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Thread: Sakanade, Kyoka Suigetsu : bankai or shikai ?

  1. #16
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Sakanade, Kyoka Suigetsu : bankai or shikai ?

    Well, the manga at large does suggest that even when mastered the collateral damage from bankai is difficult to manage. As I said earlier, the first example would be hitsugaya's shikai. Kira almost died from it back then. Of course then there is byakuya and his bankai. Byakuya told hanatarou to stay back otherwise he could not guarantee his safety. In yamamoto's case even his shikai unilaterally destroyed everything around him and that was from a mere release. His bankai caused quite a bit of damage by itself considering the evaporating water. Soifon's bankai is just a huge ass explosion..... its not something that can ever be used with team mates in the vicinity. Mayuri's bankai seems manageable but there is the consideration that one of its main abilities is to release poison into the air. Quite an inconvenient ability to have when alongside friends. Komamura has a manageable bankai but even then a mistep or uncareful movement can be fatal overall. Realistically speaking the only character in the manga that has shown a bankai which can be used without consequences or extreme care around others is ichigo's and only because his is a compression of power so far. Tousen never really mentioned he could choose who his bankai affected so it stands to reason he can''t use it with friends inside it. Something can perhaps be said about gin although the fact that his bankai moves faster than what he is apparently capable of does leave so very grey areas there. Bankai at large is an extreme and overwhelming release of power and so far none of the captains can really avoid the collateral damage it causes. They can master the use of the overwhelming amount of power but safe for ichigo none has shown they can use it without destroying a lot of stuff around. In turn shikai has proven to be extremely convenient in this regard (except for hitsugaya's full shikai power which he has only used once).

    As for how yamamoto had so many techniques.... I guess he was lucky? My impression is that certain individuals are actually simply lucky that way for the most part. Yamamoto's shikai was simply the release of a lot of fire so he has the freedom to do with said fire as he wants. He can shape it at his pleasure, it is a matter of his training the techniques. Same thing could be said about urahara, he has a zampakuto which conveintly allows him to shape the energy he releases. In turn, say, ikkaku's zampakuto does not really release energy freely so he wouldn't have a zampakuto fit for technique development. Aizen would be in the same boat. He is one, if not the, most accomplished shinigami in the manga and he did not really show many zampakuto techniques in spite of the fact that he was extremely proficient at kido. He simply did not have a zampakuto fit for technique development. Arroniero as kaien also mentioned that he helped rukia develop one of her techniques and rukia did say she developed a technique after kaien died (the third dance thing). I guess it comes down to there being two kinds of techniques when it comes to zampakuto. There are the inherent techniques to the zampakuto, the named ones that define most shinigami (say, getsuga tensho) and then there are techniques which are developed as a joint effort between shinigami and zampakuto and are overall new things to both of them.

  2. #17
    Banned 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Sakanade, Kyoka Suigetsu : bankai or shikai ?

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    As for how yamamoto had so many techniques.... I guess he was lucky? My impression is that certain individuals are actually simply lucky that way for the most part. Yamamoto's shikai was simply the release of a lot of fire so he has the freedom to do with said fire as he wants. He can shape it at his pleasure, it is a matter of his training the techniques. Same thing could be said about urahara, he has a zampakuto which conveintly allows him to shape the energy he releases. In turn, say, ikkaku's zampakuto does not really release energy freely so he wouldn't have a zampakuto fit for technique development. Aizen would be in the same boat. He is one, if not the, most accomplished shinigami in the manga and he did not really show many zampakuto techniques in spite of the fact that he was extremely proficient at kido. He simply did not have a zampakuto fit for technique development. Arroniero as kaien also mentioned that he helped rukia develop one of her techniques and rukia did say she developed a technique after kaien died (the third dance thing). I guess it comes down to there being two kinds of techniques when it comes to zampakuto. There are the inherent techniques to the zampakuto, the named ones that define most shinigami (say, getsuga tensho) and then there are techniques which are developed as a joint effort between shinigami and zampakuto and are overall new things to both of them.
    I love how those lucky guys always end up being strong. :c And those with less power are those unlucky. Aizen did have one technique, but the point was, he HAD a technique. Ikkaku's shikai can't hold a candle to Aizen's. Hiyori's as well. Lisa has a staff. No abilities there. They're just weapons. And Aizen has a ability that can MINDFUCK EVERYONE. In mere Shikai, that he could acquire as a kid. Shinji can make 99,999% (Aizen excluded) fighters shit their pants if he activates Shikai. Yamaji can kill anyone in Shikai. Kyoraku has games, that are effective against #1 Espada. (Btw, can you imagine Hitsugaya fighting Halibel in Shikai? He'd be owned). Ukitake can redirect any reiatsu-based attack with no effort, make it stronger and obliterate enemy with their own power. Soi-Fon can kill in 2 hits. Rojuro has tons of songs. Byakuya can actually do something with his blade. Komamura can have an arm of his bankai's giant for a while.

