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Thread: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Shinji vs Ichigo

  1. #31
    Banned 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Shinji vs Ichigo

    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Killington View Post
    And this same Ichigo moments before was so afraid of using his power that he had trouble killing a fodder hollow. This same Ichigo later gets trashed by Hiyori because he was afraid to use his power, again. All for fear of his hollow taking over
    1. He already regained his resolve.
    2. The only thing he was afraid of was firing more than 2-3 Getsugas because then he'd lose it. But Grimmjow said, that he could as well shoot 1000 of them and it wouldn't make a difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Killington View Post
    So drawing anything from Ichigo prior to mastering his mask is already a flawed endeavor, because he isn't fighting to his full potential (Yet you feel this is enough of a sample size to state definitively that Shinji is stronger than Bankai Ichigo pre-skip. Clearly a hasty generalisation fallacy, but whatever). Additionally, this is an entirely different fight than the one we were discussing, and Grimmjow had both his arms
    Yup, he is not using his mask, his not fighting to the fullest, he is afraid of firing Black Getsugas, that Grimmjow considers nothing big. Other than that, he is giving it all.



    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Killington View Post
    Grimmjow did NOT say that. Let's stop making things up. K?
    Yup, he said "With your power, you just can't win". It's pretty much equal to "I'd trash you now that your mask is off". Or is "without any effort" bothering you? Well, you must really have a sad life if you are like that in real life. It's not good for making friends, ya know?



    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Killington View Post
    No, no you cannot. You didn't support this position at all. At best you can say that masked Shinji is stronger than Pre-Huecu Mundo exhausted Bankai Ichigo, who's afraid to use his powers. Other than that? No
    Hey, basic logic flaw you got there. He is either exhausted or afraid to use his powers. Those were 2 different fights. In first, he was afraid to use his powers, then he was exhausted after using mask.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Killington View Post
    Failing to see how Ichigo using his mask to stop Base Grimmjows GRC means anything in relation to Masked Shinji
    You're failing all the time. Looking at how you want to boost your ego, you're failing in real life too. Cocky attitude and pointlessly trying to argue, just for arguing's sake. I feel sorry for you.

    It's not just blocking GRC. He was getting pushed back, then his GT lost to Grimmjow's cero, then he got pushed back again, got cut, and only THEN he blocked GRC. Yup, you're definition of a "fail".


    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Killington View Post
    Nice try but no you can't just ignore fatigue. Not sure why you even thought that would be acceptable?
    Because it doesn't matter if he's fatigued or not if difference is big enough. I'm not saying how much stronger is he, so I can't ignore the fact if I assume, that even without being fatigued Ichigo is weaker. Do you understand it now? Or should I really start writing explanation to every single sentence?




    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Killington View Post
    Except you do, because R1 Ulquiorra tanked his Getsuga completely, even Released Grimmjow did. Meanwhile, R2 Ulquiorra, an even stronger character, was damn near killed by the cero. So yes, you do need a correlation. Attempting to cite other cases to justify that you don't doesn't change that
    Let's start with Grimmjow being weaker than Ulquiorra. How do you know that? In their clash it was Ulqiorra who was caught up in Caja Negacion and strength of their Cero was equal. Or is it that number really that important to you? After seeing Yammy and his "0" you should stop caring about those numbers. Ichigo didn't really have time to get even fully healed, he rushed to Ulqiorra. He was fatigued in his fight with Ulquiorra, wasn't he? You like that word, don't you?


    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Killington View Post
    No, it's stupid attempting to refute someone else's claims if you can't prove your own, which you tried to do with lyght. Calling something baseless that's exactly that is not stupid, it's just labeling something for what it is. If you state something and cannot support that, then it's baseless
    Oh, but I showed you my base. But you didn't show me anything except panel I was talking about and two really useless pages, where one just says "If you use much power you're tired!" and second is you failing to read. Doesn't really count.


    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Killington View Post
    To state that he won't go easy on him means that he isn't going to give minimum effort, that's all there is to it. To ignore this and then still attempt to say he went easy on him is factually incorrect
    Ok, so Yamaji uses his Ryujin Jakka to one-shot Driscoll. He wasn't going easy on him, right? And did he put much effort? One slash, that's all. It was effortless kill, where he didn't go easy on him. Shinji has a friend that got trashed next to him and Arrancar that is not a pushover, but someone who can't even touch him, but destroys the city trying. He uses Cero, which doesn't really seem to take much effort and almost kills him. Not going easy on somebody DOESN'T mean putting much effort.

    Oh, I let myself delete the latter part, as it was basically trash, and you simply asked me to do what I did few lines higher, so it's really meaningless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Killington View Post
    Except, you didn't prove that. All you proved was that Shinji can apparently perform better than an exhausted version of Bankai Ichigo, and down an opponent who was about to be finished off by Ichigo in a matter of moments (and Grimmjow still got right back up, ready to keep going)
    http://www.mangareader.net/94-690-2/...apter-236.html

    Oh, so you're saying that Ichigo, that is on his knees, with his hands being nailed with Grimmjow's sword, who, by the way, is trying to blow his friend's head off, will defeat Grimmjow IN A MATTER OF SECONDS! But suddenly Shinji pops out and saves Grimmjow from being humiliated! How noble of him. Too bad, that when he came Ichigo is STILL nailed down.

    http://www.mangareader.net/94-690-5/...apter-236.html

    But we all know, that Ichigo would trash him in few seconds.


    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Killington View Post
    What? I'm not going to do your job for you. You need to prove that he didn't get stronger, you made a positive claim, and I'm in denial of it.
    Yeah, whatever kiddo. Not like I actually believed you'd do it. You don't have balls to do it. Being in denial doesn't mean you can just say "It's not enough" "That is wrong" "I think it's wrong". Again with your stupid and childish attitude...

