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Thread: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

  1. #31
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    So how did he attack? After attacking he was just standing there with Benihime, then talked, Aizen didn't let his sight off him once. Or he made new staff for him, so his gigai can hold it.
    Aizen had already been hit by the attack by the time he turned to look at Urahara. We don't see Urahara attack, we see him, and what I presume to be a gigai, standing there after the attack.

    Quote Quote:
    After seeing how you interpreted Urahara's performance against Aizen I figured you had to forget some panels.

    and I know we could have saved a lot of time, but working on a certain project and writing a reply in a free time is really tiring. If I replied now we'd have been left with 2-3 topics that we already sorted out and we'll still be talking about Ichigo.
    You aren't the only one with other things to do, but fair enough.

    Quote Quote:
    Noone said anything about taking it on or blocking. It's just to make Shunsui occupied. Technique itself is pretty fast. If you want to say anything Urahara uses is too slow for Shunsui, then Soifon or Yoruichi should be invincible. There is a limit to shinigami's speed. Urahara was a part of 2nd Squad and he is particularly skillful when it comes to Hakuda and Shunpo, he was Yoruichi's partner for a long while. I'm sure Urahara is around the same level of shunpo as Shunsui. That's why I don't think Shunsui can just dodge everything and outrun Urahara.
    My point is that if Shunsui blocks or avoids it, Urahara can't use it to hide his actions. I didn't say Shunsui could avoid everything. I just said he could likely avoid a level 30 kido spell from a distance, along with the level of attacks we've seen so far from Urahara's shikai.

    Quote Quote:
    I think we already discussed Kage Oni not being able to one-shot someone like Urahara, didn't we?
    I don't remember particularly agreeing to that conclusion, but I do remember saying that it would be, at the very least, a serious injury. Urahara hasn't shown anywhere near the endurance of Shunsui.

    Quote Quote:
    Yeah, because "yet to show [put random argument there]" doesn't mean prove it... xD I can't possibly show it, as it never happened, right? I can only show you basis for my opinion. You're not doing any of it. Show me some panels to prove, that Shunsui can't possibly be fooled with gigai. You just assume he is perfect and nothing works on him. I can say, that Urahara can use a shield on his back just like Aizen did with his neck when Ichigo attacked. Knowing Urahara is a master of kido, he obviously CAN do it. And then either Kyoraku comes out of shadow in Urahara's sight, which gives him LOTS of time to react, making Kage Oni as useful as normal slash with shunpo, or he attacks his back and he hits a shield. And I can do that, those were techniques used in manga. I can say he can use his shield on the front, Kido on the back and just walk like that and wait for Kyoraku to attack and counterattack with Nake. I can make up lots of excuse to make Kyoraku's abilities useless, just like you disregard everything I say with "Not strong enough" "He can dodge it" "He won't be caught off guard" "He will see a swap", of course, without showing any panels.
    It doesn't, and particularly not in the context I used it. I just argued that you haven't put forward a convincing argument for Urahara's effective use of his gigai. So far you've indicated that he could utilise it at the beginning; this is unlikely to be effective because Shunsui would be very much aware, proposed that Urahara could use a level 30 kido spell to blind Shunsui so that he could so without being watched; I questioned the effectiveness of that kido particularly based on what we know of level 30 kido and Aizen's response to it, and alternatively early on you suggested that Urahara would be able to pull it off in response to a surprise attack, and I pointed to Yammy's surprise attack on Urahara. And asking someone to prove that something is impossible is pointless. I don't think he's perfect, I just think that when it comes to what we've seen, he's superior. You could say that Urahara could use things that we haven't seen from him. If you start with that, I could just point out that Shunsui is a senior captain and he would obviously be able to utilise high level kido. However, we only attribute to individuals what those individuals have shown. The difference between you proposing abilities that Urahara hasn't shown to aid him in this battle and me extrapolating what Shunsui's shown to apply to this battle is obvious. There are rules in this tournament for that very reason. Shunsui has shown impressive speed and great endurance, we've seen him avoid faster attacks than what Urahara has shown, and we've seen him handle stronger attacks than Urahara has shown, so my argument is based on these things. I don't disregard what you say, I simply point out that I consider the strategies you propose for Urahara to be insufficient to win this match. Urahara is exceptional, but the reality remains that the circumstance of his battles have been a mixed bag. He barely fights and when he does, he's planned and plotted and prepared. That has been one of the things that made him so effective against the likes of Aizen, but he isn't allowed that here. So against someone of Shunsui's power, he is likely to fail, in my opinion.

  2. #32
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Aizen had already been hit by the attack by the time he turned to look at Urahara. We don't see Urahara attack, we see him, and what I presume to be a gigai, standing there after the attack.
    With Benihime. A gigai. With zanpakuto.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    My point is that if Shunsui blocks or avoids it, Urahara can't use it to hide his actions. I didn't say Shunsui could avoid everything. I just said he could likely avoid a level 30 kido spell from a distance, along with the level of attacks we've seen so far from Urahara's shikai.
    Not really, Urahara doesn't have to hit him to create distraction. While Shunsui dodges or when the technique is going in his direction, Urahara has a moment to pull it off. You will probably think it's not enough for him. I think Urahara's capable of it.



