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Thread: Influences on Zanpakutou: Ichigo/Isshin and Matsumoto/Gin

  1. #1
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Lee.J.Baxter's Avatar
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    Influences on Zanpakutou: Ichigo/Isshin and Matsumoto/Gin

    Hi folks, I was watching episode 307 of Bleach (dubbed) where Gin turns on Aizen, and a thought occurred to me; the whole thing with Gin's Zanpakutou turning into dust kinda reminds me of Matsumoto's ability to turn her Zanpakutou into ash!

    So I had this crazy theory.....can one Zanpakutou influence another???

    Now, we know that a Zanpakutou is basically a reflection of the Shinigami's soul, but I believe that there may be an explanation as to how one Zanpakutou can possess similar abilities to another...

    The first theory relates to Ichigo and Isshin; simply put, they're flesh & blood. Sure, Kaien is also related to Isshin, but they're not as closely related as father & son. Basically, I'm connecting similar Zanpakutou to similar DNA.

    The second theory is a bit more complex, and relates to Matsumoto and Gin, and possibly Ichigo and Isshin too. The basis for this theory is the closeness of 2 individuals in terms of friendship. Have you ever been close to someone and found that their personality has rubbed off on you? Well, we know that Zanpakutou are influenced by their owners personalities, so in theory if 2 friends start to become alike, so will their Zanpakutou. In the case of Ichigo and Isshin, "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree", which may also explain their similar Zanpakutou.

    So, what do you folks reckon?
    Predictions
    • Just as Quincies are evolved beings born from Humans, Shinigami are evolved beings born from Hollows.
    • Once Yhwach dies, Ichigo's Quincy powers will disappear and his soul will become unstable, causing the onset of Soul Suicide.
    • Yhwach isn't going to be the final antagonist.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member DarkBankai's Avatar
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    Re: Influences on Zanpakutou: Ichigo/Isshin and Matsumoto/Gin

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee.J.Baxter View Post
    Hi folks, I was watching episode 307 of Bleach (dubbed) where Gin turns on Aizen, and a thought occurred to me; the whole thing with Gin's Zanpakutou turning into dust kinda reminds me of Matsumoto's ability to turn her Zanpakutou into ash!

    So I had this crazy theory.....can one Zanpakutou influence another???

    Now, we know that a Zanpakutou is basically a reflection of the Shinigami's soul, but I believe that there may be an explanation as to how one Zanpakutou can possess similar abilities to another...

    The first theory relates to Ichigo and Isshin; simply put, they're flesh & blood. Sure, Kaien is also related to Isshin, but they're not as closely related as father & son. Basically, I'm connecting similar Zanpakutou to similar DNA.

    The second theory is a bit more complex, and relates to Matsumoto and Gin, and possibly Ichigo and Isshin too. The basis for this theory is the closeness of 2 individuals in terms of friendship. Have you ever been close to someone and found that their personality has rubbed off on you? Well, we know that Zanpakutou are influenced by their owners personalities, so in theory if 2 friends start to become alike, so will their Zanpakutou. In the case of Ichigo and Isshin, "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree", which may also explain their similar Zanpakutou.

    So, what do you folks reckon?
    I thought matsumotos zanpaktou kinda sucked. - but then its weakness is her weakness. her lazy attitude is like a breeze not a tornado. but then there is no need for her to be a strong character in the manga. If I had her zanpaktou, it would be much stronger. - choking people out. razor wind to strip the flesh from bones. even electricity would be possible by generating static charge. but she does nothing. her powers are like an annoyance, and usually not very creative.


    as for gin, his zanpaktou, is lethal, fast striking and like a snake. i think that fits his personality well.

    as for one affecting the other, sure I guess it is possible, but I feel it would influence how the zanpaktou are used, not the type that they have.
    the connection of type might be as related as two people having blue eyes. both have blue eyes due to genetics, just like all blond people come from the same ancestors, I just dont see concrete evidence that gins zanpaktou has shaped matsumotos.

    but the inspiration factor, - that clearly affects everyone. ichigo inspired renji. gin could have inspired matsumoto. we know for sure that her ordeal inspired gin, so in a round about way it does have an effect. just not directly.

    Imho.


    Be proud, that after receiving my blade you still retain the shape of a human.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Quantized's Avatar
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    Re: Influences on Zanpakutou: Ichigo/Isshin and Matsumoto/Gin

    It's certainly is an interesting observation, and it also reminds me of age old theories, (like ancient old SS arc periods of time) where the idea was that there was no DNA or anything related, but the personality of the person made up the entire depths of the type and design of the techniques, and that the Zanpaktou itself came from the Shinigami itself, and wasn't made through an Asauchi... This topic really takes me back many, many years

    But combining DNA and environment influence is quite an interesting take on it, it seems realistic too.
    Also the Gin / Matsumoto observation is quite interesting to say the least.
    I wonder if it was a design by Kubo intented or whether it was accidently made so that their powers had some similarities.
    It almost seems to be designed by intention, given all the other symbolisms Kubo is using in his manga, so are there really more to it than that?

