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Translations: Gintama 507 (2)
Hello! (this is a bit lengthy post ^^;
I happen to be self though scanlaitor that 95% of the time worked as leader of the group(s) as well. So I never got the chance to learn from somebody else and only help myself with all tutorials found online. But at this point I believe this is not sufficient any more.
Since I function as leader in current (small) group I need to deal with sort of quality check and final file saving before I zip and release them.
I don't consider myself top-notch editor so quality check I do is rather mediocre.
However I would like to improve the things I can to make final product look better.
I've read many tutorials but many of them failed to explain few things for me. So I'm hoping you'll be able to do that. I know that most of it will be your personal opinion so I'd really appreciate if you'd tell what are the differences (compared to other methods) because of which you prefer to work the way you do.
-single page vs. double page
I'm raw provider for my group and I do not cut books. I rarely come across a page that would really need me doing that and with a good press on the spine I can get rid of most of the gutter shadow so I think for the moment cutting books is not necessary for us.
However I've seen many times people explaining scanners should scan page by page. Why?
editor can simply cut the image in half and work on each half separately. I know that this part is not demanding but I've read that single pages make life much easier to editors. In what why?
I've also seen arguments that if you scan double page than each individual page will be to small. I've tested this only once but the size increases only if the dpi increases.
In most cases I've seen 300 and I'm using this as well (it is still faster than 400) but i also read that having a 3000+px picture is preferred by editors. However a normal manga scanned at 300 gives me a bit over 2000px high image file. Am I just confusing here recommendations for (JUMP) magazine scans vs. tankobon scans? If so what is recommended for tankobon scans (since I mostly work with those, and magazines I worked with are printed in similar quality as tankobons).
-what program to use for scanning. (with setting and saving options)
I think I'm not willing to try exporting to PS directly atm. What I have currently supports only WIA and that means I need to show the program each time how much I want scanned ie. I use to much of a time.
Since I have Cannon 4400F (will be changed in moth and half, is Canon 8800F still one of most recommended for reasonable price) I'm using the programs that came with it. Namely ArcSoft PhotoStudio and ScanGear is the interface when scanning. I don't use any filters and I presume that is still the best thing I can do, right?
But what about saving the file? Till now I've always saved in jpg at 95 compression (regardless if it's B&W or colour). I find tiff to be to big, but would using png be better? If yes, why? I know that jpg is lossy but what informations are lost that are preserved in png? What I'd like to know is how does the loss in jpg at this stage affect the appearance of final scanlated image.
2. Final file saving
I can't seem to figure out what would be the best optimum between file/size/quality.
But lets say that with nowadays connections I can afford discarding the size. what options would be the best to use for saving?
-png vs. jpg
ironically I do use png for b&w and jpg for colour pages. if using save as... I save jpg at quality 10 or 11 (depending on mood). but would something different be recommended?
-Save as vs. save for web
what's the exact difference? I'm looking into save for web options again but I don't know which one would be better. In both you can choose to save either jpg or png. I do know that for web it offers some additional options, especially for png. But those options a bit over me. If I'm using it I try to use the same settings asKalendel suggests.
-grayscale 8/16/31 channel
In all honesty this is beyond me. but I've seen somewhere someone suggesting to use 16 instead of 8 based on the raw OP presented. Would somebody mind explaining what's the ketch?
-moiré patterns (33%/66%)
I've notices that almost every time I need to deal with moiré patterns. They're not visible when picture is at full size but if it's at 33% or 66% they're visible almost all the time. Different image viewers display this differently. Some go around it, some magnify it. And I have no idea where in the process of scanlation can I get rid of this. I've read suggestions that you could resize first using percentage than pixels and do it step by step until moiré patterns are gone and you're at desired height/width. Since many times I'm the one doing resizing this would be handy, but it never works for me.
I know that many times filters are suggested for this but I don't want to use them. More often than not the result looks a lot uglier to me than it did before.
This last one is the one that's bugging me the most actually.
I'm presenting here and example so you can have a go as well.
clean psd (originally not scanned by me so not something I could change with different scanning method).
And png, saved for web, png-8, adaptive, diffusion, 17 colors, dither 100% (same png with dither 0%)
Any suggestions, opinions and advices would be highly appreciated
Cutting a page is not necessary to debind. All you need to do is heat up the glue on the spine somehow and you can start pulling out the pages.
If you want, you can actually bind them again afterwards, you just need to get a bookbinding glue. They're not that expensive. I can't really recommend you any glue, since you live in a different country. You just need an "elastic" one - hard glues can crack with use of the pages, making them fall out.
