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Thread: Bleach Tournament Third Place: Ichigo vs Shunsui

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    Bleach Tournament Third Place: Ichigo vs Shunsui


    Don't forget to read the rules first before you proceed. You can click on character names below pictures to go to their Bleach wiki article for more information.

    THIRD PLACE

    Welcome to the Third Place decider of championship fights of the second Bleach Tournament!
    Here are the contestants who will battle against each other to win third place in championship fights:



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    Re: Bleach Tournament Third Place: Ichigo vs Shunsui

    Hard choice. Ichigo is certainly stronger and faster, but Shunsui is MUCH more experienced, thus I'm sure he can deal with Ichigo's speed. Ichigo is an airhead, dealing with Shunsui's games can be difficult. On the other hand, his battle instincts are good and he can somehow manage to get a vague idea of how games are working. Too bad we haven't seen Kyoraku's Bankai. There'd be no contest I guess. Shunsui made SR use Grimaniel, wounded him badly, he'd have surely won if not for Yamaji's death. Kurosaki faired better against Kirge, not getting a single scratch, but the battle between Shunsui and Kyoraku wouldn't be decided by speed and power. Shunsui takes it IMO.

    Impossibility: Sorry for not responding to your last post. Last 2 days I was pretty busy, that's why I could write maybe 1 reply a day. And today there are already new threads so we'll have to finish it another time.
    Last edited by Duniak; August 10, 2013 at 11:19 AM.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Third Place: Ichigo vs Shunsui

    Lool,so ichigo lost against unohana??? Ahahah,that's really funny. Well,he owns kyoraku as well.
    @duniak,every opponent was more experienced than ichigo,yet all of them lost.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Third Place: Ichigo vs Shunsui

    Quote Originally Posted by mattiaildivino View Post
    Lool,so ichigo lost against unohana??? Ahahah,that's really funny. Well,he owns kyoraku as well.
    @duniak,every opponent was more experienced than ichigo,yet all of them lost.
    He never fought against pure ability user, where it wasn't the strength that played major role. He fought Kenpachi, brute fighter, Byakuya, whose ability was just small blades, purely physical. Then he fought Grimmjow, next purely physical opponent. And who's next? Ulquiorra. No abilities, just sword and Lanza. He fought Aizen, who was the first one, who actually used ability-based Zanpakuto. But he didn't use it against Ichigo. And then he fought Ginjo, who had Getsuga and Cero, nothing else. His next opponent is Kirge. His ability doesn't work well in battle and is a jail, so there's no mindfucking there. How convenient! Juha doesn't have such abilities as well. That's convenient too. Just as the fact, that Aizen never used his KS against Ichigo, so their fight will still be purely physical, where no thinking is required.

    If Ichigo fought Barragan he'd get owned. If he fought Hachi, he'd win. But it was Hachi who could take Barragan down. That's why strength is useless against some ability-users. Shunsui is no pushover. He could fight roughly on par with Stark with just his shikai. Ichigo didn't stand a chance against Ulquiorra, he wouldn't have won against Nnoitra. Grimmjow was his limit. They were pretty much equal. Ichigo before post-dangai form was weakling compared to Shunsui. Is he all godly during his fight with Ginjo? Is the boost in power that great, that he is now stronger than everyone in Gotei 13? If Ichigo could only use his Shikai he wouldn't do anything against Kirge. Point-blank Getsuga didn't make Kirge flinch. And Shunsui's normal slash could make damage. Ichigo in Shikai is weaker than Shunsui in shikai. Ichigo isn't really that strong. What was strong was his post-Dangai form. Before Dangai he was being trashed by Gin. He hit Gin once, and Gin was just playing with him, throwing him all over the place.

    Shunsui's games are enough to make Ichigo wonder what will happen next and how to react instead of attacking. Shunsui coming out of shadows and cutting him by saying "Black" is enough for Ichigo to worry about his life. He can be as fast as he wants, he will not one-shot Kyoraku, who could keep up with Stark, who could escape Ichigo and Kenpachi in HM with ease. Oh, there's Stark! He takes Orihime! Cut him! POOF. He's gone.