    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Killington View Post
    Are these supposed to be the only ways possible that Ichigo could've gotten stronger? I mean, it can't be that his being able to combine his Fullbring power with his own Shinigami power had no effect on his power could it (It's not like Ginjou outright stated that combining his Fullbring power with his shinigami power gives him power transcending Shinigami? Or that it's possible the fullbring made him stronger?)? I mean that's certainly possible, and the fact that that's possible means you just gave me a false dichotomy, and your reasons for Ichigo gaining power don't have to be the only ones
    Oh, you mean that fullbring, that was completely stolen from him? That fullbring, that originated from his own Hollow powers? That fullbring, that didn't bring anything new to Ichigo? Yeah, because Ginjou can compare Ichigo pre-timeskip and Ichigo post-timeskip. He compares it to his fullbring power. And by the way, where do you think was Ichigo's Hollow back then? Oh, right. It became his fullbring, as fullbring uses HOLLOW powers. That's why we didn't exactly see him wearing a mask in fight with Kirge, Kirge's Jail, Ginjou or Juha. So yeah, fullbring strengthened him just as much as his Hollow did while wearing mask.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Killington View Post
    It's not like before ever regaining his Shinigami powers Tsukishima noted that Ichigo's power in his Fullbring form was already nearing his heights as a Shinigami? It's not like Ichigo's practice swing was confused by Ginjou to be a Getsuga stronger than what he was capable of before, is it?
    It's not like Tsukisihima ever saw Ichigo in action back in FKKT. It's not like Tsukishima didn't know shit about Ichigo. It's not like Ginjou confused Fullbring Getsuga with Ken'natsu, is it?


    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Killington View Post
    Why on earth are you arguing a point I never made? When did I even imply that the sword given to him by Rukia carried all the rei of everyone and it made Ichigo godly? Where did I even imply thats what I believe made him stronger? Absolutely nowhere
    Am I even arguing a point? I simply showed you, that Ichigo post-timeskip doesn't have a reason to be stronger. And that "captain giving their reiatsu" topic was discussed trilions of times out there. So no fullbring, no additional reiatsu from captains. How did he get so considerably stronger, that we can't even compare those two forms...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Killington View Post
    Quick question. Did or didn't Ichigo 1-shot Shaz? Another question: Was this before or after he fought Kirrge? Last question: Did anything happen between the Kirrge fight and him attacking Shaz that maybe could've had an effect on Ichigos power in the latest form of him we've seen in combat?

    I'm just wondering
    Quick question. Did you even read the rules before you started writing that crap? No? So go, read 'em. And then, you'll tell me why using Shaz as an argument is wrong, and why using Quilge/Kirge is right. K?


    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Killington View Post
    Counter what? You can't just state something without substantiating it then ask me to prove you wrong about it, that's shifting the burden of proof. How about giving reason to believe your statement is true first and then asking me to counter it?
    I already gave you my base. Now you prove me, that my base (not the conclusion that I came up with basing on it) is wrong, showing your proof. Is it that hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Killington View Post
    If your "reasons" were what you stated earlier using the KT fight then I already did counter it, as your basis and argument was flawed on the grounds of employing the Half Truths Fallacy (you didn't mention that Ichigo was exhausted, that Grimmjow was substantially injured before Shinji showed up, that Grimmjow had 1 arm, etc), among other things
    Yeah, because I decided, that those factors DON'T change the fact, that Shinji is stronger. Ok, little explanation for you, as you're half-brain, just like my truth.

    From 0 to 100, I rank Shinji a 100 (hypothetically). I rank Grimmjow back then 50. I take factors such as one-hand and exhaustion to give him +40. Thus, Grimmjow being a 90 and Shinji being a 100. So those factos didn't change the point, that Shinji IS stronger than Grimmjow. I didn't say how much stronger he is. Maybe much stronger, maybe slightly. Next time I'll draw you a beautiful picture for you to understand, ok?

    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Killington View Post
    That's cool, because I never claimed Ichigo would beat Shinji without any effort, now did I? I'm just pointing out that you didn't prove otherwise.
    That's cool, but look what is this thread all about, and concentrate on topic instead of me. Also, read some other posts. I think it was Jorge who said, that Ichigo in Shikai would one-shot Shinji. I disagreed with it and now we have... well, this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Killington View Post
    I see what you did there. Added the bolded and then said it was childish, as if it was something I said anyway. Very commendable
    Oh, thank you. You're doing it all the time, saying that how I interpreted Grimmjow's and Shinji's fight is wrong, and how you saw it, saying that fatigue and not having one arm is reaaaaaally important, is right.


    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Killington View Post
    I haven't attacked you at all, I've attacked your arguments. I don't need panels to tell you that you didn't prove what you sought to, what on Earth gave you that impression? I provided panels where it was necessary, however
    Maybe the fact, that you don't know the rules of a tournament, you don't know what this topic is all about, and you don't know how my discussion started. That gave me an impression, that you just saw a post with which you disagreed and concentrated on disagreeing with me, instead of providing some useful panels. Oh, you "provided panels" in your opinion? You proved to me, that Ichigo was exhausted back then. Very useful. Not like I ever doubted that, did I? You showed the panel that I talked about. Mrr, exciting! Then you gave next panel, in which you think "going easy" is the same as "putting much effort", which is stupid and WRONG. You could have just randomly show me some pages in manga and they'd be much more useful I guess...


    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Killington View Post
    Which is perfectly fine. Proof doesn't require concrete evidence, your burden of proof is fulfilled if you give enough valid reason to believe something is true.
    And "valid reason" for me is invalid for you, so it all comes down to interpretation, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Killington View Post
    The thing is some of what you said was baseless, and some of it was Non-sequiter which in essence isn't much different from being baseless.
    Actually, they're not baseless. They may be wrong, you might not disagree, but I showed you on what I based my opinion. So saying they're baseless is just wrong. You don't think that base is valid. Ok. That's why I wrote "consider baseless".

    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Killington View Post
    I'm sorry to tell you but you simply can't say that Shinji overpowering Grimmow in FKT makes him Bankai Ichigo's (Pre-skip) equal, that is a non-sequiter. There are far too many additional factors and possibilities there for that to be a valid conclusion, or in this case, the onlyconclusion, as you never stated it as simply a possibility or opinion, you stated it as a proven fact
    Damn, you're seriously trying to bring up non-sequiters, proven facts, additional factors to discuss a fictional fight in a fictional book with fictional plot? Go make a degree from philosophy or something... But I gotta tell you, it's boring, I couldn't handle more than one semester.

    PS.

