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View Poll Results: what do you think of the verdict?

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  • i agree with the verdict

    4 33.33%
  • i disagree with the verdict

    5 41.67%
  • either i am split or i dont feel i know what really happened

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  • i dont care

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Thread: What is your opinion of the Trayvon Martin case and verdict?

  1. #31
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: What is your opinion of the Trayvon Martin case and verdict?

    To be honest, no matter how true the statements were, Obama shouldn't have said what he did. It adds to the whole race tension thing.

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    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity danzouismadara's Avatar
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    Re: What is your opinion of the Trayvon Martin case and verdict?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    To be honest, no matter how true the statements were, Obama shouldn't have said what he did. It adds to the whole race tension thing.
    THANK YOU! He is adding fuel to the fire. He should stay out of it, and attend to more important matters. About the case, I think it was two donkeys, and one donkey had a gun lol. I think the verdict was correct. Anyways, they should be reminded of the OJ case, and just let it go, since I honestly don't think it was a racial conflict. I think the media is responsible for creating this mess.


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    Re: What is your opinion of the Trayvon Martin case and verdict?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Zimmerman did murder the kid, but he apparently did it in self defense. Based on what I've read, Trayvon may not have been as innocent as people claim. Still though, Zimmerman didn't have to kill the kid.
    supposedly that "kid" was 6'2 and was pounding zimmermans head against the concrete

    the liberal left wing communists would be satisfied with this news article

    "middle aged man beaten to death or lives rest of life in coma as young black male crushes his skull against the concrete"

    than

    "middle aged man defends himself as he is being beaten to death with gun"

    because a gun is demonized whereas beating someones skull against the concrete is perfectly socially acceptable because the mass media has not brainwashed these poor souls to beleive such a thing is wrong

  4. #34
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: What is your opinion of the Trayvon Martin case and verdict?

    Well, overall it would seem people favoring martin don't really believe martin did go that far. It was in the report however that was only zimmerman's account. Of course there is no valid reason to question zimmerman's account in the end, no evidence suggests his version is not the truth given the lack of the other party. The issue here is the inherent assumption that a hate crime was committed even though such a thing can never be reasonably proven with the evidence the case had. Of course, if martin did try to smash zimmerman's head to the ground then his response would have been legitimate self defense, there is no way around that. Far less than that can kill someone after all. That is considering zimmerman never did pose a threat to martin and never would have been at any risk if martin had not approach him. Overall I would argue both were wrong here and the result was the worst case scenario (except for both dying).

    -There is no scenario in which zimmerman was right in following martin. The guy played batman and the result was horrible. He put himself in danger, he put others in danger and a kid died. Worst case scenario his suspicions were correct and martin turned out to be a dangerous criminal (of course he wasn't but as far as zimmerman was concerned it was a possibility when he followed him) and the thing turned into a shootout or the guy pulled a knife before he could pull his gun....

    -There is no scenario in which martin was right in approaching zimmerman let alone attack him. As far as martin should have been concerned the guy following him could have been a criminal or something.... Instead he played batman and went ahead to enact justice via beating the everloving crap out of him. If he wasn't physically threatened I don't really see a reason for him to respond physically at least.

    Zimmerman should have left the "suspicious" individual to the police. Martin should have also left the matter to the police and if he really did feel threatened run and ask for help. Both reacted in the stupidest possible way to the stupidest possible scenarios. And he result was a disaster (it reminds me of a certain episode of that TV series "the boondocks".... In all honesty, if either one of them had at some point thought "Maybe this whole vigilante justice thing is not as cool as in comic books" then this would have been avoided altogether. But then again, batman...

  5. #35
    MH's Most High Quality Poster 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member earthforge's Avatar
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    Re: What is your opinion of the Trayvon Martin case and verdict?

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    I disagree. Its true obama is a human being but at the same time he is the president of the united states. His status as human being exists alongside his status as an important and influential public figure to whom people all over the world listen to. As a public figure his every move and word is judged and weight differently from those of actual normal people. There is no scenario in which Obama can give his opinion as a human being without it also being his opinion as president of the united states. I would argue there is something inappropriate about a president just giving his opinion on the result of the case. My impression is that there is enough tension with the verdict as it is. Were obama's words ultimately prudent? Its not that he does not have a right to say whatever comes to his mind, he does, its a matter of whether his words were appropriate and prudent. Considering the tension about the case that seems to be out there, I would argue the words of the president of the united states were neither appropriate or prudent in spite of his right to say them.
    One, I disagree that the president speaking on a matter like this would change a thing. Seriously - who have you ever heard insisted that something was true just because Obama said it (AFTER the elections)? It already hasn't changed a thing.