    He may be faster and stronger physically, but that won't help him against Shunsui's games. And I'm sure the difference between their speed isn't that significant.
    Last edited by Duniak; August 10, 2013 at 05:34 PM.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Third Place: Ichigo vs Shunsui

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Hard choice. Ichigo is certainly stronger and faster, but Shunsui is MUCH more experienced, thus I'm sure he can deal with Ichigo's speed. Ichigo is an airhead, dealing with Shunsui's games can be difficult. On the other hand, his battle instincts are good and he can somehow manage to get a vague idea of how games are working. Too bad we haven't seen Kyoraku's Bankai. There'd be no contest I guess. Shunsui made SR use Grimaniel, wounded him badly, he'd have surely won if not for Yamaji's death. Kurosaki faired better against Kirge, not getting a single scratch, but the battle between Shunsui and Kyoraku wouldn't be decided by speed and power. Shunsui takes it IMO.

    Impossibility: Sorry for not responding to your last post. Last 2 days I was pretty busy, that's why I could write maybe 1 reply a day. And today there are already new threads so we'll have to finish it another time.
    When has ichigo ever been shown as an airhead? As a fighter the manga has shown ichigo to be extremely quick thinking and perhaps to the chagrin of his enemies annoyingly intuitive. Remember when he fought jackie? It took him 3 seconds to start taking advantage of the weaknesses of his own technique and set up traps for her. When he fought kirge he figured out in an instant he had to go for his halo and his words were precisely what they had to be to anger him. Ichigo even got under gin's skin during the deicide chapters and it did not take him long at all to figure out gin's actual abilities to a great degree. Even when he fought ikkaku it did not take him long to figure out the seemingly unpredictable movements of his shikai and ichigo was not even experienced back then. Ichigo has at most been inconsistent when it comes to the actual use of his own power however that is not much of a factor nowadays apparently. Ichigo is a natural born fight to the utmost extreme.

    Speed and power to account for a bit though. Ichigo has an extremely inconvenient bankai when it comes to shunsui's games. The speed and strength he gets are basically a cheat code for games at large. Even his GT could prove useful to protect himself from games considering even stark's cero was able to do that. And there is the fact that shunsui does not have bankai available to the fight. Even then, if his bankai follows the same principles as his shikai it won't necessarily be as much of an advantage over ichigo considering it would be likely that the stakes of the games are just higher. Provided games are played ichigo's bankai is still a huge problem.

    The biggest problem I could see ichigo having and perhaps would actually cost him the battle is the fact that shunsui is innately a dirty and outright dishonorable fighter. Most of ichigo's enemies so far have been honorable and consider themselves above underhanded tricks at large. On the other hand shunsui would be perfectly capable of groinkicking him or throwing sand in his eyes if it gets him a better chance at victory. Shunsui would certainly be a different opponent from what ichigo has fought so far. I am somewhat undecided yet but I still lean towards ichigo because his bankai is available to him.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Third Place: Ichigo vs Shunsui

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    When has ichigo ever been shown as an airhead? As a fighter the manga has shown ichigo to be extremely quick thinking and perhaps to the chagrin of his enemies annoyingly intuitive. Remember when he fought jackie? It took him 3 seconds to start taking advantage of the weaknesses of his own technique and set up traps for her. When he fought kirge he figured out in an instant he had to go for his halo and his words were precisely what they had to be to anger him. Ichigo even got under gin's skin during the deicide chapters and it did not take him long at all to figure out gin's actual abilities to a great degree. Even when he fought ikkaku it did not take him long to figure out the seemingly unpredictable movements of his shikai and ichigo was not even experienced back then. Ichigo has at most been inconsistent when it comes to the actual use of his own power however that is not much of a factor nowadays apparently. Ichigo is a natural born fight to the utmost extreme.
    I said his fighting instincts are good. But when it comes to actual thinking, he IS an airhead. Where was it shown? Let's start with contrast between and him and Uryu. His tactic against Menos (cutting it piece by piece, until head comes off). He never even thought about losing, which was shown against Ulquiorra. He knew he couldn't win, but he still said he'd. He wanted Ulquiorra to cut his arm off, so the battle will be even, when he didn't have even slightest advantage against his release. If not for Tensa Zangetsu he'd still choke in a water he could breath in. Throughout the whole series he was shown as stupid, only getting serious and actually intelligent when it comes to battle.

