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Thread: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

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    Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara


    Don't forget to read the rules first before you proceed. You can click on character names below pictures to go to their Bleach wiki article for more information.

    SEMI FINALS

    Welcome to the Semi Finals of championship fights of the second Bleach Tournament!
    Here are the contestants who will battle against each other to advance to the next round in the championship bracket:



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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

    I give it to Kisuke. Shunsui's games are being used by both sides. Urahara is a genius, he would figure those games out in an instant. And I'm sure Urahara would make those abilities like his own. That's Shunsui's huge weakness. His abilities can be used against him. Which leaves Shunsui with playing his games, and Urahara with his Kido, Benihime's abilities AND Kyoraku's abilities. Reiatsu handcuffs that everyone complains about aren't even needed there.
    Last edited by Duniak; August 05, 2013 at 07:46 AM.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

    I cheer urahara on too, he is too smart not to realize how his shikai works, whereas bankai are not included in this fights,as we haven't seen them yet. Urahara's intelligence and Kido should be enough,imo...

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

    This is an interesting match-up, and I could see it going either way. Both are quite intelligent fighters with a few bad habits, and a tendency to make things interesting from a battle perspective. And we haven't seen either of their bankais, interestingly enough. I think there is a tendency to underestimate the extent of Shunsui's shikai abilities and his games. Urahara is undoubtedly intelligent enough to figure the games out, but that doesn't discount the initial advantage of the rules. And one cannot forget Shunsui's shikai is equipped with other abilities that can be quite useful, Shunsui's use of shadows during Kageoni is quite problematic. Urahara's shikai is versatile and powerful, but it's also quite simple to understand and manage for someone of Shunsui's level. So for their respective Shikai abilities, I give Shunsui the advantage. In terms of Kido, Urahara has obviously shown far more than Shunsui. However, I can't imagine much of Urahara's kido being particularly useful against Shunsui, although it is an advantage of sorts. In terms of speed, I tend to favour Shunsui slightly, while strength and endurance go to Shunsui by a respectable margin, as does zanjutsu. Sheer intellect goes to Urahara obviously, which is particularly useful against Shunsui's games, although Shunsui isn't a slouch by any stretch of the imagination on this front. After this long walkthrough, I find myself favouring Shunsui, mainly as a result of his perceived superiority in terms of physical ability, the advantages granted to him by his shikai, and his experience. However, with Urahara's intellect and versatility, he is a threat to anyone.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    And one cannot forget Shunsui's shikai is equipped with other abilities that can be quite useful, Shunsui's use of shadows during Kageoni is quite problematic. Urahara's shikai is versatile and powerful, but it's also quite simple to understand and manage for someone of Shunsui's level. So for their respective Shikai abilities, I give Shunsui the advantage. In terms of Kido, Urahara has obviously shown far more than Shunsui.
    Well, Urahara's shikai is not to be understood. Noone tries to understand Ichigo's Shikai, right? Understanding that doesn't help. Understanding Shunsui's shikai makes a hell of a difference. Kageoni is the only game that is used only by Shunsui. Or maybe it can be used by others, but they don't know how? Nvmd. Urahara has pretty much experience and understanding of techniques. He can come up with counter to anything. Remember Ichigo vs Jackie? Urahara taught him that, with Renji. Kyoraku has to use it once for Urahara to figure it out. It's not hard. He comes out of shadow, what else could that mean? Once he figures it out he has 2 options:

    1. Avoid casting shadows near him, which would render ability useless. Then use other techniques of his while playing Kyoraku's games.
    2. Use it to his advantage. Knowing he uses shadows can make Kyoraku predictable. Lure him with casting shadow, when he uses Kageoni, bind him/cut him/blow him/whatever. Instead of disabling that ability he can use it to his advantage, as he would know when he is casting shadow and when Kyoraku can attack. It's an easy counter for Urahara then.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

    I think this fight will be decided by one attack - it's not like a Kenpachi battle of Endurance, these guy hit hard and fast. With that taken into account, I have to give it to Urahara for one simple reason - his portable Gigai. As has been stated, Shunsui's games hold an advantage when first used, and with the Gigai he can negate that to figure it out. Let Shunsui hit the gigai then bind him with Benihime.