    You might have noticed, that I deleted some of your posts and didn't counter them. Those were the parts where I'd have to write the same thing, and a particular point is being multiplied throughout your reply. I also removed those parts about your attitude. I still consider it childish and writing about that 3-4 times won't change anything. I wanted to write something longer about your attitude there and end discussion about that, but I forgot what you actually wrote, and haven't sleep in like 30 hours, so I'll just skip it. If you want to discuss your attitude you're welcome, on PM. I'd prefer if we kept that discussion more on the right tracks. That is, post-timeskip Ichigo vs Shinji's fight. This discussion started to be more and more about Grimmjow. I'll consecutively delete some points to make this discussion shorter. I'm sure you don't really like discussions in this tone, that long. Well, maybe you do like it. I'll refrain myself from writing why.

  2. #32
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Shinji vs Ichigo

    Well, for one thing everyone should remember that Ichigo's Reiatsu is enormous (and he wasn't even close to his full power, since before he fought Kirge and more importantly tried to get out of Jail). It should be even stronger than Yama's. When Ichigo came to SS during the War everyone noticed this fact. Both his allies and foes. All the foes were shocked at his Reiatsu, since it was enormous. Everyone should remember that Ichigo took down 2 Sternenritters during the War. Only Kenpachi and Yama managed to achieve comparable things. The differense seems to be in overall power of Sternenritters, since Kenpachi's seemed to be weaker, since he said that he one-shotted some of them, but it's not the topic here. It just shows that Ichigo achieved more during the War than Shinji.

    About Shinji's hax Shikai. I think even Shinji doesn't know how hax it is. If it was so hax, then why he didn't win his fight in this War? If noone besides Aizen and presumable Urahara (according to Shinji's fans) can counter it...

    P.S. After his Bankai was broken Ichigo couldn't be in "constant Bankai", since he has such enormous speed only due to his sword, since it compresses his Reiatsu and enables his body to get faster, punch and slash stronger, so without his Zan, his robe only showsw if he has or not full Reiatsu, so he still used his base speed. And that's quite an achievment. Since Kirinji seems to surpass Soi Fong's and Yoruichi's speed by far.

  3. #33
    Banned 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Shinji vs Ichigo

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    About Shinji's hax Shikai. I think even Shinji doesn't know how hax it is. If it was so hax, then why he didn't win his fight in this War? If noone besides Aizen and presumable Urahara (according to Shinji's fans) can counter it...

    P.S. After his Bankai was broken Ichigo couldn't be in "constant Bankai", since he has such enormous speed only due to his sword, since it compresses his Reiatsu and enables his body to get faster, punch and slash stronger, so without his Zan, his robe only showsw if he has or not full Reiatsu, so he still used his base speed. And that's quite an achievment. Since Kirinji seems to surpass Soi Fong's and Yoruichi's speed by far.
    Shinji's shikai. Okay, so now suddenly you're saying he DIDN'T win his fight against SR? We didn't know if he evn fought. Based on his bruises we can assume he did. And if he did, he won and was looking for more of them, considered them "fun". I don't know how you came to conclusion, that he didn't win his fight.

    If you meant him not fighting at all... he was looking for them, not finding them doesn't make his ability less hax.

    Was it ever stated, that he has to hold his sword to get a boost in his power? He still has his robe (shukasho?) in Bankai, that represents his reiatsu. Tensa Zangetsu's blade doesn't really seem like his whole bankai. That whole form is his bankai. And he still IS in that form. I mean, was back then, now he can't be as he got new Zanpakuto. But then he couldn't be in Shikai too, as he gets new shikai... but his shikai is constant and he is currently trapped in bankai... Damn, too much informations.
    Last edited by Duniak; July 16, 2013 at 01:33 AM.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Shinji vs Ichigo

    It is obvious. The only ones who won against Sternenritters were shown: Ichigo, Yama and Kenpachi. Others never managed to win. Otherwise we would see this.

    I know he was fighting, but he was never shown winning against anyone with his base abilities or presumably hax Shikai.

    No it was explisitly explained how his Bankai works. It condenses his Reiatsu in his sword, thus enabling him to get an access to his enormous speed and physical power. Without his sword his Bankai robe doesn't grant anything at all. It just represents if he has or not his full Reiatsu.

  5. #35
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Buzz Killington's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Shinji vs Ichigo

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    1. He already regained his resolve.
    2. The only thing he was afraid of was firing more than 2-3 Getsugas because then he'd lose it. But Grimmjow said, that he could as well shoot 1000 of them and it wouldn't make a difference.
    1.No he didn't. The entire reason Rukia told him to stay out of the fight originally and to run from Grimmjow (before Grimmjow impaled her) was because she knew he didn't
    2.The problem wasn't yet addressed, as he hadn't trained with the vizards. Only after he does so is he not afraid of going all out, because otherwise doing so made it easier for the Hollow to overtake him. Hichigo outright stated this during their fight in Ichigo's inner world. It's not limited to simply using Getsuga

    Quote Quote:
    Yup, he is not using his mask, his not fighting to the fullest, he is afraid of firing Black Getsugas, that Grimmjow considers nothing big. Other than that, he is giving it all.
    What Grimmjow considers of them isn't relevant, we outright see two of them damn near kill him, leaving him bleeding profusely and to the point he was going to be finished off


    Quote Quote:
    Yup, he said "With your power, you just can't win". It's pretty much equal to "I'd trash you now that your mask is off". Or is "without any effort" bothering you? Well, you must really have a sad life if you are like that in real life. It's not good for making friends, ya know?
    Lol@ the bolded. The hell did that come from? Stop trying to project yourself (and your life) onto me, alright? Stay focused, lol

    Anyway, once again, you're discounting the fact that the Ichigo he was referring to just exhausted his power.


    Quote Quote:
    Hey, basic logic flaw you got there. He is either exhausted or afraid to use his powers. Those were 2 different fights. In first, he was afraid to use his powers, then he was exhausted after using mask.
    How on earth is that a "logic flaw?"? Are you implying that both can't occur at the same time?