    And yeah, I remember battle with Jackie. And do you remember his battle with Renji? And training with Urahara?

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Speed and power to account for a bit though. Ichigo has an extremely inconvenient bankai when it comes to shunsui's games. The speed and strength he gets are basically a cheat code for games at large. Even his GT could prove useful to protect himself from games considering even stark's cero was able to do that. And there is the fact that shunsui does not have bankai available to the fight. Even then, if his bankai follows the same principles as his shikai it won't necessarily be as much of an advantage over ichigo considering it would be likely that the stakes of the games are just higher. Provided games are played ichigo's bankai is still a huge problem.
    Stark's Cero was enough to stop Shunsui from using Taka Oni. We don't know how Taka Oni works, so taking it into account shouldn't be taken into account. What we do know is Iro Oni and Kage Oni. And neither GT, nor his speed helps him there.

    And hey, I never said Shunsui takes it with ease.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    The biggest problem I could see ichigo having and perhaps would actually cost him the battle is the fact that shunsui is innately a dirty and outright dishonorable fighter. Most of ichigo's enemies so far have been honorable and consider themselves above underhanded tricks at large. On the other hand shunsui would be perfectly capable of groinkicking him or throwing sand in his eyes if it gets him a better chance at victory. Shunsui would certainly be a different opponent from what ichigo has fought so far. I am somewhat undecided yet but I still lean towards ichigo because his bankai is available to him.
    Shunsui is not dishonorable, he is just not stupid. What do you mean by "honor"? Saying "Hey, Ulqiorra, cut off my arm and leg too, bro! Screw the fact, that I won't be able to move, I don't have wings like you and I couldn't do shit against your first form, let alone second, but I have my honor!"

    http://www.mangareader.net/94-807-17...apter-353.html

    And Uryu clearly knows how stupid it is.

    http://www.mangareader.net/94-807-18...apter-353.html

    Shunsui does whatever it takes to win. Throws his hat, takes off his robe to maximize damage, attacks when people talk. Does that makes him dishonorable?

    "Shounen Rule #41421: When opponent uses damn-ass strong technique, the other opponent has to stand still not doing anything, saying "what the hell is that?"

    Example: Ginjo against Ichigo's Getsuga.

    Aizen didn't care about shit like that. He just went to the place Ichigo couldn't aim. Go behind him, dodge Getsuga, easy-peasy. People fighting Ichigo tend to try to tank Getsuga or look at how beautiful it is.

    Doesn't apply to Shunsui. He simply doesn't care. He doesn't care if someone talks in a fight. If someone is dishonorable then it's Stark for not paying attention to his opponent. When there's war there's only one objective, annihilate the enemy. And Shunsui understands that. When there's war and there's a threat, that some people will die, he will do whatever it takes to win. Is it dishonorable? Fighting so his comrades won't die? Are their pride more important than their life? I tought Tetsuzameon already sorted it out with Ikkaku. Soifon understands that too. If your comrade dies and you can't win, run the hell away, don't throw away your life. Life takes priority. Arrancars weren't even the main dish, they had to be annihilated quickly. Both sides wanted to kill the other side. Why would he care about something as meager as pride or honor? Honor is but an excuse. If someone has prorities and rules he lives by, he is already above things like "pride". Look at his fight with Chad. Did he kill him? No. He didn't even want to fight him. Because he didn't believe they were evil. He plays "dirty" when he feels he's in danger. What's the point of having honor and pride when you die? If you die you can't protect anyone. By dying you're lowering chances of everyone else surviving. Is it honorable?