    Two, I've decided that the American public deserves every bit of inaction and gridlock they get because we desire a president who won't say what's on his mind. If we have constantly calls for our president to not offend everyone, we will get a president who won't offend everyone - which is usually by doing nothing.

    This doesn't mean offensive speech shouldn't damage reputation or that public figures should be given less scrutiny, but Obama was not offensive. He was eloquent about his statements, and I support that. This case hit home for Obama, and I can see why. He grew up in the much more racist culture of 30 years ago. He also indulged in drugs. He identifies with the situation of possibly being stalked by another just because of his skin color, and then being called a thug for doing pot.

    Becoming a public official or popular figure should not ever restrict your speech more than an ordinary person. But for some reason, we expect that because we elect someone or follow someone as a fan, that they should be completely representative of us and never speak when they might disagree.

    Ultimately we can achieve this by doing a pluralistic democracy where the majority really does make policy, but that is not today.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    I dunno about zimmerman goading martin into a fight. Its true he did stalk the kid, which is a crime, but overall it does not seem like martin approaching zimmerman to fight him was an appropriate or reasonable response. Or does the law actually permit the attacking of stalkers? Maybe it does but my first guess on the matter would be that approaching a stalker to beat the everloving crap out of him would qualify as assault. It wouldn't have been martin's job to impart justice on zimmerman for following him either....
    Yes, the SYG law approves of deadly force if you "feel" threatened. Applies to both of them. I think the crux of the matter is that you can't have such a law. If you shot someone, you have to prove that you were in imminent threat of your life (which is a little different than just a feeling).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kisame Hoshigaki View Post
    because a gun is demonized whereas beating someones skull against the concrete is perfectly socially acceptable because the mass media has not brainwashed these poor souls to beleive such a thing is wrong
    Not the case. What is distressing is the notion that the SYG law allows someone to goad another into a fight and then shoot them when you start losing the fight.
    Avatar © Chelsea Gordon, author of Not Quite Normal.

  6. #36
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    Re: What is your opinion of the Trayvon Martin case and verdict?

    Quote Originally Posted by earthforge View Post
    One, I disagree that the president speaking on a matter like this would change a thing. Seriously - who have you ever heard insisted that something was true just because Obama said it (AFTER the elections)? It already hasn't changed a thing.

    Two, I've decided that the American public deserves every bit of inaction and gridlock they get because we desire a president who won't say what's on his mind. If we have constantly calls for our president to not offend everyone, we will get a president who won't offend everyone - which is usually by doing nothing.

    This doesn't mean offensive speech shouldn't damage reputation or that public figures should be given less scrutiny, but Obama was not offensive. He was eloquent about his statements, and I support that. This case hit home for Obama, and I can see why. He grew up in the much more racist culture of 30 years ago. He also indulged in drugs. He identifies with the situation of possibly being stalked by another just because of his skin color, and then being called a thug for doing pot.

    Becoming a public official or popular figure should not ever restrict your speech more than an ordinary person. But for some reason, we expect that because we elect someone or follow someone as a fan, that they should be completely representative of us and never speak when they might disagree.

    Ultimately we can achieve this by doing a pluralistic democracy where the majority really does make policy, but that is not today.



    Yes, the SYG law approves of deadly force if you "feel" threatened. Applies to both of them. I think the crux of the matter is that you can't have such a law. If you shot someone, you have to prove that you were in imminent threat of your life (which is a little different than just a feeling).