This is a total myth - it only comes down to the additional work you're giving the editor.Quote:
They can, but so can you. Cut the pages, that is - that's what I do. I scan doubles and then split the "false doubles" into separate pages. I leave the real doubles together - this way, an editor will not miss a double.Quote:
It might not be that demanding, but it takes time too. Doing this unnecessary manual work can totally kill editor's mood for cleaning for the day - that's what happened with me and my old raw provider. After splitting his scans into separate pages, rotating and cropping them, I didn't really feel like making the actual cleans anymore. Not for another few hours at least.Quote:
Another myth. Though, perhaps it does happen with some lower quality scanners.Quote:
Nope, I like pages to be at least 3000px after cropping in whichever type of raw I'm using.Quote:
Again, this depends on a scanner - mine allows me to upscale the page without changing the dpi.
If I scan at 300dpi and 140-150% size, I'll get the 3000px high pages.
Some groups like their HQ scans to be at 600dpi. I've tried that for a volume or two. It didn't really improve anything. And since it takes a whole lot more of time to scan, I just stopped doing that.
I used to scan directly into Photoshop for a long time. Mainly because I wanted to split the pages before saving them. However, saving scanning, splitting and saving them one by one took too much time (the scanning software had to close and open each time), so I started scanning 20-30 pages at a time and then splitting and saving them both. Unfortunately, some times I forgot to take a break from scanning and Photoshop, having too many huge files in its memory, crashed, losing all of the recently scanned pages.Quote:
Now I just save the pages as .tiff and deal with spitting them later.
So it doesn't remembers your settings? At all? That'd be annoying.Quote:
I can't say I'm familiar with any Canon devices. I had no idea that 8800F was the most recommended one.Quote:
I'm using Epson V300 Photo and I couldn't be happier. At least not about the scanning quality. The cover does not provide a good pressure to the pages, so I put a A4 book with two heavy volumes on it to make sure the pages are perfectly flat.
It's not that much of work + you do not debind, so it wouldn't affect you anyway.
I'm not familiar with these programs, but the software provided with the hardware is usually good enough.Quote:
And yes, do not add any filters.
I currently use .tiff, before that (when I imported via Photoshop) saved straight to .psd. They might take a lot of space, but how does it matter exactly? You only need to uncompress them temporarily - most of the times that can be compressed. I recommend 7-zip and .7z compression at Ultra, LZMA2 - works way better than whatever .zip or .rar can provide.Quote:
If you still prefer smaller files, then you can use .jpg. Just don't use any compression - use the maximum quality (100 / 12).
PNG is not necessary - it much bigger than .jpg and I think it was causing some troubles too. Though, perhaps it was only PNG-8 from Photoshop's "Save as web...", which my old RP thought was a good way for conserving file sizes...
Anyway, .jpg does lose some quality, but for pages of 3000px high, it doesn't really matter - it won't be noticeable in the final product.
Lossless quality does give better results when you clean, but it's really hard to notice after resizing (if at all).
PNG-8 for b&w and jpg for color, yes.Quote:
For PNG-8 I use Adaptive (no dither), 48 colors.
Why 48? So far I haven't encountered a b&w page for which that would be not enough. 6 or 32 can sometimes not be enough. 64 and more is too much.
Since "PNG-8" only exists in "Save as Web...", use it for b&w pages.Quote:
For color pages... "Save as" is enough - there's not much difference in file size between it and "Web", and "Save" distorts the images slightly less.
What quality? Depending on the raw quality and how big you want the file to get, anything between 10 and 12 is ok.
IMO, 8-bit Grayscale is good enough.Quote:
16-bit just provides more shades of gray. Manga doesn't use that many.
You can also read this: http://askville.amazon.com/differenc...uestId=1629349
If you mean the visual effect that shows when zoom isn't at 25, 50 or 100%, then aren't they just that? A visual effect? I've never seen them at 100%, be it full size raw or the final, resized product - what do they matter?
If you mean something else, then please provide some samples. Screenshots or whatever you prefer.
I'm not exactly sure what you're asking about here.Quote:
The difference between both PNGs isn't noticeable to a naked eye. As for the difference between the PSD and the PNG, then yes, there is one.
Like I mentioned above, you 16 and 32 colors are sometimes not enough. Here, 17 colors isn't either. Try 48. It should be enough.
Also, PNG-8 darkens the pages that are in Grayscale - always change to RGB right before choosing "Save as web". The contrast won't change this way.
Oh, and... The "clean" is not 100% clean. Actually it looks a lot like a page that wasn't leveled again after denoising and saves as PNG-8 with differ, and then put into a PSD file.
If you use the white and black preview layers, you'll see the same type of noise on white and black like in the PNG files (which also aren't leveled properly), with the exception for the part where a white brush was used to remove the text.
Last edited by Gradonil_Ral; August 31, 2013 at 05:18 PM.
I'd rather take my chances with RGB - there's no way of knowing which pages sGray would affect positively and which not. I have the RGB conversion in my saving action, so it doesn't take any effort from me at all.
Re-binding does worry me in case I'll ever see that necessary, but I'll be dealing with that when the time comes.
