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Thread: Seawater/seastone/Yami Yami no Mi/Haki vs. Luffy

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    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner GumGumRep's Avatar
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    Seawater/seastone/Yami Yami no Mi/Haki vs. Luffy

    I've recently been thinking about how all this "removing or inhibiting DF powers" stuff really works, but I've been a bit stumped when it comes to Luffy and the four currently known methods of bypassing a DF power. Is this a correct understanding of how each of them affects Luffy:

    Seawater: drains his physical strength, but otherwise changes nothing. Ergo, if someone punches Luffy while he's submerged in the sea he still wouldn't take damage from it, since he remains rubber.

    Seastone: I initially figured that it does the same as seawater. But is that really true? When Smoker hit Luffy with the tip of his jutte in the war it seemed to do legit damage, as if it bypassed his blunt force resistance, just like Haki. So either seastone does more than seawater, or seawater also "bypasses" his rubberness... but it doesn't, because his body stretched underwater as far back as the Arlong Park arc.

    YYnM: sucks away his power entirely, making him not-rubber. It's that simple?

    Haki: hits his "real" body "beneath" the rubberness, but the damage does not spread throughout his whole body; when one of the Boa sisters held Luffy and slammed him on his head it did not damage him, but the grip itself was hurting him because her CoA-infused tail was physically connecting with those parts of his body.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member GomuGomu_Getsuga's Avatar
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    Re: Seawater/seastone/Yami Yami no Mi/Haki vs. Luffy

    I think you are pretty correct in your post.

    Seawater: We've seen Luffy stretching while his body was in water during the Arlong arc so seawater does drain his strength but doesn't make him "human." I'm not sure if he cam take physical damage though. What if Ace or Enel were to be in seawater? Would they still be made of fire and lightning? Could they be hurt by blows?

    Seastone: It is the physical version of Seawater so it makes sense that devil fruit users can take damage from it. We haven't seen Luffy stretch before being tied or caught by Seastone so I don't know if he is still rubber when caught. If he were to stretch his limbs and then get caught I think he would still be stretched out.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member hoeru's Avatar
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    Re: Seawater/seastone/Yami Yami no Mi/Haki vs. Luffy

    Quote Originally Posted by GumGumRep View Post
    I've recently been thinking about how all this "removing or inhibiting DF powers" stuff really works, but I've been a bit stumped when it comes to Luffy and the four currently known methods of bypassing a DF power. Is this a correct understanding of how each of them affects Luffy:

    Seawater: drains his physical strength, but otherwise changes nothing. Ergo, if someone punches Luffy while he's submerged in the sea he still wouldn't take damage from it, since he remains rubber.

    Seastone: I initially figured that it does the same as seawater. But is that really true? When Smoker hit Luffy with the tip of his jutte in the war it seemed to do legit damage, as if it bypassed his blunt force resistance, just like Haki. So either seastone does more than seawater, or seawater also "bypasses" his rubberness... but it doesn't, because his body stretched underwater as far back as the Arlong Park arc.

    YYnM: sucks away his power entirely, making him not-rubber. It's that simple?

    Haki: hits his "real" body "beneath" the rubberness, but the damage does not spread throughout his whole body; when one of the Boa sisters held Luffy and slammed him on his head it did not damage him, but the grip itself was hurting him because her CoA-infused tail was physically connecting with those parts of his body.
    All correct but one thing: Luffy isn't completely invulnerable to any blunt force. The fight between Luffy and Enel shows that when he was hit by Enel's bo in chapter 280 for example. He already had scratches, but the hit from the staff made his face all bloody. So Smoker hit most likely simply him as hard as Enel.

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    Re: Seawater/seastone/Yami Yami no Mi/Haki vs. Luffy

    Quote Originally Posted by hoeru View Post
    All correct but one thing: Luffy isn't completely invulnerable to any blunt force. The fight between Luffy and Enel shows that when he was hit by Enel's bo in chapter 280 for example. He already had scratches, but the hit from the staff made his face all bloody. So Smoker hit most likely simply him as hard as Enel.
    I've always wondered about that. How does it work? Is there a limit to how much blunt force Luffy can take at one time before it hurts him? Basically, if you punch him hard enough, it'll hurt him?