    PS. There is a reason hardly any military all over the world practices martial arts like karate or wing tsun. What are valuable martial arts? BJJ, Sambo, Krav Maga. Why? Because they don't care about pride. You have an enemy in front of you, he has to be killed. Put him to ground and try to choke him. Cowardice? Is it better to fight fair and square and die?
    Last edited by Duniak; August 10, 2013 at 06:39 PM.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Third Place: Ichigo vs Shunsui

    Safe for the menos stuff none of the stuff you mentioned actually suggests ichigo is stupid. And to be fair the issue was that at the time ichigo did not really have the strength to cut up the menos. Ishida had something which seemed like a good idea at the time although to be fair we don't know if that would have worked. When ichigo did release a tiny bit of his power when the cero pressed him it was still not enough to actually kill that gillian. As for his fight against renji, I would argue ichigo did show his smarts and battle instinct. His plan failed because at the time renji was simply faster than him, not because he failed in the execution of it or it was a bad idea to begin with.

    It is true we are not too familiar with how takaoni works but I would make the point similar scenarios are perfectly plausible considering ichigo's abilities. Shunsui plays a game, ichigo counters with getsuga, the cero scenario repeats itself.

    What shunsui does is outright dirty and dishonorable independently of whether you believe there is value in said concept of honor. I was neither favoring nor condemning either of them for their attitude towards usual honorable fighting, I was simply making the point that ichigo is as far as we know not used to fighting people like that. Ichigo wants to win battles on his terms, he wants to prove himself, even the kenpachi hallucination he had after fighting his inner hollow suggested how much ichigo loved combat. His enemies have usually been like that too, they fight with their pride on the line. Shunsui in turn does not give a fuck. He will bite, pull hair, groinkick, do yo mama jokes, sneak up on unsuspecting targets and whatever other underhanded thing he can do to win. Again, I was not judging either one of them for their attitudes, I simply pointed out ichigo has never fought someone like shunsui before which is completely irrelevant to honor being important or stupid.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Third Place: Ichigo vs Shunsui

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Safe for the menos stuff none of the stuff you mentioned actually suggests ichigo is stupid. And to be fair the issue was that at the time ichigo did not really have the strength to cut up the menos. Ishida had something which seemed like a good idea at the time although to be fair we don't know if that would have worked. When ichigo did release a tiny bit of his power when the cero pressed him it was still not enough to actually kill that gillian. As for his fight against renji, I would argue ichigo did show his smarts and battle instinct. His plan failed because at the time renji was simply faster than him, not because he failed in the execution of it or it was a bad idea to begin with.
    Someone who throws away his victory because of damn pride and self-realization is stupid for me. In terms of fighting he is pretty smart and can figure out counters for some techniques. But the truth is, he never had to. When did he figure out a counter to ANYTHING? He was faster, he was stronger, he took advantage of it. He was lucky all his opponents could be simply overpowered. He could be as strong as he wanted, but if Aizen used his KS on him he'd have died anyway. No matter how godly he'd be.

    Urahara taught him the basics. His battle with Renji showed him, that those rules are not absolute. The counter he came up during his battle with Jackie wasn't a quick counter. It was experience. Something that he himself experienced. Jackie attacked him like he attacked Renji. It's like going with right hook to follow with behind the back left elbow, peek-a-boo style, when opponent tries to close the distance thinking you went to far with your hook.

    Btw, as I was looking for panel I meant, next proof of Ichigo being a stubborn blockhead, that depends solely on luck and his power and he knows it.

