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Thread: ~となってもらうために - Having issues understanding

  1. #1
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member Aarowaim's Avatar
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    ~となってもらうために - Having issues understanding

    Hey everyone!

    I'm doing a translation and I've run into a sentence that I can understand almost completely, until I run across a mind-bending little phrase at the end that I'm really not sure about. So, I've decided to cash in some karma and here's what I need some help with. I've done most of the translation myself, so I'll provide some of the remainder for proofreading/context.

    As for the context, one of the characters is a scientist who created some cyborgs. He is speaking to the main character, who is one of those cyborgs and just arrived at the research facility.

    永遠に少年の姿で生き続けなければならない運命を背負っていた
    And you’ve had to face the reality of living forever in a boy's body

    それをわっていたが
    Even though we knew that

    君の体を年齢ごとに作りかえる予算を
    We didn’t know for sure if we’d have the budget

    我々は確保できずにいた………………
    to make new bodies to match your age………………

    日常生活を送る上でそれが大きなストレスになると気づいた私は
    And if you had to live a normal life as well, I knew it would be very stressful

    過去の記憶を一旦封印し記憶を3年ごとにリセットすることにしたのだ
    So after we preserved your previous memories, we decided to have them reset every 3 years.

    Here's the sentence giving me trouble, in particular, it is the となってもらうために I'm having issues with.
    有事の際には再び00ナンバーサイボーグを束ねるリーダーとなってもらうためにな
    We needed a leader to once again unite the 00 cyborgs in the event of an emergency

    となってもらうために, at least to me, appears to mean 'for the sake of having'. Am I misinterpreting the phrase? I know that になる means 'to become X', and that ために is more or less 'for the purpose of', but I have no clue what となってもらう means exactly. In terms of what I'm looking for, I would prefer an explanation, synonym, or example translation of the meaning, rather than a simple dictionary entry. I am familiar with the meanings of the words involved, but they are tied together in a way that is hard for me to understand.

    Thanks ahead of time for any help. ^_^
    Last edited by Aarowaim; August 14, 2013 at 08:19 PM.
    There is a fine line between bad and good, and an even finer line between good and great.
    Even the most impossible dreams can become possible with time.

  2. #2
    Translator 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member cmertb's Avatar
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    Re: ~となってもらうために - Having issues understanding

    As I'm sure you've looked up already, morau means "to receive". When it follows a -te verb, it implies receiving the benefit of the action of the verb. So while ~to naru is simply "to become", ~to natte morau is "to become for me/us", not really a huge difference in meaning in this case. In general, you should spend some time to understand the whole concept of giving and receiving in Japanese, all words used and their keigo equivalents, not just this one word.

    Also, 封印 means seal as in "block", not "preserve".
    我は怠惰そのものである。

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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member Aarowaim's Avatar
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    Re: ~となってもらうために - Having issues understanding

    Ah, thank you ^_^b ! I've seen になる before, but となる is something I haven't seen in the past. In terms of giving and receiving, I am quite well versed and the もらう itself didn't slip me up, although it seemed really strange to say that someone 'became X for you'. /上げる 差し上げる/ /もらう いただく/ /くれる 下さる/, those are from the top of my head, but I'm not sure if I have every version.

    In the context, it appears to me that 封印 is being used in the sense of 'lock-in' or 'back-up', because it wouldn't make much sense if the characters didn't even have their pre-cyborg memories and had to start anew every three years.
    http://zikkir.net/words/封印 - as far as I can tell, my instinct was correct, and it means to create/stow away a backup, or to protect the memories from being reset. It does appear to have the meaning of 'block', but in very limited circumstances. In the dictionaries I use (imi wa? and midori, both based off of JDIC), the verb that most directly means 'block' seems to be 塞ぐ or possibly 封じる.
    Last edited by Aarowaim; August 15, 2013 at 01:21 AM.
    There is a fine line between bad and good, and an even finer line between good and great.
    Even the most impossible dreams can become possible with time.

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    Intl Translator 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member Sohma Riku's Avatar
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    Re: ~となってもらうために - Having issues understanding

    Quote Quote:
    As I'm sure you've looked up already, morau means "to receive". When it follows a -te verb, it implies receiving the benefit of the action of the verb. So while ~to naru is simply "to become", ~to natte morau is "to become for me/us", not really a huge difference in meaning in this case. In general, you should spend some time to understand the whole concept of giving and receiving in Japanese, all words used and their keigo equivalents, not just this one word.
    I wouldn't say -to natte morau literally translate to "to become for me/us", because that sounds awkward, but it's along those lines of feeling. My teacher once explained it all like this.
    -te kureru = somebody does something for me, and I'm grateful.
    -te ageru = somebody (or I) does something for someone with good intention.
    -te morau = someone gives something to me and I'm grateful.