    My two favourite characters, but I'm leaning towards Urahara

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

    I give it to Kyoraku. Sure, Urahara is powerful, cunning and dangerous, but so is Kyoraku. And he has something Urahara doesn't: many more centuries of training and experience. I'd consider them equal if it wasn't for this small advantage.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

    That's a tough one, the fight can go either way, I see those two on equal footing. They are both careful and analytical, they observe their opponents' moves before they take the offensive. IMHO Shunsui is more experienced, better at swordsmanship and has a harder-to-deal with shikai which can end the fight before his opponent can figure out what's going on. Urahara is more intelligent, better at kido and has a versatile shikai, and devices and techniques that can be fatal at the slightest opening. It's anybody's guess, IMHO either of these guys can win in any given day. I don't think any of these guys will blindly attack the other, so the battle will ultimately be decided by endurance and combat abilities. I slightly lean toward Shunsui because I've seen more of him in serious battles.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Well, Urahara's shikai is not to be understood. Noone tries to understand Ichigo's Shikai, right? Understanding that doesn't help. Understanding Shunsui's shikai makes a hell of a difference. Kageoni is the only game that is used only by Shunsui. Or maybe it can be used by others, but they don't know how? Nvmd. Urahara has pretty much experience and understanding of techniques. He can come up with counter to anything. Remember Ichigo vs Jackie? Urahara taught him that, with Renji. Kyoraku has to use it once for Urahara to figure it out. It's not hard. He comes out of shadow, what else could that mean? Once he figures it out he has 2 options:

    1. Avoid casting shadows near him, which would render ability useless. Then use other techniques of his while playing Kyoraku's games.
    2. Use it to his advantage. Knowing he uses shadows can make Kyoraku predictable. Lure him with casting shadow, when he uses Kageoni, bind him/cut him/blow him/whatever. Instead of disabling that ability he can use it to his advantage, as he would know when he is casting shadow and when Kyoraku can attack. It's an easy counter for Urahara then.
    Ichigo's shikai is rarely a threat to top tier individuals because it's easily avoidable, as is Urahara's. That was my point; unlike many of the captains that have some sort of trickery, technique, poison, or something of the sort that makes their shikai particularly difficult to handle, Urahara's is relatively straightforward, and as such isn't as worrisome as say Shinji, Aizen, Mayori or Soifon's shikais. This is particularly important where we have individuals that only have their shikais. His shikai's offensive abilities wouldn't pose much threat to someone of Shunsui's level; he could easily avoid them or tank them. And I've already pointed out that Urahara is undoubtedly going to figure out Shunsui's games; however, before he does, Shunsui has an opening. And you've offered solutions for Urahara after he's seen Shunsui's shadow, if Shunsui utilises his shadow technique to score a critical blow, the match is effectively over. The early stages of Shunsui's games are where he holds the greatest advantage; he will always know the rules and the extent of his abilities under those rules before his opponents. I don't think this match is heavily in favour of Shunsui, but his games do give him an advantage.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Ichigo's shikai is rarely a threat to top tier individuals because it's easily avoidable, as is Urahara's. That was my point; unlike many of the captains that have some sort of trickery, technique, poison, or something of the sort that makes their shikai particularly difficult to handle, Urahara's is relatively straightforward, and as such isn't as worrisome as say Shinji, Aizen, Mayori or Soifon's shikais.
    Ichigo's shikai is a huge threat for anyone who is in shikai. And is Urahara's shikai so plain and simple as you say? Is it avoidable? Urahara's shikai is versatile, unlike Shunsui's. It can create a shield, a binding, a... something like GT? In fight against Yammy Urahara could recreate Bala. He easily matched his strength to Yammy's Cero to protect Yoruichi. He used technique of exactly the same strength. Which means he could easily use more power and overpower Yammy. Or he is lucky and is on the exact same level of strength as Yammy, not even 0,0000001% different. He also shot something like Byakurai and penetrated Aizen's (premature) Hogyoku armor. Is it avoidable? I don't think so. Is it simple? Hell no. It has no special ability of some sort like illusion, but it offers you countless ways to deal with opponent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    His shikai's offensive abilities wouldn't pose much threat to someone of Shunsui's level; he could easily avoid them or tank them. And I've already pointed out that Urahara is undoubtedly going to figure out Shunsui's games; however, before he does, Shunsui has an opening.
    Portable gigai takes that opening away. Stark figured it out almost instantly, Urahara is worlds above him in terms of intelligence. Also, shikai's power depends on user. You can't say "Urahara's offensive abilities are not enough on Shunsui, he can tank them". Yammy couldn't tank them, Aizen with Hogyoku couldn't, why would Shunsui be able to magically tank them? If you want to say Shunsui can tank them, just say Urahara is too damn weak to wound Shunsui. If you think he can, don't go saying his shikai abilities are not strong enough. Nake is enough to counter point-blank Cero from Yammy. You really think Shunsui is stronger than Aizen and Yammy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    And you've offered solutions for Urahara after he's seen Shunsui's shadow, if Shunsui utilises his shadow technique to score a critical blow, the match is effectively over. The early stages of Shunsui's games are where he holds the greatest advantage; he will always know the rules and the extent of his abilities under those rules before his opponents. I don't think this match is heavily in favour of Shunsui, but his games do give him an advantage.
    Colour games can't one-shot Urahara. The moment Shunsui calls Black or whatever, Urahara would have already vague understanding of technique. And Shunsui would HAVE to let him say his part. Taka oni never seemed like a threat and I don't see any potential danger in this technique, maybe I missed something.