    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    I don't remember particularly agreeing to that conclusion, but I do remember saying that it would be, at the very least, a serious injury. Urahara hasn't shown anywhere near the endurance of Shunsui.
    You said that it's not advantage that would change the whole outcome, but it'd be an upper-hand, an advantage for Shunsui at the beggining.


    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    It doesn't, and particularly not in the context I used it. I just argued that you haven't put forward a convincing argument for Urahara's effective use of his gigai.
    And I can't, because we have two different takes on both fighter's capabilities. Something that is convincing enough for me is not enough for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    And asking someone to prove that something is impossible is pointless. I don't think he's perfect, I just think that when it comes to what we've seen, he's superior. You could say that Urahara could use things that we haven't seen from him. If you start with that, I could just point out that Shunsui is a senior captain and he would obviously be able to utilise high level kido.
    Actually, the only thing you could prove is he can shoot Kido in 30s, as they're a test in Shinigami Academy, that Shunsui graduated from. Other than that, no Kido used by him AT ALL. Urahara used more complex Kidos and his zanpakuto technique is very similar to that shield Kido. That alone is enough to assume, that he could use it if he wanted.


    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    However, we only attribute to individuals what those individuals have shown. The difference between you proposing abilities that Urahara hasn't shown to aid him in this battle and me extrapolating what Shunsui's shown to apply to this battle is obvious. There are rules in this tournament for that very reason. Shunsui has shown impressive speed and great endurance, we've seen him avoid faster attacks than what Urahara has shown, and we've seen him handle stronger attacks than Urahara has shown, so my argument is based on these things. I don't disregard what you say, I simply point out that I consider the strategies you propose for Urahara to be insufficient to win this match. Urahara is exceptional, but the reality remains that the circumstance of his battles have been a mixed bag. He barely fights and when he does, he's planned and plotted and prepared. That has been one of the things that made him so effective against the likes of Aizen, but he isn't allowed that here. So against someone of Shunsui's power, he is likely to fail, in my opinion.
    Shunsui dodged faster attacks than Urahara has shown? Show me. His fight with Stark isn't real indication. Urahara is fast himself, but we haven't seen much of it. From what we've seen we can say he is fairly fast. If he can somehow react to any of Aizen's attacks he is still better than Kyoraku, who got taken out in one attack.

    You say tactics I suggest are not enough to win, I think they are. Not like you'd accept any of my tactics as possible. If you suggested any tactic for Kyoraku I'd probably found something to make it not work.

    There's nothing about Kido in rules. Considering Urahara showed Kidos in 90s and 80s we can be sure he can execute everything that is below it with ease. That Kido is just like Taka Oni. Shunsui tried to use it, he failed, but you still use it as argument. And we only have vague understanding of how it works, not enough. I can't say Urahara can use Byakurai because he didn't use it in manga too? It's Hado #4.

  3. #33
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    With Benihime. A gigai. With zanpakuto.
    I'm confused. So, it's holding something that resembles Benihime. It would be a pretty crappy replacement if it couldn't have items that resembled those of the owner. It'd be pretty obvious to an opponent if the guy suddenly loses his weapon.

    Quote Quote:
    Not really, Urahara doesn't have to hit him to create distraction. While Shunsui dodges or when the technique is going in his direction, Urahara has a moment to pull it off. You will probably think it's not enough for him. I think Urahara's capable of it.
    Yes, I don't think it's enough time.

    Quote Quote:
    You said that it's not advantage that would change the whole outcome, but it'd be an upper-hand, an advantage for Shunsui at the beggining.
    Was I referencing the game or a successful attack from Shunsui? Regardless, Shunsui successfully attacking Urahara through Kageoni would be devastating for Urahara.

    Quote Quote:
    And I can't, because we have two different takes on both fighter's capabilities. Something that is convincing enough for me is not enough for you.
    True, as I've said it is opinion, which is why I didn't ask you to prove anything, simply to provide a strong case.

    Quote Quote:
    Actually, the only thing you could prove is he can shoot Kido in 30s, as they're a test in Shinigami Academy, that Shunsui graduated from. Other than that, no Kido used by him AT ALL. Urahara used more complex Kidos and his zanpakuto technique is very similar to that shield Kido. That alone is enough to assume, that he could use it if he wanted.
    So you think giving Urahara shields comparable to Aizen's is acceptable under the guidelines of the tournament?

    Quote Quote:
    Shunsui dodged faster attacks than Urahara has shown? Show me. His fight with Stark isn't real indication. Urahara is fast himself, but we haven't seen much of it. From what we've seen we can say he is fairly fast. If he can somehow react to any of Aizen's attacks he is still better than Kyoraku, who got taken out in one attack.
    How is his battle against Starrk not a real indication? I don't doubt Urahara is fast, but as you point out we haven't seen much of it. Urahara's attacks haven't been particularly fast, it is the reason why he has used diversions or the element of surprise to effectively use them. And he didn't do much with Aizen's attacks, he was fighting alongside Yoruichi and Isshin and was soundly defeated.

