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How do you think Juha Bach gained his ability? Did the soul king create him? Why was quincy world sealed? What made juha bach become so ruthless. I think it's ironic that evil villains use holiness as they their sole motivation. Why attack shinigami so vehemently when the quincies original purpose was to destroy all hollows-which got them in trouble in the first place since they over did it and destroyed the balance. Gotei 13 were originally called the balancers. I think this might prove that the quincies came first and almost destroyed the world (balance) with their power and then the shinigami (balancers) came and balanced everything by killing the quincy. However, juha bach doesn't seem like the type of person who would let another race become strong enough to a point that they would be threatening. If the shinigami destroyed the quincy why are their so many survivors like masaki and ryuuken? This leads me to believe that their was faction of quincies that helped the shinigami take out juha bach--which is why the shinigami maybe gave them immunity. Anyways, what do you guys think? We got weeks to discuss ....
From what it sounds like, Divisions wasn't much different from Bach when it came to morals. I don't think these Quincy are "wicked". It's war, plain and simple. Both sides want to kill each other. The Shinigami simply didn't know the Vandenreich was around. Bach's evil, that's for certain, but in the grand scheme of things Shinigami and Quincy are enemies, as things are right now they just can't coexist.
Bach's methods are evil and cruel, but it's getting the job done so far. The thing that really make's him evil is his treatment of his own subordinates....I can't exactly say Soul Society is above slaughtering Quincy. There's something really fishy about Mayuri having to sacrifice those 20,000 souls too. If Quincy can't send souls to the afterlife, then why did their castle just take the place of the Seireitei.....we've only heard one side of this story. I think the Fullbring Arc was a subtle reminder that despite Soul Society teaming up with Ichigo, they were originally his enemy and they aren't always necessarily good. I have a feeling the real last battle will divide the Shinigami into those who side with Ichigo and those who side with the Soul King.
Last edited by exacta; July 20, 2013 at 01:00 PM.
But other than that, I raelly agree, the level of evil of the Quincy and Soul Society seems about the same.
Also as you said, the Quincy had the element of surprise by hiding, assumed exterminated, and not only 200 years ago Soul Society tried to kill every Quincy they could find.
Juha seems to be the real evil one, with some exceptions of some Sternritters who are evil as well, for example the little girl I forgot the name of that kills random subordinates out of pleasure, a bit like Mayuri actually, although it's more that he doesn't care.
Also Kubo gave us this hint before the first invasion;
Kajoumaru Hidetomo, 6th seat of 13th Devision seems to be of the opinion that both the Quincy and Shinigami are fighting for Justice, as you can see in his conclusion from his explanation.
In other words, unless Kubo wants to feed us with wrong information, it seems like the Quincy have a good reason to fight, and I'd really like to know that reason.
Perhaps the reason is part to blame why Juha became sinister, I agree Juha seems wicked as hell, and indeed the Quincy in general seems to be on the same level as Soul Society in being good/bad.
The Quincy population seems to have other reasons to fight than Juha has, and Juha seems to be using this as a primary motivation for many Quincies to fight Soul Society.
Also Juha is like a father figure I suppose, he's probably inside all the Quincies innerworld after all, it sorta helps boosting their loyalty to Juha I'd presume, it's really hard to defect from someone who is not only a father figure but all in all;
- Father figure, Innerworld Avatar similarity.
- Insane Strong, can't be reasoned with.
- Entitled to be Leader/King, he founded them all.
- Every Quincy seems to have a Justice reason to fight the Shinigami.
- Revenge for trying to exterminate them, the Quincy.
- To have the freedom to live without fear of the Shinigami trying to kill them.
I mean, that's some pretty good reasons to follow Juha into war against the Shinigami, and they can hardly make the typical Quincy evil, they're fighting for Justice as well as many other things it seems.
Juha probably has other/more reasons, and those reasons are likely evil, in contrary to the typical Quincy who might have reasons such as Justice, and being free to live as who they are.
In the end, Juha might be the actual reason the Shinigami couldn't reason with the Quincy in the first place, who knows?
Also the possibility that Ichigo will rule over not only the Shinigami after this war, but also the Quincy, he's part Noble Shinigami, and part Royal Quincy, well Royal since he's blood vice pretty close to Juha.
If anyone can bring peace between the Quincy and Shinigami, it'd be Ichigo, and I think one thing is for certain, the Quincy won't be exterminated in a Shounen manga like Bleach where hardly anyone dies in the first place.
