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Thread: What made quincies so wicked?

  1. #16
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member NoOneInParticular's Avatar
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    Re: What made quincies so wicked?

    Quote Originally Posted by winterwyrm View Post
    No, they didn't get too strong, simply put the quincy were constantly attacked by hollows in huge numbers due to their high spiritual awareness, naturally they wanted to fight back, however this nearly destroyed the world; the quincy were reasonable, they said they would focus all their training on defensive and restraining techniques to stall the hollows for long enough for the shinigami to arrive,
    http://www.mangapanda.com/94-500-13/...hapter-46.html but this was not enough, the stakes were too big, the shinigami were too intolerant, inflexible. Simply put this is what made the quincy wicked:
    http://www.mangapanda.com/94-577-14/...apter-123.html
    He could have kept them alive in SS, could have made camps or isolated them from the hollows in some way but no they didn't, and if the shinigami knew that the vandenreich existed, they would have attacked with the intention of wiping them out first, the same as the vandenreich are doing, there can't really be any peace here, not for long anyways.

    Mayuri even went to the trouble of wiping out 30,000 people (in unnecessarily painful ways because he said he likes women's screams) to destroy their soul like the quincy do to offset the balance the quincy had disrupted, he didn't inform soul society even though they said he would have received permission just because he didn't want to have to explain what happened if something went wrong, he has not changed in any way and expresses no regrets whatsoever.
    But the fact that the Quincy seem to have their own version of a Soul Society would point to them being more than just humans who were plagued by Hollows. I'm sure that's actually true of the Quincy who lived on Earth 200 years ago, but going by the revelations of this arc, the Quincy look to be more than just humans who got into a misunderstanding with the Shinigami. They've been established as the opposing form of life - http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...9-page-14.html and are older than was first let on. Whilst what you wrote probably does apply to the common Quincy in the World of the Living not long ago, the 'true' Quincy, the originals and those who serve directly under Yhwach look to have greater intentions than simply protecting themselves.

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    Re: What made quincies so wicked?

    The shingami overreacted by killing all those quincies. Honestly do you expect somebody to lay down his powers that easily and see his loved oned killed simply because of the balance of the world? Bonds between family and loved ones are incredibly strong? Hollows are everywhere. Second of all by what right do the shinigami have the authority to kill hollow but other races not? They don't What if that kid

    They are nothing more then followers. Aizen was right. The shinigami don't stand up and fight to change this wicked world in which shinigami actually kill 20.000 rukongai citzens in hopes of upholding the goddamn balance. If the mechanics behind something are wrong then you don't just stand there and take it because it's like that. No you stand up and fight and try to change it. The so called balance of the world sacrfices indivudality and causes quite some pain and despair all into upholding the greater good. You kill of people who could have had the potenial to wonderfull things in thier life.

    Infact you shouldn't just accept everything because it's like that. Do we humans accept the whole survival of the fittest mentality now? No ofcourse not.

    I think that even if the quincies fuck up the balance they have a godamn right to protect themselves. They should work together to come to a fucking understanding. Heck I can already think of a better solution. The shinigami should have mated with the quincies creating shinigami quincy hybrids. Expanding thier army to the human world. Allowing quincy to have thier own ability but not fuck up thier balance. Seems like quite a collobaration to me while noticably increasing thier battle power as well.

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  4. #18
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member NoOneInParticular's Avatar
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    Re: What made quincies so wicked?

    ^To be fair, by upsetting the balance of souls, those Quincy were a threat to the Shinigami, all the souls of SS, themselves, and all of humanity. It's not like the Shinigami could have just let them be, or they'de be jeopardising far more lives than those of the Quincy they killed.

    Plus, according to this guy - http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...6-page-15.html - the Shinigami have tried negotiating more than once. Although Uryuu says Souken tried reaching out to the Shinigami in the time after the conflict. The details aren't clear by any means, but I think it's a matter of neither side backing down, given the history between them.

