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  • Yoruichi Shihōin

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Thread: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Yoruichi vs Shunsui

  1. #16
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member shuha27's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Yoruichi vs Shunsui

    Does Yoruichi get to use the armor she used against Aizen?
    Last edited by shuha27; July 18, 2013 at 02:20 AM.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Yoruichi vs Shunsui

    Quote Originally Posted by shuha27 View Post
    Does Yoruichi get to use the armor she used against Aizen?
    That's not how she usually fights, so she doesn't.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Yoruichi vs Shunsui

    Plus, Yoruichi with armor doesn't have da speed. She said herself that she couldn't dodge Aizen with armor thingies on.
    Erfworld

    Quote Originally Posted by Bromamura View Post
    Meh can't have Bleach without fan raging, makes it fun.

  4. #19
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member shuha27's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Yoruichi vs Shunsui

    Well then, I guess I have to go with Shunsui. I don't think it will be an easy match for him but those games can catch Yoruichi off guard. She doesn't really have anything big in her arsenal beside shunko. If she had that armor she would have more attack power and defensive capabilities and I think with that armor she would still be able to match Shunsui's speed but that's just my speculation.
    Last edited by shuha27; July 18, 2013 at 04:06 AM.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Yoruichi vs Shunsui

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Proof, please?
    Let me jump in.
    Here Yama states that he retained the position of CC because he's the strongest. This more than hints that the most powerful captain is selected to be Captain Commander. Maybe Kenpachi can say otherwise, but he's not a right fit for the position. Shunsui is absolutely top-tier, whatever you make of it. Just because you prefer Yoruichi, don't deny everything that even so much as threatens to cast the shadow of doubt on your ideas. That's the mark of a fool, especially since this manga is not exact science.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    You seem to forget one thing. Shunsui is not the only one who can play those games. He is the only one who knows when to play which game, but Yoruichi isn't stupid. I'd even say she is fairly intelligent. She would play along, use those games against him.
    Yup, except that Shunsui has at the very least an initial advantage in each game, period. Why? You cannot deny that Shunsui knows the exact ins and outs of his Zan and all it's techniques. He has waaaayyyyy more experience in using them. Also considering the parameters of this tournament, we have to asume Yoruichi has never fought aghainst his shikai. And it's damn tricky. I think that most people will agree that Starrk was one of the three most intelligent, analytical and perceptive Arrancar ( the others being Szayel and Ulquiorra). His analytical prowess was remarked upon and complimented several times as being outstanding. And even someone who was that impressive ( and lets be honest, Starrk has shown way more feats of intellect and perceptiveness than Yoruichi) could not overcome Shunsui's mastery of these games. All in all, assuming that Yoruichi could outgame Shunsui before getting at least heavily injured is really, reaallly stretching it. The probability is simply not as high.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    1. She's not outspeeding Shunsui? Are we reading the same manga? Show me where Shunsui proved to be at least fast. He can cover big distance with one leap, that's the only statement, that was made in manga. Still, he was far slower than Yamamoto.
    Though I agree that Yoruichi is likely faster, if you disagree with Shunsui being fast then YOU, my friend, are not reading the same manga. Starrk had shown exceptional speed, surprising Ichigo and Kenpachi with his teleport-like Sonido. Starrk showed speed in his reaction and movement that was commented upon several times. His speed was one of his most dangerous elements. Shunsui has shown to be able to keep up with Starrks speed. Shunsui's speed is top notch. Perhaps not as fast as Yoruichi, but speed alone does not win a battle. It helps, but is not decisive. At this point I'm starting to wonder wether you're not overly biased towards Yoruichi and thus asume a DBZ attitude where the victor can only win if he roflstomps an opponent? Give credit where it's due. Speed: Yoruichi wins, but not by such an extreme margin as you imply.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    2. Shunsui AND UKITAKE fought with Yama. And it's pretty important thing, as Ukitake can redirect any reiattsu-based attack. That fights DOESN'T prove, that is a tank.
    True, Ukitake has that handy ability. But to suggest that someone as godly as Yama could not isolate Shunsui is gross underestimation of the old man's ability. Shunsui has to get close to damage Yama and Uki cannot always be there to cover for Shunsui. he had to jump into the fire, literally. Though the fight indeed did not prove him to be a tank, it did suggest durability and skill. Undecided.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    3. He ate Stark's cero and it didn't have an effect? The fact is, he took it and fell on the floor helplessly, then didn't want to fight and waited with his head in the rubble, hoping Vaizards will clean it up.
    He waited on purpose for one of two reasons:
    1. He did not want to fight, like he did earlier. Unlikely.
    2. He observed the battlefield, since it drastically changed with the revival of Bar and Har, Aizen, Gin and Tousen being free, Wonderweiss and the Vizards appearing. Since Shunsui is analytical and perceptive, he'll feel the new situation out to act accrdingly. Underhanded, maybe, but effective wartime strategy nontheless. The cero did damage, but not nearly enough to really impede him. And Starrk's cero were insane.