    Quote Quote:
    You're failing all the time. Looking at how you want to boost your ego, you're failing in real life too. Cocky attitude and pointlessly trying to argue, just for arguing's sake. I feel sorry for you.
    *Sigh* Funny you say nonsense like this yet in your closing statement you say:

    Spoiler show


    How about saving all this whining for a PM, then? (Which, btw, I won't discuss in PM, as it's pointless)
    Quote Quote:
    It's not just blocking GRC. He was getting pushed back, then his GT lost to Grimmjow's cero, then he got pushed back again, got cut, and only THEN he blocked GRC. Yup, you're definition of a "fail".
    So, Hueco Mundo Ichigo being pushed back by a full-powered, 2-armed Grimmjow who is stronger in Hueco Mundo.... means what exactly for Shinji, who overpowered someone without everything in italics? Not a thing right? Yet you want to talk about failing, as if you didn't just fail to prove your point here


    Quote Quote:
    Because it doesn't matter if he's fatigued or not if difference is big enough. I'm not saying how much stronger is he, so I can't ignore the fact if I assume, that even without being fatigued Ichigo is weaker. Do you understand it now? Or should I really start writing explanation to every single sentence?
    You probably should! Because at it is now, your argument here isn't even valid. Would Ichigo be in the same position if he weren't fatigued? You don't know. Citing how Ichigo performed in the 1st fight is wrong because he was afraid of using his powers, and the 3rd fight there were many different circumstances (2 armed Grimm, HM boost, etc), so in short you've no way of knowing whats necessary unless you arbitrarily assume that Ichigo would still lose regardless. Which you did, and I'm pretty sure I called baseless, fittingly


    Quote Quote:
    Let's start with Grimmjow being weaker than Ulquiorra. How do you know that? In their clash it was Ulqiorra who was caught up in Caja Negacion and strength of their Cero was equal.
    I know because of their number, as well as their feats and hype (Basically, everything)

    Also, the strength of their cero was not equal, hence why Grimmjows arm was completely scorched and Ulq was fine. Furthermore, him being able to sneak up on Ulq and trap him in caja negacion does not make him stronger nor equal.

    Quote Quote:
    Or is it that number really that important to you? After seeing Yammy and his "0" you should stop caring about those numbers.
    Uh, what? Lol. Again, I'm not sure if you understand this, but simply because you believe something doesn't make it fact, nor does it mean someone else should. I'm not sure why you mentioned Yammy at all. What was your point? I'll tell you now that at best you can give me your assumption on Yammy's strength, not anything concrete. Given that it's repeated multiple times that the Espada are ranked by strength, even in multiple databooks, I'll take the authors word over........Duniaks, lol


    Quote Quote:
    Ichigo didn't really have time to get even fully healed, he rushed to Ulqiorra. He was fatigued in his fight with Ulquiorra, wasn't he? You like that word, don't you?
    Sure he was, but we also know that Ichigo was stronger in his fight with Ulquiorra. Or let me guess, "Stop listening to Ulquiorra, you should know better" So while he wasn't full 100%, he wasnt exhausted and infact he'd even grown stronger

    Quote Quote:
    Oh, but I showed you my base. But you didn't show me anything except panel I was talking about and two really useless pages, where one just says "If you use much power you're tired!" and second is you failing to read. Doesn't really count.
    Your "base" isn't base at all, it's essentially just some random information that doesn't at all imply your conclusion. None of it follows

    Quote Quote:
    Ok, so Yamaji uses his Ryujin Jakka to one-shot Driscoll. He wasn't going easy on him, right? And did he put much effort? One slash, that's all. It was effortless kill, where he didn't go easy on him.
    Obviously he did put forth more than minimum effort if he wasn't going easy on him. What the? Do you even know what effort means? Clearly not

    Does Yama burn the flesh off of people with casual flames? Did he do so to Tres Bestias? No? Then he obviously is giving more effort on Driscoll than he did them, clearly meaning it's not effortless

    Quote Quote:
    Shinji has a friend that got trashed next to him and Arrancar that is not a pushover, but someone who can't even touch him, but destroys the city trying. He uses Cero, which doesn't really seem to take much effort and almost kills him. Not going easy on somebody DOESN'T mean putting much effort.
    I never said he put forth "much" effort, I said that he obviously put forth more than minimum effort. It was not effortless. See above for the definition of the word "effort"


    Quote Quote:
    http://www.mangareader.net/94-690-2/...apter-236.html

    Oh, so you're saying that Ichigo, that is on his knees, with his hands being nailed with Grimmjow's sword, who, by the way, is trying to blow his friend's head off, will defeat Grimmjow IN A MATTER OF SECONDS! But suddenly Shinji pops out and saves Grimmjow from being humiliated! How noble of him. Too bad, that when he came Ichigo is STILL nailed down.

    http://www.mangareader.net/94-690-5/...apter-236.html

    But we all know, that Ichigo would trash him in few seconds.
    This is a blatant strawman. There's no way you could've mistakenly twisted my argument to what you're saying it is. Grimmjow was moments away from being finished by Ichigo here, obviously not when he's nailed to the ground. Which makes no sense to even assume I meant but whatever helps you think you're making a point I guess?

    Oh, not to mention you completely ignored the point. Which is that Ichigo significantly damaged Grimmjow so much he was prepared to finish him. Just because Grimmjow turned the tables after Ichigo's mask broke doesn't mean his injuries suddenly vanished, so what exactly is so great about Shinji downing (for what, 2 seconds?) a already beaten down Grimmjow?


    Quote Quote:
    Yeah, whatever kiddo. Not like I actually believed you'd do it. You don't have balls to do it.
    The internet, lmao

    Quote Quote:
    Being in denial doesn't mean you can just say "It's not enough" "That is wrong" "I think it's wrong". Again with your stupid and childish attitude...
    It means I can tell you that what you're presenting is wrong if it doesn't prove your point, which it doesn't for reasons I've stated multiple times now. Do you know what it means to prove something? If you did, I'm sure you'd realize that my saying you failed to do that isn't stupid nor childish, though you'd say that anyway I'm sure

    Quote Quote:
    Oh, you mean that fullbring, that was completely stolen from him? That fullbring, that originated from his own Hollow powers? That fullbring, that didn't bring anything new to Ichigo?
    Yeah I mean that Fullbring that Ginjou outright says could've increased his base skills. Really why do I even bother...