    The only technique capable of one-shoting is Kageoni. But it's not like he magically teleports and instantly attacks. He comes out of the shadow. I don't think he ever used it in actual fight. He used it when opponent was distracted and fought someone else (other captains/Love and Rose). He doesn't create copy of himself, right? So he has to disappear in that instant and appear in the shadow. Which takes some small amount of time, which means Urahara HAS time to react. It's not like Urahara is pierced before he knows it. If Shunsui'd disappeared in front of Urahara's eyes, you think Urahara wouldn't be cautious enough to avoid being one-shoted?
    Last edited by Duniak; August 05, 2013 at 02:11 PM.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

    Urahara is one of the most perceptive characters in Bleach, if not ranked first in that sense already. It definitely helps to be perceptive against Kyouraku's versatile and difficult to counter Shikai.
    Well, Urahara's Shikai is also versatile. If I had a chance to, I'd probably say this is due a stalemate in the end. If I have to call it one way, I'll go with Kyouraku, since Urahara has barely fought all-in, except against Aizen, which was entirely a mere distraction itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    The only technique capable of one-shoting is Kageoni. But it's not like he magically teleports and instantly attacks. He comes out of the shadow. I don't think he ever used it in actual fight. He used it when opponent was distracted and fought someone else (other captains/Love and Rose). He doesn't create copy of himself, right? So he has to disappear in that instant and appear in the shadow. Which takes some small amount of time, which means Urahara HAS time to react. It's not like Urahara is pierced before he knows it. If Shunsui'd disappeared in front of Urahara's eyes, you think Urahara wouldn't be cautious enough to avoid being one-shoted?
    For clarification, yes, he doesn't magically teleport, but it doesn't work this way, either. Remember he immediately used Kageoni again right after he landed the first one on Starkk. He simply stabbed his own shadow and his blade re-emerged from the shadows near Starkk's side. So, it's actually never easy to react to this trick. He doesn't have to dive into the shadow himself, which makes it more difficult for the opponent to read.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Ichigo's shikai is a huge threat for anyone who is in shikai. And is Urahara's shikai so plain and simple as you say? Is it avoidable? Urahara's shikai is versatile, unlike Shunsui's. It can create a shield, a binding, a... something like GT? In fight against Yammy Urahara could recreate Bala. He easily matched his strength to Yammy's Cero to protect Yoruichi. He used technique of exactly the same strength. Which means he could easily use more power and overpower Yammy. Or he is lucky and is on the exact same level of strength as Yammy, not even 0,0000001% different. He also shot something like Byakurai and penetrated Aizen's (premature) Hogyoku armor. Is it avoidable? I don't think so. Is it simple? Hell no. It has no special ability of some sort like illusion, but it offers you countless ways to deal with opponent.
    Seriously, any captain could probably avoid Ichigo's shikai with relative ease, some probably wouldn't bother. I've already pointed out that Urahara's shikai is versatile, but none of the techniques are going to be particularly effective against Shunsui. Shunsui is fast enough to avoid any of the attacks Urahara has shown, and he could probably tank others. An unreleased Yammy was the weakest of the Espada, I don't see how matching the strength of his cero is that great a feat. And Urahara's net was utilised in concert with Yuroichi, it would be easily avoidable otherwise, the same goes for his Kido. His most prodigious displays came against Aizen, when he was provided with support and diversions by Isshin and Yuroichi, these attacks would've been easily avoidable otherwise.