    Quote Quote:
    You say tactics I suggest are not enough to win, I think they are. Not like you'd accept any of my tactics as possible. If you suggested any tactic for Kyoraku I'd probably found something to make it not work.
    Tactics? His games are his tactics. Your answer to Shunsui's games have been the use of gigai, I've pointed out that the gigai is exceedingly difficult to pull off against Shunsui, and after its first use it becomes virtually useless when Shunsui has multiple games available to him. You've also pointed out Urahara's intellect in understanding the games, and I've pointed out that Shunsui is going to have the advantage in each game until Urahara figures them out.

    Quote Quote:
    There's nothing about Kido in rules. Considering Urahara showed Kidos in 90s and 80s we can be sure he can execute everything that is below it with ease. That Kido is just like Taka Oni. Shunsui tried to use it, he failed, but you still use it as argument. And we only have vague understanding of how it works, not enough. I can't say Urahara can use Byakurai because he didn't use it in manga too? It's Hado #4.
    There is a general rule about only attributing abilities to characters that they've shown; Characters can only be considered as they have been "shown" (pic or text) capable of in the manga, except for some characters that might have limiter on them. Urahara has never shown shields. Those shields aren't like Takaoni, we know for a fact that he is capable of using that game, he has shown that he is, even if we don't understand the rules of the game, whereas Urahara has never shown the ability to use the shields you're suggesting. And comparing those shields to lower level kido is pointless. We don't know if it was kido, and if it is, we don't know what level. Aizen makes a point in saying he prepared the shield beforehand, that's the only thing we know about its usage. Attributing it to Urahara is far beyond the rules of this tournament, and far beyond what is reasonable even outside of it.

  4. #34
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    I'm confused. So, it's holding something that resembles Benihime. It would be a pretty crappy replacement if it couldn't have items that resembled those of the owner. It'd be pretty obvious to an opponent if the guy suddenly loses his weapon.
    I already wrote in my last post, that the only possible explanation is he made another staff to look like it. And that would imply Urahara is fast enough to switch with gigai and disappear out of Aizen's range, so he wouldn't feel his reiatsu AT ALL, even while being in Hogyoku form.


    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Was I referencing the game or a successful attack from Shunsui? Regardless, Shunsui successfully attacking Urahara through Kageoni would be devastating for Urahara.
    Assuming Urahara has no idea that attack is being executed (so, doesn't see Shunsui putting his sword into the ground, shadow) and has no time to react. People were shown to dodge slashes that were 1mm from them with minor injury (Shinji and Tousen's slash), Kenpachi was able to dodge in the instant he felt a blade made contact (against Tousen, again). Stark could dodge Shunsui's sneak attacks too. Using Kage Oni requires distraction (Vaizards fighting, Hitsugaya and Soifon attacking), or at least not giving your enemy time to react (attacking from a pole when he was landing)

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    So you think giving Urahara shields comparable to Aizen's is acceptable under the guidelines of the tournament?
    And is Shunsui's slash comparable to Ichigo's Getsuga? He doesn't need a shield of that strength, just that technique. Even Repulse (#8) should be enough. It's what Ukitake used against Lilynette. Danku (81) blocked every attack thrown at it so far (Aizen, Byakuya). Kidos are sometimes broken. Hadou 88 from Tessai was bigger than any technique we saw so far, Mugetsu excluded.


    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    How is his battle against Starrk not a real indication? I don't doubt Urahara is fast, but as you point out we haven't seen much of it. Urahara's attacks haven't been particularly fast, it is the reason why he has used diversions or the element of surprise to effectively use them. And he didn't do much with Aizen's attacks, he was fighting alongside Yoruichi and Isshin and was soundly defeated.
    Shunsui got taken out in one slash and didn't even react to it, Urahara could react, block and use some chain thingies with Isshin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Tactics? His games are his tactics. Your answer to Shunsui's games have been the use of gigai, I've pointed out that the gigai is exceedingly difficult to pull off against Shunsui, and after its first use it becomes virtually useless when Shunsui has multiple games available to him. You've also pointed out Urahara's intellect in understanding the games, and I've pointed out that Shunsui is going to have the advantage in each game until Urahara figures them out.
    We already had that discussion. Kage Oni is the only dangerous technique. Iro Oni is hit for a hit, not advantage there. Urahara can figure out why he is cut on a colour his opponent just said without him moving. By analyzing what that colour has to do with anything he can make rough guess of what this ability is. And the more they play, the worse for Shunsui. Even if we discuss it more and more, nothing will come out of it.