I assume this means Ichigo will be a huge change, and turn Quincy/Shinigami into a new society, with a much greater justice system than before.
Last edited by Quantized; July 20, 2013 at 02:38 PM.
Well, vandenreich as a whole does seem more messed up than the shinigami and sereitei. Overall from what we have seen juhabach is essentially emulating the old gotei 13 to a great degree. Juhabach made the point that the old gotei 13 was made of bloodthirsty murderers and to a great degree it does seem like your average stern riter is pretty much that. Juhabach does not care about a single one of his subordinates, jugram would willingly do anything juhabach orders him, bazzbee is less than civilized, bambieta has no moral issues with pointless murder and even her female peers seemed to care more about the mess she made than about the fact that bambieta murdered someone to get off.
Shinigami are at large not saints and among them there are quite a few that are twisted but at large those that are twisted are far from the norm. And to be fair quite a few of the ones we saw as twisted were people dealing with the ryoka invasion more than anything so their actual willingness to kill is somewhat justified to a degree. So without those the actual amount of shinigami who are murderous reprobates comes down to 3. Kenpachi, unohana and mayuri. The rest of the captains are at large pretty reasonable dudes who care about others. And even among those 3 unohana did have a few redeeming features so its like there are 2.5 certifiably insane shinigami at large. Obviously that number is significantly better than vandenrech's headcount of murderous nutjobs (all).
Vandenreich is not just some organization that opposes the gotei 13 though, the issue at large is that they are apparently just a mediocre reason away from murdering each other and gladly at that. On the other hand with the gotei 13 what we have is that their 3 certifiable murderous nutjobs are not murdering their new boss who is either comparable to plain weaker than them in terms of power. heck, it does seem like a big reason for the stern riter to not murder each other is juhabach and his apparent promise to kill anyone who starts conflict within vandenreich. Of course if vandenreich is an organization full of murderous thugs it is precisely because juhabach wanted it that way. He even talked down to yamamoto for making the gotei 13 into not murderous bloodthirsty thugs.
Now, looking at things from a big picture point of view perhaps the case can be made that vandenreich is not entirely evil. Destroying the world can't be their objective because such a thing makes no sense. Destroying the world has to necessarily be a simple step towards their ultimate goal which will probably will be to start the world over as one they perceive as better. So as with aizen not necessarily a bad thing. But also in common with aizen's old plan the issue lies in the details. Aizen apparently wanted to make the world how it should be. Making the world into what it should be is not the problem. The problem is that doing that required the murder of 100000 people at a minimum. Juhabach is probably taking this a step further and making this into a grander goal however a grander goal would also happen to have a grander detail which makes him a world class asshole. If aizen was willing to murder to 100000 to become god and make the world as it should be, juhabach is more than perfectly willing to murder precisely everyone and start the world over with him as a god.
Which brings us back to the main issue. Was aizen's or juhabach's objective ultimately a bad thing in the grand scheme of things? No.... did the only plausible ways to achieve their goals make them assholes? Yes. I don't see what sort of perfect world would justify aizen murdering 100000 people. Juhabach in turn will end up killing millions if not billions for his goals. Does juhabach's goal justify the murder of that many people? Heck no. The answer can never be yes because the amount of people that will end up paying the price for the new world (everyone) will always be smaller than the amount of people who pay the price for the world to be as it is (28000 and that blood is on the quincy anyways). And even then, the gotei 13 have not shown to be the big assholes some people seem to believe they are. The chamber 46 has rarely been a negative force in the manga to begin with. Everything we saw during the SS arc was done specifically by aizen after all. Other than that they have generally been uninvolved... They are definitely not saints but still it is far preferable to have those 46 geezers making important calls than to have juhabach's absolute will be the only thing that matters(which incidentally is not bound to improve if the world is remade in his vision).
I think we need to be careful to draw too strong parallels between the Sternritters and the Quincy, it might be a requirement to be more than willing to kill to be a Sternritter for example, although that would give Uryuu some problems and high expectations to live up to.
It seems that the weaker Quincy are much less evil anyway, that's the impression I got from the little we know. So many Sternritters might be just that, picked not only for strength, but also for their will to kill without holding back.
But really when you get down to it, considering the fact that Soul Society is responsible for the Quincy extermination plan, I don't think we've had villains in Bleach who ever had a better reason to want to fight Soul Society. That's a pretty good reason right there.