    Not the case. What is distressing is the notion that the SYG law allows someone to goad another into a fight and then shoot them when you start losing the fight.
    I didn't make the point that obama's words changed a thing, I just made the point that they did not seem prudent, in particular where it concerns a case that was already settled. To be more specific the parts where he referred to the race claims in the case are the ones I find as imprudent. The race claims in the case are all to begin with, just claims. There is no reasonable reason to think any of what happened had anything to do with race (from what I have been able to pick up about the case anyways). No one can prove zimmerman followed martin because of his race. Zimmerman never said or alluded to race during the events which led to the tragedy. No one can prove zimmerman wouldn't have followed shifty looking whites or asians in hoodies. The race claims did not hold up in court in the least. The evidence did not support a hate crime. So.... what exactly were the reasons to think this had anything at all to do with race at all? Maybe I missed something but at least from what I have picked up so far it seems like the only reason race was brought up in the case was, well, martin's race. I mean, would race have even been brought out if martin had been something else? of course not..... Racism is a real problem everywhere, a sick and twisted problem which takes many forms and each and every one of them is as offensive and disturbing as the last, but that does not mean race was a factor every time a crime is committed between people of different races . Sometimes a dude just robbed another. Sometimes a guy just beat the crap out of the other. Sometimes shit happens and racism has nothing to do with it. So.... how are obama's comments appropriate in a case where no one can prove there was racism? If no one can prove racism was a thing (otherwise zimmerman wouldn't have been found innocent as far as I understand) then why is there so much faith being placed into zimmerman being a racist?

    Of course there is also a certain glamor to the whole racism claims here. If the whole thing was motivated by racism then martin was a victim of the evils of society, a martir.... hell, he was a hero (or something). On the other hand if race was never a thing here.... zimmerman was just some dipshit who did stupid things he shouldn't have been doing and martin was some dipshit who responded to stupidity with a matching amount of stupidity. I guess the race claims make the difference between martin being a victim of the evils of society (and racist latinos) and him being some unfortunate guy whose untimely death had no meaning whatsoever.


    Ahhh, I see. That being the case then technically martin would have indeed been permitted by law to shoot first here. That is extremely disturbing. I mean, You basically get to a point where both of them were fighting for their lives and both of them were allowed to just end the other. Of course that does not really turn the situation IMO. Zimmerman should not have followed martin, martin should not have engaged some stranger. Martin having the right to shoot first only makes the case more disturbing, it does not make martin right.

    The whole thing ultimately shouldn't be about race, it should be about people having that much freedom to interpret a situation and just take justice into their hands. Adding race to the mix just muddles up the issue which should be discussed. The case could be used to make the point that it is more reasonable to retreat from this sort of situations than to engage. Perhaps there are situations where you should stand your ground, where for self defense there is no middle ground between being killed or killed but the situation between zimmerman and martin was not one of them. But then again, na na na na na na na batman!

  7. #37
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    Re: What is your opinion of the Trayvon Martin case and verdict?

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    I didn't make the point that obama's words changed a thing, I just made the point that they did not seem prudent, in particular where it concerns a case that was already settled.
    The case will never be settled or ignored, because it deeply affected how the public views state laws and because the government isn't attempting to bury it (as with the Snowden fiasco; I absolutely despise Kerry for wrecking all relations with China and Russia.)

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    To be more specific the parts where he referred to the race claims in the case are the ones I find as imprudent. The race claims in the case are all to begin with, just claims. There is no reasonable reason to think any of what happened had anything to do with race (from what I have been able to pick up about the case anyways).
    What I had heard was that Zimmerman was known for calling in groups of suspicious black males. There's also the attitudes in Florida in particular. In California, I haven't personally witnessed my black classmates being harassed for their skin color. But some of my research colleagues have gone to conferences in Texas and Florida and described open hostility, often tracking with skin color.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    No one can prove zimmerman followed martin because of his race. Zimmerman never said or alluded to race during the events which led to the tragedy.
    Indeed. Had he said the n-word, it would've been easier to build a case. All you can build is the indication that he had been previously biased against blacks, and I don't even know if what I heard is true. There's a lot of bullshit floating around that bothers me about this case.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    So.... what exactly were the reasons to think this had anything at all to do with race at all?
    The previous calls. But maybe I missed one or am wrong all together. Plus, the attitudes of people in Florida. It kinda makes sense because Florida has a huge senior population, who are the most likely to reinforce blank-ist views. (I remember when my grandma told my mom that she'd never vote for Hillary Clinton because "a woman can't run the US". To her daughter-in-law who had managed companies and earned software patents.)

