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Thread: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Unohana vs Ichigo

  1. #16
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Unohana vs Ichigo

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Okay, so we have Quincy ability Blut, that can be used in TWO ways. Blut Arterie and Blut Vene. It is not really difficult to understand, that those are basically veins and artieries. It's one system, but you can put reishi only in one of them. "Activating Blut" doesn't mean ONLY BLUT VENE was activated. Ichigo used Blut Vene subconciously, so why wouldn't he use Blut Arterie? Is it stated, that Juhgetsu activated only half of a system, only Blut Vene? If it is, please, show me panels.
    Appeal to probability.

    Just because something is possibly of happening doesn't make it true.

    Blut makes uses of two veins. We know ichigo unconciously filled reishi within his his blut vene. However assuming that ichigo nessisarly would would have unconsiously used his blut aterie simply because that vein is open is baseless. Just because something is there doesn't mean that he's using it or is able to use it in the first place espically considering his lack of skill. Ichigo litterally gave descriptions that could only be appliable with blut vene.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Did I say he was? It's just not that much of a difference, that's why I talked about Urahara... geez. Who's twisting whose words? That panel still doesn't do anything to my point, that speed was much more dangerous than strength of attacks.
    Sure okay. Nevermind wheter I adressed the wrong person here is irrelavant. And who are you kidding with that sentence. Attack power is one thing. Ussually that expression is used to say that his attack power is something already to consider however that the part that comes after it is the most dangerous thing. Just because ichigo's attack speed is greater then his attack power doesn't mean his attack power isn't much. What kind of logic is that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    And his brother got stomped by Juha. We'll never know how Royd was able to fight Yama and how much of Juha's blood did he have to drink to get so strong defensive Blut, that could hold against Yamaji's Shikai.
    That's irrelevant. Royd Lloyd is canonicly weaker than Juha Bach

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    He said, that he would launch a thrust, as Blut won't help him this time. Of course he would need to use his power. Last time he tried that it didn't really work, right? His thrust to Ichigo's throat was stopped by his Blut Vene.

    Btw, that block was not really useful. Block and dodge is used to counterattack, that "block" was just a reflex, that wasn't really meaningful. He would have his throat torn open anyway.
    Uh huh and did you forget the part where ichigo actually reacts to Juha Bach's swings? prior to that statement? It's not about the blut part here. That is a way better feat then kenpachi bieng able to match Juha' bach's striking force.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Juha wanted to check if he really did see Blut Vene. Of course he wouldn't oneshot Ichigo to see it. He didn't "use his power" yet, right? And your "black smoke" was made by Ichigo and his GT, that didn't do ANY damage to Juha. Where did he say, that he had to use his power to grapple Ichigo to get into mounting position? Never saw it. If your "effort" is using anything that involves your reiatsu than it is not really a feat. Fighting like a human without strengthening your attacks with your abilities can't be really considered fighting, right? And we can't say if fully powered Royd, that uses Juha's techniques and strength is weaker than Juha that is not using his powers at all.
    Who's to say that you need to use your abilities to fight? Juha could easily have gone the CQC route which he appearantly did. Royd Lloyd casually blocked yamamoto's strike. So he clearly wasn't at full power there and certainly not against kenpachi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Not Royd, it was Juha, the whole mind was copied. Along with experience and knowledge about techniques. His Blut Vene was probably boosted, so what's left to be as strong as real Juha? I guess his reiatsu wasn't as strong, but he is not "Royd". He is already Juha. Or 75% Juha.
    Oh explain to me how having somebody's memories allows your blut which is a physical aspect to get stronger? Also wondering how you come with those numbers. The thing is we know Juha Bach>Royd Lloyd. Royd Lloyd's arm=shikai yama's striking power. Ichigo can somewhat block juha's strikes.


