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Thread: Uvo vs Palm

  1. #16
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Uvo vs Palm

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron View Post
    So far as technology goes, they have tanks and they have fighter jets in the world of HXH. If a special knife can harm an aura user then you'd think military grade weapons ought to be able to hurt an aura user very easily, because it's not like the knife was constructed by some exotic material or technology. If it's just a quality of the item, it's hard to imagine most guns somehow have less penetrating power than the best made knives. Even if it's something like the knife is aura-coated as a function of the weapon's maker (which can't be everything there is because obviously any weapon used by an aura user is aura-coated by its user but not every random weapon used by an aura user could harm Silva) then it's just a matter of getting someone to infuse aura into all your ammunition. Of course in that scenario it'd be pretty silly too since that'd mean if they had some aura-infused sniper rounds Ubogin might've died in a single shot in the head.
    Kuroro poured his nen into the knife, presumably. I'm guessing that even weapons that are enhanced have a breaking point, and its breaking point is dependent on the material/expertise of construction. No idea what trick the maker of the benz knife employed, but it should be assumed that the knife is not some kind of run of the mill weapon, and certainly not equivalent to some run of the mill firearm.

    Quote Quote:
    Overall I'd say the reason why aura users appear strong is because their existence is relatively unknown so your average guy isn't aware of the tactics required to defeat them. But at the army level certainly they will have someone who knows how to deal with these guys, otherwise there's no way the world of HXH can even function as all the head of state ought to be aura users just because otherwise you'd have already been killed by one.
    Who knows whether these guys use nen or not? It was shown early in the manga that some politicians subconsciously use nen. And of course nen users who specialize in combat may of course willingly make themselves subservient to those who serve a greater purpose.

    Quote Quote:
    Again I'd like to point out that there's probably a reason why helicopters don't exist in HXH, because if they do it'd make the whole notion of aura user able to fight an army a joke. We know aura users are not capable of hitting aerial targets in a standoff distance with just aura alone, because if they can have an attack that does significant damage from that far away, they'd fight like Dragonball and just lob aura blasts at enemies barely in visual range. A helicopter can easily track an aura user's movement (they're slower than cars over any reasonable distance, which is why Spiders drive cars to chase down Kurapika) and I don't see how a 30mm chain gun can possibly do less damage than some special knife Kuroro managed to buy. Unless an aura user picks up a Stinger or whatever, there's virtually no way they can deal with a single helicopter piloted by someone who knows what he's dealing with, so an aura user is strictly weaker than a vehicle specialized for anti-ground warfare. Sure helicopters conveniently don't seem to exist in HXH, but that puts a rather low upper bound on what an aura user can do against an army.
    Didn't Franklin gun down dozens of helicopters?

    Helicopters and jets are great but let's face it, they're fragile. They must remain airborne for a reasonable amount of time which means the least possible amount of weight on the frame. I also have no doubt that nen users could easily hijack their own helicopter and fight enemy helicopters on a similar plane. Hisoka could probably reroute rockets with bungee gum and franklin could probably shoot them down.

    An army has the edge on nen users in only one respect: area of effect damage. Missiles and rockets fired indiscriminately to a general area will probably deal significant damage to nen users. But i would certainly not imagine the rank and file military grunt with their puny assault rifles, machine guns and even rocket launchers to pose much of a threat. Basically you would need heavy armor in large numbers, at a great distance, to stand a chance against high level nen users. On the other hand, guys like Squalla and that Nostrade head bodyguard would of course get gunned down quick.

  2. #17
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member
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    Re: Uvo vs Palm

    Imo the fight can go either way but i'm leaning more towards Palm cuz she's a chimera ant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron View Post
    There's a huge difference between 'guys with big guns' and a professional army. Unfortunately HXH did a very poor job trying to convey the said difference. A professional army is supposed to wipe the floor with aura users, which is why when the team of the world's most capable Hunters failed to stop Meryem, Knuckle's solution was to get a professional army. Of course you would never be able to tell that based on the story. Although there's this fascination with Mafia being powerful, they're not even professional murderers, like they said themselves. The mercenaries hired to guard the GI games are likely significantly stronger, and a professional army stronger still.
    Who the hell told you that? Maybe they'd beat weak nen users but they aren't doing shit to any experienced nen users unless they come with chemical weapons, air strikes, roses, and some amazing strategy. Otherwise they'd get demolished.

