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  • Shunsui Kyōraku

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Thread: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

  1. #16
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Being dismissive isn't going to change reality. Ichigo's shikai has never been a match for captain-class opponents. Although, we're not talking about Ichigo. Urahara has yet to land one of his shikai's offensive abilities without the element of surprise or his opponent simply not bothering to avoid it.
    Oh, I have to disagree. Ichigo's Shikai has never been a match for captain-class opponent's BANKAI. Can you show me any fight, where Ichigo didn't fare well against Shinigami in Shikai? I mean, when they were pretty much equal overally. Renji? He is captain-class, has bankai and will be a VC until he surpases Byakuya I guess. And during his fight with Ichigo his Shikai wasn't particularly stronger than Zangetsu. Against Byakuya, he fared well. Byakuya went bankai and that's when Ichigo started to have problems. On Shikai vs Shikai fight, I think he even had advantage. Getsuga is pretty fast, even Byakuya was surprised.

    Arrancars excluded, as they're all basically Hollowfied Shinigami which gives them pretty big boost. Bankai Ichigo is roughly as strong as unreleased Grimmjow in HM. He had to Hollowfy to handle him and his ressurection, talking about Shikai there is pointless. Ichigo back then seemed shit compared to other captains. His reiatsu was big, he was pretty fast, but he would never win against Stark or even hold his own like Shunsui did. If he lost against captain-class in Shikai it'd NOT be because Zangetsu is weak in shikai, it'd be because he was just weaker. Well, actually, he never had Zangetsu to begin with but...

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Yes, he went from 10 to 0 after his release. It doesn't change that he was 10 during the moments you reference; his rank was the lowest of the Espada. Ulquiorra showed the difference between their two unreleased forms. Unreleased Yammy wasn't a particular threat.
    Yeah, he wasn't a threat even to Yoruichi, but still even she considered his point-blank Cero a threat. All Ulquiorra did was redirect one attack and say, that they'd lose if they fought Yoruichi and Urahara. Yammy was the only Espada who could actually store his reiryoku, no wonder he was weak during his unreleased state, as he stored his current power for release.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Once again, portable gigai can only be used effectively once, and Urahara isn't going to be able to predict the moment to use it. Shunsui has multiple games. The games aren't advantageous to Shunsui once his opponent understands the rules, but prior to that he holds an obvious advantage. That's clear. You seem to be unable to grasp this.
    You seem unable to read what I'm saying all along. I'm constantly saying those games ARE advantegous at the start. Don't bother explaining it. But those games CAN'T one-shot Urahara. On the contrary, Iro Oni is a technique where it's a hit for a hit. Once Urahara knows how it works, using it is disadvantageous. What's left is Kage Oni and Taka Oni. Taka Oni didn't do anything against Stark, we have NO idea how it works, we just know the name of a technique. It's not enough to use it as argument. And Kage Oni... that's why we have that gigai. He doesn't need to know when to use portable gigai. He used portable gigai against Yammy and it didn't look like Yammy was shouting "HEY, DIPSHIT, I'M GOING TO ATTACK YOU WITH THE FASTEST TECHNIQUE WE HAVE SO YOU BETTER PREPARE YOUR GIGAI". In short span of time, when Bala, the FASTEST technique was being shot, he replaced himself with gigai. And still, gigai is a gigai after all. He can enter it without much effort and at least trick his opponent into thinking he is real. Using it as a decoy doesn't require him knowing when to use it. It's like Naruto and using a clone. Enemies don't even know when the swap happened.



    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    If Urahara is unaware of the ability, he is at a disadvantage. And even when he becomes aware of it, Shunsui's experience is likely to maintain an advantage with this.
    It's your opinion. In my opinion, Urahara's genius can turn the tables and be more advantegous than Kyoraku's experience.
    Last edited by Duniak; August 05, 2013 at 07:01 PM.

  2. #17
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Oh, I have to disagree. Ichigo's Shikai has never been a match for captain-class opponent's BANKAI. Can you show me any fight, where Ichigo didn't fare well against Shinigami in Shikai? I mean, when they were pretty much equal overally. Renji? He is captain-class, has bankai and will be a VC until he surpases Byakuya I guess. And during his fight with Ichigo his Shikai wasn't particularly stronger than Zangetsu. Against Byakuya, he fared well. Byakuya went bankai and that's when Ichigo started to have problems. On Shikai vs Shikai fight, I think he even had advantage. Getsuga is pretty fast, even Byakuya was surprised.

    Arrancars excluded, as they're all basically Hollowfied Shinigami which gives them pretty big boost. Bankai Ichigo is roughly as strong as unreleased Grimmjow in HM. He had to Hollowfy to handle him and his ressurection, talking about Shikai there is pointless. Ichigo back then seemed shit compared to other captains. His reiatsu was big, he was pretty fast, but he would never win against Stark or even hold his own like Shunsui did. If he lost against captain-class in Shikai it'd NOT be because Zangetsu is weak in shikai, it'd be because he was just weaker. Well, actually, he never had Zangetsu to begin with but...
    I don't see the point of discussing Ichigo extensively; he isn't involved in this match, and although there is an apparent similarity in appearance between Urahara's and Ichigo's technique, I don't think it necessary or prudent to overanalyse Ichigo's as a measure of Urahara's. Although, I'd like to clarify that you're talking about the sum of Ichigo's abilities versus those of captain-class individuals, rather than purely his shikai technique. Renji wasn't captain-class to clarify, and Byakuya received a minor injury on his arm through sheer arrogance. Neither are even remotely comparable to Shunsui, nor is Ichigo the same as Urahara.

    Quote Quote:
    Yeah, he wasn't a threat even to Yoruichi, but still even she considered his point-blank Cero a threat. All Ulquiorra did was redirect one attack and say, that they'd lose if they fought Yoruichi and Urahara. Yammy was the only Espada who could actually store his reiryoku, no wonder he was weak during his unreleased state, as he stored his current power for release.
    No one likes getting hit point-blank, athough we've seen how Shunsui handles an even more powerful cero from point-blank range. And as you accept, unreleased Yammy was weak compared to the other Espada.

