigo. Even in HM fight, Ichigo didn't really trash Grimmjow. The fact is, Ichigo had to use mask because he and Inoue would get KILLED with Gran Rey Cero.
The difference in power there is so evident, that I could just ignore fatigue and jump to conclusion, that Masked Shinji is indeed stronger than Bankai Ichigo, fresh or not. And looking for corelation between their speeds is useless. It's like saying "We don't know if Ichigo's Getsuga Tenshou is as strong as his VL form Cero because we have no corelation". And we will never get. They won't have a race for us to show us who is faster. We base our knowledge on their feats. We assume, we look for evidence. That's what this forum is all about. Saying everything is baseless is plain stupid, as NOONE can prove, that Masked Shinji really is faster or slower than Bankai Ichigo. But I can safely assume, that if Masked Shinji is slightly faster than Bankai Ichigo, and Ichigo's mask is a HUGE boost to both speed and strength, then Masked Shinji can't compete in terms of speed. And that's the only thing I can do. They're not enemies, they never really fought in their current state. I can say, that unmasked Shinji was trashing Ichigo in Shikai. I can say, that Hollowfied Ichigo was stronger than Hiyori. I can say,Quote:
Where? Saying he won't be going easy on him doesn't make his win any less effortless. Or does it? Don't read too much into it. It's not like he really needed to try to shoot that Cero. We have different definitions of "effort" I guess. I didn't say he didn't even try. I'm saying, that it wasn't hard for him. It was easy. Not much effort. For you, effortlessly means without using your attacks or one-shoting? Well, he dodged few of his attacks without mask, launches at him, overpowers him, shoots Cero. Easy-peasy. Do you see soooo much effort in it? Or you like to change definitions of some words to suit your point? The whole point of your post is not to discuss it. It is to disagree with me. Ego-boost? I don't really care, but it's funny.Quote:
It's just an example. Shinji didn't really show much so far, so we have to work with little information we got. I didn't even try to use that as argument, that he can take Ichigo. I used it only to prove, that his psychical abilities are making him able toQuote:
1. Activate Sakanade without being one-shoted.
2. Deal with Ichigo's speed in Bankai if Sakanade wasn't for some reason activated yet, then activate it.
Activating Sakanade is game over for Ichigo.
Yeah, so counter that. Prove me wrong. The whole purpose of creating soul-sword by Urahara and putting LITTLE, TINY portion of reiatsu in that sword was to make Ichigo REGAIN his powers. It didn't make him stronger all of a sudden. It was meant to activate powers, that he lost and were deep in his soul. It just filled "container" for reiatsu, that Ichigo had twice as big as captains. It wasn't his power. It activated his power. If all that reiatsu was suddenly his thenQuote:
1. No need for training Kenpachi and RG. Just put everything you have in that sword and make Ichigo ultimate killing machine, Yamaji included.
2. Reiatsu amplification technique was used only in mod-souls and in RG's food. It was banished in SS.
Thus, this reiatsu COULDN'T become Ichigo's reiatsu. It couldn't expand his reiatsu capacity. Thus, amount of reiatsu he has is the same as he had before. Also, he didn't really one-shot Kirge in Bankai, so for me he isn't that much stronger than he was before. Kenpachi handled 3 SRs easily (one mid-dif), Ichigo struggled with ONE. If he had aaaaalll that reiatsu that G13 put there, then he would one-shot everyone. If he had Yamaji's reiatsu, Juha would be easy opponent for him.