Good to know most of it is a myth ^^ But definitely point take that I could split up the pages.Quote:
Unfortunately what I'm currently using doesn't allow me upscaling :/ or at least I haven found any function that would enable this.Quote:
And 600dpi for anything else than colour probably is just a waste of time ^^
No it doesn't save the settings, that's why I'm working with the programs I got with the scanner.Quote:
Actually I bought my scanner about 7 years ago so it really is old and It was more of a coincidence I choose the right one (at the time 4400F was most often recommended) as for 8800F I'm just asking based on topics in this section that are dealing with scanning, but I think the newest is from 2010 or something winch is pretty old in itself as well. I'll take a look at Epson too, I like the idea of being able to upscal the image.Quote:
I'm not that familiar with tiff so I'm hesitant to use it. Huge size doesn't help either, thanks to that I don't know how compressible the file is, and the final size (for raw) of zip/rar/7z is important to since my connection is awfully slow. But I guess it wouldn't hurt experimenting a bitQuote:
Thank you! I always though something wrong with the final picture and I tried with 32 colours but something was still off, I just never knew what. Hopefully this will solve my problemQuote:
It's when patterns start to overlap and create new ones even though they're not really there. Google gives you many examples but in manga its a bit different. Essentially it's what you said the effect when the zoom isn't at certain percentage. For a while now I'm suspecting this depends on the size of the image, but than again I've seen releases where these patterns are not present no matter at what percentage the zoom is while others have it. I know that different image viewers present this differently but using default Windows viewer (which I presume most readers use) it looks like this:Quote:
It's most blatantly obvious on second panel. Of course when put into slide show its different, but on second panel is still easily noticeable:
I just wondered if its possible to get rid of this and not ruin the actual patterns?
With "clean" i meant no text ^^;; but thank you for reminding me of contrast... I usually do this with levels only and sometimes over level by point or two :/Quote:
The particular picture actually went through many levelling already since it was not scanned by me. The scanner in this case scanned for public and done some very basic crop/straighten/level job often making an editors job a nightmare. (cause the page is not straight as well but rotating any more would do more damage than good in this case.)
And the sGray appears to be hit or miss. Good to know.
Well, Windows Photo Viewer was meant as a quick way for normal people to view their photos. It was certainly not meant for viewing manga xD Its resizing script is poorly made.
You should just stop using it. Really. There's no point.
I recommend "CDisplay" (not the EX version|). It's the easiest/smallest manga reading program that I know of. It can read the images that you load into it or the images that are in the zip/rar archives you choose. You can resize the pages in it and no moire patterns will appear. You can read through the entire chapter just bu using scroll in your mouse (or you can change the mouse settings to act the way you want). You can even change color balance, etc. - I use it for older releases where pages haven't been leveled properly.
And what I like the most, is that it opens on full screen with no menus whatsoever - nothing to distract you from reading (if you prefer a normal window, you can change to that too).
In any case, it has all the necessary options.
And no, Windows Viewer is most the most used option for reading manga - online reader are. Most of people that aren't too lazy to download manga are also not too lazy to find an offline manga reader that work for their needs.
I think that the moire patterns might not appear depending on the height of the page, its sharpness and contrast (how much you leveled). Also I've tested a few types of releases just now, even my own cleans, and it seems that they appear most often on denoised pages. Topaz does clean up the real patterns nicely, but it also slightly reshapes them - if you resized a raw to the same size as a cleaned page and compared them both, you wouldn't probably see any moire patters on the raw. Or, if you did, they would be far less noticeable than on the clean.Quote:
Even if the raws came pre-leveled, if you use any filters - be it topaz filters, surface blur, or another way of denoising - you need to always slightly level afterwards. The adjustment layers from the video I linked in my previous post show all leftover dirt/noise - they can be useful for choosing the settings for the first leveling, or the last one. I use them each time I level.Quote:
I also use them when I burn/dodge the leftover noise/dirt out.
I also used to have a merge all and convert to sRGB in my saving action too, but it was annoying when I sometimes needed to save manually.
Last edited by DrPepperPro; September 01, 2013 at 01:03 PM.
Merge all? Why would you merge all?
My action (for saving gray pages) goes like this:
1. Convert to RGB (without flatten).
2. Export (Save as Web: PNG-8 Adaptive 48 colors)
3. Convert to Grayscale (without flatten).
4. Save (the psd).
5. Next document.
And my batch action just plays it 19 times (the number of pages most chapters have -> 20 with one double = 19).
Oh, merge all just to make sure levels layers don't change with the profile change.
Oh, I merge down the levels layers as I go. There's no need to merge the rest.
I tried CDisplay though and while it reduces moire greatly it's still there... just a bit though ^^
Yeah, I think it's on me now to play with size and contrast now. The ketch is that I don't use any denoise filters at all. 99% of the time I work with tankobon scans anyway and using filters on them just makes things worse. That's why I always found it strange.Quote:
As you said raw at same size as clean page doesn't show them. Lol.. actually now that I think about it the answer was always right in front of me xD
I remembered one more thing... what's better and why. Making final resize before typesetting or after? Editors send me both depending on how they were taught in the past...