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Fox666's Avatar
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    Re: Seawater/seastone/Yami Yami no Mi/Haki vs. Luffy

    That's a possible, Enel attacks should work the same way as Kizaru kicks, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by GumGumRep View Post
    YYnM: sucks away his power entirely, making him not-rubber. It's that simple?
    That seems to be the case. Blackbeard explained two abilities to Ace, one is that he can suck the "real body" of an ability user (which seems to be only related to Logias), and another that sucks the "devil's power" which an user can no longer use his ability.

    Looking at this page, it seems the smoke vanished from Luffy's body for a moment, meaning that Blackbeard turned it off?
    Spoiler show

    Also Blackbeard hurt luffy not with a punch, but by throwing him on the floor. If anyone was wondering what's the advantages of this over Haki...
    Last edited by Fox666; July 20, 2013 at 06:05 PM.
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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member hoeru's Avatar
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    Re: Seawater/seastone/Yami Yami no Mi/Haki vs. Luffy

    Quote Originally Posted by GumGumRep View Post
    I've always wondered about that. How does it work? Is there a limit to how much blunt force Luffy can take at one time before it hurts him? Basically, if you punch him hard enough, it'll hurt him?
    Yes, exactly as rubber does have a limit to absorb energy. Oda said something about a limit of how much Luffy is able to stretch his limbs.

    So basically, if Hody had hit his head hard enough, Luffy would have been decapitated for real.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox666 View Post
    Also Blackbeard hurt luffy not with a punch, but by throwing him on the floor. If anyone was wondering what's the advantages of this over Haki...
    Isn't that just the same ability that made Blackbeard pull and touch Ace as declared in Chapter 441?

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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member David Rose's Avatar
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    Re: Seawater/seastone/Yami Yami no Mi/Haki vs. Luffy

    Kinda funny, since bullets "should" have a much stronger impact as a normal punch. Yet a punch that is strong enough could hurt him, but not a bullet? :P
    Well i know it's not like that, even Luccy's Shigan was much stronger than any bullet.

    I think the explanation would be that his organs are not as flexible as his limbs, so the stronger the impact the harder it becomes for Luffy, to take the hit. Also there is a fifth way to negate the effect of Luffy's DF: Bring a sword. :P
    Even if it's kinda obvious it should also be one of the above points, even if it works against other DF users and even normal people aswell.

    To the Logia question: I think it depends on the element if a user is able to maintain his elemental state. It should be impossible for Ace, his flames would simply be extinguished. But Akainu could be able to at least maintain a few seconds, since his magma is much hotter, and it solidifies on the outside, while it still can be fluid on the outside.
    Aokiji could freeze himself in his own ice and float to the surface, while Smoker and Enel both control elements that aren't directly affected by water. Smoke rises to the surface and theoretically Enel could move thorugh water like through gold.

    I guess it comes down to the element and you have to have at least the power of an admiral to pull it off. Except for Aokiji. He is pretty boss when it comes to water. Luffy was able to stretch for a few seconds, so it should be theoretically possible, even for a logia, even if it's just for a few seconds.


    As far as we know, BB can simply steal, or negate the effect of any DF if he's able to touch the user. As long as he maintains the grip Luffy isn't able to stretch, or rather become rubber. That would be the reason why BB slammed him to the ground, since he has to touch Luffy to whole time to hurt him.

    When it comes to the seastones i think the user simply isn't able to willingly use his powers, like in seawater, but he it's possible to resist the effect if you are strong enough. It doesn't completely negate the effect of a DF and Luffy could still remain stretched, but simply not move.

    >>David rose to beat the Philistines, with five smooth stones and a sling.<<

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Schabrak's Avatar
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    Re: Seawater/seastone/Yami Yami no Mi/Haki vs. Luffy

    How exactly does a sword negate his ability? All it does would cut him up like any other sharp/spiky weapon, if Öuffy only didn't have CoA to ensure that he won't, as shown by the Funk Brothers in this/last weeks chapter. If anything has happend, it was Luffy getting more resilient against those very attacks.
    Last edited by Schabrak; July 22, 2013 at 10:32 AM.
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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member David Rose's Avatar
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    Re: Seawater/seastone/Yami Yami no Mi/Haki vs. Luffy

    I guess the same way as water cancels out Crocos sand ability. Normally sand just becomes wet, but he simply looeses his ability. In way this is the same as Luffy beeing cut up by a blade. It's the most natural counter to his ability. Like bullets for Buggy. Even if they are useful aginst other opponents aswell.