    Yhwach seems to have been actively trying to mess with the balance, but he wasn't around 200 years ago, so we don't know if those Quincy were trying to do what he's been doing, or just wanted to protect themselves. Yhwach has seemingly upset the balance with the effect of replacing Seretei with the Shatten Bereich. If the Quincy were trying to do something similar 200 years ago, then they were effectively launching hostilities on SS, and the Shinigami had a right to do something about it. If they were just trying to protect humanity, their method for doing so was in danger of wiping humanity out entirely, so the Shinigami were again right to do what they did.

    When it comes to taking lives, Yhwach has thousands of deaths on his hands now, and Aizen was going to wipe out 100,000 people in the name of his goals, so the Shinigami are far from the only guilty party here. Also, we don't know that Shinigami can mate with non-spiritual beings. Isshin was in a special Gigai that rendered him effectively half human. And even so, with the Quincy's emphasis on selective breeding, I find it hard to imagine they'd have gone for that.

  5. #19
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    Re: What made quincies so wicked?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoOneInParticular View Post
    ^To be fair, by upsetting the balance of souls, those Quincy were a threat to the Shinigami, all the souls of SS, themselves, and all of humanity. It's not like the Shinigami could have just let them be, or they'de be jeopardising far more lives than those of the Quincy they killed.
    So it's okay to wipe an entire race out? There is nothing fair about that. The shingami did what they have been advocating against the entire time. You don't kill an entire race when the balance of souls was appearantly nowhere near bieng broken down. The shinigami said themselves that it was thier job. They wanted to have monopoly on the whole hollow killing bussines. It doesn't change the fact that shinigami are simply accepting a flawed system rather then trying to change it like aizen did. You act as if the shinigami had simply had no choice. Heck they could have sealed thier powers or taken way or something else given thier massive kido arsenal.

    Quote Originally Posted by NoOneInParticular View Post
    Plus, according to this guy - http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...6-page-15.html - the Shinigami have tried negotiating more than once. Although Uryuu says Souken tried reaching out to the Shinigami in the time after the conflict. The details aren't clear by any means, but I think it's a matter of neither side backing down, given the history between them.

    And we know what the shinigami wanted. They didn't want to quincy to do anything as it's apereantly thier job. Even if soken offered to change thier teqniues waiting for the shingami to come. Ofcourse the quincy aren't to comply and just let thier loved ones die because of balance of souls? No way. It's a flawed system.

    Quote Originally Posted by NoOneInParticular View Post
    Yhwach seems to have been actively trying to mess with the balance, but he wasn't around 200 years ago, so we don't know if those Quincy were trying to do what he's been doing, or just wanted to protect themselves. Yhwach has seemingly upset the balance with the effect of replacing Seretei with the Shatten Bereich. If the Quincy were trying to do something similar 200 years ago, then they were effectively launching hostilities on SS, and the Shinigami had a right to do something about it. If they were just trying to protect humanity, their method for doing so was in danger of wiping humanity out entirely, so the Shinigami were again right to do what they did.
    Wouldn't you do that t if your entire race was wiped out by another race that continuos to uphold thier flawed system of maintaining the world's existence without trying anything to change thiers? Just because something is natural doesn't mean it's benificial to the mankind otherwise we'd not have hospitals because any sick person is teqnically not fit for survival and should infact die. Yamamoto slayed 20.000 rukongai citizens simply because of the system shinigami uphold. It's incredibly heartless to just demand others to not protect themselves because of the balance of souls. I would be pissed as well. We know what the shinigami wanted and that was to take care of the hollow slaying for themselves. They haven't made any concessions at all it was the quincy who did concession through souken ishida. We don't know what Juha Bach did 1000 years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by NoOneInParticular View Post
    When it comes to taking lives, Yhwach has thousands of deaths on his hands now, and Aizen was going to wipe out 100,000 people in the name of his goals, so the Shinigami are far from the only guilty party here. Also, we don't know that Shinigami can mate with non-spiritual beings. Isshin was in a special Gigai that rendered him effectively half human. And even so, with the Quincy's emphasis on selective breeding, I find it hard to imagine they'd have gone for that.
    Why do you think the quincy would do that? Maby because they were almost extinct by a certain race? If the quincy were allowed to live they might not have been forced to actually mate with thier own Cousins.