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Ahhh, I see. That being the case then technically martin would have indeed been permitted by law to shoot first here. That is extremely disturbing. I mean, You basically get to a point where both of them were fighting for their lives and both of them were allowed to just end the other. Of course that does not really turn the situation IMO. Zimmerman should not have followed martin, martin should not have engaged some stranger. Martin having the right to shoot first only makes the case more disturbing, it does not make martin right.
    It doesn't make either of them right. I just think Zimmerman has to prove he was in imminent danger instead of getting a free pass. No one should've ended up dead that night.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    TThe whole thing ultimately shouldn't be about race, it should be about people having that much freedom to interpret a situation and just take justice into their hands. Adding race to the mix just muddles up the issue which should be discussed. The case could be used to make the point that it is more reasonable to retreat from this sort of situations than to engage. Perhaps there are situations where you should stand your ground, where for self defense there is no middle ground between being killed or killed but the situation between zimmerman and martin was not one of them. But then again, na na na na na na na batman!
    I think the much scarier case was the Wisconsin old fart who walked up and shot his 13-year old black neighbor in front of his parents. There I think race was a motive.
    Avatar © Chelsea Gordon, author of Not Quite Normal.

  8. #38
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: What is your opinion of the Trayvon Martin case and verdict?

    Quote Quote:
    One, I disagree that the president speaking on a matter like this would change a thing. Seriously - who have you ever heard insisted that something was true just because Obama said it (AFTER the elections)? It already hasn't changed a thing.

    Two, I've decided that the American public deserves every bit of inaction and gridlock they get because we desire a president who won't say what's on his mind. If we have constantly calls for our president to not offend everyone, we will get a president who won't offend everyone - which is usually by doing nothing.
    The problem is, Obama's statements could cause more racial tensions. I mean, saying "I could have been the black kid shot by a white person" isn't going to help matters. I don't give a shit about whether he offends people or not, people are uptight bunch of assholes that takes anything that disagrees with them as offense, so screw that. What I'm concerned with is that Obama could make things worse by making blacks think or realize how racist America is or make them want to take more action.

    Not sure if I'm making sense, but what I'm trying to say is that Obama could make things worse by increasing tensions between the race. Plus, how do we know it's really a racial thing? Isn't Zimmerman Hispanic? I've read reports that say he's Hispanic, anyways. But yeah, it's like saying "blacks have been and continue to be oppressed by whites!" or something.

  9. #39
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: What is your opinion of the Trayvon Martin case and verdict?

    To me it felt like the comment was also a bit wasted. As a result of making the comments be about race it kinda excludes anyone who isn't of the particular race he was talking about. Had he said the bit about how he could have been martin without adding the race comments then the whole thing wouldn't have been about a particular race, it would have been about EVERYONE's kids, it would have been everyone's kids that could be allowed to be shot by law if someone felt threatened by them. Its a small difference but the impact could have been a tad greater IMO and he could have made a stronger case against SYG laws.

    ---------- Post added at 01:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:36 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by earthforge View Post
    The case will never be settled or ignored, because it deeply affected how the public views state laws and because the government isn't attempting to bury it (as with the Snowden fiasco; I absolutely despise Kerry for wrecking all relations with China and Russia.)

    What I had heard was that Zimmerman was known for calling in groups of suspicious black males. There's also the attitudes in Florida in particular. In California, I haven't personally witnessed my black classmates being harassed for their skin color. But some of my research colleagues have gone to conferences in Texas and Florida and described open hostility, often tracking with skin color.

    Indeed. Had he said the n-word, it would've been easier to build a case. All you can build is the indication that he had been previously biased against blacks, and I don't even know if what I heard is true. There's a lot of bullshit floating around that bothers me about this case.

    The previous calls. But maybe I missed one or am wrong all together. Plus, the attitudes of people in Florida. It kinda makes sense because Florida has a huge senior population, who are the most likely to reinforce blank-ist views. (I remember when my grandma told my mom that she'd never vote for Hillary Clinton because "a woman can't run the US". To her daughter-in-law who had managed companies and earned software patents.)

    It doesn't make either of them right. I just think Zimmerman has to prove he was in imminent danger instead of getting a free pass. No one should've ended up dead that night.

    I think the much scarier case was the Wisconsin old fart who walked up and shot his 13-year old black neighbor in front of his parents. There I think race was a motive.
    Thats changing the topic a bit.... Setting aside appeals and whatnot (I don't know if there are going to be any of those) the case was already settled in court. Whether the case itself will have long term consequences and things of the context you are suggesting only time will tell.