    Quote Quote:
    Yeah, because Ginjou can compare Ichigo pre-timeskip and Ichigo post-timeskip
    It's not like he didn't know about him? Clearly knew about Ichigo losing his powers, Isshin, Aizen, etc.

    Quote Quote:
    And by the way, where do you think was Ichigo's Hollow back then? Oh, right. It became his fullbring, as fullbring uses HOLLOW powers.
    Uh, no? A fullbringer being born of Hollow power does not mean Ichigo's hollow became his fullbring. I'm pretty sure Ichigo's hollow wasnt its own being anymore after he and Zangetsu merged again during his training in Dangai

    Quote Quote:
    That's why we didn't exactly see him wearing a mask in fight with Kirge, Kirge's Jail, Ginjou or Juha.
    Right, must be the same reason why we didnt see him wearing a mask post-dangai. Right? Obviously the fact that this possibility exists means yours doesn't have to be the case

    Quote Quote:
    So yeah, fullbring strengthened him just as much as his Hollow did while wearing mask.
    Seeing as your premise for this conclusion was terribly flawed I see no reason to trust you here

    Quote Quote:
    It's not like Tsukisihima ever saw Ichigo in action back in FKKT. It's not like Tsukishima didn't know shit about Ichigo.
    Right because the guy that planned the whole setup for Ichigo along with Ginjou couldn't possibly have known anything about Ichigo prior to Ginjou meeting him, and that makes sense to you

    Quote Quote:
    It's not like Ginjou confused Fullbring Getsuga with Ken'natsu, is it?
    Which is irrelevant


    Quote Quote:
    Am I even arguing a point? I simply showed you, that Ichigo post-timeskip doesn't have a reason to be stronger.
    No, you rambled on and on about something I said nothing about and made a lot of presumptions in your rambling that you can't possibly prove

    Quote Quote:
    And that "captain giving their reiatsu" topic was discussed trilions of times out there. So no fullbring, no additional reiatsu from captains. How did he get so considerably stronger, that we can't even compare those two forms...?
    So what if it was discussed trillions of times? How is that relevant?

    I've already shown how it was stated that Ichigo's power would transcend what he had prior by combining it with fullbring, and even Ginjou states that the fullbring could've made him stronger. The existence of these possibilities means you can't state that he wasn't more powerful and pass it off as fact

    Quote Quote:
    Quick question. Did you even read the rules before you started writing that crap? No? So go, read 'em. And then, you'll tell me why using Shaz as an argument is wrong, and why using Quilge/Kirge is right. K?
    I'm aware of the rules, but this isn't about that. This is about lyght's statement, where he said "Ichigo was capable of 1-shotting SRs now", and how you attempted to refute that.


    Quote Quote:
    I already gave you my base. Now you prove me, that my base (not the conclusion that I came up with basing on it) is wrong, showing your proof. Is it that hard?
    Already did. Multiple times

    Quote Quote:
    Yeah, because I decided, that those factors DON'T change the fact, that Shinji is stronger. Ok, little explanation for you, as you're half-brain, just like my truth.
    Unfortunately you "deciding" the factors dont matter doesn't mean anything here. You need to prove they don't, which you'll be hard pressed to do

    Also, half-brain? Really? That wasn't even funny, lol (And the lol is me laughing at myself, btw.)

    Quote Quote:
    From 0 to 100, I rank Shinji a 100 (hypothetically). I rank Grimmjow back then 50. I take factors such as one-hand and exhaustion to give him +40. Thus, Grimmjow being a 90 and Shinji being a 100. So those factos didn't change the point, that Shinji IS stronger than Grimmjow. I didn't say how much stronger he is. Maybe much stronger, maybe slightly. Next time I'll draw you a beautiful picture for you to understand, ok?
    Wtf? Lol, are you serious? Surely this is a joke and this isn't what you actually consider your proof?

    Maybe a beautiful picture would be better, because that was frankly terrible from every standpoint. It relies entirely on what you decide each factor means, which is flawed from the jump. If all you can say definitively is that Shinji is stronger than a beaten down, 1-armed Grimmjow, then you aren't saying much of anything at all, as that doesn't even begin to prove that the same Shinji could defeat full restored Base Grimmjow


    Quote Quote:
    That's cool, but look what is this thread all about, and concentrate on topic instead of me. Also, read some other posts. I think it was Jorge who said, that Ichigo in Shikai would one-shot Shinji. I disagreed with it and now we have... well, this.
    Well you should've asked him to substantiate that, instead of claiming that he couldn't which therefore allows me to come and ask you to prove that assertion you just made

    Get how the Burden of Proof works now? I also found the bolded funny, given the numerous comments "about me" you've made so far, lol

    Quote Quote:
    Oh, thank you. You're doing it all the time, saying that how I interpreted Grimmjow's and Shinji's fight is wrong, and how you saw it, saying that fatigue and not having one arm is reaaaaaally important, is right.
    Actually these are two entirely different things, and no I didn't say that at all, but whatever. Not gonna repeat that again..


    Quote Quote:
    Maybe the fact, that you don't know the rules of a tournament, you don't know what this topic is all about, and you don't know how my discussion started.
    Wrong, just like all your other "facts"

    Quote Quote:
    That gave me an impression, that you just saw a post with which you disagreed and concentrated on disagreeing with me
    Even if I did, so what? Is my disagreeing with you wrong, or something?

    Quote Quote:
    instead of providing some useful panels. Oh, you "provided panels" in your opinion?
    Pretty sure this is a contradiction, but w/e man

    Quote Quote:
    You proved to me, that Ichigo was exhausted back then. Very useful. Not like I ever doubted that, did I? You showed the panel that I talked about. Mrr, exciting!
    Whether you doubted it or not is irrelevant, you didn't factor it into your equation and thought that it was okay to act as if it's not a factor.