    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    There is a general rule about only attributing abilities to characters that they've shown; Characters can only be considered as they have been "shown" (pic or text) capable of in the manga, except for some characters that might have limiter on them. Urahara has never shown shields. Those shields aren't like Takaoni, we know for a fact that he is capable of using that game, he has shown that he is, even if we don't understand the rules of the game, whereas Urahara has never shown the ability to use the shields you're suggesting. And comparing those shields to lower level kido is pointless. We don't know if it was kido, and if it is, we don't know what level. Aizen makes a point in saying he prepared the shield beforehand, that's the only thing we know about its usage. Attributing it to Urahara is far beyond the rules of this tournament, and far beyond what is reasonable even outside of it.
    He is shown to use Kidos of higher level. Thus it's normal he can use lower level techniques. Does anyone remember Sajin's Shikai in manga? He's the one to go bankai first. But can I say he has no shikai if he used Bankai already? I believe he did use shikai against his first fight with Kenpachi, but it only serves as an explanation of my way of thinking.

    Btw, noone said he can't use his shield technique to shield his back. He creates shield in front of his Zanpakuto. He can as well put his shield behind him.
    Last edited by Duniak; August 07, 2013 at 01:29 PM.

  5. #35
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    I already wrote in my last post, that the only possible explanation is he made another staff to look like it. And that would imply Urahara is fast enough to switch with gigai and disappear out of Aizen's range, so he wouldn't feel his reiatsu AT ALL, even while being in Hogyoku form.
    Aizen didn't feel his reiatsu because Aizen wasn't looking for it. He admitted that he shouldn't have fallen for the trick. It was successful for the same reason some of the other attacks against Aizen were successful; Aizen became immensely arrogant and thought himself beyond his opponents.

    Quote Quote:
    Assuming Urahara has no idea that attack is being executed (so, doesn't see Shunsui putting his sword into the ground, shadow) and has no time to react. People were shown to dodge slashes that were 1mm from them with minor injury (Shinji and Tousen's slash), Kenpachi was able to dodge in the instant he felt a blade made contact (against Tousen, again). Stark could dodge Shunsui's sneak attacks too. Using Kage Oni requires distraction (Vaizards fighting, Hitsugaya and Soifon attacking), or at least not giving your enemy time to react (attacking from a pole when he was landing)
    Yes, sometimes people escape. This is generally because the individual is faster than the attack they're facing; for example Shinji. While sometimes the alternative is to take the hit, and then respond; Kenpachi. I just don't consider Urahara to be faster than Shunsui, or capable of taking the hit and returning the blow and coming out on top.

    Quote Quote:
    And is Shunsui's slash comparable to Ichigo's Getsuga? He doesn't need a shield of that strength, just that technique. Even Repulse (#8) should be enough. It's what Ukitake used against Lilynette. Danku (81) blocked every attack thrown at it so far (Aizen, Byakuya). Kidos are sometimes broken. Hadou 88 from Tessai was bigger than any technique we saw so far, Mugetsu excluded.
    Lilynette was weak, to put it kindly. Repulse isn't going to work against Shunsui. And Danku has worked against two attacks, both kido based attacks, because it is specifically capable of blocking kido-based attacks up to level 89. This doesn't apply to Shunsui's physical attacks. So neither of these are going to stop Shunsui.

    Quote Quote:
    Shunsui got taken out in one slash and didn't even react to it, Urahara could react, block and use some chain thingies with Isshin.
    Shunsui went down because he was under the effect of Aizen's illusion.

    Quote Quote:
    We already had that discussion. Kage Oni is the only dangerous technique. Iro Oni is hit for a hit, not advantage there. Urahara can figure out why he is cut on a colour his opponent just said without him moving. By analyzing what that colour has to do with anything he can make rough guess of what this ability is. And the more they play, the worse for Shunsui. Even if we discuss it more and more, nothing will come out of it.
    You've once again disregarded the initial advantage Shunsui has by the very fact that he is aware of the rules while Urahara isn't. For Urahara to figure it out, Shunsui has to land a hit, or inform him. I've already accepted, and made it clear, that any initial advantage in this game would be lost after Urahara figures it out, but until such time he is at a disadvantage.

    Quote Quote:
    He is shown to use Kidos of higher level. Thus it's normal he can use lower level techniques. Does anyone remember Sajin's Shikai in manga? He's the one to go bankai first. But can I say he has no shikai if he used Bankai already? I believe he did use shikai against his first fight with Kenpachi, but it only serves as an explanation of my way of thinking.
    Btw, noone said he can't use his shield technique to shield his back. He creates shield in front of his Zanpakuto. He can as well put his shield behind him.
    This is irrelevant. Aizen's shield isn't established to be kido, and even if it is kido, we don't know the level, and even Aizen had to prep the shield prior to battle. Urahara doesn't get the benefit of these shields, period. And yes, he is capable of using his shikai's shield, but that is very different from what you're suggesting. A shield that requires him to activate an ability from his blade and a shield that just exists to protect him from surprise attacks are two entirely different things.

  6. #36
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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

    I just wanted to throw in, that in his fight with Yammy, Urahara was fast as hell, even Yammy couldnt follow his movements. He also showed, how fast he can pull out his Gigai, without anyone noticing.

    In a flashback in SS arc, they showed Urahara and Youruchi train in their underground hideout. So I think in terms of speed, he can keep up with Yorouichis speed to 90%.

    And the point that Urahara is only strong when he has prepared something is also wrong. When Luppi and co appeared, he left unprepared because Renji and Chad were too exhausted.