    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    4. So nowadays losing an eye is a testament of being a tank? Damn. I wonder how tanky someone has to be to lose whole arm! It's not really strange, considering every Shinigami's reiatsu is protecting the body. Ichigo could handle Kirge's arrows in Vollstandig and wasn't even scratched. Shunsui's reiatsu wasn't big enough to repel that arrow.
    Though you had some strong points, now you're talking nonsense. Where to start... Being a "tank", wether or not he actually is, does not neccesarily mean you come out unscathed. It means you remain standing after taking considerable amounts of damage. Which he in fact did. Being shot in the head tends to kill most people. Shunsui lost an eye. Yet he was tenacious enough to keep standing and continue fighting. The culprit is likely one of the more powerful Sternritter.
    And please, do not compare this battle to a battle that has absolutely NOTHING to do with this one. Quilge is an entirely different person, with different powers than the gunslinging Sternritter. Not to mention Ichigo is an entirely different combatant than Shunsui. I will completely disregard that statement because it says NOTHING about the power behind anyones Heilig Pfeill, except Quilge's.


    So there you have it. you win some, you lose some, and you overall lacked a certain nuance. Remember that if you cannot doubt your own theories, or god forbid you might not even attempt to, you clearly haven't thought things through enough, and that endangers the overall strength of your theory especially as bias creeps in.

    As for me, I voted Shunsui since I see him as more experienced, versatile, dangerous and skilled. Yoruichi wins in speed, but not by a huge margin. She probably wins in shunpo technique. She easily wins in hand to hand. But that is only a small part of Shinigami combat, and I see Shunsui being clearly superior in each other area, such as Kido, reiatsu, swordsmanship, etc.
    Last edited by Smerten; July 18, 2013 at 04:54 AM.

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  7. #21
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Buzz Killington's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Yoruichi vs Shunsui

    There are vulnerable points on anyone, really. Take specific note of Nnoitra vs Kenpachi. Kenny was having a tough time damaging Nnoitra, so what does he do?

    http://www.mangapanda.com/94-761-15/...apter-307.html
    He goes for his neck, which Nnoitra quickly dodges. This is the same Nnoitra who moments before was gladly taking hits just to show how he couldn't be cut. Yet Kenpachi easily discerns why Nnoitra decided to move this time
    http://www.mangapanda.com/94-761-16/...apter-307.html

    But continue reading and Kenny makes another observation
    http://www.mangapanda.com/94-761-18/...apter-307.html
    http://www.mangapanda.com/94-761-19/...apter-307.html

    Point Kenny's making is that no matter who you are, your eye and throat will be a vulnerable/soft area. So Shunsui getting his eye shot out is by no means a knock on his durability. If that didn't happen, well, OMQ would've had to be pathetically weak

  8. #22
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Yoruichi vs Shunsui

    It wouldnt surprise me if Shunsui is fluent in each style of fighting. Afterall, Yama was his teacher, and we know he is proficient in every category. Hes shown one instance of hakuda. That was completely dominating Chad with a touch of his fingers. He didn't call a name but the technique is called tsukiyubi or thrust fingers. So Yoruichi isn't the only one with hand to hand combat skill.

  9. #23
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member conn-man's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Yoruichi vs Shunsui

    Shunsui is one of the fastest guys in bleach but he's a different kind of fast. He can't blaze about like yoruichi and ichigo do but he's got incredibly quick, unpredictable and expert sword skills. He won't want to get hit by big shunkou smack but I say he's got the right mix to face off againt yoruichi.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Yoruichi vs Shunsui

    Quote Originally Posted by freshseth83 View Post
    Starrk was "fairly intelligent" as well, he played along and lost. You can't seriously say she will 'play along' and use his games against him when all it takes is one swing to kill the #1 espada.
    One swing to kill #1 espada? I have nice site for you:

    http://www.mangareader.net/94/bleach.html

    Read all of it before you write such nonsense.

