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View Poll Results: what do you think of the verdict?

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  • i agree with the verdict

    4 33.33%
  • i disagree with the verdict

    5 41.67%
  • either i am split or i dont feel i know what really happened

    0 0%
  • i dont care

    3 25.00%
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Thread: What is your opinion of the Trayvon Martin case and verdict?

  1. #16
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: What is your opinion of the Trayvon Martin case and verdict?

    Not necessarily because Zimmerman could have avoided this whole thing had he not possibly profiled racially or followed orders. It's pretty much relevant as to why he followed the kid despite being told not to, especially with how this is being made a race issue.

  2. #17
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Josef K.'s Avatar
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    Re: What is your opinion of the Trayvon Martin case and verdict?

    No one could ever prove, given the facts and the evidence in the trial, who started the fight, therefore that casts a shadow of doubt, reasonable, maybe it's not who done what now, maybe it's a bit too late for that. Given the trial as it is, it could never be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Such is the justice system, the defense argued more over that than of the case, and that got Zimmerman off the hook.

  3. #18
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: What is your opinion of the Trayvon Martin case and verdict?

    Zimmerman may be off the hook in the courtroom, but he's definitely on the hook in real life. I'm shocked he's not dead yet, given the reaction of people, especially the stupid protesters destroying life.

  4. #19
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Josef K.'s Avatar
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    Re: What is your opinion of the Trayvon Martin case and verdict?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Zimmerman may be off the hook in the courtroom, but he's definitely on the hook in real life. I'm shocked he's not dead yet, given the reaction of people, especially the stupid protesters destroying life.
    He has tons of security guards now ...

    And killing him will only further the hate, just leave the case at rest, and let the family cope with the loss.

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  6. #20
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: What is your opinion of the Trayvon Martin case and verdict?

    ... security guards aren't always enough to stop determined people.

    I know. I don't like the way people have reacted to the verdict.

  7. #21
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity weixiaobao's Avatar
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    Re: What is your opinion of the Trayvon Martin case and verdict?


  8. #22
    MH's Most High Quality Poster 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member earthforge's Avatar
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    Re: What is your opinion of the Trayvon Martin case and verdict?

    I find it amusing that Zimmerman, who got into the news as an armed vigilante, is now afraid of... armed vigilantes.

    I think the SYG laws should be repealed because it is a justification for killing someone in front of no witnesses. That was the case here. All witness testimony was in doubt because it was dark. The only person who could've brought evidence of equal weight to Zimmerman was Martin. But Martin is dead. So Zimmerman got an automatic win as far as SYG is concerned.

    What if Martin had survived? Then SYG should've applied to both of them, because Martin stood his ground when Zimmerman approached him (which is a threat), and Zimmerman stood his ground when Martin attacked him.

    I do think Martin threw the first punch, but I think it was after substantial threat from Zimmerman (being followed counts). As Zimmerman realized he wouldn't win, he decided to shoot Martin.

    The crux is that taking a life should not be taken lightly. In California, at least Mehserle was convicted of manslaughter because bad training was no excuse for someone being deprived of life.
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  9. #23
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member zelllogan's Avatar
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    Re: What is your opinion of the Trayvon Martin case and verdict?

    This case is annoying. There are talking about it everywhere & way too much. Of course, zimmerman was found not guilty. How can so many people be talking about "wanting justice" when they want to judge on what they think and not on the verified facts.

    If I was in the jury, I would have found him not guilty too. It's possible that he is just an aggressive racist but you can't prove it. End of story.

    The most shocking part about the case: Obama going out of line. He clearly gave the impression to side with T.Martin & his family & against Zimmerman. It's a professional fault.

    I just don't see how you can disagree with the verdict. This is nuts. Are there so many potentially dangerous jury members who would act on feelings instead of facts among you ? 4 who voted "disagree" for the moment, that's 4 too much
    Last edited by zelllogan; July 20, 2013 at 07:38 PM.

  10. #24
    MH's Most High Quality Poster 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member earthforge's Avatar
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    Re: What is your opinion of the Trayvon Martin case and verdict?

    Quote Originally Posted by zelllogan View Post
    I just don't see how you can disagree with the verdict. This is nuts. Are there so many potentially dangerous jury members who would act on feelings instead of facts among you ? 4 who voted "disagree" for the moment, that's 4 too much
    Facts =/= law, and justice =/= outcome of a jury trial.