I don't know if what askin did would be considered caring overall... As far as aizen, gin and tousen goes I kinda thought of them as a different party from SS. They were captains but they never were on the same side. Tousen actually wanted revenge on SS, aizen wanted to take it over and gin was friends only with matsumoto and no one else.
My point is not that the stern riter are evil though, my point is that they are twisted and don't seem to care about each other. As for hashwald, note that my point was that he would do anything juhabach ordered him to do which is not the same as being evil. I did mention mayuri, unohana and kenpachi are psychopaths however I also made the point they were not the norm and unohana did have redeeming features. As far as byakuya goes he was never truly a bad guy. He was simply conflicted on whether to respect the law or whether to safe his sister. From that point onward byakuya has been shown as a caring brother and captain who values his subordinates, the most extreme opposite from a stern riter.
The only instance in which the chamber 46 have actually been shown as assholes is during the vizard incident 112 years ago. Other than that they have been dead or did pretty much what they had to do with aizen. Other than that there is no cannon information on what they are like. And even then the chamber 46 were a billion years old, its not entirely fair to judge them just like that. As far as they were concerned the whole hollowification thing was dangerous, illegal and at the time they had every reason to believe urahara had done it on purpose. In fact, given the sheer amount of eyewitness accounts on aizen it would have been very stupid for them to act otherwise.
Although considering the leader of Vandenreich, then I'm really not surprised that some if not many of the Sternritters show to be brutal, and not caring when it comes to respecting other people and their lives.
Isn't this a quality Juha wants? I think it is, it'd make for a much better war machine.
But what about all the other Quincies? We have seen that there are many of them, really many. Argurably we don't know how many are Arranacars etc. however if we consider the possibility for a moment that there are many regular pureblood Quincies aside the Sternritters, then what about them? Are they also a bunch of psychopaths and sociopaths?
I mean, judging a whole system by its leaders is not exactly proof that the foot solsiders and middle range soldiers are all cruel and evil.
What I mean by all this is that Juha might have selected the particular useful Quincies in his Vandenreich, and we have seen how easily he killed both a Quincy and a Quincy Arrancar straight afterwards in some of the first chapters in Bleach where wee see Juha for the first time.
Isn't that indication that Juha only wants useful soldiers, and Juha doesn't exactly seem to want to create a nice society after all this, he said he wants peace, but under what circumstances? Brutal dictatorship? I think so.
If Juha's goal is brutal dictatorship, then he needs brutal middle leaders to command his armies (Like the Captains have Squads).
Only the leaders and strong fighters really needs to be brutal, after all, the that is a requirement to brutal dictatorship, the foot soldiers who are powerless compared to the stronger are not needed to be brutal.
So does Juha even care about his foot soldiers? I don't think he's really using a lot of energy on them other than normal foot soldier training, but those strong enough to be of worth to him, he might want to have brutal tendencies, for example he could make sure powerful Quincies are raised under curcumstances that are fitting to make a loyal but cruel Quincy warrior.
All this is just reflecting, but I don't think your typical Quincy is evil, it's more that it seems Juha soughts out those who are useful to him, and manipulates them, he has shown signs of brainwash techniques afterall.
But lets not judge a whole society by its leaders, especially not when its a dictatorship, and not a democracy with elected leaders, but a society where leaders are handpicked by a brutal dictator.
I would argue the situation with training foot soldier's is similar to that of the shinigami. The manga has suggested the following scenario:
1.- There is the shinigami academy
2.- Only those who have exceptional spirit energy get admitted.
3.- From those only the best graduate.
4.- From those who graduate only the most talented ones are admitted into the gotei 13.
5.- From those who are admitted into the gotei 13 only the exceptional ones even get shikai or get to become seated officers.
6.- Only the most talented and unique shinigami ever get bankai. Byakuya made the point that even within the noble houses, where everyone is above average, members acquire bankai only every few generations.
And with vandenreich the situation should be the same. The vast majority of quincy should be no assets to the war at all, they should be just regular folk as there are shinigami. I don't think juhabach can really afford to not train everyone as well as he can. He needs talent of the sort which comes from 1 our of thousands of people to form the stern riter so what he can't afford is to not give everyone the best training possible, just as is the case with shinigami.
I do wonder what the deal with the soldat is though..... IMO it is very strange that they would be able to topple the shinigami foot soldiers that easily.