    Quote Quote:
    You seem unable to read what I'm saying all along. I'm constantly saying those games ARE advantegous at the start. Don't bother explaining it. But those games CAN'T one-shot Urahara. On the contrary, Iro Oni is a technique where it's a hit for a hit. Once Urahara knows how it works, using it is disadvantageous. What's left is Kage Oni and Taka Oni. Taka Oni didn't do anything against Stark, we have NO idea how it works, we just know the name of a technique. It's not enough to use it as argument. And Kage Oni... that's why we have that gigai. He doesn't need to know when to use portable gigai. He used portable gigai against Yammy and it didn't look like Yammy was shouting "HEY, DIPSHIT, I'M GOING TO ATTACK YOU WITH THE FASTEST TECHNIQUE WE HAVE SO YOU BETTER PREPARE YOUR GIGAI". In short span of time, when Bala, the FASTEST technique was being shot, he replaced himself with gigai. And still, gigai is a gigai after all. He can enter it without much effort and at least trick his opponent into thinking he is real. Using it as a decoy doesn't require him knowing when to use it. It's like Naruto and using a clone. Enemies don't even know when the swap happened.
    So what was your point in responding to my post on this front, my point has always been the advantage Shunsui gains early on. You asked which game was advantageous, my answer has always been every single one at its commencement, prior to Urahara figuring the rules out. And Shunsui doesn't become disadvantaged once Urahara figures it out, the rules apply to them equally, and they are once again on equal footing, in terms of the games. As for Takoni, we know what happens; Shunsui explained that whoever was higher wins. And your constant reference to the gigai assumes Urahara is aware of Shunsui's abilities, that he knows exactly when to utilise his gigai, while Shunsui's use of the shadow is a surprise attack, which Urahara has no prior knowledge of. It's well and good to say the gigai is an option, but it's another matter to suggest that Urahara is going to know when to use it without having full knowledge of Shunsui's ability. As I pointed out, Urahara is intelligent, he isn't prescient. And Urahara was hit by the first Bala, he admits as much. It is the subsequent Bala that he escapes using his gigai, which he admits is difficult to pull off. He likely utilised the time which Yammy, rather stupidly, decided to elucidate on his technique. The technique wasn't instantaneous. And Yammy doesn't know when it happened because he's an idiot, Luppi seems to have realised from a distance what was going on.

    Quote Quote:
    It's your opinion. In my opinion, Urahara's genius can turn the tables and be more advantegous than Kyoraku's experience.
    Fair enough. I tend to favour Shunsui's familiarity and experience with the use of his own techniques.

  3. #18
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

    So far what we have seen from Shunsui is his games and swordsman ship. His games can go either way and in swordsman ship and Kido both him and Urahara are almost equal (Urahara excel in spells and Kido) .
    So judging from this if Urahara figure out Shunsui's games use there to his advantage to defeat him.
    Also another X factor is urahara's bag of tricks. If he use his inventions as well, he may be able to to defeat shunsui.
    So all in all IMO Urahara wins

  4. #19
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

    If it comes down to Kageoni, Urahara has to call a color he wants to hit. Urahara wears green with black underneeth. Shunsui wears pink with white then black. How is Urahara going to do damage if Shunsui doesn't give him the rules? Even if he figures out without hints, he only can hit Sunsui and deal consinderable damage by using a like color while wearing a large amount of this color. So basically Urahara would have to strip to his under garments and find a place on Shunsui to strike that is covered with the same color he is wearing. With that in mind, Urahara loses, sorry. Once Kageoni is played or any game, Shunsui has the upper hand considerably. And he can switch games if he wants as evidenced by calling bushogoma then takaoni against Starrk. Theres a reason this guy is Captain Commander! Lets not forget you are forced to play KK's games. So once initiated Urahara is stuck. All these claims of kido etc. are as useful as Starrk firing ceros. They did nothing. He dodged them but the one directly on his body, and it merely gave his captains robe a stain.
    Last edited by freshseth83; August 06, 2013 at 04:42 AM.

  5. #20
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

    As you wish, we'll drop Ichigo topic. It's going too much off topic.


    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    No one likes getting hit point-blank, athough we've seen how Shunsui handles an even more powerful cero from point-blank range. And as you accept, unreleased Yammy was weak compared to the other Espada.
    Shunsui dodged every Cero Stark threw at him, but he got hit by one when Ukitake got owned. And that one was enough to damage him and make him fall to the ground. If you don't consider Yammy's cero a threat, so be it. There's still crazy reiatsu control, that enables Urahara use exactly the same force. Urahara showed 6 techniques with just his shikai. His control over his reiatsu makes me think, that he can make ANY technique with just his imagination. It's just a theory so far. Not that he really needs new techniques, 6 techniques he showed are already enough, they are making him versatile. Shibari and Hiasobi Benihime could make pretty big fireball. I don't think Urahara's techniques lack power or speed. I think they can pack quite a punch if Urahara actually tried. If someone can adjust his reiatsu output so skillfully, he has to have MUCH more power. At least it's like that in martial arts. If someone has perfect control over certain level of ability, he is in fact stronger, on level where he can control it so good.


    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    So what was your point in responding to my post on this front, my point has always been the advantage Shunsui gains early on. You asked which game was advantageous, my answer has always been every single one at its commencement, prior to Urahara figuring the rules out. And Shunsui doesn't become disadvantaged once Urahara figures it out, the rules apply to them equally, and they are once again on equal footing, in terms of the games.
    I don't think Shunsui's advantage at the beggining would change the outcome. You say that advantage at the beggining is enough to make Shunsui win. That's why I asked which games are so advantageous in your opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    As for Takoni, we know what happens; Shunsui explained that whoever was higher wins.
    Okay, what does it mean "win"? Even wiki says technique's strength is unknown, something about Starrk disrupting it or something.