    I never really heard about zimmerman saying such things.... If anything it was the opposite. This is from wikipedia:

    Quote Quote:
    He was raised as a Catholic,[32] in a family that his father has described as "multiracial"; his father is a White American of German descent[35] and his mother is Peruvian with some black ancestry through her Afro-Peruvian maternal grandfather.[32][Note 3] Zimmerman's voter registration record lists him as Hispanic and a registered Democrat.

    In early 2011, Zimmerman participated in a citizen forum at the Sanford City Hall, to protest the beating of a black homeless man by the son of a white Sanford police officer. During the meeting, Zimmerman called the behavior of officers on duty "disgusting" and detailed officers napping while on duty and refusing to take on difficult assignments.[43]
    None of that screams racist IMO.

    There is a lot of speculation in that. I haven't really read all the transcripts but from the ones I picked up he did not mention race once...

    Well, that is my original point, neither of them was right in anything they did. It was unfortunate stupidity clashing directly with unfortunate stupidity..... Wouldn't zimmerman having to prove he was in imminent danger be against presumption of innocence? His account of the events was investigated and at least no witness account could reasonably discredit his version. After an investigation, a reenactment of the events and processing witness accounts his account stood in court. I don't think more could be done without actually violating some of zimmerman's own rights (which even in the worst case scenario he still has). Its just to easy to put it all on zimmerman.... He did make the first stupid move, he was the one with the gun, it was a kid that died.... but the exact opposite scenario was also possible. Based on the account given it was a perfectly possible scenario that zimmerman's head was smashed against concrete and died on the spot. In which case you have a kid making the point that he was threatened and defended himself and killed a grown man with his bare hands.

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    Re: What is your opinion of the Trayvon Martin case and verdict?

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    To me it felt like the comment was also a bit wasted. As a result of making the comments be about race it kinda excludes anyone who isn't of the particular race he was talking about. Had he said the bit about how he could have been martin without adding the race comments then the whole thing wouldn't have been about a particular race, it would have been about EVERYONE's kids, it would have been everyone's kids that could be allowed to be shot by law if someone felt threatened by them. Its a small difference but the impact could have been a tad greater IMO and he could have made a stronger case against SYG laws.
    I agree completely! Race wasn't brought up in the Wisconsin case and they managed to get a verdict. For some reason the prosecution in this case was terrible. Almost as bad as with the Casey Anthony case. They were a public spectacle more than legal experts.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    I never really heard about zimmerman saying such things.... If anything it was the opposite. This is from wikipedia:

    None of that screams racist IMO.
    Never trust an editable source. Though frankly, I don't trust any source right now, especially as this case has garnered so much attention. There will be a lot of rewriting Zimmerman's and Martin's histories to suit each PoV. I am extremely suspicious when Zimmerman is portrayed as a hero for, say, saving a bunch of people in a car crash or protecting black men. Just like when Martin's photo was posted of him as a child, I feel like my sympathy strings are being pulled for some other reason. I will wait until the incident loses importance and then video/audio footage to be released per a cursory hacking of the Florida police database. The narrative will be rewritten again by the hacker (as with "ClimateGate", which was absolute bullshit), but we might get real evidence then.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Well, that is my original point, neither of them was right in anything they did. It was unfortunate stupidity clashing directly with unfortunate stupidity..... Wouldn't zimmerman having to prove he was in imminent danger be against presumption of innocence? His account of the events was investigated and at least no witness account could reasonably discredit his version.
    That is the problem. The only witness who had equal testimony to Zimmerman is dead. He gets an automatic pass because no one else can show what happened that night. We see how presumption of innocence only goes for the living, and I think there's a problem with that. Even Mehserle was convicted, and Mehserle didn't start the confrontation - he just screwed up by grabbing his gun instead of his taser.

    Unless you were confronted with immediate danger, you don't have a right to initiate a confrontation by following someone. Martin did not pose a threat to Zimmerman's person. Martin did not approach Zimmerman. Zimmerman approached Martin. Someone died. There must be some sort of punishment, because we have just sanctioned the action of a citizen following another citizen without their consent, AKA stalking (which I find distressing as someone who has been stalked) and then killing the person they stalked.

    Think about it: if Zimmerman followed a woman, would we sympathize with him? Would we believe him if he claimed the woman attacked him and then he shot her? Even if the woman dwarfed him in size, we'd be suspicious of him.

