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You aren't the only one with other things to do, but fair enough.Quote:
My point is that if Shunsui blocks or avoids it, Urahara can't use it to hide his actions. I didn't say Shunsui could avoid everything. I just said he could likely avoid a level 30 kido spell from a distance, along with the level of attacks we've seen so far from Urahara's shikai.Quote:
I don't remember particularly agreeing to that conclusion, but I do remember saying that it would be, at the very least, a serious injury. Urahara hasn't shown anywhere near the endurance of Shunsui.Quote:
It doesn't, and particularly not in the context I used it. I just argued that you haven't put forward a convincing argument for Urahara's effective use of his gigai. So far you've indicated that he could utilise it at the beginning; this is unlikely to be effective because Shunsui would be very much aware, proposed that Urahara could use a level 30 kido spell to blind Shunsui so that he could so without being watched; I questioned the effectiveness of that kido particularly based on what we know of level 30 kido and Aizen's response to it, and alternatively early on you suggested that Urahara would be able to pull it off in response to a surprise attack, and I pointed to Yammy's surprise attack on Urahara. And asking someone to prove that something is impossible is pointless. I don't think he's perfect, I just think that when it comes to what we've seen, he's superior. You could say that Urahara could use things that we haven't seen from him. If you start with that, I could just point out that Shunsui is a senior captain and he would obviously be able to utilise high level kido. However, we only attribute to individuals what those individuals have shown. The difference between you proposing abilities that Urahara hasn't shown to aid him in this battle and me extrapolating what Shunsui's shown to apply to this battle is obvious. There are rules in this tournament for that very reason. Shunsui has shown impressive speed and great endurance, we've seen him avoid faster attacks than what Urahara has shown, and we've seen him handle stronger attacks than Urahara has shown, so my argument is based on these things. I don't disregard what you say, I simply point out that I consider the strategies you propose for Urahara to be insufficient to win this match. Urahara is exceptional, but the reality remains that the circumstance of his battles have been a mixed bag. He barely fights and when he does, he's planned and plotted and prepared. That has been one of the things that made him so effective against the likes of Aizen, but he isn't allowed that here. So against someone of Shunsui's power, he is likely to fail, in my opinion.Quote:
You say tactics I suggest are not enough to win, I think they are. Not like you'd accept any of my tactics as possible. If you suggested any tactic for Kyoraku I'd probably found something to make it not work.
There's nothing about Kido in rules. Considering Urahara showed Kidos in 90s and 80s we can be sure he can execute everything that is below it with ease. That Kido is just like Taka Oni. Shunsui tried to use it, he failed, but you still use it as argument. And we only have vague understanding of how it works, not enough. I can't say Urahara can use Byakurai because he didn't use it in manga too? It's Hado #4.
Yes, I don't think it's enough time.Quote:
Was I referencing the game or a successful attack from Shunsui? Regardless, Shunsui successfully attacking Urahara through Kageoni would be devastating for Urahara.Quote:
True, as I've said it is opinion, which is why I didn't ask you to prove anything, simply to provide a strong case.Quote:
So you think giving Urahara shields comparable to Aizen's is acceptable under the guidelines of the tournament?Quote:
How is his battle against Starrk not a real indication? I don't doubt Urahara is fast, but as you point out we haven't seen much of it. Urahara's attacks haven't been particularly fast, it is the reason why he has used diversions or the element of surprise to effectively use them. And he didn't do much with Aizen's attacks, he was fighting alongside Yoruichi and Isshin and was soundly defeated.Quote:
Tactics? His games are his tactics. Your answer to Shunsui's games have been the use of gigai, I've pointed out that the gigai is exceedingly difficult to pull off against Shunsui, and after its first use it becomes virtually useless when Shunsui has multiple games available to him. You've also pointed out Urahara's intellect in understanding the games, and I've pointed out that Shunsui is going to have the advantage in each game until Urahara figures them out.Quote:
There is a general rule about only attributing abilities to characters that they've shown; Characters can only be considered as they have been "shown" (pic or text) capable of in the manga, except for some characters that might have limiter on them. Urahara has never shown shields. Those shields aren't like Takaoni, we know for a fact that he is capable of using that game, he has shown that he is, even if we don't understand the rules of the game, whereas Urahara has never shown the ability to use the shields you're suggesting. And comparing those shields to lower level kido is pointless. We don't know if it was kido, and if it is, we don't know what level. Aizen makes a point in saying he prepared the shield beforehand, that's the only thing we know about its usage. Attributing it to Urahara is far beyond the rules of this tournament, and far beyond what is reasonable even outside of it.Quote:
Btw, noone said he can't use his shield technique to shield his back. He creates shield in front of his Zanpakuto. He can as well put his shield behind him.
Last edited by Duniak; August 07, 2013 at 01:29 PM.