    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    And your constant reference to the gigai assumes Urahara is aware of Shunsui's abilities, that he knows exactly when to utilise his gigai, while Shunsui's use of the shadow is a surprise attack, which Urahara has no prior knowledge of. It's well and good to say the gigai is an option, but it's another matter to suggest that Urahara is going to know when to use it without having full knowledge of Shunsui's ability.
    Gigai is a gigai. He can enter it and act like it was him, wait for Shunsui to attack. If Aizen could be fooled by this, Shunsui will be too. Urahara didn't really know Hogyoku's power extent, but he still used a gigai to rule Aizen.

    PS. I disregarded the last part as the reply above is about the same thing.

    ---------- Post added at 05:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:09 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by freshseth83 View Post
    If it comes down to Kageoni, Urahara has to call a color he wants to hit. Urahara wears green with black underneeth. Shunsui wears pink with white then black. How is Urahara going to do damage if Shunsui doesn't give him the rules? Even if he figures out without hints, he only can hit Sunsui and deal consinderable damage by using a like color while wearing a large amount of this color. So basically Urahara would have to strip to his under garments and find a place on Shunsui to strike that is covered with the same color he is wearing. With that in mind, Urahara loses, sorry. Once Kageoni is played or any game, Shunsui has the upper hand considerably. And he can switch games if he wants as evidenced by calling bushogoma then takaoni against Starrk. Theres a reason this guy is Captain Commander! Lets not forget you are forced to play KK's games. So once initiated Urahara is stuck. All these claims of kido etc. are as useful as Starrk firing ceros. They did nothing. He dodged them but the one directly on his body, and it merely gave his captains robe a stain.
    Noone said Urahara can't use his own techniques while playing games. Stark figured out Irooni in an instant. Kyoraku had to wait for Stark to call a colour. In Urahara's case it'd be the same.

    And Stark's cero made him fall. I didn't really care about stains on a robe when he was falling on the ground, while his friend could have been killed.

  6. #21
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

    I'm not quite sure how Irooni works - the Bleach Wiki description is confusing with the 'risk' bit. But nonetheless, to get the most damage you call a colour both you and your opponent are wearing. Now, they don't wear similar colours - the power to OHKO Starkk came from BOTH Shunsui and Starkk being mainly clad in the same colour. That ain't gunna happen with Urahara - it's still strong, but not unbeatable and not a guaranteed OHKO.

    Oh, and remember Shunsui has no control over his games - he takes time to get some of the more powerful ones active. He can't just Kageoni or Irooni straight away

    Epic Brofist!

  7. #22
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Shunsui dodged every Cero Stark threw at him, but he got hit by one when Ukitake got owned. And that one was enough to damage him and make him fall to the ground. If you don't consider Yammy's cero a threat, so be it. There's still crazy reiatsu control, that enables Urahara use exactly the same force. Urahara showed 6 techniques with just his shikai. His control over his reiatsu makes me think, that he can make ANY technique with just his imagination. It's just a theory so far. Not that he really needs new techniques, 6 techniques he showed are already enough, they are making him versatile. Shibari and Hiasobi Benihime could make pretty big fireball. I don't think Urahara's techniques lack power or speed. I think they can pack quite a punch if Urahara actually tried. If someone can adjust his reiatsu output so skillfully, he has to have MUCH more power. At least it's like that in martial arts. If someone has perfect control over certain level of ability, he is in fact stronger, on level where he can control it so good.
    Exactly, Shunsui showed impressive speed and endurance. It damaged him, but not by much, he came back to fight as though nothing had happened. I agree with most of what you point out about Urahara; particularly his versatility with his shikai. However, based on what we've seen, I cannot see them being much problem for Shunsui, in terms of speed or power. And you can say that Urahara could try harder, that could be true, he does have a few bad habits, but the same could be said for Shunsui; Shunsui put less effort into the battle at Karakura than anyone else, he didn't even seem moderately interested.

    Quote Quote:
    I don't think Shunsui's advantage at the beggining would change the outcome. You say that advantage at the beggining is enough to make Shunsui win. That's why I asked which games are so advantageous in your opinion.
    I don't think it's a massive advantage, but it is enough for me to favour him over Urahara. That slight advantage, in my mind, is more than Urahara's shikai provides for him.

    Quote Quote:
    Okay, what does it mean "win"? Even wiki says technique's strength is unknown, something about Starrk disrupting it or something.
    The strength of the technique is unknown, but the rules have been put forth. We never got the chance to witness the game, but Shunsui spoke on the way it works.

    Quote Quote:
    Gigai is a gigai. He can enter it and act like it was him, wait for Shunsui to attack. If Aizen could be fooled by this, Shunsui will be too. Urahara didn't really know Hogyoku's power extent, but he still used a gigai to rule Aizen.
    The Aizen example is flawed by virtue of the fact that Urahara entered the scene utilising his gigai. He didn't make use of his gigai during that battle, he only took to the field after Aizen attacked his gigai. Shunsui is going to be facing the real thing at the commencement of the battle, so he's going to have to switch out in the midst of fighting, rather than prepping a gigai prior to. Very, very different, if Urahara was allowed prep time, like he was against Aizen, his gigai might be effective, but he isn't provided with that here. From what we've seen, the gigai isn't instantaneous, it is difficult to use in the middle of a surprise attack. It is the reason why Urahara was hit by Yammy's first Bala, but was able to avoid the others when Yammy decided to give an extensive lesson on his technique before finishing his opponent.