    But if a man follows another man, we don't sympathize with the stalked? We suddenly believe that the man could attack him, but that man shouldn't have done it (while we would've cheered for the woman). The stalked man has to fit a profile of the victim: he has to be smaller, weaker, have a heart problem, etc.

    The racism brought up in this case is endemic to certain areas of the south and might have had relevance in Zimmerman's choice.

    But I think society's reaction, or at least the younger citizens, displays a different problem - that people who do not look like victims couldn't be stalked.

    If I posted a picture of a white male or black male looking angry and then say that he was stalked, I don't think people would believe me. If I posted a picture of a child or woman and then say he/she was stalked, I think people would. Heck, we saw that when Martin's picture was first posted. When the picture changed, the reaction shifted from rage at Zimmerman to rage at Martin. Part of it was out of betrayal, but another part was because of believability.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Based on the account given it was a perfectly possible scenario that zimmerman's head was smashed against concrete and died on the spot. In which case you have a kid making the point that he was threatened and defended himself and killed a grown man with his bare hands.
    But we have no way of knowing if Zimmerman goaded him. We will never know. We can only judge Zimmerman's character in such a conflict, and it was damaged to begin with by stalking another. And even that is extremely difficult to tell because of rewriting the narrative on both sides. I half expect messages like "Martin adopted kittens that were about to be euthanized" or "Zimmerman saved his neighbor from a three-alarm fire". I get very angry when I know I'm being manipulated.

    ---------- Post added at 04:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:07 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    The problem is, Obama's statements could cause more racial tensions. I mean, saying "I could have been the black kid shot by a white person" isn't going to help matters.
    I disagree. Racial tensions are already high and nobody listens to Obama. The more extreme black politicians have even criticized him for being too late. Obama's popularity is so low right now, I don't think he could amplify any racial tension. So given the environment, I think his words will make no difference. To me, they are relevant because the story corroborates with some UCB educated people I know. But they aren't any more relevant to the case than embedded racism in parts of the south.
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    Re: What is your opinion of the Trayvon Martin case and verdict?

    I don't see what's wrong with trusting Wikipedia as long as you check out the source and make sure it's legitimate. It's no different from trusting news, they get their sources by asking, researching, and etc.

    I thought a lot of "minorities" did listen to Obama. Even if they don't, they'll listen to stuff like this, considering it agrees with their whites oppressing blacks mindset. I'm sure Obama has the potential to amplify tension between races, regardless of his popularity. But I'm sure Zimmerman did not do what he did out of racism. I mean, wouldn't you judge a kid to be bad, whether black, white, or Asian, if he was wearing a hoodie and looking shady?

    The media is full of shit. Some pander to blacks/minorities by showing pictures of Trayvon looking innocent and all, completely disregarding pics of him showing his middle fingers or looking "gangster," and some pander to whites/racists by making Zimmerman look good. It's so hard to get unbiased reports because the news share their opinions more than they do facts.

  12. #42
    MH's Most High Quality Poster 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member earthforge's Avatar
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    Re: What is your opinion of the Trayvon Martin case and verdict?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    I don't see what's wrong with trusting Wikipedia as long as you check out the source and make sure it's legitimate. It's no different from trusting news, they get their sources by asking, researching, and etc.
    A lot of it isn't. Have you ever read their physics write-ups? Much is garbage. Combine that with a publicly visible case, and you're toast. Don't forget that anyone can edit Wikipedia, and most reference news sources like CNN and Fox.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    I thought a lot of "minorities" did listen to Obama. Even if they don't, they'll listen to stuff like this, considering it agrees with their whites oppressing blacks mindset.
    I don't feel I'm getting through here. You see, Obama is reviled still by such groups for not taking strong enough action. He is being egged by both extremists.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    I mean, wouldn't you judge a kid to be bad, whether black, white, or Asian, if he was wearing a hoodie and looking shady?
    (A) We do not know for certain if Martin looked shady at all.
    (B) No matter how they looked, Zimmerman had no authority to stalk him for "looking shady".
    (C) Define "shady". If you saw someone walking along in the night looking angry or smug, would you call them "shady"? What if the person was angry because he was yelled at? What if that person was smug because he was right about a plot twist in a TV series? You can't judge a person based on how they look! You can only judge based on what they do!