    Quote Quote:
    Then you gave next panel, in which you think "going easy" is the same as "putting much effort", which is stupid and WRONG.
    You quoted "putting much effort", so is that something i actually said or..? Also, you apparently didn't even know what effort meant, so this lecture of yours isn't really working

    Quote Quote:
    You could have just randomly show me some pages in manga and they'd be much more useful I guess...
    Well then I'd be following your example, citing random things in the manga and making conclusions based on it (ie, Shinji is stronger). I'd rather not follow your example though, lol

    Quote Quote:
    And "valid reason" for me is invalid for you, so it all comes down to interpretation, right?
    Wrong. If it logically follows there'd be no problem with it, problem is yours doesn't, nor is yours even logically sound as you conveniently choose to ignore many factors that would otherwise influence your conclusion

    Quote Quote:
    Actually, they're not baseless. They may be wrong, you might not disagree, but I showed you on what I based my opinion. So saying they're baseless is just wrong. You don't think that base is valid. Ok. That's why I wrote "consider baseless"
    .

    As I said, non-sequiter then. Really doesn't matter which term you want to go with


    Quote Quote:
    Damn, you're seriously trying to bring up non-sequiters, proven facts, additional factors to discuss a fictional fight in a fictional book with fictional plot? Go make a degree from philosophy or something... But I gotta tell you, it's boring, I couldn't handle more than one semester.
    I hope you're not serious. Just to show you how ridiculous what you just said was, I'm gonna perform a demonstration doing what you're doing to show why it's wrong:

    Lisa is stronger than Byakuya. Lisa managed to fight Bankai Hollow Ichigo without shikai or mask for 10 minutes where Byakuya was nearly defeated fighting Bankai Hollow Ichigo for a few moments. It doesnt matter that the Hollow Ichigo Lisa fought was mindless because I dont consider it being mindless a factor. You may disagree with me but that doesn't make me wrong!

    Just terrible

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Shinji vs Ichigo

    And about Ichigo's Fullbring... It wasn't stolen. Rukia even commented on this. Ginjo only managed to steal the tip of Ichigo's power. When he got his Shinigami powers back it was obviously seen that his Fullbring was incorporated in it. His stripes are the sign that his Fullbring merged with his Shinigami powers thus giving him a boost in Reiatsu and physical capacities in base form.

    Ginjo only managed to steal a tip, a portion of Ichigo's power that included his Fullbring, Shinigami and Hollow powers with the later two beeing already merged with each other during Dangai training.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Shinji vs Ichigo

    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Killington View Post
    1.No he didn't. The entire reason Rukia told him to stay out of the fight originally and to run from Grimmjow (before Grimmjow impaled her) was because she knew he didn't
    2.The problem wasn't yet addressed, as he hadn't trained with the vizards. Only after he does so is he not afraid of going all out, because otherwise doing so made it easier for the Hollow to overtake him. Hichigo outright stated this during their fight in Ichigo's inner world. It's not limited to simply using Getsuga



    What Grimmjow considers of them isn't relevant, we outright see two of them damn near kill him, leaving him bleeding profusely and to the point he was going to be finished off




    Lol@ the bolded. The hell did that come from? Stop trying to project yourself (and your life) onto me, alright? Stay focused, lol

    Anyway, once again, you're discounting the fact that the Ichigo he was referring to just exhausted his power.




    How on earth is that a "logic flaw?"? Are you implying that both can't occur at the same time?



    *Sigh* Funny you say nonsense like this yet in your closing statement you say:



    How about saving all this whining for a PM, then? (Which, btw, I won't discuss in PM, as it's pointless)


    So, Hueco Mundo Ichigo being pushed back by a full-powered, 2-armed Grimmjow who is stronger in Hueco Mundo.... means what exactly for Shinji, who overpowered someone without everything in italics? Not a thing right? Yet you want to talk about failing, as if you didn't just fail to prove your point here




    You probably should! Because at it is now, your argument here isn't even valid. Would Ichigo be in the same position if he weren't fatigued? You don't know. Citing how Ichigo performed in the 1st fight is wrong because he was afraid of using his powers, and the 3rd fight there were many different circumstances (2 armed Grimm, HM boost, etc), so in short you've no way of knowing whats necessary unless you arbitrarily assume that Ichigo would still lose regardless. Which you did, and I'm pretty sure I called baseless, fittingly




    I know because of their number, as well as their feats and hype (Basically, everything)

    Also, the strength of their cero was not equal, hence why Grimmjows arm was completely scorched and Ulq was fine. Furthermore, him being able to sneak up on Ulq and trap him in caja negacion does not make him stronger nor equal.



    Uh, what? Lol. Again, I'm not sure if you understand this, but simply because you believe something doesn't make it fact, nor does it mean someone else should. I'm not sure why you mentioned Yammy at all. What was your point? I'll tell you now that at best you can give me your assumption on Yammy's strength, not anything concrete. Given that it's repeated multiple times that the Espada are ranked by strength, even in multiple databooks, I'll take the authors word over........Duniaks, lol




    Sure he was, but we also know that Ichigo was stronger in his fight with Ulquiorra. Or let me guess, "Stop listening to Ulquiorra, you should know better" So while he wasn't full 100%, he wasnt exhausted and infact he'd even grown stronger



    Your "base" isn't base at all, it's essentially just some random information that doesn't at all imply your conclusion. None of it follows



    Obviously he did put forth more than minimum effort if he wasn't going easy on him. What the? Do you even know what effort means? Clearly not

    Does Yama burn the flesh off of people with casual flames? Did he do so to Tres Bestias? No? Then he obviously is giving more effort on Driscoll than he did them, clearly meaning it's not effortless



    I never said he put forth "much" effort, I said that he obviously put forth more than minimum effort. It was not effortless. See above for the definition of the word "effort"




    This is a blatant strawman. There's no way you could've mistakenly twisted my argument to what you're saying it is. Grimmjow was moments away from being finished by Ichigo here, obviously not when he's nailed to the ground. Which makes no sense to even assume I meant but whatever helps you think you're making a point I guess?

    Oh, not to mention you completely ignored the point. Which is that Ichigo significantly damaged Grimmjow so much he was prepared to finish him. Just because Grimmjow turned the tables after Ichigo's mask broke doesn't mean his injuries suddenly vanished, so what exactly is so great about Shinji downing (for what, 2 seconds?) a already beaten down Grimmjow?