    So, normally your sentence would have to carry a certain feeling of gratefulness, but considering the context , -te morau should also be interpreted as "I'm doing this and I hope you don't mind. If you do mind, that's too bad for you, because I do it anyway." In the sentence they are like explaining what they did, why they did it, apologizing they did it without prior notice and asking the person to forgive them.

    Anyway, I the translation your did is quite okay, I wouldn't know right now how to make it better...

    For 封印, it means like: "to deal; to put a seal upon; hold down"... choosing "preserve" to translate it, doesn't make much sense to me.
    I'd got with something like: "We decided to seal away your memories, and have them be reset every 3 years (from now on)."
    So, the memories are still there, but he just can't access them. No back up made, nothing preserved, just sealed away. And they'll be reset all the time, because then he won't notice he doesn't age.

    Also, I'd personally replace the "to make new bodies" with "to rebuild your body"

    Then, the 少年の姿で should be "the body of a young boy" not "a boy's body". If they wanted the latter one, they would've used 男子の姿 or something. 少年 is used to put emphasis on the fact how he won't age, because he's a cyborg.
    An for 運命を背負っていた I would use "bear [shoulder] a destiny"
    Full sentence would be something along the lines of: "You shouldered a destiny of having to live as a young boy forever." (It doesn't make sense that this sentence is in the past though...)

    Then about 日常生活を送る上でそれが大きなストレスになると気づいた私は
    上で means "on top of"
    "We realized that on top of having to lead your daily life, that would put a lot of stress on you," [so we decided to seal away your memories, and have them be reset every 3 years]
    (that = the fact that you don't age and stay a young boy forever)

    So for the last sentence with the となってもらう I would go with something like this: "It was all to make you into the leader (because we needed a leader) who would re-unite the 00 cyborgs in the event of an emergency." [so please forgive us for deciding all this without asking your permission first!]

    Ah, that became a bit longer than expected... I hope it's of some help to you.

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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member Aarowaim's Avatar
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    Re: ~となってもらうために - Having issues understanding

    Oh, thanks for the reply Sohma Riku!
    Looks like you've got a lot to help me with. The first paragraph, on the use of ~てもらう is basically what I understand it to be, but I haven't heard it put quite that way before. It'll be useful in the future, so I'll make sure to remember it.
    Spoiler show


    Moving on, 封印.
    Spoiler show


    In terms of that replacement (rebuilding vs. make new), that was once again my misinterpretation.
    Spoiler show


    As for the sentence about living eternally, etc, I was aware of the literal meanings and was trying my best to make it sound like natural English, and in order to do that, I had to do a bit of paraphrasing.
    Spoiler show


    Finally, onto the last one ^_^
    You are right about ~上で, and I recall making the same mistake before as well. I tend to avoid repeating the same thing, even in something as simple as 'On top of that, living a normal life...', so I wrote 'living a normal life as well'. They have the same meaning, but at the same time, my translation isn't as direct and greatly suffers a reduction in the importance of ~上で. Thanks for the keen eye there!

    P.S.
    Please excuse my ruthless use of emboldening and spoilers, but I didn't want the important parts to drown in my lovely ocean of text ^_^;
    With your help, I can see why and where I made my mistakes, and as far as I know there's only one correction of yours I'm not entirely content with (in the last spoiler). If you have an alternative translation, I'm willing to hear it.
    Last edited by Aarowaim; August 15, 2013 at 07:35 PM.
    There is a fine line between bad and good, and an even finer line between good and great.
    Even the most impossible dreams can become possible with time.

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    Intl Translator 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member Sohma Riku's Avatar
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    Re: ~となってもらうために - Having issues understanding

    Great to hear my rant was of some use.

    About the last one, I can only say once again, I think it's important to use "young boy" and not just "boy", to emphasize how he won't be aging.

    In the end I feel like the っていた would be along the the lines of "would have had to"... if that even makes sense...
    There was this fate that he would have [must have] to face, but they already fixed the problem for him... and that's why they use the past tense.

    "You're a cyborg now, (so) you would have had to face the fate of of living as a young boy forever."

    Not a perfect translation, but I hope it's of some help. ^_^

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