    Do you see what abonding ones individuality does for a general cause? The quality of life takes a deep drop.

    Do you call living in rukongai life? But nobody is doing something about it becuase it's supposed to be like that. Shinigami only care for upholding the balance. If an overpopulation of souls means killing of 20.000 citizens they also might be that cruel to let hollows devour souls to stop the exesive amounnt of souls that enters soul society.

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  7. #20
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member NoOneInParticular's Avatar
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    Re: What made quincies so wicked?

    I'm not saying the Shinigami are overseeing a perfect system, but the Quincy aren't the victims you're making them out to be. Well actually, we don't know that. We don't know what spurred the initial conflict 1000 years ago, Yhwach's intentions might actually have been noble. But it was a war. Yhwach and co. were, as far as we know, trying to do to the Shinigami exactly what the Shinigami ended up doing to them - wipe them out. They're on a mission to eradicate them right now.

    And anyway, wasn't the balance of souls actually dangerously close to being broken down, and that's why it came to blows? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly sure in the recounting of the battles 200 years ago, the Shinigami began by trying to reason with the Quincy, but attacked when there was no more time for attempts at diplomacy. Weeks of Vandenreich activity already had holes ripping through the World of the Living, as Hiyori saw, so you can imagine what things were like before the Shinigami attacked.

    When Uryuu's talking about the Shinigami wanting the monopoly, he's talking about more recently, when Souken was trying to appeal for cooperation. In that particular case, I agree, the Shinigami should have opened their ears and listened, but before, when you had legions of Quincy speeding the world towards destruction and refusing to listen to objections, what else were they going to do? Wait for the world to collapse and hope they're still alive to tell the Quincy "I told you so"? But since they knew of the existence of Souken, they were at least refraining from wiping the Quincy out entirely. That seems a deal more forgiving than Yhwach has been. Also, it's a bit presumptuous to say the Shinigami could have sealed their powers. If that were an option, surely they would have taken it and spared themselves an all out war, both then and now. The closest to any such thing is Szayel Aporro's lab, which is likely not something that can be used on the entire Earth, or Bankai theft, which is a recent innovation the Shinigami can't even wrap their heads around yet.

    You're making it sound like Quincy in general are victims. Some of them, like Souken were. He didn't deserve what Mayuri did, and I'm not in any way supporting those kinds of antics from SS. SS has always been a somewhat shady organisation, there's no denying it. But The Quincy aren't little lambs, they're warriors who have been at all out war with the Shinigami for aeons. In fact, according to their own King, the Gotei 13 softened whilst the Quincy have remained as brutal as before. Yhwach isn't an idiot, he knew SS would be forced to execute their own citizens as a result of the Hollows he had slain, but he did it. He's ordered the deaths of thousands and his soldiers have willingly complied, and it's not a matter of vengeance for what happened 200 years ago, these groups have been at it for 1000+ years.

    I'm just saying that both sides have blood on their hands. They've both willingly committed atrocities against one another, and whilst you say the Shinigami are vicious for wanting a monopoly on the afterlife, what makes you think the Quincy aren't after that very same thing and haven't been from the start?

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  9. #21
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member winterwyrm's Avatar
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    Re: What made quincies so wicked?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoOneInParticular View Post
    I'm not saying the Shinigami are overseeing a perfect system, but the Quincy aren't the victims you're making them out to be. Well actually, we don't know that. We don't know what spurred the initial conflict 1000 years ago, Yhwach's intentions might actually have been noble. But it was a war. Yhwach and co. were, as far as we know, trying to do to the Shinigami exactly what the Shinigami ended up doing to them - wipe them out. They're on a mission to eradicate them right now.