  8. #23
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Exactly, Shunsui showed impressive speed and endurance. It damaged him, but not by much, he came back to fight as though nothing had happened. I agree with most of what you point out about Urahara; particularly his versatility with his shikai. However, based on what we've seen, I cannot see them being much problem for Shunsui, in terms of speed or power. And you can say that Urahara could try harder, that could be true, he does have a few bad habits, but the same could be said for Shunsui; Shunsui put less effort into the battle at Karakura than anyone else, he didn't even seem moderately interested.
    And there goes matter of opinion again. You think Shunsui can handle Urahara's techniques and playing his own games. I think Urahara, knowing his genius, will fare better in battle with so much variables and things going on. When Urahara tried his techniques were quite powerful and fast, when Shunsui tried, he killed Stark. Urahara just has more up his sleeve than Kyoraku, as he can play Kyoraku's games after witnessing them once or twice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    The strength of the technique is unknown, but the rules have been put forth. We never got the chance to witness the game, but Shunsui spoke on the way it works.
    But we can't really judge the outcome with this technique. It's like you saying Urahara's shikai techniques are weak, not Urahara himself. How do you know, that Takaoni isn't weak compared to other games?

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    The Aizen example is flawed by virtue of the fact that Urahara entered the scene utilising his gigai. He didn't make use of his gigai during that battle, he only took to the field after Aizen attacked his gigai. Shunsui is going to be facing the real thing at the commencement of the battle, so he's going to have to switch out in the midst of fighting, rather than prepping a gigai prior to.
    If he can attack in gigai we can rule out difficulties with switching. Bushogama or any smoke or fire creates opening to switch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Very, very different, if Urahara was allowed prep time, like he was against Aizen, his gigai might be effective, but he isn't provided with that here. From what we've seen, the gigai isn't instantaneous, it is difficult to use in the middle of a surprise attack. It is the reason why Urahara was hit by Yammy's first Bala, but was able to avoid the others when Yammy decided to give an extensive lesson on his technique before finishing his opponent.
    I don't recall Urahara being hit with first Bala.

    About prep time, I have no idea how it is. He can take his equipment to battle, who says he can't use it at the beggining?

  9. #24
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazu-Sama View Post
    I'm not quite sure how Irooni works - the Bleach Wiki description is confusing with the 'risk' bit. But nonetheless, to get the most damage you call a colour both you and your opponent are wearing. Now, they don't wear similar colours - the power to OHKO Starkk came from BOTH Shunsui and Starkk being mainly clad in the same colour. That ain't gunna happen with Urahara - it's still strong, but not unbeatable and not a guaranteed OHKO.
    No it didn't! Starrk's best shot was white, Shunsui even stated that after he called white! Then Starrk died when Shunsui called black. Because the power of that strike was relative to the amount of BLACK COLOR Shunsui had at that time. Urahara has no way to deduce this if Shunsui goes for the kill with his first turn.

    Quote Quote:
    Oh, and remember Shunsui has no control over his games - he takes time to get some of the more powerful ones active. He can't just Kageoni or Irooni straight away
    Thats wrong as well. If he didn't have control he wouldn't have been the person calling out which game to play.

    ---------- Post added at 01:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:03 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Noone said Urahara can't use his own techniques while playing games. Stark figured out Irooni in an instant. Kyoraku had to wait for Stark to call a colour. In Urahara's case it'd be the same.
    Actually, the manga said he can't use his techniques. Shunsui explains in chapter 374 that once you're in KK's reiatsu, you have to obey the rules of the game, Shunsui included. And Starrk had help, Shunsui also said he planned to give him hints. By striking gray, and wearing no gray, he gave Starrk a 'freebie' by slightly cutting his arm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    And Stark's cero made him fall. I didn't really care about stains on a robe when he was falling on the ground, while his friend could have been killed.
    He took a dive. Lisa caught him "playing dead" in chapter 365. He wasn't hurt by Starrk.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    And there goes matter of opinion again. You think Shunsui can handle Urahara's techniques and playing his own games. I think Urahara, knowing his genius, will fare better in battle with so much variables and things going on. When Urahara tried his techniques were quite powerful and fast, when Shunsui tried, he killed Stark. Urahara just has more up his sleeve than Kyoraku, as he can play Kyoraku's games after witnessing them once or twice.
    Obviously most of this is opinion, considering that we haven't seen much of either these two. However, what Urahara has shown with his shikai, offensively, isn't enough to handle Shunsui. He has always utilised diversions, most commonly created by others, to successfully attack with his shikai. And yes, Urahara has more up his sleeve, I just doubt the abilities of those techniques to concern Shunsui much.

    Quote Quote:
    But we can't really judge the outcome with this technique. It's like you saying Urahara's shikai techniques are weak, not Urahara himself. How do you know, that Takaoni isn't weak compared to other games?
    I'm not judging the outcome. However, like any other game, the individual that knows the rules is going to fair better. Until Urahara figures out this game, Shunsui is going to have an advantage. Even if it weak, it is still a slight advantage to Shunsui. I'm not pointing to this game for a fatal blow, but it is simply one more leg up for Shunsui.

    Quote Quote:
    If he can attack in gigai we can rule out difficulties with switching. Bushogama or any smoke or fire creates opening to switch.
    We haven't seen his gigai engage in combat, it's only been there to take a blow. And I doubt that Urahara is going to be able to switch out without Shunsui noticing. Urahara himself pointed out the difficulty in utilising his gigai, and the only time he successfully used it in the middle of battle was when he was granted time and space, and a lack of attention, from his idiotic opponent at the time.

    Quote Quote:
    I don't recall Urahara being hit with first Bala.
    After Urahara reappears behind Yammy, he notes that he isn't going to get hit by any more of Yammy's Bala, indicating that he was hit by the first one. And we saw Yammy take a long break to exclaim about his technique in between the first attack and the subsequent barrage, that would be when Urahara utilised his gigai. Luppi actually comments on it from a distance, suggesting he noticed Urahara's switch.