As far as foot soldiers go the only references we have are those from when quilge invaded HM. They did seem quite fine with quilge killing arrancar for no reason and they seemed quite aware of the fact that quilge was not actually planning on recruiting anyone. And then we saw quilge himself killing his foot soldiers... Well, it is not really much to go on. As far as a comparison goes we have only seen shinigami when ordered to stop the ryoka which is not much.
I think the issue with the quincy society is the fact that the quincy at large do willingly follow juhabach. To what a degree can juhabach's assholeness be a secret to quincy? He killed those two arrancar in front of his stern riter and no one bat an eyelash, the stern riter are well aware that juhabach will kill them if there is any infighting, and it seems like killing underlings for no good reason is pretty much a given. Bambieta killed the poor sucker who just had sex with her just to get off and quilge was the one to actually finish off a few of his own men in HM. And of course there is the fact that her five cute friends did not react in a reasonable manner when they saw man guts on the floor(like, say, YOU BITCH! YOU ARE ARRESTED! and then proceed to throw her to the deepest darkest dampest prison for being a sociopath and a cold blooded murderer). As far as they were concerned what bambieta had was just a bad habit and nothing else.
You're making good points, and I also agree it being plausible.
It's just that it's a bit weird to judge a whole people because of the few mad people in a society, that makes everyone appear evil despite that there are few really evil ones.
Take Nazi Germany back in the days, if you did not accept the new society and rules, then you would not only loose status or anything of the luxery sorts, you and your family could potentially get into deep problems, especially if you protested against the system. It was all about keeping silent or get severely punished.
Then there were those who followed orders because that's how they survived, even if following orders meant to do evil things, they still followed orders as a means of survival, even if they could just be passive/silent instead.
I don't know if you have heard about this kind of research? It's like many, many humans tend to just do what authority tells them to do, especially in a dangerous environment such as Nazy Germany at the time, and they will do it without thinking too much about it.
Then there are the actual evil ones, those if you look back to Nazi Germany for example was the ones at the top controlling all those who were just following orders to survive.
If I understood history right, those who were the most brutal, evil and clever about being so were those who got promoted into high standing in the Nazi Germany.
The typical citizen would never be able to go against such a system without risking instantly getting killed, put in prison or worse, I mean it was a no tolerance society.
If Vandenreich is anything similar to that, then there might actually be quite a lot of good people in its society, but they're hard to see, exactly like Nazi Germany.
Many view Germans in bad light because of their past, but in reality it was only a few in Germany who made it evil, the rest had no choice if they wanted to survive themselves.
If the average German at the time had any fault, it was to allow Hitlers system to be realized in the first place, but once it was up and running and Hitler had his leaders in high standing places in the society, then it was too late, he had full control.
I tend to view Bach in a similar light as Hitler, he's holding a whole society in his hand who might not want to be evil, but the irony is that Bach might have used the same tactics to get his people on his side from the beginning, like for example Hitler made Germany rich instead of being poor after the crisis of WW1.
Many Germans were living a sucky life, and Hitlers promises to make Germany a better place allowed him the freedom to transform the society into an evil war machine.
Now Bach has far more personal power than Hitler did, but it could be he also used some of the same methods. For example the Shinigami tried to exterminate the Quincy once and for all 200 years ago, and who knows what happened a 1000 years ago, for all we know, perhaps the typical Quincy just wants the freedom to live without being hunted by the Shinigami, and the freedom to protect themselves against Hollows.
So similar to Hitler, the typical Quincy/German are not evil, far, far, far from it, but because of all this above, they can easily be seen as such.
It's those at the top of the system that are evil in these kind of societies imo.
Yet even so, there are some at power who uses it for good in such systems, for example this movie called Schindler's List, based on reality, it's one of the must see movies of all time, rated really high among the worlds best movies. It's really cruel, yet so full of hope, a German with middle range power stands up to protect as many Jews as he possibly can, it's really a touching movie that is a must see, and based on reality - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0108052/
My point being, it's not all black and white, good societies can have evil people among their leaders, and a bad society can have some few good leaders among their leaders.
But primarily what I want to point out is that I don't think that all Quincies are bad, especially not if you see Souken, Masaki and Uryuu. Ryuuken on the other hand is hard to read, he's hiding his ideals.
We can't judge a whole people by its leaders, and even more so when Kubo is trying to mirror the Vandenreich to the Nazi Germany without going too far.