    And anyway, wasn't the balance of souls actually dangerously close to being broken down, and that's why it came to blows? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly sure in the recounting of the battles 200 years ago, the Shinigami began by trying to reason with the Quincy, but attacked when there was no more time for attempts at diplomacy. Weeks of Vandenreich activity already had holes ripping through the World of the Living, as Hiyori saw, so you can imagine what things were like before the Shinigami attacked.

    When Uryuu's talking about the Shinigami wanting the monopoly, he's talking about more recently, when Souken was trying to appeal for cooperation. In that particular case, I agree, the Shinigami should have opened their ears and listened, but before, when you had legions of Quincy speeding the world towards destruction and refusing to listen to objections, what else were they going to do? Wait for the world to collapse and hope they're still alive to tell the Quincy "I told you so"? But since they knew of the existence of Souken, they were at least refraining from wiping the Quincy out entirely. That seems a deal more forgiving than Yhwach has been. Also, it's a bit presumptuous to say the Shinigami could have sealed their powers. If that were an option, surely they would have taken it and spared themselves an all out war, both then and now. The closest to any such thing is Szayel Aporro's lab, which is likely not something that can be used on the entire Earth, or Bankai theft, which is a recent innovation the Shinigami can't even wrap their heads around yet.

    You're making it sound like Quincy in general are victims. Some of them, like Souken were. He didn't deserve what Mayuri did, and I'm not in any way supporting those kinds of antics from SS. SS has always been a somewhat shady organisation, there's no denying it. But The Quincy aren't little lambs, they're warriors who have been at all out war with the Shinigami for aeons. In fact, according to their own King, the Gotei 13 softened whilst the Quincy have remained as brutal as before. Yhwach isn't an idiot, he knew SS would be forced to execute their own citizens as a result of the Hollows he had slain, but he did it. He's ordered the deaths of thousands and his soldiers have willingly complied, and it's not a matter of vengeance for what happened 200 years ago, these groups have been at it for 1000+ years.

    I'm just saying that both sides have blood on their hands. They've both willingly committed atrocities against one another, and whilst you say the Shinigami are vicious for wanting a monopoly on the afterlife, what makes you think the Quincy aren't after that very same thing and haven't been from the start?
    Yes, that's the gyst of it, they said themselves that both sides are just in this war, but at the same time the shinigami are intolerant, xenophobic, oppressive and brutal (though they've gotten better since aizen wiped out their leaders) just look at how they treated rukia; but at the same time the vandenreich are probably not going to be much better, juha bach is a eugenic tyrant who seems to care nothing for losses in war, and who knows what his plan for maintaining the balance is, he may very well enslave some shinigami to kill hollows, or just destroy the balance, extinguishing all life itself. All people deserve better in this case, but instead both parties are fighting to wipe each other out blindly.

  10. #22
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: What made quincies so wicked?

    I would argue that in this particular situation it was the quincy who should have stepped down when it came to dealing with hollows and such. I don't see how shinigami can be in the wrong regarding the balance as a whole. True, the way they handled things was far from perfect and to be fair perfect is pretty damn impossible to acquire however given the nature of the balance of souls taking care of it has to take precedence over a few lives. True, a few human lives would be lost to hollows but the alternative would be to disrupt the balance which endangers everyone and everything.

    To me it seems like the quincy and shinigami are duking it out basically to decide the model of the afterlife. Shinigami have their balance and rebirth thing. Vandenreich in turn wants to destroy the world, we know that for a fact as even juhabach admitted. In this particular context juhabach's most likely objective is to rebuilt the world from scratch with a new system which fits his own views. I have made the point that shinigami represent an oriental view of the afterlife and vandenreich represent a western view of it so to speak so perhaps juhabach wants a world system more similar to traditional ideas of heaven. Now, there are two considerations to make here. The first is that juhabach's view of the afterlife is not necessarily better than what is going on right now. For all we know it is just different. The second thing to consider here is that the issue might not be in itself the flaws and benefits of alternate views of the afterlife but the implementation of a brand new system. Right now implementation of a new systems seems to invariably require the destruction of the balance of souls. The destruction of the balance of souls, the destruction of the world to start a new world. Are the costs of a new system worth it? Even if at some point in the past the world was controlled by quincy and the shinigami did exactly what the quincy are doing now it still does not justify the quincy destroying everything. Its not that their new system would be bad, its just that nothing justifies that many deaths. In a world that can't be perfect (I really doubt juhabach wants or can create a perfect system) loses are cut by protecting the balance and avoiding the millions of deaths that can result from a change.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member winterwyrm's Avatar
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    Re: What made quincies so wicked?