    In a shikai fight, Urahara has the upper hand, even against Shunsui. But I dont doubt that Shunsuis Bankai can stomp everyone, I even think it is stronger than Yamas.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Amigo View Post
    I just wanted to throw in, that in his fight with Yammy, Urahara was fast as hell, even Yammy couldnt follow his movements. He also showed, how fast he can pull out his Gigai, without anyone noticing.
    Even Yammy? Yammy was the weakest of the Espada at the time, and Urahara pulled out his gigai while Yammy decided to rant about his Bala like an idiot. The result would probably have been very different if Yammy didn't give Urahara the chance to recover and utilise his gigai.

    Quote Quote:
    And the point that Urahara is only strong when he has prepared something is also wrong. When Luppi and co appeared, he left unprepared because Renji and Chad were too exhausted.
    I don't think Urahara is only strong when he has prepared something, he's fast, ridiculously intelligent, a kido master with few equals, and very versatile. However, he has had the opportunity to prep in most of his battles and it was at these times that he was most impressive.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Aizen didn't feel his reiatsu because Aizen wasn't looking for it. He admitted that he shouldn't have fallen for the trick. It was successful for the same reason some of the other attacks against Aizen were successful; Aizen became immensely arrogant and thought himself beyond his opponents.
    People feel someone's reiatsu closing in, they don't need to look for it. Aizen being cocky hardly changes the fact, that Urahara pulled it off right in front of him.


    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Yes, sometimes people escape. This is generally because the individual is faster than the attack they're facing; for example Shinji. While sometimes the alternative is to take the hit, and then respond; Kenpachi. I just don't consider Urahara to be faster than Shunsui, or capable of taking the hit and returning the blow and coming out on top.
    Urahara doesn't need to be faster than Shunsui. The fact that Urahara can be fast enough to respond to a simple attack from Kage Oni (which isn't really dependant on Shunsui's shunpo) means to me that Shunsui's attack wouldn't do serious damage. Let alone changing the battle's outcome. Urahara can figure those techniques out after one us and it's starting to be a real game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Lilynette was weak, to put it kindly. Repulse isn't going to work against Shunsui. And Danku has worked against two attacks, both kido based attacks, because it is specifically capable of blocking kido-based attacks up to level 89. This doesn't apply to Shunsui's physical attacks. So neither of these are going to stop Shunsui.
    Lilynette strength doesn't mean anything, the technique itself matters there. Repulse used with combination with Benihime's shield. When Shunsui's attack, use repulse disrupt his stance (shield stops the attack, repulse is used on his arm), counterattack. Or just use some Bakudos like on Aizen. And after using Bakudos, he might as well seal his reiatsu and make him go booooom.



    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Shunsui went down because he was under the effect of Aizen's illusion.
    Maybe I missed something, but being under illusion hardly makes you fall after one hit, does it?


    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    You've once again disregarded the initial advantage Shunsui has by the very fact that he is aware of the rules while Urahara isn't. For Urahara to figure it out, Shunsui has to land a hit, or inform him. I've already accepted, and made it clear, that any initial advantage in this game would be lost after Urahara figures it out, but until such time he is at a disadvantage.
    Yeah, and figuring it out isn't hard after first use of technique, as Stark already proved. Also, after using a technique Shunsui must wait for Urahara to make his move. It hardly gives any advantage as it is a hit for a hit. Also, opponent still has to hit you, which could be hard for both of them.

    http://www.mangareader.net/94-32543-...apter-374.html

    Kage Oni was figured out after first use too.

    http://www.mangareader.net/94-32543-...apter-374.html

    Stark isn't smarter than Urahara.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    This is irrelevant. Aizen's shield isn't established to be kido, and even if it is kido, we don't know the level, and even Aizen had to prep the shield prior to battle. Urahara doesn't get the benefit of these shields, period. And yes, he is capable of using his shikai's shield, but that is very different from what you're suggesting. A shield that requires him to activate an ability from his blade and a shield that just exists to protect him from surprise attacks are two entirely different things.
    Actually, they are not that different. Size is different, that's for sure. Purpose of shields would be the same. Using Zanpakuto ability shouldn't be really out of option, right? He would just use it in a different manner than he did so far. Which wouldn't be strange, as he hardly fought so far.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    People feel someone's reiatsu closing in, they don't need to look for it. Aizen being cocky hardly changes the fact, that Urahara pulled it off right in front of him.
    If you aren't looking for someone's reiatsu, you aren't going to notice it. Its not the first time someone surprised someone else.

    Quote Quote:
    Urahara doesn't need to be faster than Shunsui. The fact that Urahara can be fast enough to respond to a simple attack from Kage Oni (which isn't really dependant on Shunsui's shunpo) means to me that Shunsui's attack wouldn't do serious damage. Let alone changing the battle's outcome. Urahara can figure those techniques out after one us and it's starting to be a real game.
    Shunsui managed to successfully bring down Starrk with relative ease, I think he should be able to do the same against Urahara.