I think there is a hint in that, how the Quincy will eventually turn out to be not evil, but bounded by an evil maniac of a leader.
That's just my opinion though, we're all free to believe what we want to believe, but even so, you also make good points that I can't deny.
---------- Post added at 07:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:06 PM ----------
I mean, it makes for a good Shounen strategy, Germany was seen as evil by many, but eventually more and more people understood that there was really no more evil people than any other Society, it was just that those who were evil were given control.
It's perfect for a Shounen like Bleach, it can make us all think that the Quincy are evil, yet eventually it'll soften up and we'll realize that they're not so bad after all.
After all, Shounen needs to stay a Shounen without becoming a Seinen manga, I think this is a strategy to try make the final Villains appear much worse than they actually are.
Last edited by Quantized; July 21, 2013 at 12:16 PM.
I think a big part of it is that the Quincy lost 1000 years ago. SS has been in a state of relative peace with the Gotei 13 watching over the world largely unchallenged. They got what they wanted, had time to grow complacent and nurture a way of life to protect. As far as they were concerned, their enemies were gone. There was still the uprising 200 years ago, but those were just some Quincy who disagreed with SS, not the Quincy of the Vandenreich who were legitimate opposition. Meanwhile, the 'true' Quincy have been dwelling in their palace, waiting for their fallen king to make his return while their enemies have enjoyed victory and peace elsewhere. In a sense, for SS the war was over, for the Quincy it never ended. Whilst Yama has had 1000 years to mellow, Yhwach spent most of that time kind of dead, and when he woke up I'm sure his only thoughts were of killing his enemies. He didn't have the time Yama did to grow soft, although he seems like such a mean bastard 1000 years wouldn't have changed him anyway. I think that on a personal level Yhwach is a more inherently evil man than Yamamoto. But anyway, whilst the Divisions' attitude changed, the Quincy stayed the same because it's never really been peacetime as far as they were concerned.
Look at how the Divisions were before. In Unohana's flashback, we saw the 11th Division slaughtering dissenters in Rukongai, and her coming along because she was up for a fight. It's not much different to Quilge killing his men for running away or Bambietta killing low ranking nobodies when she's in a mood. It seems to me that the Vandenreich are basically what the Divisions once were. I don't think they, as a whole, are any more or less evil than the G13, who even now have some murderous assholes in the bunch. Yhwach has demonstrated that he doesn't give a second thought to sacrificing his own if it means success, but he also said the very same was true of Yamamoto once upon a time.
And of course another thing is perspective. We don't know what the Quincy are working towards just yet, but they obviously think it's the right path. The Shinigami disagree. Shutara calls the Quincy "evil", Quilge calls the Shinigami "treacherous".
Last edited by NoOneInParticular; July 21, 2013 at 02:27 PM.
I think the Vandenreich are ultimately leaning more towards being bad guys than the shinigami are. Yhwach is one of the best examples of this, Yamamoto would never in his old age scare the shit out of and killi his subordinates for some slight mistake. Sure Yama had a temper and was feared, but it's not like his subordinates saw him as a god that would rip them into pieces just for saying something wrong. Then again those were Arrancar but still...my point is he's ultimately still the head villain, and the head has the most influence on the body if you know what I mean.
No, they didn't get too strong, simply put the quincy were constantly attacked by hollows in huge numbers due to their high spiritual awareness, naturally they wanted to fight back, however this nearly destroyed the world; the quincy were reasonable, they said they would focus all their training on defensive and restraining techniques to stall the hollows for long enough for the shinigami to arrive,
http://www.mangapanda.com/94-500-13/...hapter-46.html but this was not enough, the stakes were too big, the shinigami were too intolerant, inflexible. Simply put this is what made the quincy wicked:
He could have kept them alive in SS, could have made camps or isolated them from the hollows in some way but no they didn't, and if the shinigami knew that the vandenreich existed, they would have attacked with the intention of wiping them out first, the same as the vandenreich are doing, there can't really be any peace here, not for long anyways.
Mayuri even went to the trouble of wiping out 30,000 people (in unnecessarily painful ways because he said he likes women's screams) to destroy their soul like the quincy do to offset the balance the quincy had disrupted, he didn't inform soul society even though they said he would have received permission just because he didn't want to have to explain what happened if something went wrong, he has not changed in any way and expresses no regrets whatsoever.
Last edited by winterwyrm; July 27, 2013 at 03:03 AM.