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    I would argue that in this particular situation it was the quincy who should have stepped down when it came to dealing with hollows and such. I don't see how shinigami can be in the wrong regarding the balance as a whole. True, the way they handled things was far from perfect and to be fair perfect is pretty damn impossible to acquire however given the nature of the balance of souls taking care of it has to take precedence over a few lives. True, a few human lives would be lost to hollows but the alternative would be to disrupt the balance which endangers everyone and everything.

    To me it seems like the quincy and shinigami are duking it out basically to decide the model of the afterlife. Shinigami have their balance and rebirth thing. Vandenreich in turn wants to destroy the world, we know that for a fact as even juhabach admitted. In this particular context juhabach's most likely objective is to rebuilt the world from scratch with a new system which fits his own views. I have made the point that shinigami represent an oriental view of the afterlife and vandenreich represent a western view of it so to speak so perhaps juhabach wants a world system more similar to traditional ideas of heaven. Now, there are two considerations to make here. The first is that juhabach's view of the afterlife is not necessarily better than what is going on right now. For all we know it is just different. The second thing to consider here is that the issue might not be in itself the flaws and benefits of alternate views of the afterlife but the implementation of a brand new system. Right now implementation of a new systems seems to invariably require the destruction of the balance of souls. The destruction of the balance of souls, the destruction of the world to start a new world. Are the costs of a new system worth it? Even if at some point in the past the world was controlled by quincy and the shinigami did exactly what the quincy are doing now it still does not justify the quincy destroying everything. Its not that their new system would be bad, its just that nothing justifies that many deaths. In a world that can't be perfect (I really doubt juhabach wants or can create a perfect system) loses are cut by protecting the balance and avoiding the millions of deaths that can result from a change.
    When you say "stepped down" you make it sound like they could just stop, the quincy are born with soul awareness, which makes their souls tasty to hollows which seek them out in huge numbers, they never hunted hollows, the hollows attacked them. You're viewing things from a global perspective, yes what you're saying is true, but to look at things from the quincy's perspective the only way to "step down" would be to literally commit suicide, in addition they are hunted to oblivion by the shinigami regardless.

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  13. #24
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Sanadan's Avatar
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    Re: What made quincies so wicked?

    The Quincys recently were not hunted by the Shinigami. Why would Uryuu be mad at the shinigami for not helping and why leave a well known Quincy live after he helped invade SS?
    Anyho, it is true they can't step down, they are pulled into the scope of things despite their own ambitions.
    Meh

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member winterwyrm's Avatar
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    Re: What made quincies so wicked?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanadan View Post
    The Quincys recently were not hunted by the Shinigami. Why would Uryuu be mad at the shinigami for not helping and why leave a well known Quincy live after he helped invade SS?
    Anyho, it is true they can't step down, they are pulled into the scope of things despite their own ambitions.
    Yes, they were hunted recently:
    http://www.mangapanda.com/94-577-15/...apter-123.html
    check the bottom right panel, the only reason uryuu and his father were not hunted was because the shinis didn't know about them. He then put bacteria in uryuu and tracked him:
    http://www.mangapanda.com/94-757-14/...apter-303.html
    probably to kill him eventually:
    http://www.mangapanda.com/94-580-7/b...apter-126.html
    Uryuu joining the vandenreich is not unreasonable when you consider these things, even though bach had his mother killed, the circumstances may make him look past that, they're that extreme, if he really is loyal to the vandenreich, that is.