    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Also, what is yoru deal with that power? He never used it, as he used future tense before being trapped by Shadow... Any of his attacks used his power. Ichigo deflecting? Ichigo just had his sword up, that's all. His sword got blown away (his hand with a sword got), leaving him vulnerable, Juha grabbed his head and almost cut his throat. Really, where did he block anything? And I mean BLOCKED, not reacted or had his sword on a path of Juha's sword. By block I mean completely stop enemy's attack, nullyfing it's force.
    Right here. Ichigo nulliflied a strike from Juha Bach with his sword and arm. And no before you bring blut vene. Up Blut vene isn't responsible for your your strength. It's true that Juha has yet to release his powere yet. My bad. Still Juha still swung his blade at ichigo and it got stopped completely. Nevermind that Juha Bach still took it serious enough to stab him in the neck. I'm sure that beats Royd Lloyd effortlessly stomping kenpachi or him blocking a strike with his arm. Unless you believe royd Lloyd barehanded can muster up more strength then the real Juha can while swinging his sword.


    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    And please, show me what does that sentence have to do with anything. Pretty please. I never said Ichigo was weak, did I? It's just your justification is just stupid for me. Also, it has NOTHING to do with tournament, really. We have no comparison between Unohana from when she fought Kenpachi. All we know is Kenpachi is a beast right now, and Unohana killed him countless times while he was still getting power-up. If you don't have anything to say on Unohana vs Ichigo matter, you better drop that topic, as we both know, that neither of us can be persuaded with our opinions.

    As you wish:

    You:

    ''
    You know the real difference? Why Ichigo COULD attack Juha? Because of Blut Vene. Without Blut Vene he would be owned in an instant. ''

    You don't attack with your blut vene for the umpteenth time.. All of ichigo's attacks are based on his own speed,reactions and power.

    BTW: Did you forget what I said here?

    Me:

    ''Going with ichigo. Ichigo is way faster then unohana going by feats. That's an stark tier speed feat right there. Ichigo moved so fast that it appeared he just teleported away infront of 3 sternritters. With a torn body at that..

    Durability I would give to ichigo as well given he can swat away 6 heilg pfeil from a stenritter barehanded.

    The problem lies within the CQC aspect of her.

    Although I believe ichigo is quite a good deal superior to unpatched kenpachi given his Getsuga thensou could givethe realJuha Bach comparable damage to what yama did to the fake bach. While the fake bach stomped unpatched kenpachi appearantly barehanded. The question I asked if can anybody see bankai ichigo killing kenpachi several times while the latter get's stronger in the process. Unohana did this in base(which bankai ichigo might still be superior to given his feats against bach and she still has bankai Though the fact that ichigo actually fought the real bach in CQC with a sword should place him massively above kenpachi. Though I'd give unohana the edge in cqc given her bankai.


    I believe ichigo with his pretty good spead feats and pretty wide getsuga thensou should be able to delfect the melting liquid albeit with difficult. So I'd give it to ichigo with extreme difficulty. Ichigo's speed,wide getsuga thensou and durability(no blut) should allow him to edge out unohana.''

  2. #17
    Banned 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Unohana vs Ichigo

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuroi Getsu View Post
    Appeal to probability.

    Just because something is possibly of happening doesn't make it true.

    Blut makes uses of two veins. We know ichigo unconciously filled reishi within his his blut vene. However assuming that ichigo nessisarly would would have unconsiously used his blut aterie simply because that vein is open is baseless. Just because something is there doesn't mean that he's using it or is able to use it in the first place espically considering his lack of skill. Ichigo litterally gave descriptions that could only be appliable with blut vene.
    Your assumption is as valid as mine at the moment. We know he acquired "Blut", as it is INHERITANT throughout Quincies, so saying he doesn't have Blut Arterie is just stupid IMO. He had both to begin with, they weren't activated. How can you be sure, that only one of them was activated? He activated his whole Quincy powers due to absorbing Quincy reishi from Kirge's Jail.