    As for Rukia and her techniques. It all comes down to a zanpakuto giving you technique's name, right? But her Zanpakuto still isn't that two-hand-something-that-can't-be-called-a-sword type, like Renji's, Hiyori's and Lisa's. Can you imagine techniques from THAT?

  3. #18
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Sakanade, Kyoka Suigetsu : bankai or shikai ?

    To be fair we don't really know if some of the people you mention have special techniques. As for people with melee type zampakuto the consideration we have to make is that they simply have to focus on a different field than people whose zampakuto have kido based abilities. Just look at unohana.... so far she is arguably the second or at worst third strongest shinigami out there and so far it does not seem like her zampakuto has any kido applications. Obviously not just anyone can be like unohana however based on what we have seen it is entirely possible for a shinigami to be that good and get good results from melee combat alone. Its a matter of them taking the time to be that good. Renji does not have any kido skills and so far it seems his bankais main point is to bite stuff (although he does have the cannon thing).... The comparison between aizen and ikkaku would be more relevant if they had the same power to begin with. I am of the idea that aizen's shikai was to begin with that effective because he was from the start that much stronger than the captains. I don't think an actual equal to him would be so unable to fight against the illusion. So in a fight between equals you would have KS, a powerful illusion, against ikkaku's spear or the trickiness of his other form...

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    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity danzouismadara's Avatar
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    Re: Sakanade, Kyoka Suigetsu : bankai or shikai ?

    the real question is what gives you the brilliant thought that it's a bankai in the 1st place


    Can someone message me an anime that's similar to d grayman or claymore or deathnote?

    Ive seen Deathnote, deadman wonderland, fairytale, shigurui, ao no exorcist, beelzebub, samurai champloo, code geass, devil may cry, Hakuouki, monster, blood plus, gantz. Basically, something with demons and gore.

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    Re: Sakanade, Kyoka Suigetsu : bankai or shikai ?

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    To be fair we don't really know if some of the people you mention have special techniques.
    Which one's? I remember seeing Komamura's shikai in anime and not in manga so I could be wrong there, but I don't think Shinji, Aizen, Shunsui, Ukitake, Soi-Fon and Byakuya don't have techniques in shikai.


    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    As for people with melee type zampakuto the consideration we have to make is that they simply have to focus on a different field than people whose zampakuto have kido based abilities. Just look at unohana.... so far she is arguably the second or at worst third strongest shinigami out there and so far it does not seem like her zampakuto has any kido applications.
    Who said that it has to be Kido-based? There are tons more of options. :P Yamaji's sword wasn't Kido-based I think. It was something similar, that worked on a similar basis. It took reiatsu and created abilities. We can take Yumichika and Ikkaku consideration. Ikkaku got trashed, Yumichika could kill his opponent in one technique, that totally sucked his reaitsu.

    http://www.mangareader.net/94-610-2/...apter-156.html

    And Hisagi, second seat, pretty strong guy, whose Zanpakuto is melee type ended up like that. So he was... too weak? Too slow? Who said Yumichika has to be weaker and slower because his zanpakuto is kido-based? He just has a HUGE headstart by having such zanpakuto. I never said people with melee type zanpakuto has to be weak. But I'm sure, that if we took two equals, one with Zanpakuto with abilities and one melee type, melee type would be at a huge disadvantage. Aizen, Shinji, Ukitake and Kyoraku have Shikais that easily can oppose bankais of G13 because of their abilities. Now that's what I call lucky.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    The comparison between aizen and ikkaku would be more relevant if they had the same power to begin with. I am of the idea that aizen's shikai was to begin with that effective because he was from the start that much stronger than the captains. I don't think an actual equal to him would be so unable to fight against the illusion. So in a fight between equals you would have KS, a powerful illusion, against ikkaku's spear or the trickiness of his other form...
    Aizen vs Yamaji. Yamaji was pretty much equal to Aizen, and exceled in physical strength. Could he fight illusion? Nope, he came up with stupid tactic to let Aizen cut him and check if he feels a blade in his gut. :v That's not my idea of dealing with illusion. Yamaji couldn't fight illusion and Aizen would be heavily wounded or dead if he took Yamaji's fire pillar technique. And with that, G13 would be left with 6-7 captains (if Vaizards came back), without CC and had entire G13 strength killed because they COULDN'T fight illusion.
    Last edited by Duniak; July 25, 2013 at 02:57 AM.

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