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    Re: What made quincies so wicked?

    i dont believe they are wicked at all

    i believe quincies are wrong, because their method of dispatching hollows leaves a imbalance of souls

    however their intentions are good, they felt like the shinigamis werent handling their business, and they used their own skills to both handle the hollow problem and make a living

    now juha him self seems to be extremely bitter and perhaps somewhat evil (not really evil though...)

    but the rest of the quincies..... dont seem very different from the shinigamis honestly

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    Re: What made quincies so wicked?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kisame Hoshigaki View Post
    i dont believe they are wicked at all

    i believe quincies are wrong, because their method of dispatching hollows leaves a imbalance of souls

    however their intentions are good, they felt like the shinigamis werent handling their business, and they used their own skills to both handle the hollow problem and make a living

    now juha him self seems to be extremely bitter and perhaps somewhat evil (not really evil though...)

    but the rest of the quincies..... dont seem very different from the shinigamis honestly
    he seems pretty evil if he wants to end the world and destroy dimensions lol


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    Re: What made quincies so wicked?

    Quote Originally Posted by danzouismadara View Post
    he seems pretty evil if he wants to end the world and destroy dimensions lol
    ok you got me there

    but that doesnt mean all of the quincies below him are evil

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    Re: What made quincies so wicked?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kisame Hoshigaki View Post
    ok you got me there

    but that doesnt mean all of the quincies below him are evil
    Maybe Haschwald isn't all bad, but I don't think you can argue that the terrifying As Nodt, dominatrix Bambietta, belligerent Bazzby, murderous Opie or the two SRs Bach slaughtered early on were people with redeeming characteristics. And these were most of the ones we were introduced to in any depth. So far, the SRs seem to be like the murderous thugs that Bach said the Gotei 13 used to be like. Maybe they're not all evil, but neither are the shinigamis. I think that both sides have a number of 'murderous' and 'creepy' types on them. I am curious about the mixed messages we're getting about both sides, and about what will be revealed about the wars in the past.

    Man, six weeks is a REALLY long time to be left hanging. I hope Kubo makes the wait worthwhile by delivering a hard hitting chapter to start us off again!

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member winterwyrm's Avatar
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    Re: What made quincies so wicked?

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird0ne View Post
    Maybe Haschwald isn't all bad, but I don't think you can argue that the terrifying As Nodt, dominatrix Bambietta, belligerent Bazzby, murderous Opie or the two SRs Bach slaughtered early on were people with redeeming characteristics. And these were most of the ones we were introduced to in any depth. So far, the SRs seem to be like the murderous thugs that Bach said the Gotei 13 used to be like. Maybe they're not all evil, but neither are the shinigamis. I think that both sides have a number of 'murderous' and 'creepy' types on them. I am curious about the mixed messages we're getting about both sides, and about what will be revealed about the wars in the past.

    Man, six weeks is a REALLY long time to be left hanging. I hope Kubo makes the wait worthwhile by delivering a hard hitting chapter to start us off again!
    Not true, I read through Bach's wiki just now, and nowhere has he stated that he wants to upset the balance and destroy everything, he may very well occupy soul society and use occupied shinigami to kill hollows, he never said he wants to wipe them out, only to kill the soul king and "conquer soul society". We don't know what their full plans are after they defeat SS, but I can't imagine they want to destroy the worlds, since that would destroy them as well.

    Moreover those two "SRs he killed" were arrancar conscripted from Hueco mundo, they were not quincy or SRs, though yes Bach was merciless for killing one for questioning him and the other for not being useful anymore, that was just because he hates hollows due to them killing his people in the past and forcing them into this situation due to consuming human souls, ruthless but understandable. As nodt is just a soldier, he has not been shown to be a bad person despite being "terrifying" due to his powers, bambietta did murder that one man making her evil, but buzzbee is just a punk, hard to get along with on a personal level but hardly "belligerent" and opie was ruthless towards hollows but offered mercy to everyone else, and recruited the strongest ones.

    Yes, it's the last arc, hopefully Kubo has a lot he has been saving up and will just let loose this time.

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