    ---------- Post added at 01:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:15 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron View Post
    The American army is widely believed to be able to fight the rest of the world's combined military might and still win in a conventional warfare. The American militia would have a hard time defeating the Canadian army if Canada invaded. It's pretty convenient that the world of HXH does not have helicopters because if helicopters exist in the world of HXH, you'd pretty much only need one heiocopter to take down any aura user because there's no way aura techniques can hit a helicopter in a standoff distance (if they can people should be able to fight each other via very long distances like Dragonball) and it's just a matter of time before you get gunned down. NRA enthuaists are probably more skilled with firearms than the Mafia. Whether in the world of HXH or real life, the point is not that the Mafia can even hold off a police force with some special teams let alone an army. It's that Mafia has connections to the government so they don't have to worry about fighting even a militia level entity (e.g. the police + SWAT team) because they will definitely lose.

    Of course I realize Killua also said he can stop tanks and fighter jets, which is actually quite absurd when you think about it. If he can stop fighter jets that means he must be able to throw projectiles a distance of perhaps in the kilometer range and still retain their full power. Perhaps what makes HXH especially worse is that at some level it tries to acknowledge the fact that military might is far superior to superpowers, except it totally failed to make it some convincing. Compared to most shonen that just always assumed military might is irrelevent implicitly.

    If it is so hard to defeat aura users, the world would be ruled by aura users by now. In particular the Hunter's Association, which is clearly the strongest organization when it comes to a group of aura users, would have no reason to need to take orders from anyone, and yet Netero said the Hunter's Association will take the responsibility for all the dirty work needed to defeat Meryem, which means they're still subservient to a nation-level entity (most liklely the equivalent of UN). That is, if someone caught the detail that a Rose was used, you can bet it's the Hunter's Association that will take the fall out, not whoever actually supplied the said weapon to Netero.
    Are you serious? First off idk why u don't think the HxH world doesn't have helicopters just bcuz togashi hasn't drawn any. Second off idk why u think a helicopter can kill a hypersonic nen user, thats one of the most completely absurd things i've ever heard. Also why is it absurd that killua can destroy fighter jets when you know he uses LIGHTNING and can move and react at the speed of lightning. I can see what ur saying that if nen users are so powerful why haven't they taken over the world but your forgetting all the tools a modern military has at their disposal (u know like chemical weapons, biological weapons, napalm air strikes, white phospherous shells, moabs if they exist in hxh, and those nukes called roses. Hell u can pretty much kill even the strongest nen user with a rose evidenced by what happened to meruem). U also forget other nen users can also fight each other and government can send their own nen users to kill them or just hire someone from the association. I can still see what ur saying that they could have taken over b4 all this technology but we don't know how adept ppl were with nen back then. For all we know no one had created until a system for identifying, categorizing, and training nen until very recently to the timeline of the manga (like 100 years ago for something). B4 then maybe ppl who unlocked nen didn't even no they could make hatsu or make a proper one, or put conditions on them. The hunter association is probably a recently made organization too after nen became streamlined now that ppl had a proper system to learn it under.

    ---------- Post added at 01:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:29 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron View Post
    In HXH we have both unreliable overall measurement of power (e.g. Meryem displays power by smashing walls, which is the same as Gon in Yorknew)
    Are u serious dude? Did you miss the part where he easily one shot multiple chimera ants and nen users with durability higher than wall level? Or when he EASILY ripped off Netero limbs where as Netero is a character with some of the strongest nen and durability in the series or did you just miss that? Going off his huge amount of nen and power alone he is casually multi-city block level.

  3. #18
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member
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    Re: Uvo vs Palm

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron View Post
    So while Spiders are a strong organization they're not even capable of having an extended war with the Mafia.
    Uvogin single handedly took out half of the Shadow Beasts, the "muscle" of the Mafia - they are more then capable of waging war. Zeno told the mafia brass that, even if he were to give them all back their weapons, he could still kill them all in 7 seconds. And he, tag-teaming with Silva (who is the head of Zoldyck family, and thus at least on par with Zeno), was unable to kill Chrollo when Chrollo wasn't even blood-lusted. So you're dead wrong there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron View Post
    At the Ant arc, Killua can pretty much kill fodder Ants without breaking a sweat just using his yoyo while the Spiders have to use considerable effort to do the same.
    Gon and Killua only ever get into one v. one confrontations with Soldier and Officer level Chimera Ants - they never go into direct one v. one with Squadron Leaders or Royals.
    The only Troupe member shown using any kind of "considerable effort" (and I use that term lightly) is Feitan, who is going up against a Squadron Leader.
    Morel and Knuckle (who are, as you say, "considered as guys capable of fighting a nation level power") are shown going up against Squadron Leaders, and exhausting way more effort than Feitan did going up against his.
    And to top it all off: one of those Squadron Leaders whom Knuckle and Morel faught against (and, get this, couldn't even manage to kill) was later taken out with one blow by Silva, the same man who was on par with the leader of the Troupe ONLY AFTER TEAMING UP WITH HIS FATHER.