Yes, sometimes people escape. This is generally because the individual is faster than the attack they're facing; for example Shinji. While sometimes the alternative is to take the hit, and then respond; Kenpachi. I just don't consider Urahara to be faster than Shunsui, or capable of taking the hit and returning the blow and coming out on top.Quote:
Lilynette was weak, to put it kindly. Repulse isn't going to work against Shunsui. And Danku has worked against two attacks, both kido based attacks, because it is specifically capable of blocking kido-based attacks up to level 89. This doesn't apply to Shunsui's physical attacks. So neither of these are going to stop Shunsui.Quote:
Shunsui went down because he was under the effect of Aizen's illusion.Quote:
You've once again disregarded the initial advantage Shunsui has by the very fact that he is aware of the rules while Urahara isn't. For Urahara to figure it out, Shunsui has to land a hit, or inform him. I've already accepted, and made it clear, that any initial advantage in this game would be lost after Urahara figures it out, but until such time he is at a disadvantage.Quote:
This is irrelevant. Aizen's shield isn't established to be kido, and even if it is kido, we don't know the level, and even Aizen had to prep the shield prior to battle. Urahara doesn't get the benefit of these shields, period. And yes, he is capable of using his shikai's shield, but that is very different from what you're suggesting. A shield that requires him to activate an ability from his blade and a shield that just exists to protect him from surprise attacks are two entirely different things.Quote:
I just wanted to throw in, that in his fight with Yammy, Urahara was fast as hell, even Yammy couldnt follow his movements. He also showed, how fast he can pull out his Gigai, without anyone noticing.
In a flashback in SS arc, they showed Urahara and Youruchi train in their underground hideout. So I think in terms of speed, he can keep up with Yorouichis speed to 90%.
And the point that Urahara is only strong when he has prepared something is also wrong. When Luppi and co appeared, he left unprepared because Renji and Chad were too exhausted.
In a shikai fight, Urahara has the upper hand, even against Shunsui. But I dont doubt that Shunsuis Bankai can stomp everyone, I even think it is stronger than Yamas.
I don't think Urahara is only strong when he has prepared something, he's fast, ridiculously intelligent, a kido master with few equals, and very versatile. However, he has had the opportunity to prep in most of his battles and it was at these times that he was most impressive.Quote:
Kage Oni was figured out after first use too.
Stark isn't smarter than Urahara.
Shunsui managed to successfully bring down Starrk with relative ease, I think he should be able to do the same against Urahara.Quote:
Of course strength plays a role. Repulse is a weak kido spell with a tiny defensive area. And we haven't seen Urahara somehow combine Repulse with his own technique. And this conversation originated from your suggestion that he would be capable of using Aizen's shields, repulse needs to be cast, and he needs to have Benihime between him and Shunsui for that shield to take effect. If Shunsui initiates a surprise attack from behind, neither of these are likely to be useful. We've already seen that Urahara is capable of being hit by a surprise attack.Quote:
This component of the discussion was related to Shunsui's speed. If we're talking about endurance, Shunsui has shown endurance far beyond Urahara's.Quote:
This is great and all, but it still means that the first attack is Shunsui's to make without Urahara understanding the rules. It is exactly as I've always suggested, Shunsui will always have the initial advantage in his games.Quote:
They are very different. The purpose of Urahara's shield and Aizen's shield are similar, but the application and ability are far different. The simple reality is that it is completely ridiculous to grant Urahara Aizen's shield in this tournament, or in any scenario.Quote:
Uruhara wins. He's likely faster and has more firepower. If he hold his distance he should win.
This is great and everything, but outside the context of what I was referencing. I was referencing the ease with which Shunsui's attack was able to bring him down.Quote:
Surprise attacks don't require a distraction, if you're able to essentially teleport behind an opponent at a moment's notice. And the level of a technique is reflective of its power. Low-level kido is pretty weak, and isn't much of a concern for individuals of this level.Quote:
I'd say a palm and a sword slash are obviously two very different things in terms of the damage they're capable of inflicting, that should be pretty obvious. And let's not forget that Aizen was further along in his evolution by the time he took on Shunsui, and he was able to land a critical strike thanks to his illusion. Has Urahara shown the ability to tank a cero from the primera Espada. Shunsui has actual endurance feats.Quote:
Hardly an advantage is an advantage, and a clear advantage in the other. From the very beginning I've pointed out that it isn't much, but was enough to put Shunsui ahead, in my mind.Quote:
That's ridiculous. Why use an example of a technique that Urahara is incapable of using in this tournament? It's giving him a very useful ability, which he doesn't have access to. Urahara's shield doesn't hold a candle to Aizen's based on feats. Aizen's shield doesn't require him to do anything to defend him, Urahara on the other hand would have to actively defend himself. Additionally, Aizen's shield has shown defensive power far beyond Urahara's shikai's shield. They are very different abilities. If Shunsui attacks Urahara from behind, he isn't going to have a shield at the ready to defend himself.Quote:
Shunsui didn't show ability to "tank" a Cero. He showed ability to dodge Cero. He didn't dodge fully one time, he got bruised
And when he did take on one...
He went down, and his blood behind him. Would you mind showing me where did he tank Stark's Cero?
Last edited by Duniak; August 09, 2013 at 06:44 AM.
Who of note did Kukaku one shot with low-level kido? We're talking about powerful captains here, not some low-level random shinigamai. Aizen's comments makes it clear that low level kido isn't much of a threat. Higher level techniques are more powerful than lower level techniques, that's established fact.Quote:
I still don't get why you think a palm is equal to a blade. And we saw Urahara completely trashed alongside Urahara and Isshin moments later. Urahara hasn't shown endurance equal to Shunsui's.Quote:
He was unaffected, and in totally working order. He was pretending to be injured. Lisa stomped on him a bit, then he got up.Quote:
We give his shikai the ability it shows. We don't know exactly how some of Shunsui's games work, so we limit it to what we've seen or have been told. You're attempting to give Urahara greater abilities than he has shown, or there is any indication that he has. Stick with abilities that have been attributed to him by the manga, don't just make them up for him on your own.Quote:
Shunsui Kyōraku : 16
Kisuke Urahara : 17
Kisuke Urahara advances to the final.
You can discuss the results in Bleach Tournament Discussion Thread.