    Quote Quote:
    Lilynette strength doesn't mean anything, the technique itself matters there. Repulse used with combination with Benihime's shield. When Shunsui's attack, use repulse disrupt his stance (shield stops the attack, repulse is used on his arm), counterattack. Or just use some Bakudos like on Aizen. And after using Bakudos, he might as well seal his reiatsu and make him go booooom.
    Of course strength plays a role. Repulse is a weak kido spell with a tiny defensive area. And we haven't seen Urahara somehow combine Repulse with his own technique. And this conversation originated from your suggestion that he would be capable of using Aizen's shields, repulse needs to be cast, and he needs to have Benihime between him and Shunsui for that shield to take effect. If Shunsui initiates a surprise attack from behind, neither of these are likely to be useful. We've already seen that Urahara is capable of being hit by a surprise attack.

    Quote Quote:
    Maybe I missed something, but being under illusion hardly makes you fall after one hit, does it?
    This component of the discussion was related to Shunsui's speed. If we're talking about endurance, Shunsui has shown endurance far beyond Urahara's.

    Quote Quote:
    Yeah, and figuring it out isn't hard after first use of technique, as Stark already proved. Also, after using a technique Shunsui must wait for Urahara to make his move. It hardly gives any advantage as it is a hit for a hit. Also, opponent still has to hit you, which could be hard for both of them.
    http://www.mangareader.net/94-32543-...apter-374.html
    Kage Oni was figured out after first use too.
    http://www.mangareader.net/94-32543-...apter-374.html
    Stark isn't smarter than Urahara.
    This is great and all, but it still means that the first attack is Shunsui's to make without Urahara understanding the rules. It is exactly as I've always suggested, Shunsui will always have the initial advantage in his games.

    Quote Quote:
    Actually, they are not that different. Size is different, that's for sure. Purpose of shields would be the same. Using Zanpakuto ability shouldn't be really out of option, right? He would just use it in a different manner than he did so far. Which wouldn't be strange, as he hardly fought so far.
    They are very different. The purpose of Urahara's shield and Aizen's shield are similar, but the application and ability are far different. The simple reality is that it is completely ridiculous to grant Urahara Aizen's shield in this tournament, or in any scenario.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

    Uruhara wins. He's likely faster and has more firepower. If he hold his distance he should win.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    If you aren't looking for someone's reiatsu, you aren't going to notice it. Its not the first time someone surprised someone else.
    And not the first time someone noticed someone without knowing where to look. That's exactly why Aizen used reiatsu-hiding cloak. His reiatsu would be felt.


    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Shunsui managed to successfully bring down Starrk with relative ease, I think he should be able to do the same against Urahara.
    Hold your horses there cowboy! Shunsui went down and wasn't finished off, then Vaizards came and basically tanked Starrk's Wolves, that were stated as his STRONGEST technique, containing his own very soul. Those wolves could NOT be recreated. Vaizards basically took his strongest weapon away from him and left him with swordmanship, that is not enough against Kyoraku's twin-sword AND Katen Kyokotsu. If it was a fair fight, who knows how it'd turn out.


    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Of course strength plays a role. Repulse is a weak kido spell with a tiny defensive area. And we haven't seen Urahara somehow combine Repulse with his own technique. And this conversation originated from your suggestion that he would be capable of using Aizen's shields, repulse needs to be cast, and he needs to have Benihime between him and Shunsui for that shield to take effect. If Shunsui initiates a surprise attack from behind, neither of these are likely to be useful. We've already seen that Urahara is capable of being hit by a surprise attack.
    Suprise attacks works only when you have a distraction. In Urahara's case it was other opponent. But there's no other opponent and Kyoraku didn't show us anything that could suggest he can somehow create a distraction (throwing his robe and hat counts? Urahara can do the same then? xD). Strength of a technique depends on a user. Repulse is a simple technique, that's why it's number is low. Look at Byakurai. Number? 4. Byakuya can create a lightning with it, with high penetrating force. Just look at his fight with Ichigo. Or Hainawa, Bakudo #4.



    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    This component of the discussion was related to Shunsui's speed. If we're talking about endurance, Shunsui has shown endurance far beyond Urahara's.
    I was talking overally about reflexes and fighting ability. Urahara took direct hit from Aizen's palm and still fought like nothing happened. Shunsui took one slash and fell down like Tupolev. Shunsui never showed endurance far beyond Urahara. He fought more, but nothing suggests one or another is better in either endurance or shunpo.


    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    This is great and all, but it still means that the first attack is Shunsui's to make without Urahara understanding the rules. It is exactly as I've always suggested, Shunsui will always have the initial advantage in his games.
    Which is hardly an advantage in Iro oni, exactly as I always suggested, and it gives him and edge ONLY in Kage oni, which is discussed too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    They are very different. The purpose of Urahara's shield and Aizen's shield are similar, but the application and ability are far different. The simple reality is that it is completely ridiculous to grant Urahara Aizen's shield in this tournament, or in any scenario.
    Aizen's shield served only as an example of countermeasure against Kage oni. I thought it was Kido and referred to it as such. Purpose and ability are similar, about application we have no information, but knowing Aizen's love to Kido I'm fairly sure it IS Kido. We still don't know it's level. Urahara's shield could serve the same purpose. The outcome will be different. Shunsui wouldn't attack that shield, unlike the one that Aizen had, as it was tiny and hidden. But it'd limit Shunsui's possibilities making his attack predictable.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    And not the first time someone noticed someone without knowing where to look. That's exactly why Aizen used reiatsu-hiding cloak. His reiatsu would be felt.
    For someone bothering to pay attention. The number of times that individuals have appeared rather surprisingly is pretty indicative of the fact that it is pretty easy to sneak up on someone if they aren't bothering to worry about it.