    Quote Quote:
    About prep time, I have no idea how it is. He can take his equipment to battle, who says he can't use it at the beggining?
    The fighters aren't given prep time. He can take his equipment, and he can use it at the beginning. However, if he uses it at the beginning of the battle, he is already going to be face to face with Shunsui, he isn't going to be able to pull it off without Shunsui noticing. When he used it against Aizen, he utilised his gigai before he approached Aizen. That setup before was crucial because switching with his gigai takes time that isn't going to be available generally in the middle of battle, and the advantage the gigai provides is the element of surprise you gain from your opponent thinking they've attacked you when you're waiting in the wings. If someone notices you using it, it's pretty pointless. Unless Shunsui decides to go on a rant and look away, like Yammy decided to do, Urahara is unlikely to be able to use his gigai effectively.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

    Quote Originally Posted by freshseth83 View Post
    Thats wrong as well. If he didn't have control he wouldn't have been the person calling out which game to play.
    He says which games they're currently playing. Not which they'll play. He even said, that games are dependant on Katen Kyokotsu's mood and he couldn't play some games earlier.

    Quote Originally Posted by freshseth83 View Post
    Actually, the manga said he can't use his techniques. Shunsui explains in chapter 374 that once you're in KK's reiatsu, you have to obey the rules of the game, Shunsui included. And Starrk had help, Shunsui also said he planned to give him hints. By striking gray, and wearing no gray, he gave Starrk a 'freebie' by slightly cutting his arm.
    Which means nothing. He has to play games. Nothin said about not using own abilities. Stark shot Ceros while playing game. Urahara CAN use his techniques while playing.

    Quote Originally Posted by freshseth83 View Post
    He took a dive. Lisa caught him "playing dead" in chapter 365. He wasn't hurt by Starrk.
    Here we go again... he didn't take a dive. He was lying there, when Vaizards came, he decided they can take care of it (he DOESN'T like fighting) and played dead. He was clearly bruised back then. I think we already discussed that topic. Ukitake was attacked and was dying, Kyoraku's best friend. Playing dead would make him a pussy and a coward. He fell BEFORE Vaizards came, so we can exclude falling on purpose. He took damage, couldn't help Ukitake, Vaizards came, he played dead (his Lisa is there after all and he looks pitiful, someone else can handle the fighting), which perfectly suits his character and personality. Playing dead while his best friend can die, does not.

    __________________________________________________________________________________________


    Quote Quote:
    Obviously most of this is opinion, considering that we haven't seen much of either these two. However, what Urahara has shown with his shikai, offensively, isn't enough to handle Shunsui. He has always utilised diversions, most commonly created by others, to successfully attack with his shikai. And yes, Urahara has more up his sleeve, I just doubt the abilities of those techniques to concern Shunsui much.
    The strength of techniques is enough to concern Shunsui. He needed diversion to catch Aizen. Shunsui isn't that fast and strong. Using point-blank Nake isn't really impossible. Ichigo can handle fighting with Getsuga, Urahara would handle fighting with Nake while playing games.

    Quote Quote:
    I'm not judging the outcome. However, like any other game, the individual that knows the rules is going to fair better. Until Urahara figures out this game, Shunsui is going to have an advantage. Even if it weak, it is still a slight advantage to Shunsui. I'm not pointing to this game for a fatal blow, but it is simply one more leg up for Shunsui.
    Well, so far it has been no advantage at all against Stark, so I don't take it into account.

    Quote Quote:
    We haven't seen his gigai engage in combat, it's only been there to take a blow. And I doubt that Urahara is going to be able to switch out without Shunsui noticing. Urahara himself pointed out the difficulty in utilising his gigai, and the only time he successfully used it in the middle of battle was when he was granted time and space, and a lack of attention, from his idiotic opponent at the time.
    Well, if gigai can't attack, then he switched with his gigai in front of Aizen. He commented on how difficult it is when he fought Yammy, but it was probably the first time he actually used it, so I understand it can be hard. In Aizen fight he pulled it off skillfully.

    Quote Quote:
    After Urahara reappears behind Yammy, he notes that he isn't going to get hit by any more of Yammy's Bala, indicating that he was hit by the first one. And we saw Yammy take a long break to exclaim about his technique in between the first attack and the subsequent barrage, that would be when Urahara utilised his gigai. Luppi actually comments on it from a distance, suggesting he noticed Urahara's switch.
    "I won't be hit by any more of this" doesn't mean he got hit for me. It can mean "It's no use shooting any more of them, they won't hit me" IMO. About Luppi seeing it, I'll check the manga, but later, I don't have time at the moment.

    Quote Quote:
    The fighters aren't given prep time. He can take his equipment, and he can use it at the beginning. However, if he uses it at the beginning of the battle, he is already going to be face to face with Shunsui, he isn't going to be able to pull it off without Shunsui noticing. When he used it against Aizen, he utilised his gigai before he approached Aizen. That setup before was crucial because switching with his gigai takes time that isn't going to be available generally in the middle of battle, and the advantage the gigai provides is the element of surprise you gain from your opponent thinking they've attacked you when you're waiting in the wings. If someone notices you using it, it's pretty pointless. Unless Shunsui decides to go on a rant and look away, like Yammy decided to do, Urahara is unlikely to be able to use his gigai effectively.
    Shunsui doesn't need to look away. Shunsui says the name of a game, Urahara instinctevely shoots Kido in 30s like against Aizen, blocking Kyoraku's sight completely, he switches and looks what happens when Shunsui is executing his technique.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    The strength of techniques is enough to concern Shunsui. He needed diversion to catch Aizen. Shunsui isn't that fast and strong. Using point-blank Nake isn't really impossible. Ichigo can handle fighting with Getsuga, Urahara would handle fighting with Nake while playing games.
    This is where I disagree. We haven't seen Urahara use these techniques in a one on one situation to bring down someone of Shunsui's calibre. He needed a diversion to catch Aizen because he wouldn't have been able to complete the technique without it. Urahara hasn't hit anyone with his shikai without a diversion of some sort.