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    The media is full of shit. Some pander to blacks/minorities by showing pictures of Trayvon looking innocent and all, completely disregarding pics of him showing his middle fingers or looking "gangster," and some pander to whites/racists by making Zimmerman look good. It's so hard to get unbiased reports because the news share their opinions more than they do facts.
    Should pictures of either Zimmerman or Martin doing stupid shit matter? Prior to the Aurora Theater Massacre, the pictures of James Holmes were not indicative of someone who would've gone on a shooting spree. Releasing these pictures is a way of manipulating sides, just like revealing info like "oh he smoked marijuana so he's a thug!!"

    It's not just the media. They prey on biases that exist in the public, in you. Try running that thought experiment in your head - what if this had happened with a woman or anyone else who fits society's view of the victim?
    Avatar © Chelsea Gordon, author of Not Quite Normal.

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    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: What is your opinion of the Trayvon Martin case and verdict?

    Quote Originally Posted by earthforge View Post
    A lot of it isn't. Have you ever read their physics write-ups? Much is garbage. Combine that with a publicly visible case, and you're toast. Don't forget that anyone can edit Wikipedia, and most reference news sources like CNN and Fox.
    Hence why I say to check your sources and make sure it's good. Meaning you can look at their source and look for other sources as well. If nothing else, Wikipedia is useful in finding sources, which may not always be good.



    Quote Quote:
    I don't feel I'm getting through here. You see, Obama is reviled still by such groups for not taking strong enough action. He is being egged by both extremists.
    Yes, I understood that the first time. But, what I'm saying is that a lot of people wouldn't care as long as it agrees with what they think. At the least, people will agree or sympathize with Obama more and use his statements to show how blacks are treated.



    Quote Quote:
    (A) We do not know for certain if Martin looked shady at all.
    (B) No matter how they looked, Zimmerman had no authority to stalk him for "looking shady".
    (C) Define "shady". If you saw someone walking along in the night looking angry or smug, would you call them "shady"? What if the person was angry because he was yelled at? What if that person was smug because he was right about a plot twist in a TV series? You can't judge a person based on how they look! You can only judge based on what they do!
    True, we don't. He wore a hoodie though, and being black, Zimmerman likely profiled him to possibly be up to no good. Before I get accused, I want to make it clear that I don't agree with racial profiling, whether or not Zimmerman did do it.

    I agree, he had no authority to stalk Martin, and especially when he was ordered not to. That was his main mistake.

    "Shady" is suspicious. Something like me putting on a hoodie and looking withdrawn or something. And sadly, many people will judge on appearances before action, first impression and all. You could be a huge gangster bitch for all anyone knows, but if you wear good or professional clothes and look good, people will think you're a professional until they talk to you. A good person would likely be seen as a bad person or a dangerous person if he wears a street or thug clothes.

    Appearances count. My opinion is that people tend to judge based on appearances based on experience or what they know in order to know whether they should avoid or ignore the person to avoid danger. Not sure if this makes sense, but I don't wanna proofread and end up confusing myself even more.



    Quote Quote:
    Should pictures of either Zimmerman or Martin doing stupid shit matter? Prior to the Aurora Theater Massacre, the pictures of James Holmes were not indicative of someone who would've gone on a shooting spree. Releasing these pictures is a way of manipulating sides, just like revealing info like "oh he smoked marijuana so he's a thug!!"

    It's not just the media. They prey on biases that exist in the public, in you. Try running that thought experiment in your head - what if this had happened with a woman or anyone else who fits society's view of the victim?
    I know, I agree. But the media doesn't give a shit, they only care about profits and manipulating people. Those pictures are one of the many ways for people to buy newspapers or watch the news and think they're getting unbiased information when the media is trying to make Martin or Zimmerman look guilty. Sadly, providing unbiased FACTS is a lost art, if it ever existed, and now it's all about being sensational or invoking the public's feelings or sympathies.

    if it happened to a woman, unless she had bad past or something, Zimmerman would likely be in deep shit because he shot a woman after stalking her. Same if it was a kid, but wasn't Martin a teenager? Either way though, Stand Your Ground is probably what got Zimmerman off scotfree. Might work against a woman too, for all we know. :\

  14. #44
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: What is your opinion of the Trayvon Martin case and verdict?

    Quote Originally Posted by earthforge View Post
    That is the problem. The only witness who had equal testimony to Zimmerman is dead. He gets an automatic pass because no one else can show what happened that night. We see how presumption of innocence only goes for the living, and I think there's a problem with that. Even Mehserle was convicted, and Mehserle didn't start the confrontation - he just screwed up by grabbing his gun instead of his taser.