    Quote Quote:
    Hold your horses there cowboy! Shunsui went down and wasn't finished off, then Vaizards came and basically tanked Starrk's Wolves, that were stated as his STRONGEST technique, containing his own very soul. Those wolves could NOT be recreated. Vaizards basically took his strongest weapon away from him and left him with swordmanship, that is not enough against Kyoraku's twin-sword AND Katen Kyokotsu. If it was a fair fight, who knows how it'd turn out.
    This is great and everything, but outside the context of what I was referencing. I was referencing the ease with which Shunsui's attack was able to bring him down.

    Quote Quote:
    Suprise attacks works only when you have a distraction. In Urahara's case it was other opponent. But there's no other opponent and Kyoraku didn't show us anything that could suggest he can somehow create a distraction (throwing his robe and hat counts? Urahara can do the same then? xD). Strength of a technique depends on a user. Repulse is a simple technique, that's why it's number is low. Look at Byakurai. Number? 4. Byakuya can create a lightning with it, with high penetrating force. Just look at his fight with Ichigo. Or Hainawa, Bakudo #4.
    Surprise attacks don't require a distraction, if you're able to essentially teleport behind an opponent at a moment's notice. And the level of a technique is reflective of its power. Low-level kido is pretty weak, and isn't much of a concern for individuals of this level.

    Quote Quote:
    I was talking overally about reflexes and fighting ability. Urahara took direct hit from Aizen's palm and still fought like nothing happened. Shunsui took one slash and fell down like Tupolev. Shunsui never showed endurance far beyond Urahara. He fought more, but nothing suggests one or another is better in either endurance or shunpo.
    I'd say a palm and a sword slash are obviously two very different things in terms of the damage they're capable of inflicting, that should be pretty obvious. And let's not forget that Aizen was further along in his evolution by the time he took on Shunsui, and he was able to land a critical strike thanks to his illusion. Has Urahara shown the ability to tank a cero from the primera Espada. Shunsui has actual endurance feats.

    Quote Quote:
    Which is hardly an advantage in Iro oni, exactly as I always suggested, and it gives him and edge ONLY in Kage oni, which is discussed too.
    Hardly an advantage is an advantage, and a clear advantage in the other. From the very beginning I've pointed out that it isn't much, but was enough to put Shunsui ahead, in my mind.

    Quote Quote:
    Aizen's shield served only as an example of countermeasure against Kage oni. I thought it was Kido and referred to it as such. Purpose and ability are similar, about application we have no information, but knowing Aizen's love to Kido I'm fairly sure it IS Kido. We still don't know it's level. Urahara's shield could serve the same purpose. The outcome will be different. Shunsui wouldn't attack that shield, unlike the one that Aizen had, as it was tiny and hidden. But it'd limit Shunsui's possibilities making his attack predictable.
    That's ridiculous. Why use an example of a technique that Urahara is incapable of using in this tournament? It's giving him a very useful ability, which he doesn't have access to. Urahara's shield doesn't hold a candle to Aizen's based on feats. Aizen's shield doesn't require him to do anything to defend him, Urahara on the other hand would have to actively defend himself. Additionally, Aizen's shield has shown defensive power far beyond Urahara's shikai's shield. They are very different abilities. If Shunsui attacks Urahara from behind, he isn't going to have a shield at the ready to defend himself.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    For someone bothering to pay attention. The number of times that individuals have appeared rather surprisingly is pretty indicative of the fact that it is pretty easy to sneak up on someone if they aren't bothering to worry about it.
    We have evidence to back up both of those points. Soifon felt Quincy behind her, but in SS arc she was surprised by Yoruichi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    This is great and everything, but outside the context of what I was referencing. I was referencing the ease with which Shunsui's attack was able to bring him down.
    Oh, you mean injured Stark, that fought Vaizards and said how he doesn't want to fight more. Also you said "he brought down Stark with relative ease". How is that not connected to killing him? The truth is, his attack could connect only because Stark had nothing left and was stripped of his technique.


    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Surprise attacks don't require a distraction, if you're able to essentially teleport behind an opponent at a moment's notice. And the level of a technique is reflective of its power. Low-level kido is pretty weak, and isn't much of a concern for individuals of this level.
    The fact high level Kidos are more flashy doesn't mean, that Sokatsui or Byakurai doesn't have power. Kukaku didn't have problem with one-shoting her opponents with Kido. And it wasn't Kidos in 80s or 90s. We know high level Kidos are strong, as they're complex. Low-level Kidos are NOT weak. Level of technique ISN'T reflective of power. Knowing that they had to be invented, the number is probably order in which they got invented. And the speed of invention probably depends on how complex application of said ability is.