    The internet, lmao



    It means I can tell you that what you're presenting is wrong if it doesn't prove your point, which it doesn't for reasons I've stated multiple times now. Do you know what it means to prove something? If you did, I'm sure you'd realize that my saying you failed to do that isn't stupid nor childish, though you'd say that anyway I'm sure



    Yeah I mean that Fullbring that Ginjou outright says could've increased his base skills. Really why do I even bother...




    It's not like he didn't know about him? Clearly knew about Ichigo losing his powers, Isshin, Aizen, etc.



    Uh, no? A fullbringer being born of Hollow power does not mean Ichigo's hollow became his fullbring. I'm pretty sure Ichigo's hollow wasnt its own being anymore after he and Zangetsu merged again during his training in Dangai



    Right, must be the same reason why we didnt see him wearing a mask post-dangai. Right? Obviously the fact that this possibility exists means yours doesn't have to be the case



    Seeing as your premise for this conclusion was terribly flawed I see no reason to trust you here



    Right because the guy that planned the whole setup for Ichigo along with Ginjou couldn't possibly have known anything about Ichigo prior to Ginjou meeting him, and that makes sense to you



    Which is irrelevant




    No, you rambled on and on about something I said nothing about and made a lot of presumptions in your rambling that you can't possibly prove



    So what if it was discussed trillions of times? How is that relevant?

    I've already shown how it was stated that Ichigo's power would transcend what he had prior by combining it with fullbring, and even Ginjou states that the fullbring could've made him stronger. The existence of these possibilities means you can't state that he wasn't more powerful and pass it off as fact



    I'm aware of the rules, but this isn't about that. This is about lyght's statement, where he said "Ichigo was capable of 1-shotting SRs now", and how you attempted to refute that.




    Already did. Multiple times



    Unfortunately you "deciding" the factors dont matter doesn't mean anything here. You need to prove they don't, which you'll be hard pressed to do

    Also, half-brain? Really? That wasn't even funny, lol (And the lol is me laughing at myself, btw.)



    Wtf? Lol, are you serious? Surely this is a joke and this isn't what you actually consider your proof?

    Maybe a beautiful picture would be better, because that was frankly terrible from every standpoint. It relies entirely on what you decide each factor means, which is flawed from the jump. If all you can say definitively is that Shinji is stronger than a beaten down, 1-armed Grimmjow, then you aren't saying much of anything at all, as that doesn't even begin to prove that the same Shinji could defeat full restored Base Grimmjow




    Well you should've asked him to substantiate that, instead of claiming that he couldn't which therefore allows me to come and ask you to prove that assertion you just made

    Get how the Burden of Proof works now? I also found the bolded funny, given the numerous comments "about me" you've made so far, lol



    Actually these are two entirely different things, and no I didn't say that at all, but whatever. Not gonna repeat that again..




    Wrong, just like all your other "facts"



    Even if I did, so what? Is my disagreeing with you wrong, or something?



    Pretty sure this is a contradiction, but w/e man



    Whether you doubted it or not is irrelevant, you didn't factor it into your equation and thought that it was okay to act as if it's not a factor.



    You quoted "putting much effort", so is that something i actually said or..? Also, you apparently didn't even know what effort meant, so this lecture of yours isn't really working



    Well then I'd be following your example, citing random things in the manga and making conclusions based on it (ie, Shinji is stronger). I'd rather not follow your example though, lol



    Wrong. If it logically follows there'd be no problem with it, problem is yours doesn't, nor is yours even logically sound as you conveniently choose to ignore many factors that would otherwise influence your conclusion

    .

    As I said, non-sequiter then. Really doesn't matter which term you want to go with




    I hope you're not serious. Just to show you how ridiculous what you just said was, I'm gonna perform a demonstration doing what you're doing to show why it's wrong:

    Lisa is stronger than Byakuya. Lisa managed to fight Bankai Hollow Ichigo without shikai or mask for 10 minutes where Byakuya was nearly defeated fighting Bankai Hollow Ichigo for a few moments. It doesnt matter that the Hollow Ichigo Lisa fought was mindless because I dont consider it being mindless a factor. You may disagree with me but that doesn't make me wrong!

    Just terrible
    You tried

    I had stayed out of this debates because the tournament is a silly popularity context. But this fight goes to Ichigo without a doubt. He....(what's that word)....... He 'oneshots' Shinji.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Shinji vs Ichigo

    Has Ichigo ever one-shotted anyone of note, much less someone on Shinji's level? There isn't even an attempt to put a coherent argument forward for Ichigo. The answer for Shinji's ability seems to be reiatsu, but what indication is there that Ichigo's reiatsu is anywhere near a level at which he could just blow away Sakasama no Sekai.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Shinji vs Ichigo

    Well, Ichigo took down one Sternenritter in the current Arc with just one-shot, when he wasn't even close to his full power.
    Also, it's not that he would negate Shinji's ability. He would just take him down with superior attacking power of either Shikai or Bankai and his superior speed.
    At the same time Shinji doesn't have any serious defensive techs or offensive techs. The only argument for Shinji is his Shikai that is presumed to be hax, while actually not. And at the same time even Tousen's Bankai was countered and it was considerably more hax and I do think that Ichigo's current speed of reaction is way better than Kenpachi's at the time when Ken-chan fought Tousen, so Ichigo may need to endure several swings from Shinji and then catch his blade or slice in the same direction he was cut from and that's all. Shinji went down after one slice from Aizen and I don't see any differense between current Shikai or Bankai Ichigo and baze Aizen in terms of damage frrom a swing. I would even say that Ichigo's Bankai should have a stronger swing than base Aizen's.

    And seriously I even doubt that Ichigo would wait for Shinji to use his Shikai. He will just speedblitz him and that's all.

    P.S. The same Shinji never won against anyone of note and never showed anything close to Ichigo's level by simple fits. He never even shown to be as strong as Shunsui, so to talk about his Level...