    Unless you were confronted with immediate danger, you don't have a right to initiate a confrontation by following someone. Martin did not pose a threat to Zimmerman's person. Martin did not approach Zimmerman. Zimmerman approached Martin. Someone died. There must be some sort of punishment, because we have just sanctioned the action of a citizen following another citizen without their consent, AKA stalking (which I find distressing as someone who has been stalked) and then killing the person they stalked.
    That's a bit strange... I mean, how can presumption of innocence go in any other direction? Are you suggesting we should, with the evidence provided, just assume zimmerman's account of the events is a lie? In spite of the fact that there is no reason to suggest his account of the events checks out?


    Quote Originally Posted by earthforge View Post
    Think about it: if Zimmerman followed a woman, would we sympathize with him? Would we believe him if he claimed the woman attacked him and then he shot her? Even if the woman dwarfed him in size, we'd be suspicious of him.

    But if a man follows another man, we don't sympathize with the stalked? We suddenly believe that the man could attack him, but that man shouldn't have done it (while we would've cheered for the woman). The stalked man has to fit a profile of the victim: he has to be smaller, weaker, have a heart problem, etc.

    But I think society's reaction, or at least the younger citizens, displays a different problem - that people who do not look like victims couldn't be stalked.
    I agree but that is an entirely different issue. Its one thing to discuss whether zimmerman should have walked home free based on what he was charged of and it is an entirely different one to discuss whether he should have walked free from other stuff. Zimmerman was not accused of stalking, he was accused of second degree murder. Based on the evidence provided, the circumstances of the case and the alleged charges the only reasonable thing that could have ever happened was zimmerman walking home free. Nothing else would be fair or reasonable.

    Its entirely possible zimmerman could have been charged with stalking and be found guilty but that is not what happened. He can't be accused of second degree murder but still be treated as if he was charged with something else.

    Could zimmerman be charged with stalking? How is it defined by law? I was under the impression that stalking required repetition and intent to harm or something of the sort. Zimmerman did not even know martin, this was a one time thing which was done based on a stupid decision of his. Had things been slightly different its unlikely the two would have ever met again. Then again whether he could be charged with stalking or not depends on how competent the prosecution was and whether the circumstances of the case would allow for zimmerman to have been charged with that. We can't really saw stalking is being sanction if to begin with zimmerman was not charged with it. Its entirely possible the law could be in the wrong regarding what is stalking however that is a different issue. Even if what zimmerman did was stalking he can't really be prosecuted for it if for whatever reason what he did does not quality as stalking according to the law.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member faintsmile1992's Avatar
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    Re: What is your opinion of the Trayvon Martin case and verdict?

    i have more taste than to follow show trials, which is what this was because of the silly media circus.

    Nonetheless I couldn't help but notice Zimmerman was described as 'white' when he is mixed race like Obama and of Afro-Peruvian descent.

    ---------- Post added at 02:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:23 PM ----------

    The correct term for how the media handled Zimmerman was 'implicit whiteness'. Even though Zimmerman wasn't white, either anthropologically or by the 'social identity' sense of the word (he was visibly mixed race), he was purposefully presented as such so that white people were implicitly manipulated - not explicitly goaded - to take Zimmerman's side... "let's you and him fight!".

    Whilst support for Trayvon Martin was drummed up in a far cruder fashion by showing him as a 12 year old brat or something instead of a 20 year old gang member - though its maybe not so much difference if you think how old American blacks often are when they first join gangs. Someone looking like 12uo Trayvon might've owned his first gun the week after those innocent-looking photos were taken, because that's about the age lads get initiated into gangs - and yea lads that age in that kind of culture really do kill. Pictures of Trayvon looking innocent might sway affluent white people who believe in preserving children from anything nasty or harmful, but on their own doorstep exist cultures with different values than their own. Way more innocent-looking black kids that age (let alone Trayvon's actual age) are killed by other blacks with firearms than are by white gun owners, but big media can't turn those stories into a race relations headline.

    Trayvon died the way his gang culture sees as honourable and authentic and real, I don't think he wanted to be remembered as some little kid given those other photos of 'No Limit Nigga'. Just compare the following photos to see how Trayvon saw himself in contrast to how the telly makes him look.




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