    I can't prove with panels that he certainly has it (it'd be overkill given his power, really...), and you can only try to prove that he doesn't have, showing that he only showed Blut Vene so far.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kuroi Getsu View Post
    Attack power is one thing. Ussually that expression is used to say that his attack power is something already to consider however that the part that comes after it is the most dangerous thing. Just because ichigo's attack speed is greater then his attack power doesn't mean his attack power isn't much. What kind of logic is that?
    Yeah, I get it, you just misunderstood that part of my post. I'm not a native speaker and used wrong words. Maybe if I wrote "isn't that much of a threat" right off the bat it would be more accurate than "isn't much". And here I thought you have misread or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuroi Getsu View Post
    That's irrelevant. Royd Lloyd is canonicly weaker than Juha Bach
    And did I say he wasn't? I wrote Juha's inner energy is much stronger, and all that Royd had was probably crazy strong Blut and knowledge of various techniques of Juha.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuroi Getsu View Post
    Uh huh and did you forget the part where ichigo actually reacts to Juha Bach's swings? prior to that statement? It's not about the blut part here. That is a way better feat then kenpachi bieng able to match Juha' bach's striking force.
    I replied to that already, didn't I? "reacting" and "putting sword on Juha's sword's path" is pretty much the same.



    [QUOTE=Kuroi Getsu;3494895] Who's to say that you need to use your abilities to fight? Juha could easily have gone the CQC route which he appearantly did. Royd Lloyd casually blocked yamamoto's strike. So he clearly wasn't at full power there and certainly not against kenpachi.

    Let's start with CQC... what the hell is that? That sentence makes so little sense to me, that I guess CQC is a vital part there. Royd blocked Yamaji's slash, so Royd wasn't at full power? Can you clarify that sentence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuroi Getsu View Post
    Oh explain to me how having somebody's memories allows your blut which is a physical aspect to get stronger? Also wondering how you come with those numbers. The thing is we know Juha Bach>Royd Lloyd. Royd Lloyd's arm=shikai yama's striking power. Ichigo can somewhat block juha's strikes.
    Aaaaand here we go again. Did I say memories caused Royd's Blut to get stronger? Where? I said he had memories and his Blut was boosted. Where did I say Blut got stronger by having memories?



    Quote Originally Posted by Kuroi Getsu View Post
    Right here. Ichigo nulliflied a strike from Juha Bach with his sword and arm. And no before you bring blut vene. Up Blut vene isn't responsible for your your strength. It's true that Juha has yet to release his powere yet. My bad. Still Juha still swung his blade at ichigo and it got stopped completely. Nevermind that Juha Bach still took it serious enough to stab him in the neck. I'm sure that beats Royd Lloyd effortlessly stomping kenpachi or him blocking a strike with his arm. Unless you believe royd Lloyd barehanded can muster up more strength then the real Juha can while swinging his sword.
    Nullified? I see Ichigo getting crushed by Juha's strike force to the left. That's why there are those lines in the background. The part that comes after those panels, I can't understand. Your reasoning is just ridicoulous. He took it serious because he launched a thrust? You might want to know what pressure is. I'm sure there are lots of books that can help you with that. Then go outdoors, find a stick and try to stick it into ground. How will you do it? Wait, I know the answer, you'll casually thrust it into ground. You know why? PRESSURE. And you know why Juha said Blut won't help him this time? Because pressure would be much greater, smaller area would make it impossible to concentrate much reishi there, therefore, Blut would be ineffective.




    Quote Originally Posted by Kuroi Getsu View Post
    ''
    You know the real difference? Why Ichigo COULD attack Juha? Because of Blut Vene. Without Blut Vene he would be owned in an instant. ''

    You don't attack with your blut vene for the umpteenth time.. All of ichigo's attacks are based on his own speed,reactions and power.
    I'm starting to wonder if you can read properly... Okay. Let's start with "could attack because of". Do you know what that phrase mean? That attack could be launched because of Blut Vene. How did you jump to conclusion, that I said Blut Vene made his attack stronger? Simply ridicoulous. I guess I have to write it more... simple for you, like for a 7 year old. IF HE DIDN'T HAVE BLUT VENE, HIS THROAT WOULD BE TORN APART WITH JUHA'S THRUST. Yeah, I used capslock, it should help with reading. Here comes the next part. IF HIS THROAT WAS TORN APART, HE WOULDN'T BE CONCIOUS, LET ALONE ABLE TO LAUNCH POINT BLANK GETSUGA TENSHOU AT JUHA. No problems so far?


    Quote Originally Posted by Kuroi Getsu View Post
    Going with ichigo. Ichigo is way faster then unohana going by feats. That's an stark tier speed feat right there. Ichigo moved so fast that it appeared he just teleported away infront of 3 sternritters. With a torn body at that..