    Quote Quote:
    No, she's not. Is that the goto argument when you have no rebuttal?
    Any speed feats by Shunsui to prove it? Because there are plenty of feats to show from Yoruichi. In Shunsui's case... almost being caught by Stark's Cero if not for Ukitake, being outrun by Yamaji and... this is the end of speed feats by Shunsui. Me having no rebuttal? Did you just accuse me of something you're afraid to admit?

    Quote Quote:
    Everyone is slower than Yama! When Shunsui dodged Starrk's cero with ease, that's speed. When Shunsui took Nanao back to where it was safe from Yama's power and came back in the same instance, that's speed.
    So nowadays carrying someone from one place to another is a proof of someone's speed... Ok. "Covering long distance with one step" isn't SPEED. There are also reflexes, that are even more crucial. And long step is good for escaping. In real fight, you have to use it wisely, precisely to cover SMALL distance, in order for you to make a clean hit. And that's what Yoruichi is the master of. I don't know if Shunsui would use his extra long flashstep to attack someone. He does 200 metres shunpo, enemy is 2 metres away, pretty useless if you ask me. Also, no proof that Yoruichi couldn't cover just as long distance. Do you even remember, that you should talk about Yoruichi being slower than Shunsui, not about Shunsui being fast? Going by his feats, you have no proof. I can prove she was faster than average captain, devised ultrahigh-speed techniques for special corps, that SoiFon and Byakuya used. Also, going by the databooks, she could fight evenly with Soifon, whose speed is ranked 100. She outrun Byakuya easily with Ichigo on her back, that is ranked 90. Yamaji, who is ranked 100 outrun Shunsui easily, who is ranked 90. So yup, Shunsui is not outspeeding Yoruichi and Kubo himself says so.

    Yama also didn't show anything to be considered very fast in manga. His reiatsu and Zanpakuto, that made him so invincible DON'T make him fast. Don't assume things in discussion, it'll make you look bad.

    And he didn't dodge all Ceros, Ukitake saved him from one, he was hit by the first. The troubles started when Stark stopped playing games and shot more than ONE Cero.

    http://www.mangareader.net/94-7112-1...apter-362.html

    Bro, I tell ya, reading the manga really pays off in discussions like this!

    Quote Quote:
    You can't say Juushiro can or did redirect Yama's fire. That fight wasn't my only example. You disregarded the rest, wonder why?
    Actually, I can. Either that, or Yamaji's fire doesn't have effect on Ukitake and Shunsui, so they should have bigger reiatsu, which leads to complete bullshit. Ukitake's ability was thoroughly explained, it absorbs everything that is reiatsu. I wonder if it can be overloaded with power. It'd be your only possible explanation. Also, the point was Ukitake was there and Shunsui wasn't alone, so you should really stop spouting nonsense and don't cling on the least important parts of my reply to write something. I have a offer for you. You either adress the main point, or you write nothing at all. How do people tend to call it? Cherry picking? Something like that. I can be wrong, I'm not a native english speaker.

    I disregarded anything? I think it's time for you to learn reading, because you obviously have a problem there, sir. You talked about three fights. Shunsui vs Yamaji, Shunsui vs SR with Grimaniel and Shunsui vs Stark. Which one of those I didn't mention in my post? Which point of yours I disregarded?

    Quote Quote:
    That's a joke right? Lisa caught him playing dead, and Shunsui ADMITTED it.
    http://www.mangareader.net/94/bleach.html

    Read it, please?

    You know why Shunsui played dead? Because he wanted Vaizards to take care of it and didn't want to fight. And I'm sure he wouldn't want to show himself in that state to his beloved Lisa! (that's sarcasm, in case you'd like to play smart)

    But guess what. He was shot down with single Cero and he didn't play falling down to the ground, . I didn't say he was killed with a single Cero, just that he fell. And you know what? There was no Vaizards when he was shot and he really did take damage from that attack. Enough to stop protecting Ukitake from being killed by 2 enemies, that were next to him. And it's still so clear for you, that he just pretended to fall!

    Quote Quote:
    Conjecture. You disregarded the rest of my statement and make assumptive notions without stating the entire quote. Akin to cherry picking. It wasn't an arrow per se, it was fired from a gun, and from a Quincy using Volstandig Grimaniel. Shunsui didn't even use a Shikai game and forced a top Quincy to use his highest technique. You've a lot to explain on your arguments and Yoruichi defense.
    So it really was "cherry picking".

    There was no "rest of your statement". To prove your point, that he is a tank, you used SR shooting his eye. Pardon my irony back there, but that point was just as ridicoulous as carrying Nanao being testament of speed. You also have NO IDEA how to discuss. How can you even say, that I have anything to prove? You attacked my argument, so as a counter-argument, you should disprove me with appropriate panels. Which you didn't. You can't say I have to prove anything, as it was me who first wrote about it and you chose to disagree. I don't want to badmouth that little flag under your nickname, but why does it not suprise me?