    http://www.mangareader.net/94-550-13...hapter-96.html


    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    It is true we are not too familiar with how takaoni works but I would make the point similar scenarios are perfectly plausible considering ichigo's abilities. Shunsui plays a game, ichigo counters with getsuga, the cero scenario repeats itself.
    Yeah, with Taka Oni, that we didn't even try to consider in last battles. He can shoot his Getsuga to counter Taka Oni whenever he wants, really. I wonder how will he fare against Bushogama and Kage Oni. That tornado cloud can surely make a shadow.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    What shunsui does is outright dirty and dishonorable independently of whether you believe there is value in said concept of honor. I was neither favoring nor condemning either of them for their attitude towards usual honorable fighting, I was simply making the point that ichigo is as far as we know not used to fighting people like that. Ichigo wants to win battles on his terms, he wants to prove himself, even the kenpachi hallucination he had after fighting his inner hollow suggested how much ichigo loved combat. His enemies have usually been like that too, they fight with their pride on the line. Shunsui in turn does not give a fuck. He will bite, pull hair, groinkick, do yo mama jokes, sneak up on unsuspecting targets and whatever other underhanded thing he can do to win. Again, I was not judging either one of them for their attitudes, I simply pointed out ichigo has never fought someone like shunsui before which is completely irrelevant to honor being important or stupid.
    I just don't like word "dishonorable". It makes Shunsui look bad, and I see nothing bad in his behaviour. Maybe it's because I fought countless times and I know that pride and honor are the quickest way to defeat. When you see 4 guys ganging up on you, you run the hell away, no questions asked. And you don't feel bad you didn't fight. Even if you could win. Noone likes to take a risk. When you can't win against opponent you go straight to the Mataleo and wait those 10 seconds, then run away. When odds are not very, very good for you, you minimize the risk, whatever means possible. I guess people reading shounens, where protagonist is pretty typical (goofy, helps others without slightest doubt, has strength to do so, has his own rules he lives by and doesn't like handicaps), think of honor as something very valuable. That's why Kubo made characters like Soifon and Kyoraku on the good guys' side.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Third Place: Ichigo vs Shunsui

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post

    The biggest problem I could see ichigo having and perhaps would actually cost him the battle is the fact that shunsui is innately a dirty and outright dishonorable fighter. Most of ichigo's enemies so far have been honorable and consider themselves above underhanded tricks at large. On the other hand shunsui would be perfectly capable of groinkicking him or throwing sand in his eyes if it gets him a better chance at victory. Shunsui would certainly be a different opponent from what ichigo has fought so far. I am somewhat undecided yet but I still lean towards ichigo because his bankai is available to him.
    Thats untrue. He got shot in the back by Starrk, he stabs Starrk in the back. If he had no honor he wouldn't have Juushiro saying things like "I won't hear it from you, they're technically double teaming you". Or he wouldn't say things like "don't worry, he (Juushiro) won't harm her (lillynette)." I think you're mixing dishonor with his opportunism. In real fights you don't bow at your opponent or show them courtesy when theyre trying to do you harm. This isn't sport. Its life or death. And like he said, "when in a war both sides are evil." There is no right or wrong, honorable or dishonorable.

    Another thing imo is Ichigo's speed seems exaggerated on these threads as well. I still feel his speed is above normal but not stellar. Nothing Shunsui hasn't dealt with. There was a time Ichigo couldn't comprehend Starrk's speed, Shunsui had no trouble at all with Starrk, or with his Quincy opponent until he used grimaniel. Because before that Shunsui knee'd him in the gut after he dodged a shot at his head at point blank range.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Third Place: Ichigo vs Shunsui

    Quote Originally Posted by freshseth83 View Post
    Thats untrue. He got shot in the back by Starrk, he stabs Starrk in the back. If he had no honor he wouldn't have Juushiro saying things like "I won't hear it from you, they're technically double teaming you". Or he wouldn't say things like "don't worry, he (Juushiro) won't harm her (lillynette)." I think you're mixing dishonor with his opportunism. In real fights you don't bow at your opponent or show them courtesy when theyre trying to do you harm. This isn't sport. Its life or death. And like he said, "when in a war both sides are evil." There is no right or wrong, honorable or dishonorable.

    Another thing imo is Ichigo's speed seems exaggerated on these threads as well. I still feel his speed is above normal but not stellar. Nothing Shunsui hasn't dealt with. There was a time Ichigo couldn't comprehend Starrk's speed, Shunsui had no trouble at all with Starrk, or with his Quincy opponent until he used grimaniel. Because before that Shunsui knee'd him in the gut after he dodged a shot at his head at point blank range.
    lol he had no trouble? ha he was losing till 3 other people jumped in.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Third Place: Ichigo vs Shunsui

    Well, this all depends on how perceptive Kyouraku's opponent is and I'm not sure if Ichigo is that good in that sense. So, I tend to think Kyouraku will be a very difficult opponent for him with his versatile Shikai techniques.