    The law has little to do with facts. It is the rhetorical binding that links facts.

    Legally, Zimmerman had every right to shoot Trayvon if he "felt" threatened. That's the Stand Your Ground law in action.

    Factually, we won't ever know what happened that night because it was dark, so witness testimony is not reliable. The only person who had the other side of the story is dead.

    Justly, no man should get away with killing another, especially when one is just walking home from the store.
    Avatar © Chelsea Gordon, author of Not Quite Normal.

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  12. #25
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Josef K.'s Avatar
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    Re: What is your opinion of the Trayvon Martin case and verdict?

    The judge read everything to the jury before they went ahead to debate the verdict. Meaning they knew how the law worked in a jury trial.

    But I am amazed at how anyone can just say THERE IS NO DOUBT that Zimmerman acted out of malice.

    Here:



    This causes doubt, that means they can not convict him without any reasonable doubt.

    Plus this:





    Conflicting testimony, thus more cause for doubt.

    It's not that George Zimmerman did not kill Trayvon, given the evidence and the circumstances you can never prove that in court, WITHOUT a doubt.
    Last edited by Josef K.; July 21, 2013 at 01:21 AM.

  13. #26
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member zelllogan's Avatar
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    Re: What is your opinion of the Trayvon Martin case and verdict?

    Quote Originally Posted by earthforge View Post
    Facts =/= law, and justice =/= outcome of a jury trial.

    The law has little to do with facts. It is the rhetorical binding that links facts.

    Legally, Zimmerman had every right to shoot Trayvon if he "felt" threatened. That's the Stand Your Ground law in action.

    Factually, we won't ever know what happened that night because it was dark, so witness testimony is not reliable. The only person who had the other side of the story is dead.

    Justly, no man should get away with killing another, especially when one is just walking home from the store.
    The only verified facts are showing martin as the physical agressor (and given the pictures, not a small agression), not as an innocent man just being there and who was shoot in cold blood. That is why zimmerman is free. The only verified 'crime' by zimmerman is to confront martin when it was advised not to do so by the cops. It s not enough to send him to jail.

    When i m talking about facts , i m always talking about verified facts.
    Last edited by zelllogan; July 21, 2013 at 04:05 AM.

  14. #27
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: What is your opinion of the Trayvon Martin case and verdict?

    Quote Originally Posted by zelllogan View Post
    This case is annoying. There are talking about it everywhere & way too much. Of course, zimmerman was found not guilty. How can so many people be talking about "wanting justice" when they want to judge on what they think and not on the verified facts.

    If I was in the jury, I would have found him not guilty too. It's possible that he is just an aggressive racist but you can't prove it. End of story.

    The most shocking part about the case: Obama going out of line. He clearly gave the impression to side with T.Martin & his family & against Zimmerman. It's a professional fault.

    I just don't see how you can disagree with the verdict. This is nuts. Are there so many potentially dangerous jury members who would act on feelings instead of facts among you ? 4 who voted "disagree" for the moment, that's 4 too much
    I was a bit surprised by obama's take on the case too. It seems like the sort of thing which could put zimmerman himself in danger and increase tensions so it seems a tad irresponsible at large.

    As far as the verdict goes, I don't see how it could reasonably be anything else. If what zimmerman was being accused of could not be proven beyond reasonable doubt then by no means could the verdict be anything else. The fact that zimmerman walked out of this one is prove that the system did precisely what it was supposed to do under the circumstances. No one can prove there was racial profiling done here. From what I have been able to read about the case even when talking to the cops zimmerman never once made a race claim... And unfortunately the issue of whether you agree with the law which allowed zimmerman to shot martin is a separate issue, a separate discussion altogether. And whether zimmerman should have been accused of something else (I think a few people mentioned involuntary manslaughter) is also a separate issue. In a system that works the claims made against zimmerman should have never held any ground under the circumstances.

  15. #28
    MH's Most High Quality Poster 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member earthforge's Avatar
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    Re: What is your opinion of the Trayvon Martin case and verdict?

    President Obama is entitled to his opinion. He isn't purely the puppet of the people. He is a human being. In fact, I would argue that his fear of offending parts of his electorate have made him easy to push around. I appreciated that he actually spoke from his heart on this issue.