    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    I'd say a palm and a sword slash are obviously two very different things in terms of the damage they're capable of inflicting, that should be pretty obvious. And let's not forget that Aizen was further along in his evolution by the time he took on Shunsui, and he was able to land a critical strike thanks to his illusion. Has Urahara shown the ability to tank a cero from the primera Espada. Shunsui has actual endurance feats.
    Palm reinforced with Hogyoku armor from a being transcending both Shinigami and Hollow, during subjugation and slash from Shinigami Aizen, that could be owned by Isshin. I think those 2 are similar in damage.

    Shunsui didn't show ability to "tank" a Cero. He showed ability to dodge Cero. He didn't dodge fully one time, he got bruised

    http://www.mangareader.net/94-7112-1...apter-362.html

    And when he did take on one...

    http://www.mangareader.net/94-7114-1...apter-364.html

    He went down, and his blood behind him. Would you mind showing me where did he tank Stark's Cero?

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    That's ridiculous. Why use an example of a technique that Urahara is incapable of using in this tournament? It's giving him a very useful ability, which he doesn't have access to. Urahara's shield doesn't hold a candle to Aizen's based on feats. Aizen's shield doesn't require him to do anything to defend him, Urahara on the other hand would have to actively defend himself. Additionally, Aizen's shield has shown defensive power far beyond Urahara's shikai's shield. They are very different abilities. If Shunsui attacks Urahara from behind, he isn't going to have a shield at the ready to defend himself.
    Actually, we don't know how exactly Urahara's shield works. He used it to shield from frontal attacks so far. Shield is being created in front of his sword. Does it expire when he moves his sword? Does it disappear only on his command? If he puts his sword at his back he obviously can create a shield, but can he fight like that? He can, he is a master of Hakuda, which will be hardly effective against Shunsui's sword. If he can use his sword after using a shield he is at advantage there.
    Last edited by Duniak; August 09, 2013 at 06:44 AM.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Oh, you mean injured Stark, that fought Vaizards and said how he doesn't want to fight more. Also you said "he brought down Stark with relative ease". How is that not connected to killing him? The truth is, his attack could connect only because Stark had nothing left and was stripped of his technique.
    Starrk lost because Shunsui emerged from his shadows and stabbed him, and then by finishing him off with one of his games.

    Quote Quote:
    The fact high level Kidos are more flashy doesn't mean, that Sokatsui or Byakurai doesn't have power. Kukaku didn't have problem with one-shoting her opponents with Kido. And it wasn't Kidos in 80s or 90s. We know high level Kidos are strong, as they're complex. Low-level Kidos are NOT weak. Level of technique ISN'T reflective of power. Knowing that they had to be invented, the number is probably order in which they got invented. And the speed of invention probably depends on how complex application of said ability is.
    Who of note did Kukaku one shot with low-level kido? We're talking about powerful captains here, not some low-level random shinigamai. Aizen's comments makes it clear that low level kido isn't much of a threat. Higher level techniques are more powerful than lower level techniques, that's established fact.

    Quote Quote:
    Palm reinforced with Hogyoku armor from a being transcending both Shinigami and Hollow, during subjugation and slash from Shinigami Aizen, that could be owned by Isshin. I think those 2 are similar in damage.
    I still don't get why you think a palm is equal to a blade. And we saw Urahara completely trashed alongside Urahara and Isshin moments later. Urahara hasn't shown endurance equal to Shunsui's.

    Quote Quote:
    Shunsui didn't show ability to "tank" a Cero. He showed ability to dodge Cero. He didn't dodge fully one time, he got bruised
    http://www.mangareader.net/94-7112-1...apter-362.html
    And when he did take on one...
    http://www.mangareader.net/94-7114-1...apter-364.html
    He went down, and his blood behind him. Would you mind showing me where did he tank Stark's Cero?
    He was unaffected, and in totally working order. He was pretending to be injured. Lisa stomped on him a bit, then he got up.

    Quote Quote:
    Actually, we don't know how exactly Urahara's shield works. He used it to shield from frontal attacks so far. Shield is being created in front of his sword. Does it expire when he moves his sword? Does it disappear only on his command? If he puts his sword at his back he obviously can create a shield, but can he fight like that? He can, he is a master of Hakuda, which will be hardly effective against Shunsui's sword. If he can use his sword after using a shield he is at advantage there.
    We give his shikai the ability it shows. We don't know exactly how some of Shunsui's games work, so we limit it to what we've seen or have been told. You're attempting to give Urahara greater abilities than he has shown, or there is any indication that he has. Stick with abilities that have been attributed to him by the manga, don't just make them up for him on your own.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Semi Finals: Shunsui vs Urahara

    Result

    Shunsui Kyōraku : 16
    Kisuke Urahara : 17

    Kisuke Urahara advances to the final.

    You can discuss the results in Bleach Tournament Discussion Thread.

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