    Quote Quote:
    Well, so far it has been no advantage at all against Stark, so I don't take it into account.
    Just because Starrk didn't end up being particularly bothered by it doesn't discount its use.

    Quote Quote:
    Well, if gigai can't attack, then he switched with his gigai in front of Aizen. He commented on how difficult it is when he fought Yammy, but it was probably the first time he actually used it, so I understand it can be hard. In Aizen fight he pulled it off skillfully.
    Based on what? When Urahara came into Aizen's view he didn't attack until Aizen had already pierced his gigai. We haven't seen Urahara's gigai attack. And he utilised his gigai prior to being noticed by Aizen. There wasn't any switch during battle. He had time to prep a gigai and pull off a surprise attack.

    Quote Quote:
    "I won't be hit by any more of this" doesn't mean he got hit for me. It can mean "It's no use shooting any more of them, they won't hit me" IMO. About Luppi seeing it, I'll check the manga, but later, I don't have time at the moment.
    In your opinion? That doesn't make any sense, you've completely changed the statement. If he says he won't be hit by any more, it means that he has been by one already. And how is that you're attempting to argue with me about the events that occurred with little memory of the events, or without even bothering to check the manga.

    Quote Quote:
    Shunsui doesn't need to look away. Shunsui says the name of a game, Urahara instinctevely shoots Kido in 30s like against Aizen, blocking Kyoraku's sight completely, he switches and looks what happens when Shunsui is executing his technique.
    Exactly which kido spell is he going to pull off to completely shield himself from Shunsui's view, set up a gigai, and take up a separate position? And even if he pulls off the gigai, it isn't sturdy. The first attack is going to destroy it, and then that trick is done for. You've used the gigai as an answer to Kageoni, but you've yet to show how Urahara is going to pull of the gigai successfully, and do it at the exact right moment without prior knowledge of Shunsui's abilities.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    This is where I disagree. We haven't seen Urahara use these techniques in a one on one situation to bring down someone of Shunsui's calibre. He needed a diversion to catch Aizen because he wouldn't have been able to complete the technique without it. Urahara hasn't hit anyone with his shikai without a diversion of some sort.
    And using diversion is one of Kyoraku's forte's too, right? His shikai is one big trickery and diversion itself. Urahara won't just go spamming his techniques, he'd blind Shunsui, trick him, lure him into trap, anything. It's not strange we haven't seen Urahara taking on someone on "Shunsui's caliber", as there weren't an enemy like that, Aizen and Juha excluded. Those are Ichigo's opoonents. Urahara overpowered weaker opponents, which leads me to believe he can wound Shunsui, if not overpower.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Just because Starrk didn't end up being particularly bothered by it doesn't discount its use.
    Seriously, let's drop Taka oni topic, it was used once and all we saw is Shunsui being higher, nothing else. That technique did literally nothing. It's like we were talking about Kenpachi's Shikai right now, because it did speak to him, nothing else. We can't judge this technique just because Shunsui wanted to use it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Based on what? When Urahara came into Aizen's view he didn't attack until Aizen had already pierced his gigai. We haven't seen Urahara's gigai attack. And he utilised his gigai prior to being noticed by Aizen. There wasn't any switch during battle. He had time to prep a gigai and pull off a surprise attack.
    There is an attack:

    http://www.mangareader.net/94-50820-...apter-401.html

    And there is small talk:

    http://www.mangareader.net/94-51305-...apter-402.html
    http://www.mangareader.net/94-51305-...apter-402.html

    And there is Aizen's attack

    http://www.mangareader.net/94-51305-...apter-402.html

    There are 3 options:

    1. Urahara attacked from Gigai (he is expert with making all sorts of them, normal, reiatsu sucking, human/shinigami shells), which is what I wrote recently
    2. He switched in that instant.
    3. He attacked, (and Aizen didn't feel his reiatsu at all), quickly swapped with his gigai, (Aizen still didn't sense his reiatsu at all), started talking from gigai. And here I thought he didn't have his reiatsu hiding cloak with him.

    If you have another theory how he pulled it off, please don't hesitate to write it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    In your opinion? That doesn't make any sense, you've completely changed the statement. If he says he won't be hit by any more, it means that he has been by one already. And how is that you're attempting to argue with me about the events that occurred with little memory of the events, or without even bothering to check the manga.
    I didn't change anything in the original statement. "I won't be hit by any more of them" doesn't necessarily mean he was hit by one at all. Maybe if you used the proper translation:

    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...35-page-8.html

    There wouldn't be this discussion. "Hit again" is more suggestive than "any more" and it can't be used in any other context.

    Btw, would you mind showing me where Luppi said anything that would indicate he saw the swap? I would really appreciate it.

    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...4-page-14.html

    Nothing there. On the contrary, Luppi was SURE Urahara will die and said how it's a pity he wouldn't be the one to finish Urahara who messed with him.

    It's funny how you accuse me of discussing with little memory of certain event using half-assed assumption like that. And if we add the fact you had pretty poor memory of Aizen vs Urahara, we can easily say who is the one who doesn't bother checking manga. I'm sorry, that I have better things to do than discussing a manga topic on an internet forum. It's 15:25 now, people are working, you know?

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Exactly which kido spell is he going to pull off to completely shield himself from Shunsui's view, set up a gigai, and take up a separate position? And even if he pulls off the gigai, it isn't sturdy. The first attack is going to destroy it, and then that trick is done for. You've used the gigai as an answer to Kageoni, but you've yet to show how Urahara is going to pull of the gigai successfully, and do it at the exact right moment without prior knowledge of Shunsui's abilities.
    http://www.mangareader.net/94-52277-...apter-405.html

    That one. Btw, funny like you didn't even bother to check the manga even tough I said I meant kido used on Aizen. But you still dare to accuse me of not checking the manga while discussing. While Shunsui is blind for few seconds (he can't negate attack like Aizen, it will take him some time to deal with aftereffect), he has plenty of time to switch with his gigai. Taking separate position isn't problem, if Aizen didn't see it coming at all. Portable gigai isn't a counter to Kage Oni, it's a counter to any technique that can be used. Shunsui says the name of a game he uses. So much for a surprise attack... Urahara will know when Shunsui is using his game and can use his gigai then.