    >>David rose to beat the Philistines, with five smooth stones and a sling.<<

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member hoeru's Avatar
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    Re: Seawater/seastone/Yami Yami no Mi/Haki vs. Luffy

    Quote Originally Posted by David Rose View Post
    I guess the same way as water cancels out Crocos sand ability. Normally sand just becomes wet, but he simply looeses his ability. In way this is the same as Luffy beeing cut up by a blade. It's the most natural counter to his ability. Like bullets for Buggy. Even if they are useful aginst other opponents aswell.
    Wet sand clumps together, that's why Crocodile cannot dissolve anymore. Luffy isn't weaker to blades nor is Buggy weaker to bullets than any other human being that doesn't have a DF ability, so none of them are a "natural counter to his ability". They're just a way of being able to hit them, as they're paramecia users and posess only one ability.

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    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner GumGumRep's Avatar
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    Re: Seawater/seastone/Yami Yami no Mi/Haki vs. Luffy

    Regarding seastone, I was thinking that it only inhibits your power - that is, you can't actively use it, but if your power is one that changes your real body permanently then you still retain that (Luffy, Brook). But that seems to run contrary to Smoker striking Luffy and him actually getting hurt.

    So basically, the questions are:
    - does seawater allow someone to strike Luffy as if he's not rubber at all?
    - does seastone do the above, or does it merely stop Luffy from actively using his power?

    It seems kind of weird to me that they would have different effects, since seastone is supposed to "exude the same energy as the sea" or something like that. But maybe it affects DF users more heavily because it's a more concentrated form of "sea energy"?

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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member David Rose's Avatar
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    Re: Seawater/seastone/Yami Yami no Mi/Haki vs. Luffy

    Quote Originally Posted by hoeru View Post
    They're just a way of being able to hit them, as they're paramecia users and posess only one ability.
    I hope you realise that this is the definition of a direct counter. :P

    Just because a blade or a bullet are good against any normal human doesn't mean it can't be a direct counter to someone who would otherwise be able to negate attacks with his powers. And it doesn't mean there only has to be one specific counter.

    Also the water directly negated Crocos DF, since he wasn't wet beforehand, but was hit with Luffy's fist, which had blood on it. For sand to clump together the water has to get soaked in first, which also needs considerable amounts of time, much longer than a regular punch. We shouldn't overcomplicate things, but rather accept that there are direct counters to certain abilities which can directly bypass it.

    >>David rose to beat the Philistines, with five smooth stones and a sling.<<

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member GomuGomu_Getsuga's Avatar
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    Re: Seawater/seastone/Yami Yami no Mi/Haki vs. Luffy

    Quote Originally Posted by GumGumRep View Post
    I've always wondered about that. How does it work? Is there a limit to how much blunt force Luffy can take at one time before it hurts him? Basically, if you punch him hard enough, it'll hurt him?
    I'm not sure if there is a limit. Remember Thriller Bark? So far we haven't seen a character with raw physical strength that matches what Shadow Asgard Moria could do. Luffy took some major punishment from Moria and bounced back as if it were nothing. I think certain attacks can leave scratches and dirt on Luffy but not any real damage.

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Seawater/seastone/Yami Yami no Mi/Haki vs. Luffy

    I think sea stone should make luffy not be made out of rubber overall. Otherwise he could just remove the cuffs or ace would not have lost his intangibility. So technically it should be more effective than water alone.

    I don't think there is a real body beneath the rubberness. Even with logia it seems like hitting any part of the element they control can result in a real hit to the body as seen with ceasar clown. I think it is simply a matter of haki allowing contact while not removing abilities.

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    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner GumGumRep's Avatar
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    Re: Seawater/seastone/Yami Yami no Mi/Haki vs. Luffy

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    I think sea stone should make luffy not be made out of rubber overall. Otherwise he could just remove the cuffs or ace would not have lost his intangibility. So technically it should be more effective than water alone.
    Yes, but I'm saying perhaps users whose bodies are permanently altered still stay like that, but people like Ace whose bodies can change at will do not keep their power.

    Also, I believe they use seastone in Impel Down, and Buggy was able to use his power.

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