    And I rest my case.

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  5. #19
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Demonspeed's Avatar
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    Re: Uvo vs Palm

    About the knives, they have been made by Benny Delon, who was a genius. So, not only the material is good but the knives contain his aura. If Chrollo adds his aura the knife is even more powerful. It's true that nen is complex HXH is still about power levels. Your abilities help but it will be very difficult to beat someone who has a stronger aura and masters the basis, this is the basic firepower used by all the Nen users. They can be hurt by weapons but if you don't use Shu it won't be very effective. Uvo has been hurt by Bazooka but it can't kill him. You can easily destroy things like iron with Nen and you can even kill an human with a single hit. Killua, who is a novice has been able to beat an army alone. It's not that the weapons can hurt him a little but he has the firepower( his basic nen skills + his electricity). During the Hunter exam he beaten his rivals rapidly, he can do the same to any normal army. Even if they launch a missile at him he can easily dodge it, or destroy it and I don't think normal guns would hurt him if he uses Ten. It's almost impossible for normal armies to beat them.
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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: Uvo vs Palm

    Quote Originally Posted by Demonspeed View Post
    Uvo has been hurt by Bazooka but it can't kill him. You can easily destroy things like iron with Nen and you can even kill an human with a single hit. Killua, who is a novice has been able to beat an army alone. It's not that the weapons can hurt him a little but he has the firepower( his basic nen skills + his electricity). During the Hunter exam he beaten his rivals rapidly, he can do the same to any normal army. Even if they launch a missile at him he can easily dodge it, or destroy it and I don't think normal guns would hurt him if he uses Ten. It's almost impossible for normal armies to beat them.
    What army? In the hunter exam? Killua could do it, because he can do it with or without Nen. You can't compare those guys to armed - to the teeth - men. Again, a normal army with a lazy ass commander would have been capable of killing Genthru and his boys, and they were far above Killua (at least, Genthru was). Sub, a first-class Nen user got taken out by a yo yo, and he has a higher Nen volume the Killua. A yo yo is obviously and ridiculously inferior to a Bazooka so...yeah. Killua taking an armed army isn't happening.

  7. #21
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Demonspeed's Avatar
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    Re: Uvo vs Palm

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    What army? In the hunter exam? Killua could do it, because he can do it with or without Nen. You can't compare those guys to armed - to the teeth - men. Again, a normal army with a lazy ass commander would have been capable of killing Genthru and his boys, and they were far above Killua (at least, Genthru was). Sub, a first-class Nen user got taken out by a yo yo, and he has a higher Nen volume the Killua. A yo yo is obviously and ridiculously inferior to a Bazooka so...yeah. Killua taking an armed army isn't happening.
    No. He took a real army ( one of his most badass moment):
    Spoiler show


    The yo-yo is not inferior to a bazooka. It's incredibly heavy and solid. Coupled with Killua's physical' s strength who can easily destroys a bazooka even without Nen and the centrifugal force it's a deadly weapon.

    I don't see in what the examinees are not comparable to armed men. They have the same reflexes and their strength or durability won't make a difference against Nen users. Even if they have armors or whatever, if they haven't Nen they can't do anything.
    Last edited by Demonspeed; August 30, 2013 at 07:40 AM.
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  8. #22
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: Uvo vs Palm

    Quote Originally Posted by Demonspeed View Post
    No. He took a real army ( one of his most badass moment):
    Spoiler show


    The yo-yo is not inferior to a bazooka. It's incredibly heavy and solid. Coupled with Killua's physical' s strength who can easily destroys a bazooka even without Nen and the centrifugal force it's a deadly weapon.

    I don't see in what the examinees are not comparable to armed men. They have the same reflexes and their strength or durability won't make a difference against Nen users. Even if they have armors or whatever, if they haven't Nen they can't do anything.
    First off, WTF? You obliterated my "who quoted me" Why did this happen?

    Second, the picture doesn't work for me unfortunately. If you could tell me the chapter or what army it was would be enough.

    Heavy, solid and with Killua's strength. But is not an anti-tank missile.

    Not true. We saw those balloon soldiers capable of pushing three Nen users to the corner with just guns and swords. We know that a bunch of armed men were capable of taking out Genthru and his boys. The examinees don't have armors and weapons. And they do make difference.