    There is something to be said for speaking your mind despite knowing that others disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by zelllogan View Post
    The only verified facts are showing martin as the physical agressor (and given the pictures, not a small agression),
    Those aren't relevant to the justice of the case. If someone goads you into a fight and you start winning, does that make you the instigator?

    Quote Quote:
    The only verified 'crime' by zimmerman is to confront martin when it was advised not to do so by the cops. It s not enough to send him to jail.
    Following someone without their consent is stalking, and yes it is a threat. Under the SYG law, Trayvon had every reason to attack Zimmerman because he was in fear of his life.
    Avatar © Chelsea Gordon, author of Not Quite Normal.

  16. #29
    Horosho 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Kaiten's Avatar
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    Re: What is your opinion of the Trayvon Martin case and verdict?

    Zimmerman could not have been charged with involuntary manslaughter. Involuntary manslaughter requires negligence, and means that there was no intent to kill. A fatality resulting from a car accident caused by a drunk driver is involuntary manslaughter. Use of a weapon establishes clear intent to kill. Zimmerman was charged with voluntary manslaughter, along with second degree murder, and found not guilty on both accounts. Second degree murder requires that the prosecution establish malice. Because the prosecution could not establish racism in the eyes of the jury, malicious intent could not be established, and guilt could not be established. Voluntary manslaughter is "the unjustifiable, inexcusable, and intentional killing of a human being without deliberation, premeditation, and malice." Zimmerman was not convicted on charges of voluntary manslaughter largely because of procedural mistakes. On the night of the shooting the police released him without pressing charges, based on the stand your ground law. Given the circumstances of the case, this was a very unusual, and highly unprofessional move. Stand Your Ground does not justify the use of deadly force in all circumstances, it merely allows "reasonable" force to be used without any requirement to flee or evade deadly action. Because of the circumstances (an unarmed assailant, police on the scene within two minutes), it would have been difficult for the responding officers to determine at the scene whether Zimmerman used reasonable, or excessive force. Under these circumstances the responding officers normally would have processed Zimmerman, and allowed the court to determine whether his actions properly constituted self defense. Because Zimmerman was not initially charged, based on the Stand Your Ground Act, it became more difficult (if not impossible) for the prosecution to establish this as an unlawful death. Had normal procedure been followed, they most likely would have. Based on available evidence, claiming the use of deadly force was "reasonable" would have been very difficult. The police had already been called before Martin assaulted Zimmerman, and Martin was unarmed.

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  18. #30
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: What is your opinion of the Trayvon Martin case and verdict?

    Quote Originally Posted by earthforge View Post
    President Obama is entitled to his opinion. He isn't purely the puppet of the people. He is a human being. In fact, I would argue that his fear of offending parts of his electorate have made him easy to push around. I appreciated that he actually spoke from his heart on this issue.

    There is something to be said for speaking your mind despite knowing that others disagree.



    Those aren't relevant to the justice of the case. If someone goads you into a fight and you start winning, does that make you the instigator?



    Following someone without their consent is stalking, and yes it is a threat. Under the SYG law, Trayvon had every reason to attack Zimmerman because he was in fear of his life.
    I disagree. Its true obama is a human being but at the same time he is the president of the united states. His status as human being exists alongside his status as an important and influential public figure to whom people all over the world listen to. As a public figure his every move and word is judged and weight differently from those of actual normal people. There is no scenario in which Obama can give his opinion as a human being without it also being his opinion as president of the united states. I would argue there is something inappropriate about a president just giving his opinion on the result of the case. My impression is that there is enough tension with the verdict as it is. Were obama's words ultimately prudent? Its not that he does not have a right to say whatever comes to his mind, he does, its a matter of whether his words were appropriate and prudent. Considering the tension about the case that seems to be out there, I would argue the words of the president of the united states were neither appropriate or prudent in spite of his right to say them.

    I dunno about zimmerman goading martin into a fight. Its true he did stalk the kid, which is a crime, but overall it does not seem like martin approaching zimmerman to fight him was an appropriate or reasonable response. Or does the law actually permit the attacking of stalkers? Maybe it does but my first guess on the matter would be that approaching a stalker to beat the everloving crap out of him would qualify as assault. It wouldn't have been martin's job to impart justice on zimmerman for following him either....

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