    Durability I would give to ichigo as well given he can swat away 6 heilg pfeil from a stenritter barehanded.

    The problem lies within the CQC aspect of her.

    Although I believe ichigo is quite a good deal superior to unpatched kenpachi given his Getsuga thensou could givethe realJuha Bach comparable damage to what yama did to the fake bach. While the fake bach stomped unpatched kenpachi appearantly barehanded. The question I asked if can anybody see bankai ichigo killing kenpachi several times while the latter get's stronger in the process. Unohana did this in base(which bankai ichigo might still be superior to given his feats against bach and she still has bankai Though the fact that ichigo actually fought the real bach in CQC with a sword should place him massively above kenpachi. Though I'd give unohana the edge in cqc given her bankai.
    Of course I didn't forget about that. That was your first post. I agree with what you say here, I just think your justification using Juha and Kenpachi is plain wrong.

    1. You like that A>B>C logic while talking about Kenpachi, Royd, Ichigo and Juha, so let's use it. Kyoraku=Stark in terms of speed. Unohana>Kyoraku in terms of overall fighting power. Unohana is brute fighter, Kyoraku ability user. We can safely assume, that Unohana, as a First Kenpachi, is faster and stronger in terms of swordmanship than Kyoraku. So you have absolutely no proof, that Unohana isn't as fast as Ichigo there. Kenpachi killed 3 SRs with ease, speedblitzing two of them. Unohana is way above that. Show me a solid proof, that speed Ichigo showed there is unreachable for Unohana. And you know why this logic sucks? Because that justification I just showed would sound ridicoulous to you, just as your panels from Ichigo vs Juha and Juha>Royd>Kenpachi.
    2. CQC aspect of her... again, what the hell is it?
    3. Unohana's "melting" Bankai again... Show me proof, that her bankai actually melts something... xd We get one page of that while Kenpachi is saying about fight. Unohana takes damage as well, pretty useless Bankai if it was real, not metaphoric (like the whole fight, Kubo made it poetic). On the next page, they're fine, 4 pages later Unohana is still in Bankai and nothing melts. Why? She stopped using her ability despite Kenpachi being stronger? Why did she stop using it after ONE page? For me it was rather to show how they're lost in battle, everything else is irrelevant, just them and their swords, Kenpachi says how he was asleep, fight is consuming them. If Unohana used her power for 1 page and then ceased to use it on stronger Zaraki, I'll gladly call her a borderline idiot.
    4. You do realize, that I adressed this whole part talking about way of justyfing your opinion with Juha, right?

  3. #18
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Kazu-Sama's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Unohana vs Ichigo

    Can a mod confirm - does Ichigo get access to Blut of any description, and if so does he get both?

    I was under the impression he couldn't use it previously since it was so uncontrolled, but clarification would be nice...

    Epic Brofist!

  4. #19
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Unohana vs Ichigo

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazu-Sama View Post
    Can a mod confirm - does Ichigo get access to Blut of any description, and if so does he get both?

    I was under the impression he couldn't use it previously since it was so uncontrolled, but clarification would be nice...
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...I-Rules-Thread

    Rule #5, point 4, Ichigo fights as when he fought Kirge. Thus, no Blut, as he acquired it after the fight by having Quincy reiatsu come back with his reiatsu after attacking Jail.

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  6. #20
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Unohana vs Ichigo

    I'm siding with Unohana. Even Ichigo can't heal himself. Ichigo was about on par with Zaraki going by his battles with Sternritter. Zaraki took out 3, who may not be the strongest but 3 nonetheless. Unohana 'killed and resurrected' Zaraki how many times? There is no number but it seems to be something extremely high. Ichigo isn't on the same level. Unohana is at least on par with the Royal Guard imo. She probably has them beat as well since her title was Kenpachi before anyone, unless the royal realm gives those guys some magical powers or something. Just my opinion. I would say Unohana is the strongest character there is in this tournament.

  7. #21
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Unohana vs Ichigo

    Result

    Unohana Retsu : 10
    Kurosaki Ichigo : 9

    Unohana Retsu advances to the final.

    You can discuss the results in Bleach Tournament Discussion Thread.

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