    Quote Quote:
    Portable gigai takes that opening away. Stark figured it out almost instantly, Urahara is worlds above him in terms of intelligence. Also, shikai's power depends on user. You can't say "Urahara's offensive abilities are not enough on Shunsui, he can tank them". Yammy couldn't tank them, Aizen with Hogyoku couldn't, why would Shunsui be able to magically tank them? If you want to say Shunsui can tank them, just say Urahara is too damn weak to wound Shunsui. If you think he can, don't go saying his shikai abilities are not strong enough. Nake is enough to counter point-blank Cero from Yammy. You really think Shunsui is stronger than Aizen and Yammy?
    He can only use his gigai once, and Shunsui has more than one game. Not only that, but Urahara would have to know when to use his gigai, for it to be of any use. Aizen did tank Urahara's shikai ability. And considering how Shunsui wiped off Starrk's cero as nothing much, I'd say he's pretty capable of tanking attacks when necessary. And yes Shunsui is most definitely stronger than an unreleased Yammy, who was as pointed out, the weakest of the Espada.


    Quote Quote:
    Colour games can't one-shot Urahara. The moment Shunsui calls Black or whatever, Urahara would have already vague understanding of technique. And Shunsui would HAVE to let him say his part. Taka oni never seemed like a threat and I don't see any potential danger in this technique, maybe I missed something.
    Urahara's good, he isn't prescient. The reality is that Shunsui is going to start off with the advantage in the games.

    Quote Quote:
    The only technique capable of one-shoting is Kageoni. But it's not like he magically teleports and instantly attacks. He comes out of the shadow. I don't think he ever used it in actual fight. He used it when opponent was distracted and fought someone else (other captains/Love and Rose). He doesn't create copy of himself, right? So he has to disappear in that instant and appear in the shadow. Which takes some small amount of time, which means Urahara HAS time to react. It's not like Urahara is pierced before he knows it. If Shunsui'd disappeared in front of Urahara's eyes, you think Urahara wouldn't be cautious enough to avoid being one-shoted?
    Hakuteiken has already responded to this, and I couldn't put it better myself, so:
    Quote Quote:
    For clarification, yes, he doesn't magically teleport, but it doesn't work this way, either. Remember he immediately used Kageoni again right after he landed the first one on Starkk. He simply stabbed his own shadow and his blade re-emerged from the shadows near Starkk's side. So, it's actually never easy to react to this trick. He doesn't have to dive into the shadow himself, which makes it more difficult for the opponent to read.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Seriously, any captain could probably avoid Ichigo's shikai with relative ease, some probably wouldn't bother. I've already pointed out that Urahara's shikai is versatile, but none of the techniques are going to be particularly effective against Shunsui. Shunsui is fast enough to avoid any of the attacks Urahara has shown, and he could probably tank others.
    This discussion won't go anywhere. You have no idea how much fights could be left with "X is too fast for Y, he won't be caught". Well, Ichigo doesn't have problem with hitting with his Getsuga Tenshou. Be it Byakuya, Ginjo, Renji or Kirge. He didn't have problem in shikai too. If you want to think any captain can avoid Shikai GT, go ahead. You won't change your way of thinking. You just want Shunsui to win.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    An unreleased Yammy was the weakest of the Espada, I don't see how matching the strength of his cero is that great a feat. And Urahara's net was utilised in concert with Yuroichi, it would be easily avoidable otherwise, the same goes for his Kido. His most prodigious displays came against Aizen, when he was provided with support and diversions by Isshin and Yuroichi, these attacks would've been easily avoidable otherwise.
    Oh, that's wrong. It's not "unreleased yammy", it is "Yammy from back then". His power and number is based on "rage" that dwells inside him. He was number 10 in HM arc too and he went to 0 in one release, didn't he? What makes you think he was someone else back in KT? Reiatsu surely didn't change.


    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    He can only use his gigai once, and Shunsui has more than one game. Not only that, but Urahara would have to know when to use his gigai, for it to be of any use. Aizen did tank Urahara's shikai ability. And considering how Shunsui wiped off Starrk's cero as nothing much, I'd say he's pretty capable of tanking attacks when necessary. And yes Shunsui is most definitely stronger than an unreleased Yammy, who was as pointed out, the weakest of the Espada.
    Cero Espada the weakest, sounds legit. Taka Oni, Kage Oni, colour game. Taka Oni hardly does any damage, Kage Oni is taken with portable Gigai, colour game is the only that is taken head on. And then Urahara can use the same move on him, which makes that ability not so lifechanging. Urahara would do the same damage as Shunsui. Which games is do advantageous? Tell me.