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Shinji vs Ichigo

    I didn't realise that a random sternritter, stupid enough to introduce himself rather than pick up a weapon, is someone of note. The entire premise of Shinji's ability is that his opponent is incapable of reacting effectively, Ichigo wouldn't be able to land a hit, regardless of what speed he utilises. You argue that he's going to use the method that Kenpachi used against Tousen, that wouldn't work. Shinji says as much, simply countering damage from the inverted direction would be insufficient because the mind wouldn't be able to process the many reversals in direction and sense, we even saw what would happen when Aizen took a swing at it. Even if one is accustomed to fighting in that particular way, their body will not adapt, and will continue to fight by reflex, which causes it to continuously succumb to the power's effect. Aizen defeated Shinji using an even more hax ability, a stronger illusion. I don't doubt that Ichigo has enough force behind his swing to bring down Shinji, I doubt he is going to be able to touch him. And Ichigo hasn't shown speed on anywhere near a level that would allow him to speedblitz Shinji without him being able to respond. This is the same Shinji who is faster than the other visored captains, and able to avoid a sneak attack from Tousen during his assault on Aizen.

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Shinji vs Ichigo

    Please try to show more respect towards other people's opinions no matter how illogical they might be to you.

    **

    Regarding the discussion, I'll side with Shinji. "Ichigo is strong, so he oneshots Shinji" isn't how I see this. I'm still yet to be convinced about how he will fight him once Shinji goes Shikai. Randomly firing away GT won't help him get Shinji, while his great speed is deemed useless with reversed perception. While Ichigo is most likely faster than Shinji, I can't see a huge enough in his favor so that he can counteract to his own wrong reactions.
    Well, anyone is free to think he can do that, anyway.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Shinji vs Ichigo

    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Killington View Post
    tl;dr
    Seriously, it is too long. And I suppose everything there was pretty much you saying the same thing again. But even though I didn't read it I still can see that fragment about Lisa while replying. I didn't say I don't consider it a factor. You just don't want to understand what I mean. Or you DO understand, but doesn't want to show it. It's like me saying Ichigo had bandages during SS arc so he'd kill everyone there if not for his wounds from before. He would even kill Aizen if not for those bandages. Now, why doesn't anyone take it into consideration? Because they think it wouldn't make a difference, because the difference in power was clear, so factor doesn't change original statement. And that's exactly what I'm doing with Shinji and Grimmjow. There's a handicap, that I ignore in my point because I think even fresh Grimmjow wouldn't win against Masked Shinji given their fight. Seriously, I don't know what you replied to my beautiful (and ironic) explanation, but I will really make beautiful picture for you soon.

    I don't have time for going through the rest. But I suppose it's all the same, saying how my base is wrong, cocky attitude and saying about burden of proof and evident facts in fictional art. If you want to discuss it more, don't hesitate to PM me. But you probably won't do it. You won't be able to show off then, people won't see you, you won't be able to boost your ego, so you won't bother

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Shinji vs Ichigo

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Please try to show more respect towards other people's opinions no matter how illogical they might be to you.

    **

    Regarding the discussion, I'll side with Shinji. "Ichigo is strong, so he oneshots Shinji" isn't how I see this. I'm still yet to be convinced about how he will fight him once Shinji goes Shikai. Randomly firing away GT won't help him get Shinji, while his great speed is deemed useless with reversed perception. While Ichigo is most likely faster than Shinji, I can't see a huge enough in his favor so that he can counteract to his own wrong reactions.
    Well, anyone is free to think he can do that, anyway.
    This. We know Ichigo is really strong, we're not denying that. However you can't deny the fact that Shinji's Shikai, while being more effective the more the opponent relies on zanjutsu, is perfect to beating Ichigo. Ichigo is a highly powerful, quick fighter who uses speed and power to overwhelm the opponent. He's also very experienced. As Shinji states, the more experienced you are the more you'd struggle with his Shikai.

    The only way I see Ichigo winning is if he manages to one-shot Shinji, however Shinji is a captain of teh Gotei 13, has his hollow mask, and was the leader of the Vaizards too.

    It's a bad matchup for Ichigo, so Shinji wins.

    Epic Brofist!

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Shinji vs Ichigo

    Impossibility

    Again, it's Shinji's opinion that you can't counter his Shikai. He doesn't fooll your ability to sense Reiatsu. And anyone more or less strong can feel from where your opponent is attacking. If it was someone with the speed of Yoruichi or Soi Fong at least and with some strong moves that can oneshot Ichigo or at least take him down in several shots, then I would have agreed that it would be difficult for Ichigo, but Shinji never showed any strong attack. That's the main point. He can't bring Ichigo down easily, thus when Ichigo understands that his eyesight is fooling him him would just use his sensing ability and take Shinji down.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Shinji vs Ichigo

    Ichigo wins this. Guy has appearantly far more superior stats like overpowering a sternritter in brute strength who absorbed allon. Allon manhandeld kirge who was overpowering current shikai ichigo. Current shikai ichigo left his badge at uruhara store so his reiatsu wasn't restricted anymore then add to the fact that his kentatsu alone in shikai is comparable to GT. The kentatsu of komamura a captain doesn't even come close . Or the fact that he. Ichigo is also a lot faster then shinji going by feats. He blitzed bankai ginjou>>>>current shikai ichigo>>>>pre ts shikai ichigo<=pre ts byakuya. Quilge had trouble just reacting to him even though he blitzed ichigo beforehand and has the added power of ayon on his side. Not to mention the improved reiatsu control current ichigo has his road was completely straight when walking in the garganta. So basicly shinji is figthing a guy with over 2 times captain level reiatsu and massive boost to his power due to fullbring. Shikai ichigo managed to palm 6 heilig pfeils barehanded coming from a sternritter who's arrows>uryu ishida>base yammy's hierro. Ichigo's stats>>>>>>shinji by a long shot

    As for his shikai. given ichigo's durability he's likely not going down anytime soon. Also given FKT ichigo's incredibly quick analythical skills of gin's bankai. I doubt ichigo will be left clueless for a extended period of time. Also he can always fend shinji off with his omnidirectional Getsuga Thensou. Ichigo shouldn't take more then a couple of slashes also . Even if he might get caught of guard ichigo might have the reactions to dodge shinji's attack speed given released grimmjow can do it twice. He dodged ichigo's strike concealed through the smoke from a small distance. And reacted to sneak attack getsuga thensou by blocking it with on arm.

    Unless released grimmjow has far better reactions then current ichigo can probably react to shinji's attack speed once gotten used by sakanade. Nevermind the large GT's ichigo has at his disposal to wrap himself in it.

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