You're seriously annoying. Your attitude is just childish. You don't care about that discussion. You lost interest long time ago. The only thing you want to do is to disagree with me. You didn't even read what that comment related to and you go with "This doesn't concern Shinji". He said Ichigo now is one-shoting SRs now. So I said, that he didn't one-shot Kirge, so not really. This discussion is about Shinji AND Ichigo. And now I didn't write about Shinji, but Ichigo and SRs. Does it make sense to you? Should I make some short explanation after every sentence, so you won't try so hard to say it's "baseless" or "it has no connection to Shinji". Or is it too hard for you to understand? Or are you writing just to piss me off? Well, try harder.Quote:
So counter that, kid. Let's see how much "base" you can get from manga so far. Something that would relate Ichigo and Shinji NOW. A>B>C=D is the only thing we can do now. It's the only base we can use. If you want to keep up this arrogant attitude then prove me wrong there. If you can't, don't write. In discussions on this forum the only thing you can do is assume. It strongly depends on your point of view and interpretation. If it's baseless for you, prove me wrong, show your "baseful" explanation, or just sit quietly. Disagreeing with me to boost your ego is just annoying. You won't piss me off, just irritate me. If that's what you want, you're welcome. Keep it up!Quote:
Trying to prove it that way is much less fruitless, than you trying to counter it. Prove, that Ichigo now is enough to deal with Masked Shinji without any effort. You can't, because you don't know Shinji's limits in mask. He was NEVER outrunned, he was never beaten. You trying to prove it would be as fruitless to me, as my explanation to you. I showed some panels and tried to use some logic to prove it. You just go saying "It's not enough" "That assumption is baseless IMO" "You can't think like that because I think otherwise" (really childish attitude if you ask me). Instead of trying so hard to attack me, attack all my points with panels. You think I didn't know, that Grimmjow was injured and tired back then?Quote:
About proving Masked Shinji vs base Grimmjow. And how can I do it without making assumptions from panels we've seen? Did they fight in that state? Nope, so I have to work with what I have. If it's not enough for you to base my point on, OK, it's your opinion. IMO it's enough. You say "panels you've shown are not enough to say [something]". Those are THE ONLY panels, that show some correlation between Shinji and Grimmjow. If I didn't base my opinion on it, I'd have to make up tons of assumptions and use A>B>C logic (I still do it, though). So I have 2 options
1. Work with what I have, that you consider "baseless"
2. Or work without base, which is from definiton BASELESS.
So it's either baseless for some or completely baseless, thus your whole post and saying how baseless it is is just stupid for me, as you yourself have no base to say it's baseless. So I can say, that you saying my reasoning is baseless is baseless, as I consider your base not enough. The only thing you did was saying my base wasn't reliable. So you basically did nothing. All bark, no bite so far. Again, work harder.
So drawing anything from Ichigo prior to mastering his mask is already a flawed endeavor, because he isn't fighting to his full potential (Yet you feel this is enough of a sample size to state definitively that Shinji is stronger than Bankai Ichigo pre-skip. Clearly a hasty generalisation fallacy, but whatever). Additionally, this is an entirely different fight than the one we were discussing, and Grimmjow had both his arms
Grimmjow did NOT say that. Let's stop making things up. K?Quote:
No, no you cannot. You didn't support this position at all. At best you can say that masked Shinji is stronger than Pre-Huecu Mundo exhausted Bankai Ichigo, who's afraid to use his powers. Other than that? NoQuote:
Which does nothing for your argument, because by the time this fight occured Ichigo is both stronger and able to keep his hollow at bay. Not to mention Grimmjow is more powerful in Hueco Mundo and has both his arms as well, so his fighting ability increased. What Ichigo could do to Grimmjow there means absolutely nothing for Shinji, because you don't know if Shinji could do it too. You can only bring you already flawed assumptionsQuote:
Failing to see how Ichigo using his mask to stop Base Grimmjows GRC means anything in relation to Masked ShinjiQuote:
Nice try but no you can't just ignore fatigue. Not sure why you even thought that would be acceptable?Quote:
Except you do, because R1 Ulquiorra tanked his Getsuga completely, even Released Grimmjow did. Meanwhile, R2 Ulquiorra, an even stronger character, was damn near killed by the cero. So yes, you do need a correlation. Attempting to cite other cases to justify that you don't doesn't change thatQuote:
Not to mention, I didn't even mention speed there
No, it's stupid attempting to refute someone else's claims if you can't prove your own, which you tried to do with lyght. Calling something baseless that's exactly that is not stupid, it's just labeling something for what it is. If you state something and cannot support that, then it's baselessQuote:
To state that he won't go easy on him means that he isn't going to give minimum effort, that's all there is to it. To ignore this and then still attempt to say he went easy on him is factually incorrectQuote:
And I find it funny that you're attempting to change what you meant now in an attempt to save face, because apparently you forgot Shinji himself said he wouldn't go easy on Grimmjow. Everything you typed in the above quote is clearly an attempt to deflect, such as accusing me of changing definitions and such. How about just saving all that extra and putting forth a valid argument?Quote:
Except, you didn't prove that. All you proved was that Shinji can apparently perform better than an exhausted version of Bankai Ichigo, and down an opponent who was about to be finished off by Ichigo in a matter of moments (and Grimmjow still got right back up, ready to keep going)Quote:
What? I'm not going to do your job for you. You need to prove that he didn't get stronger, you made a positive claim, and I'm in denial of it.Quote:
Are these supposed to be the only ways possible that Ichigo could've gotten stronger? I mean, it can't be that his being able to combine his Fullbring power with his own Shinigami power had no effect on his power could it (It's not like Ginjou outright stated that combining his Fullbring power with his shinigami power gives him power transcending Shinigami? Or that it's possible the fullbring made him stronger?)? I mean that's certainly possible, and the fact that that's possible means you just gave me a false dichotomy, and your reasons for Ichigo gaining power don't have to be the only onesQuote:
It's not like before ever regaining his Shinigami powers Tsukishima noted that Ichigo's power in his Fullbring form was already nearing his heights as a Shinigami? It's not like Ichigo's practice swing was confused by Ginjou to be a Getsuga stronger than what he was capable of before, is it?