    I don't have to PROVE Urahara can use gigai to lure Shunsui with Kage oni. It's a fictional manga and if we could prove anything we wouldn't be there. You have yet to prove Shunsui is smarter than Aizen and can't be fooled like Aizen. You demand me to prove everything, but you're proving nothing. Knowing you can't prove it you want to disprove me by saying I can't prove it. All we can do is show basis for our opinion, and that's what I'm doing, unlike you. Don't use word "prove" if you don't know it's meaning.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    And using diversion is one of Kyoraku's forte's too, right? His shikai is one big trickery and diversion itself. Urahara won't just go spamming his techniques, he'd blind Shunsui, trick him, lure him into trap, anything. It's not strange we haven't seen Urahara taking on someone on "Shunsui's caliber", as there weren't an enemy like that, Aizen and Juha excluded. Those are Ichigo's opoonents. Urahara overpowered weaker opponents, which leads me to believe he can wound Shunsui, if not overpower.
    This isn't exactly an endorsement of Urahara. And Urahara's diversions have mostly been other individuals, hardly helpful here. And I don't doubt he can wound Shunsui, I just favour Shunsui as the winner.

    Quote Quote:
    Seriously, let's drop Taka oni topic, it was used once and all we saw is Shunsui being higher, nothing else. That technique did literally nothing. It's like we were talking about Kenpachi's Shikai right now, because it did speak to him, nothing else. We can't judge this technique just because Shunsui wanted to use it.
    Fair enough.

    Quote Quote:
    There is an attack:

    http://www.mangareader.net/94-50820-...apter-401.html

    And there is small talk:

    http://www.mangareader.net/94-51305-...apter-402.html
    http://www.mangareader.net/94-51305-...apter-402.html

    And there is Aizen's attack

    http://www.mangareader.net/94-51305-...apter-402.html

    There are 3 options:

    1. Urahara attacked from Gigai (he is expert with making all sorts of them, normal, reiatsu sucking, human/shinigami shells), which is what I wrote recently
    2. He switched in that instant.
    3. He attacked, (and Aizen didn't feel his reiatsu at all), quickly swapped with his gigai, (Aizen still didn't sense his reiatsu at all), started talking from gigai. And here I thought he didn't have his reiatsu hiding cloak with him.

    If you have another theory how he pulled it off, please don't hesitate to write it.
    I'm aware of the sequence of events. Your first theory assumes an ability for a gigai that we haven't seen, it requires us to give the ability to utilise kido to a gigai. Your second assumes that Urahara can instantaneously switch with his gigai and move to another spot without someone of Aizen's calibre noticing, when Urahara himself has pointed out that the gigai is difficult to use, and the only time we've been witness to Urahara pulling out a gigai in view it wasn't particularly quick or subtle. Your third is feasible, but is most likely possible because Urahara wasn't the focus of Aizen's attention. My thoughts are that Urahara prepares a gigai, attacks Aizen, when Aizen turns the gigai having already been prepared is in place, and then Aizen takes out gigai. Simple. And Aizen makes note that he should've been paying more attention; he never imagined Urahara would attempt to use such a petty trick against him. At the end of the day, Urahara was able to use that ruse because he had time to privately prepare before the start of any engagement between the two of them, while he isn't allowed prep here.

    Quote Quote:
    I didn't change anything in the original statement. "I won't be hit by any more of them" doesn't necessarily mean he was hit by one at all. Maybe if you used the proper translation:
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...35-page-8.html
    There wouldn't be this discussion. "Hit again" is more suggestive than "any more" and it can't be used in any other context.
    Those two translations indicate the same thing. Regardless of whether or not you're pleased with my choice of translation, the conclusion of both is that Urahara was hit by Yammy's Bala, and only utilised his gigai after given time and space. Maybe if you'd bothered to check before insisting on another sequence of events, we could've avoided this. My point remains, Urahara wasn't able to utilise his gigai in the midst of a surprise attack.

    Quote Quote:
    Btw, would you mind showing me where Luppi said anything that would indicate he saw the swap? I would really appreciate it.
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...4-page-14.html
    Nothing there. On the contrary, Luppi was SURE Urahara will die and said how it's a pity he wouldn't be the one to finish Urahara who messed with him.
    After going to this translation, it seems you're right. The alternative translation seemed less clear, I misinterpreted it to mean that Yammy was the one going to die.

    Quote Quote:
    It's funny how you accuse me of discussing with little memory of certain event using half-assed assumption like that. And if we add the fact you had pretty poor memory of Aizen vs Urahara, we can easily say who is the one who doesn't bother checking manga. I'm sorry, that I have better things to do than discussing a manga topic on an internet forum. It's 15:25 now, people are working, you know?
    I'll admit to my confusion about Luppi's comment, but exactly how did I have poor memory of Aizen v Urahara? And quite frankly it's a bit rich to argue about bothering to check the manga when we could've saved a lot of time on the discussion about Yammy's Bala if you'd done so ages ago.