  9. #23
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Demonspeed's Avatar
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    Re: Uvo vs Palm

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    First off, WTF? You obliterated my "who quoted me" Why did this happen?

    Second, the picture doesn't work for me unfortunately. If you could tell me the chapter or what army it was would be enough.

    Heavy, solid and with Killua's strength. But is not an anti-tank missile.

    Not true. We saw those balloon soldiers capable of pushing three Nen users to the corner with just guns and swords. We know that a bunch of armed men were capable of taking out Genthru and his boys. The examinees don't have armors and weapons. And they do make difference.
    Internet problems... It has been made off-screen. He beat them just before attacking the ants in volume 23.

    We can't really tell what is stronger but Killua's yo-yos inflicts blunt damages while a missile inflicts damage via explosions but Killua can uses Nen with his yo-yos and Nen users are not tough enough to just endure a missile like Uvo, they'll avoid it and they can resist to it with Ten. Normal humans won't even have time to launch it in the first place because they can't keep up with their speed, Uvo was just playing while fighting the mafia and it was extremely one-sided. If it was Feitan or another Ryodan member it would have been way faster.

    I don't know who you are talking about in your 3rd paragraph and I don't remember someone taking out Gentrhu's team with weapons.
    Last edited by Demonspeed; August 30, 2013 at 07:38 AM.
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    Re: Uvo vs Palm

    Quote Originally Posted by Demonspeed View Post
    Internet problems... It has been made off-screen. He beat them just before attacking the ants in volume 23.

    We can't really tell what is stronger but Killua's yo-yos inflicts blunt damages while a missile inflicts damage via explosions but Killua can uses Nen with his yo-yos and Nen users are not tough enough to just endure a missile like Uvo, they'll avoid it and they can resist to it with Ten. Normal humans won't even have time to launch it in the first place because they can't keep up with their speed, Uvo was just playing while fighting the mafia and it was extremely one-sided. If it was Feitan or another Ryodan member it would have been way faster.

    I don't know who you are talking about in your 3rd paragraph and I don't remember someone taking out Gentrhu's team with weapons.
    Can't seem to recall it.

    A missile also inflicts penetrating damage, plus explosion and burning damage. Any Nen user outside Enhancement group will be unable to resist a missile with Ten. They can dodge it or take out the attacker, but they can't keep doing that against an army.

    Tsezegera stated that he prepared armed guards to take out Genthru and his team. Being the cautious man he is, surely he knows what he's doing.

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    Re: Uvo vs Palm

    Even if he said that that means those guards were probably Nen users too. Battera knew about Nen and his advisor, Tsezugera said Gon and Kil were not qualified. It means those armed guards were most likely strong Nen users.

    I say it again, Killua beat an army, even if it was offscren he still did it and nobody can contest it because it's a plot point. Genthru is way stronger than Killua so he can do it even more easily.
    Last edited by Demonspeed; September 01, 2013 at 04:32 PM.
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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: Uvo vs Palm

    Quote Originally Posted by Demonspeed View Post
    Even if he said that that means those guards were probably Nen users too. Battera knew about Nen and his advisor, Tsezugera said Gon and Kil were not qualified. It means those armed guards were most likely strong Nen users.

    I say it again, Killua beat an army, even if it was offscren he still did it and nobody can contest it because it's a plot point. Genthru is way stronger than Killua so he can do it even more easily.
    Nope, they were ordinary men. We saw their leader, and he's just a lazy ass military commander who got killed by Genthru the instant he came out of the game.

    Do you remember the chapter?

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    Re: Uvo vs Palm

    I remember only the leader, a bit and I don't know the chapter. I don't remember about it well. Even if their leader is a normal soldier it doesn't mean the others can't use Nen. Like with Ming Jol- Ik, some of his subordinates could have Nen. If Tsezugera really hired guys without nen to beat Genthru it would mean he is pretty stupid. And he is not, I guess some soldiers are Nen users or he hired them because he was desperate.
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    Re: Uvo vs Palm

    They're military dudes, and since their leader is a normal guy and he got paid about the same amount as them, I doubt they are Nen users. Why would they knuckle under a lazy ass normal guy if they are Nen users?

    Tsezugera isn't stupid, he's careful and will only fight when he's 100% sure of victory. This isn't stupidity, it shows that Nen users aren't invincible and will still be overwhelmed with numbers.

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    Re: Uvo vs Palm

    HXH does a bad job at trying to integrate military, which is another example of Togashi trying to bite for more than he can chew as most shonen simply have the military being invisible or irrelevent.