    So for the sake of argument, the questions again;
    • Is it only a symbolism?
    • Was it unintentional by Kubo?
    • Is there an actual influence from the environment?

    I'm kinda split about this, I don't think it can be proven at least, and it seems like we can only speculate whether the environement has an influence on the Zanpaktou abilities.
    My personal opinion, as in guessing, would be that the environment might have an influence, but only at a very, very young age when the powers hasn't matured to the point of being useable yet.
    So perhaps the environment can affect the Zanpaktou abilities to some degree while a child is still in the 1-8 years of age?
    Perhaps it stops at the time a child reaches the age of 5-6 years of age, at the time where they become much more selfaware.
    It'd be weird if abilities changed even slightly after someone got access to their Zanpaktou though.

    Perhaps it works entirely different, like it can't change once it's been changed once, but under the circumstances that every child is like a clean slate where the first environment impressions makes the first and only changes to the inherited powers through DNA/family.

    It's a puzzling topic, I gotta admit I'm curious about it.

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    Re: Influences on Zanpakutou: Ichigo/Isshin and Matsumoto/Gin

    Firstly, Isshin's and Ichigo's Zanpakutos are not really similar. Fire-based, lots of techniques, even with use of blood, Getsuga Tenshou, that looks like fire attack, release command, and NOT in constant Shikai. Hell, Ichigo's Zanpakuto isn't even ZANPAKUTO. Normal Zanpakuto can go back to Shikai. Normal Zanpakuto is from Asauchi. Normal Zanpakuto is made from shinigami's powers, Ichigo's is Hollow that fused with Shinigami. Both Zanpakutos have Getsuga Tenshou. Isshin can't use his bankai while being injured (puts strain on his body). Ichigo's Zanpakuto was Quincy manifestation and imitation of his powers. Shikai isn't normal Shikai, Bankai just boosts his speed and strength, he's clad in reiatsu (why the basis sounds like Vollstandig? It sure didn't look like it).

    But we'll see about that soon. When... (how do we call Juha/Zangestu now? xd I'll go with Old Man) Old Man gave Ichigo Zanpakuto and stepped back it was clad in fire, at least it looked like it. It was chaotic and dynamic. Then we'll see if those Zanpakutos will be similar.

    I think one person can influence another, he can change someone. Unohana changed herself. But from psychological point of view, people don't change easily. The very core of our personality stays the same and it's VERY hard to change it. It's almost impossible, as it was built by years of experience. If someone can change it'd be a 4 year old kid, so I think the more Zanpakuto was used and with Shinigami, the more it'd be impossible to change it.

    I don't think Gin and Matsumoto have similar abilities. The only similarity is "dust". But Gin's "dust" is actually invisible and is made out of deadly poison, that can one-shot ANYONE. Matsumoto can cut anything that is in her visible dust. Haineko and Shinsou don't realy seem similar in terms of ability. It all resembles person's personality and that's all.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Quantized's Avatar
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    Re: Influences on Zanpakutou: Ichigo/Isshin and Matsumoto/Gin

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Firstly, Isshin's and Ichigo's Zanpakutos are not really similar. Fire-based, lots of techniques, even with use of blood, Getsuga Tenshou, that looks like fire attack, release command, and NOT in constant Shikai. Hell, Ichigo's Zanpakuto isn't even ZANPAKUTO. Normal Zanpakuto can go back to Shikai. Normal Zanpakuto is from Asauchi. Normal Zanpakuto is made from shinigami's powers, Ichigo's is Hollow that fused with Shinigami. Both Zanpakutos have Getsuga Tenshou. Isshin can't use his bankai while being injured (puts strain on his body). Ichigo's Zanpakuto was Quincy manifestation and imitation of his powers. Shikai isn't normal Shikai, Bankai just boosts his speed and strength, he's clad in reiatsu (why the basis sounds like Vollstandig? It sure didn't look like it).

    But we'll see about that soon. When... (how do we call Juha/Zangestu now? xd I'll go with Old Man) Old Man gave Ichigo Zanpakuto and stepped back it was clad in fire, at least it looked like it. It was chaotic and dynamic. Then we'll see if those Zanpakutos will be similar.

    I think one person can influence another, he can change someone. Unohana changed herself. But from psychological point of view, people don't change easily. The very core of our personality stays the same and it's VERY hard to change it. It's almost impossible, as it was built by years of experience. If someone can change it'd be a 4 year old kid, so I think the more Zanpakuto was used and with Shinigami, the more it'd be impossible to change it.