Why on earth are you arguing a point I never made? When did I even imply that the sword given to him by Rukia carried all the rei of everyone and it made Ichigo godly? Where did I even imply thats what I believe made him stronger? Absolutely nowhereQuote:
So it's "just childish" of me to point out that what you said had no correlation to the point at hand? Sure. If you find me annoying for pointing out such things, there's nothing I can do about it, as I'll continue to do so if you continue to make arbitrary points and try to use them as evidence of something that they don't substantiateQuote:
Quick question. Did or didn't Ichigo 1-shot Shaz? Another question: Was this before or after he fought Kirrge? Last question: Did anything happen between the Kirrge fight and him attacking Shaz that maybe could've had an effect on Ichigos power in the latest form of him we've seen in combat?Quote:
I'm just wondering
Well now I'm worried. You've already taken the discussion beyond the topic and made several attempts at insulting me personally, or attempts to make it seem as if you're faux-apathetic about everything. If you feel I may be a bit too blunt in my assessments of your argument, let me know. Or if you'd rather just continue to make comments like these while taking small jabs at me, that's fine tooQuote:
Counter what? You can't just state something without substantiating it then ask me to prove you wrong about it, that's shifting the burden of proof. How about giving reason to believe your statement is true first and then asking me to counter it?Quote:
If your "reasons" were what you stated earlier using the KT fight then I already did counter it, as your basis and argument was flawed on the grounds of employing the Half Truths Fallacy (you didn't mention that Ichigo was exhausted, that Grimmjow was substantially injured before Shinji showed up, that Grimmjow had 1 arm, etc), among other things
I sure hope you're joking with this, and that you know how the burden of proof works. Otherwise this would qualify as an incredibly ignorant yet ironically arrogant (Could it be double irony seeing as this is what you're accusing me of being?) statement by youQuote:
Since you're doing this again, I'll just copy/paste my prior response:Quote:
That's cool, because I never claimed Ichigo would beat Shinji without any effort, now did I? I'm just pointing out that you didn't prove otherwise.Quote:
I see what you did there. Added the bolded and then said it was childish, as if it was something I said anyway. Very commendableQuote:
I haven't attacked you at all, I've attacked your arguments. I don't need panels to tell you that you didn't prove what you sought to, what on Earth gave you that impression? I provided panels where it was necessary, howeverQuote:
And as for the bolded, whether you did or didn't isn't relevant because you didn't factor it into your argument, as it very obviously does have an effect on your conclusion. Infact, even after I reminded you of these facts you still attempted to write them off. That's very telling
Which is perfectly fine. Proof doesn't require concrete evidence, your burden of proof is fulfilled if you give enough valid reason to believe something is true. I asked you to prove that to make a point, that there's a difference between Shinji doing what he did to 1-armed, injured Grimmjow and being able to do the same to a fully restored Grimmjow, with or without the Hueco Mundo powerup. The very fact you realize this and didn't immediately show me panels of Shinji downing Grimmjow in FKT as proof should make the flaw in your earlier argument clear, and if it doesn't....Quote:
Well, Idk what to tell you
The thing is some of what you said was baseless, and some of it was Non-sequiter which in essence isn't much different from being baseless.Quote:
I'm sorry to tell you but you simply can't say that Shinji overpowering Grimmow in FKT makes him Bankai Ichigo's (Pre-skip) equal, that is a non-sequiter. There are far too many additional factors and possibilities there for that to be a valid conclusion, or in this case, the onlyconclusion, as you never stated it as simply a possibility or opinion, you stated it as a proven fact (Hence you just said you proved it above)
Whether you realize that or not isn't my problem, but to continue to assert it as if it's true and I'll just continue to tell you that it's wrong, and that your reasoning is flawed
Last edited by Buzz Killington; July 15, 2013 at 10:09 PM.