    Quote Quote:
    http://www.mangareader.net/94-52277-...apter-405.html

    That one. Btw, funny like you didn't even bother to check the manga even tough I said I meant kido used on Aizen. But you still dare to accuse me of not checking the manga while discussing. While Shunsui is blind for few seconds (he can't negate attack like Aizen, it will take him some time to deal with aftereffect), he has plenty of time to switch with his gigai. Taking separate position isn't problem, if Aizen didn't see it coming at all. Portable gigai isn't a counter to Kage Oni, it's a counter to any technique that can be used. Shunsui says the name of a game he uses. So much for a surprise attack... Urahara will know when Shunsui is using his game and can use his gigai then.
    It's funny how that's an offensive technique, which only allowed Yoruichi to come in and attack Aizen. Aizen knew it was misdirection, and didn't even bother to dodge it because he wasn't concerned with Yoruichi. He blocked her first attack. So suggesting I was to somehow pick that kido from the manga is ridiculous. And this whole theory about Shunsui being blinded comes from where? Shunsui could dodge it, or block it. It's a level 30 kido without an incantation, it isn't going to be particularly problematic. And as I pointed out, even if Urahara manages somehow to utilise his gigai once, that's it. Shunsui has more than one game, and the greatest threat is Kageoni. If he is caught unawares by Shunsui's use of the shadows, the battle is over.

    Quote Quote:
    I don't have to PROVE Urahara can use gigai to lure Shunsui with Kage oni. It's a fictional manga and if we could prove anything we wouldn't be there. You have yet to prove Shunsui is smarter than Aizen and can't be fooled like Aizen. You demand me to prove everything, but you're proving nothing. Knowing you can't prove it you want to disprove me by saying I can't prove it. All we can do is show basis for our opinion, and that's what I'm doing, unlike you. Don't use word "prove" if you don't know it's meaning.
    I don't know what the purpose of this rant is considering that nowhere in the post you respond to is the word 'prove' utilised. I haven't suggested that Shunsui is smarter than Aizen. I've suggested that the only reason Urahara was able to effectively trick Aizen with his gigai is because of a combination prep time allowed and Aizen's arrogance. Obviously, arguing for the outcome of this match is based on opinion. However, we utilise facts to form these. Apparently, you're incapable of having a debate without going off the deep end when someone critiques your stance or has a different take on things. Everyone here gets it wrong sometimes, and has strenuous debates with others, you seemingly need to relax and take a breather.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Your third is feasible, but is most likely possible because Urahara wasn't the focus of Aizen's attention. My thoughts are that Urahara prepares a gigai, attacks Aizen, when Aizen turns the gigai having already been prepared is in place, and then Aizen takes out gigai. Simple. And Aizen makes note that he should've been paying more attention; he never imagined Urahara would attempt to use such a petty trick against him. At the end of the day, Urahara was able to use that ruse because he had time to privately prepare before the start of any engagement between the two of them, while he isn't allowed prep here.
    So how did he attack? After attacking he was just standing there with Benihime, then talked, Aizen didn't let his sight off him once. Or he made new staff for him, so his gigai can hold it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    I'll admit to my confusion about Luppi's comment, but exactly how did I have poor memory of Aizen v Urahara? And quite frankly it's a bit rich to argue about bothering to check the manga when we could've saved a lot of time on the discussion about Yammy's Bala if you'd done so ages ago.
    After seeing how you interpreted Urahara's performance against Aizen I figured you had to forget some panels.

    and I know we could have saved a lot of time, but working on a certain project and writing a reply in a free time is really tiring. If I replied now we'd have been left with 2-3 topics that we already sorted out and we'll still be talking about Ichigo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    It's funny how that's an offensive technique, which only allowed Yoruichi to come in and attack Aizen. Aizen knew it was misdirection, and didn't even bother to dodge it because he wasn't concerned with Yoruichi. He blocked her first attack. So suggesting I was to somehow pick that kido from the manga is ridiculous. And this whole theory about Shunsui being blinded comes from where? Shunsui could dodge it, or block it. It's a level 30 kido without an incantation, it isn't going to be particularly problematic.
    Noone said anything about taking it on or blocking. It's just to make Shunsui occupied. Technique itself is pretty fast. If you want to say anything Urahara uses is too slow for Shunsui, then Soifon or Yoruichi should be invincible. There is a limit to shinigami's speed. Urahara was a part of 2nd Squad and he is particularly skillful when it comes to Hakuda and Shunpo, he was Yoruichi's partner for a long while. I'm sure Urahara is around the same level of shunpo as Shunsui. That's why I don't think Shunsui can just dodge everything and outrun Urahara.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    And as I pointed out, even if Urahara manages somehow to utilise his gigai once, that's it. Shunsui has more than one game, and the greatest threat is Kageoni. If he is caught unawares by Shunsui's use of the shadows, the battle is over.
    I think we already discussed Kage Oni not being able to one-shot someone like Urahara, didn't we?

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    I don't know what the purpose of this rant is considering that nowhere in the post you respond to is the word 'prove' utilised. I haven't suggested that Shunsui is smarter than Aizen. I've suggested that the only reason Urahara was able to effectively trick Aizen with his gigai is because of a combination prep time allowed and Aizen's arrogance. Obviously, arguing for the outcome of this match is based on opinion. However, we utilise facts to form these. Apparently, you're incapable of having a debate without going off the deep end when someone critiques your stance or has a different take on things.
    Yeah, because "yet to show [put random argument there]" doesn't mean prove it... xD I can't possibly show it, as it never happened, right? I can only show you basis for my opinion. You're not doing any of it. Show me some panels to prove, that Shunsui can't possibly be fooled with gigai. You just assume he is perfect and nothing works on him. I can say, that Urahara can use a shield on his back just like Aizen did with his neck when Ichigo attacked. Knowing Urahara is a master of kido, he obviously CAN do it. And then either Kyoraku comes out of shadow in Urahara's sight, which gives him LOTS of time to react, making Kage Oni as useful as normal slash with shunpo, or he attacks his back and he hits a shield. And I can do that, those were techniques used in manga. I can say he can use his shield on the front, Kido on the back and just walk like that and wait for Kyoraku to attack and counterattack with Nake. I can make up lots of excuse to make Kyoraku's abilities useless, just like you disregard everything I say with "Not strong enough" "He can dodge it" "He won't be caught off guard" "He will see a swap", of course, without showing any panels.

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