    Quote Originally Posted by lyght View Post
    lol he had no trouble? ha he was losing till 3 other people jumped in.
    He was talking about dealing with Starkk's speed, I assume. Sure, Cero Metralleta was keeping him busy, but until Wonderweiss intervened and Starkk used that opening, Kyouraku wasn't losing that fight, nor winning. That's why he said he was about to go Bankai had Ukitake hadn't intervened, since he wasn't gaining any ground over Starkk with Shikai alone at that point.
    When they were engaged in close combat, they were pretty close if you ask me, so, I wouldn't say he was losing the fight.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Third Place: Ichigo vs Shunsui

    I'm favouring Shunsui because of his games. Urahara was intelligent enough to figure out Shunsui's games and neutralise Shunsui's advantage pretty quickly, but Ichigo is unlikely to show the same intellect. Ichigo hasn't fought an opponent with a tricky ability, he's more of a swing away at it kind of fighter; that approach isn't going to be particularly effective against Shunsui's games. Shunsui has shown the power and speed necessary to battle against Starrk without trying too hard, I think he should be able to hold off Ichigo's attacks. Shunsui is just a bad match-up for Ichigo, anyone that uses tricks and complex abilities is probably going to pose a serious threat to Ichigo's very straightforward approach.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Third Place: Ichigo vs Shunsui

    Shunsui takes this IMO because, If ichigo is fast he isn't slow mover either, Ichigo has one trick that can kill him and that's Getsuga, which shinsui can avoid (unless its point blank) On the other hand Shunsui is smart and can use his games to his advantage... so yah he will win

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Third Place: Ichigo vs Shunsui

    Quote Originally Posted by lyght View Post
    lol he had no trouble? ha he was losing till 3 other people jumped in.
    No, he actually wasn't. He didn't do anything but dodge ceros then ww came, impaled his friend and got shot in the back.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Well, this all depends on how perceptive Kyouraku's opponent is and I'm not sure if Ichigo is that good in that sense. So, I tend to think Kyouraku will be a very difficult opponent for him with his versatile Shikai techniques.



    He was talking about dealing with Starkk's speed, I assume. Sure, Cero Metralleta was keeping him busy, but until Wonderweiss intervened and Starkk used that opening, Kyouraku wasn't losing that fight, nor winning. That's why he said he was about to go Bankai had Ukitake hadn't intervened, since he wasn't gaining any ground over Starkk with Shikai alone at that point.
    When they were engaged in close combat, they were pretty close if you ask me, so, I wouldn't say he was losing the fight.
    I was talking about Starrk in general. Ceros weren't going to do anything. Bankai only came up when Juushiro said something about it. And what he said was that Shunsui had no intention of using it.

    I dont think people understand Shunsui's games. Urahara, Ichigo, whoever don't know any of the games nor their rules. Who would figure out the games unless he gives you hints or gives it away with a dumb move? In honesty he can end the fight in one or two moves. And it doesn't even have to be the same game.
    Last edited by freshseth83; August 12, 2013 at 02:48 AM.

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    Re: Bleach Tournament Third Place: Ichigo vs Shunsui

    Quote Originally Posted by freshseth83 View Post
    I dont think people understand Shunsui's games. Urahara, Ichigo, whoever don't know any of the games nor their rules. Who would figure out the games unless he gives you hints or gives it away with a dumb move? In honesty he can end the fight in one or two moves. And it doesn't even have to be the same game.
    Stark figured all games after one move. And he wasn't finished by 2 moves by Shunsui. His games are highly dependant on his and his Zanpakuto's mood.

    And Shunsui wanted to use Bankai, he was just hesitant and Juushiro commented on it. He was gonna use it to end it quickly, but Ukitake stopped him.

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