    Quote Quote:
    For clarification, yes, he doesn't magically teleport, but it doesn't work this way, either. Remember he immediately used Kageoni again right after he landed the first one on Starkk. He simply stabbed his own shadow and his blade re-emerged from the shadows near Starkk's side. So, it's actually never easy to react to this trick. He doesn't have to dive into the shadow himself, which makes it more difficult for the opponent to read.
    Yeah, I forgot that panel. It most likely creates a portal. Which doesn't make it less easy to predict once figured out. It's the only ability that is a threat at the beggining. But it's not lke Urahara, who is highly observant wouldn't notice Shunsui stabbing his shadow.

    @Edit. Also, if it IS a portal, that means it can be accessed from both sides, which is the next technique that can backfire against Urahara.
    Last edited by Duniak; August 05, 2013 at 04:19 PM.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    This discussion won't go anywhere. You have no idea how much fights could be left with "X is too fast for Y, he won't be caught". Well, Ichigo doesn't have problem with hitting with his Getsuga Tenshou. Be it Byakuya, Ginjo, Renji or Kirge. He didn't have problem in shikai too. If you want to think any captain can avoid Shikai GT, go ahead. You won't change your way of thinking. You just want Shunsui to win.
    Being dismissive isn't going to change reality. Ichigo's shikai has never been a match for captain-class opponents. Although, we're not talking about Ichigo. Urahara has yet to land one of his shikai's offensive abilities without the element of surprise or his opponent simply not bothering to avoid it.

    Quote Quote:
    Oh, that's wrong. It's not "unreleased yammy", it is "Yammy from back then". His power and number is based on "rage" that dwells inside him. He was number 10 in HM arc too and he went to 0 in one release, didn't he? What makes you think he was someone else back in KT? Reiatsu surely didn't change.
    Yes, he went from 10 to 0 after his release. It doesn't change that he was 10 during the moments you reference; his rank was the lowest of the Espada. Ulquiorra showed the difference between their two unreleased forms. Unreleased Yammy wasn't a particular threat.

    Quote Quote:
    Cero Espada the weakest, sounds legit. Taka Oni, Kage Oni, colour game. Taka Oni hardly does any damage, Kage Oni is taken with portable Gigai, colour game is the only that is taken head on. And then Urahara can use the same move on him, which makes that ability not so lifechanging. Urahara would do the same damage as Shunsui. Which games is do advantageous? Tell me.
    Except he wasn't Cero at the time, he bore the number 10, indicative of his abilities in that form. Once again, portable gigai can only be used effectively once, and Urahara isn't going to be able to predict the moment to use it. Shunsui has multiple games. The games aren't advantageous to Shunsui once his opponent understands the rules, but prior to that he holds an obvious advantage. That's clear. You seem to be unable to grasp this.

    Quote Quote:
    Yeah, I forgot that panel. It most likely creates a portal. Which doesn't make it less easy to predict once figured out. It's the only ability that is a threat at the beggining. But it's not lke Urahara, who is highly observant wouldn't notice Shunsui stabbing his shadow.

    @Edit. Also, if it IS a portal, that means it can be accessed from both sides, which is the next technique that can backfire against Urahara.
    If Urahara is unaware of the ability, he is at a disadvantage. And even when he becomes aware of it, Shunsui's experience is likely to maintain an advantage with this.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

    Yes, the gigai can only be used once.
    But you keep maintaining that Kageoni is the biggest threat, and while Urahara might not know when to use it the spinning top does nothing, the higher game did nothing, and after that the next game is Kageoni.

    In a straight-up fight I'd say Shunsui is stronger and has more endurance, but Urahara - even moreso than Shunsui - is the sort of fighter who creates one opening then crushes his opponent.

    As soon as the shadow game begins, Urahara can use his Gigai. This leaves Shunsui potentially open for either A) - A sword attaqck from the shadows
    B) - Benihime to bind/explode
    C) - A kido combination
    or D) Reitsu cuffs

    Depending on the distance difference.

    Don't get me wrong, I do think Shunui one of the strongest characters in Bleach, but Urahara has the power and skill to do serious damage with very few attacks, and the intelligence to get his opening.

    Epic Brofist!

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