    Yup, it was a gun shooting reishi, it wasn't an arrow. But then again, you write about something COMPLETELY irrelevant to my point, you cherry picker. And using your screwed up way of writing. It wasn't Grimaniel Vollstandig, it was Grimaniel, that looked like Vollstandig and I suggest you to stop making up things for your own convenience.

    And you completely don't know how it went down... First of all, he didn't "smirk" about it. He commented on how he tries to act cool but is nervous. Then he himself said, that SR got him pretty good. And then again, you start to write more on a topic that is completely unrelated to prove your point that has nothing to do with your explanation. Thank you, Mr. I-have-no-idea-what-to-write-becase-I-haven't-read-Bleach.

    Your original points were:

    1. Yoruichi is not faster than Shunsui (or is even slower)
    2. Shunsui is a tank.

    None of the points (as you tend to call it), or nonsense (that word matches my taste perfectly in your case), were proved by SR shooting Shunsui in the eye, Shunsui carrying Nanao and Shunsui fighting with Yamamoto (disregarding Ukitake to suit your tastes, akin to cherry picking, right?). So let me ask you one question. How does being strong enough to fight with SR makes you a TANK. I think you should learn what that means. It means high defence and resistance, TANKING lots of damage and not falling. Example of "tank" is Kenpachi. Not Shunsui.

    I know you won't write anything that has sense. So I have another offer you today! I'll answer your posts if few conditions are met:

    1. You will counter my arguments properly, with panels from manga. At least you'll show me, that you read it at least once.
    2. You will not concentrate on things, that are meaningless to original point.
    3. You will not try to attack me as a person, you'll discuss the topic. Cherry picking? Pot calling a kettle black. And that pot doesn't even have a proper basis to say so, pitiful hypocrite. ..
    4. You will not write the same thing again, because I will have already answered those "arguments". If you don't agree with my justification, back to condition #1.
    5. You will justify your original points, instead of writing how Shunsui was good enough to make SR use Grimaniel, that has nothing to do with Shunsui being a tank or faster than Yoruichi.
    6. You will check, if you know the meaning of the words you're using. Word "tank" for example.

  11. #25
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Buzz Killington's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Yoruichi vs Shunsui

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    "Covering long distance with one step" isn't SPEED.
    Speed is measured in distance over time

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Yoruichi vs Shunsui

    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Killington View Post
    Speed is measured in distance over time
    Tell me more about it. We have no informations about the actual speed of one leap. We know only, that he covered long distance, nothing about time. Noone said it was fast. Still, covering long distance isn't what speed is all about. It's like that in every martial art. Thinking being fast is all about fast running is plain wrong. What's important is situational judgement, fast decision and fast movement connected to decision, that was made. He can make one big leap but it doesn't help him if opponent is right next to him, right? And he has to make decision about making that leap before doing it. If he wants to fight he has to make swift decision and make SHORT, but FAST movement. We know only, that he can make a LONG leap. Is it enough to say he is fast in extremely close combat?

  13. #27
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Yoruichi vs Shunsui

    One step means chaining the movements in quick succession so that the actual movement is perceived as a single step for others. In other words, it still denotes a speed of high caliber, which would reflect upon your reflex speed. Leaving the thinking part aside, which is unmeasurable, Hakuda pretty much only relies on that reflex speed to survive.
    That long leap is consisting of many short, fast body reactions chained together (he doesn't teleport himself to a faraway point, after all), so, we can safely assume he has proof that he is fast. Well, probably not to the degree that he can win a Hakuda duel, but that would never be Kyouraku's aim in this fight, anyway. He needs to be fast enough on the defensive stance to survive and then take the initiative himself to dictate the fight's pace.

  14. #28
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member leshrak's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Yoruichi vs Shunsui

    According to the databook, Shunsui's agility/mobility is 90/100, which means he's well trainned on this matter. And he got many feats in terms of speed, which were already stated by other people here, to prove that. He may not be as fast as Yoruichi, but he sure is not a slow fighter. Also, the battle is not decided by speed only.
    Last edited by leshrak; July 21, 2013 at 09:54 AM.
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Quarter Finals: Yoruichi vs Shunsui

    Result

    Yoruichi Shihōin : 8
    Shunsui Kyōraku: 20

    Shunsui Kyōraku advances to the next round.

    You can discuss the results in Bleach Tournament Discussion Thread.

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