    Killua have no attacks that can affect the Dragonfly Ant that hovers in a distance where he's clearly visible, but somehow he is able to take out fighter jets that can attack far from visible range. The lobster ant's aura blast can punch through similar rank Ant's body, but cannot penetrate the frontal armor of a cheap looking tank. Yet, despite Ants having physical durability that are unmatched by humans, Ubogin is supposed to be able to withstand an anti-tank missile while taking no damage. Tsezugera's hired men are only professional mercenaries. They're not even the professional army and they're supposed to be enough to take out several decent aura users if working together.

    An aura user will pretty much get slaughtered by an army if he's facing them in an open terrain. Now the guy can probably run away and hide, but that's hardly facing the army. The US army, far more potent than the army seen in HXH (which doesn't even have helicopters which would destroy aura users), would have a hard time tracking down your local murderer too if that guy covered his track well, but you wouldn't say this guy can take on the army. Aura is not magic sauce, and even a magic yoyo isn't going to do more damage than a non magical anti-tank missile. The only reason why Killua was able to disrupt the army was because that army was also controlled by Pitou which meant they're really just puppets. They're probably worse than the Mafia (who are just a bunch of guys with machine guns) in terms of skill. For example we see that when Kite was controlled by Pitou he's only capable of executing very simple punches. Therefore an army remote controlled by Ptiou can only do very basic things because they have no free will. This is why the Ants are building their army because you need some level of expertise that you can't get from puppets to make a competent army.

    It's actually pretty funny since after Netero completed his training his fist is now faster than the speed of sound, so his fist speed is definitely below that prior to his trainng and yet we can assume he's already one of the most powerful guys in the world at that point. Wikipedia says the speed of a bullet is slightly slower than the speed of sound, so you can either train like Netero to have an attack that's faster than the common handgun, or just use a handgun if you're pretty sure you're not the next Netero. Perhaps originally it's intended to be a D&D thing like aura users requires aura to hit, except with the Rose we know this is most definitely not true. I don't know if it's ignorance, but the US army would easily annihilate most fictional magical worlds that do not have a 'requires magic sauce to hit' (easiest example would be One Piece), and yet most fictional worlds treat the army as if it's nothing.

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    Re: Uvo vs Palm

    Flutter has his drangonflies who helps him and there is a lot of means to hit someone even if he is flying, especially when the pilots can't even follow you with their eyes and can be killed with only one move imbued with Nen, even by just throwing a rock. Ants bodies are not necessarily harder than iron( they are just more durable than regular) humans and Bloster's attacks haven't been described as particularly strong but there is no doubt he can destroy a tank with bare hands, Bungee Gum isn't able to destroy a tank but Hisoka can easily do this with Shu or a punch.

    Pitou used Ming Jol ik to control the army, she wasn't controlling all humans, she used only one of them to control the mass, it's the reason why they announced on the News that they should not go out, it would have been pointless if they were controlled. And even if they were, they wouldn't necessarily be weakened because they are not Nen users with high battle capacity like Kaito, they should even be stronger since they would be more focused on one goal. Kaito was weak because his Nen was sealed by Knuckle and Shoot and also because he couldn't fight like the strong fighter that he was, his movements were mechanical in order to train low level soldiers, who are still way stronger than normal humans( and even with that level Knuckle said it would be difficult for Gon, who has reflexes superior to normal to dodge them) a normal human wouldn't be weakened by that.

    I thought the fist "faster than sound" was a bit dumb at first but it was just a pure physical feat. I guess it shows he was one of the only ones being able to do this in his era and maybe he didn't even know Nen, the fights didn't seem to be Nen battles and he acquired that speed by pure physical training. A lot of people can dodge bullets easily and Killua can dodge a knife at point blank even in his sleep. Leol's attack( a squadron leader) is said to be supersonic and Morel dodged it.

    You say US army can beat them with coordination but how are they supposed to move with coordination when they are not even able to react to their attack, their weapons can't resist to Nen attacks because you can only counter Nen, with Nen( Conjurers use conditions for a reason). An army is supposed to fight another one, you really think their coordination is so good they can focus on a single moving target together? I don't think it's possible. They don't even have to run and hide, a guy like Killua can just rush and blindly destroy them, he has the reflexes and the speed to dodge absolutely anything. It would be like how Meruem defeated Knuckle and Meleoron, he reaches lightspeed and they have no time to react. When Killua passed the exam, they couldn't even understand what was happening and now he is even faster.

    You can say that HXH army is not as competent as US's one but the fact is that HXH technology is similar to our world. So the army is not really that different, Killua beat an army so it's reasonable to think he could do that to US army.
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/signaturepics/sigpic172142_24.gif

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