    I don't think Gin and Matsumoto have similar abilities. The only similarity is "dust". But Gin's "dust" is actually invisible and is made out of deadly poison, that can one-shot ANYONE. Matsumoto can cut anything that is in her visible dust. Haineko and Shinsou don't realy seem similar in terms of ability. It all resembles person's personality and that's all.
    Well there may be more to it, you have Isshin saying Getsuga Tenshou for example, that's pretty darn similar to Ichigo's, especially when you consider that innerworld Juha taught him that techniuqe, and it certainly does not seem to be Quincy related when his father uses a technique similar by the same name.
    Sure there are many other things that seem different, however there are similarities too, like Getsuga Tenshou.

    Also Nimaiya said that White was made in a similar fashion as his own Asauchi's, so the Zanpaktou Ichigo has used since the beginning of Bleach can in theory work pretty similar to a Zanpaktou, only, we don't know how large a difference it'll make now that Ichigo has an Asauchi made by Nimaiya.
    But it's a bit wrong to say it wasn't a real Zanpaktou when the essence behind it was pretty much the same, even said by Nimaiya himself.
    I don't think it was manifested by Quincy powers, especially not when the Quincy seem to draw out their swords/bows when it's comvenient and doesn't always carry them around manifested.
    That's quite unlike Ichigo who has a permanent manifested Zanpaktou, and he always had that since the day he met Rukia for the first time.
    All in all, what we have seen about Ichigo's Zanpaktou, and that it seems pretty darn similar to other Zanpaktous and the fact that Nimaiya said that he already had what is similar to an Asauchi all in all probably means Ichigo had something that essentially was a Zanpaktou all along, just slightly different.

    Also even now after Nimaiya gave him a new Asauchi made by him, even now, they're not sealed.
    His Zanpaktou's are still in permanent Shikai by the looks of it.
    So it seems that the reason that he's in permanent Shikai is probably not linked to the Asauchi.

    Well that's just my opinion anyway.

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    Banned 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Influences on Zanpakutou: Ichigo/Isshin and Matsumoto/Gin

    Quote Originally Posted by Quantized View Post
    Well there may be more to it, you have Isshin saying Getsuga Tenshou for example, that's pretty darn similar to Ichigo's, especially when you consider that innerworld Juha taught him that techniuqe, and it certainly does not seem to be Quincy related when his father uses a technique similar by the same name.
    Isshin is a shinigami, so Ichigo naturally got a little bit of Isshin's power (Shinigami powers). White is a Hollow. Juha is a Quincy. Juha imitates Ichigo's powers. The only similarity between those 2 Getsugas are a form and a name. Black Getsuga is like a Cero, normal Getsuga is simply RAW reiatsu shooting from the tip of Ichigo's blade. Isshin's Getsuga is made out of flame. It seems, that Ichigo's Getsuga is just imitation of Isshin's Getsuga. There's one problem. Quincy power is suppresing Shinigami power, so using the original technique is impossible. That's why it's pure reitasu being shot, just like warmed up Kenpachi's slash. In Bankai it takes it's power from Hollow, becoming like a Cero.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quantized View Post
    Also Nimaiya said that White was made in a similar fashion as his own Asauchi's, so the Zanpaktou Ichigo has used since the beginning of Bleach can in theory work pretty similar to a Zanpaktou, only, we don't know how large a difference it'll make now that Ichigo has an Asauchi made by Nimaiya.
    But it's a bit wrong to say it wasn't a real Zanpaktou when the essence behind it was pretty much the same, even said by Nimaiya himself.
    Well, now Ichigo's powers are ONLY his powers, not wasting it's potential to create Asauchi to use the rest of his powers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quantized View Post
    I don't think it was manifested by Quincy powers, especially not when the Quincy seem to draw out their swords/bows when it's comvenient and doesn't always carry them around manifested.
    What do you mean by "manifested"? :v Juha's sword was on his coat all the time, just in more handy form. Bambietta used only her sword. They could all have their Zanpakutos on their coats somewhere, hidden.

    Juha in Ichigo's inner world himself gave him Asauchi and explained to him what it is. Quincies are known to draw external power and gave manipulate it. External power is Zangetsu, making Asauchi knowing White is pretty much the same shouldn't be a problem for a Quincy like Juha, knowledge of real Juha is still there, just power is different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quantized View Post
    That's quite unlike Ichigo who has a permanent manifested Zanpaktou, and he always had that since the day he met Rukia for the first time.
    I have no idea what you mean. I'm talking about his sword not going back to unreleased state from Shikai. When he met Rukia he didn't have a Shikai in the first place, so how could it go back from Shikai?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quantized View Post
    Also even now after Nimaiya gave him a new Asauchi made by him, even now, they're not sealed.
    His Zanpaktou's are still in permanent Shikai by the looks of it.
    So it seems that the reason that he's in permanent Shikai is probably not linked to the Asauchi.
    Of course they're not sealed, they're made with Ichigo's reiatsu being put there, so they are FORCED to go into Shikai. Unreleased state is when Shinigami can't manifest his spirit (partially) with Zanpakuto. Ichigo put his soul there, that's why he could make 2 swords out of it. It represents his soul. There's no way it could be unreleased if his reiatsu is being put there.

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