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Thread: Chakra Control

  1. #166
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Exodi's Avatar
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    Re: Chakra Control

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post

    I'm seriously tired of this whole "not praising every single chance you get = hater!" or "defending = fanboy!" logic, and it's just stupid.
    Not to sound like I'm complaining or anything, but seeing post after post of people calling each other "haters" has seriously made me consider just not posting here anymore, at least in the Naruto forum. It's annoying and unfruitful to any discussion whatsoever. The condescension and pretense isn't useful - at all.

    I know that by making this post, I, too, am contributing to the lack of real substance (at least pertaining to the topic of the thread), but I figured I'd make it known to everyone.

    We all love Naruto, people.

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    Re: Chakra Control

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Exodi explained this perfectly.
    He didn't explain anything other than observing and summarizing the discussion and adding "kind off" effect to it. I replied with an argument to which he didn't respond afterwards. Go figure.

  3. #168
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Schabrak's Avatar
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    Re: Chakra Control

    True, Exodi's main argument was that "un-used chakra could be used for something". Thanks, but I think every single member partaking in this discussion has gone into this thread knowing that already. Nor has he mentioned the point of the one-handed Rasengan, turning the clone problem mute, if Naruto keeps on doing them so.

    Do you M3J and Exodi agree that Naruto is capable of using hundreds of clones at once? If yes, don't you agree, that the creation of a ten or so clones wouldn't take away much from his complete chakra pool? That so little is lost producing the clonea[and nothing else is lost as everything would return at will], that it didn't really matter in the grand scheme, that Naruto rather lost his the majority of chakra constantly using RM/SM/creating various kinds of Rasengan? I would appreciate an answer.
    Last edited by Schabrak; September 16, 2013 at 02:50 PM.
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  4. #169
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Exodi's Avatar
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    Re: Chakra Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    True, Exodi's main argument was that "un-used chakra could be used for something". Thanks, but I think every single member partaking in this discussion has gone into this thread knowing that already. Nor has he mentioned the point of the one-handed Rasengan, turning the clone problem mute, if Naruto keeps on doing them so.

    Do you M3J and Exodi agree that Naruto is capable of using hundreds of clones at once? If yes, don't you agree, that the creation of a ten or so clones wouldn't take away much from his complete chakra pool? That so little is lost producing the clonea[and nothing else is lost as everything would return at will], that it didn't really matter in the grand scheme, that Naruto rather lost his the majority of chakra constantly using RM/SM/creating various kinds of Rasengan? I would appreciate an answer.
    I've already answered the topic's question and explained my case. Read my posts if you'd like an answer from me.

  5. #170
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Schabrak's Avatar
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    Re: Chakra Control

    That's one way out too. haha A simple yes or no would have been enough. I've read all your posts, but none gave an answer to this, if it is a noticable loss of chakra. Naruto may also stop jumping using chakra or running at all, as all that wastes a bit of chakra. And as you wrote, yes it would be better if Naruto uses no clone to create a Rasengan.

    You tried to change the topic in the first post already, so maybe I shouldn't have asked in the first place.
    Quote Originally Posted by Exodi View Post
    Now that Naruto has access to an incomprehensible amount of chakra and vast amount of power, what can we say about his basic ninja skills in comparison to his peers? Chakra control, speed, taijutsu, genjutsu, et cetera.
    edit: Okay I'm sorry, the bolded part implies that it doesn't really matter.
    Last edited by Schabrak; September 16, 2013 at 03:40 PM.
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  6. #171
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Exodi's Avatar
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    Re: Chakra Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    That's one way out too. haha A simple yes or no would have been enough. I've read all your posts, but none gave an answer to this, if it is a noticable loss of chakra. Naruto may also stop jumping using chakra or running at all, as all that wastes a bit of chakra. And as you wrote, yes it would be better if Naruto uses no clone to create a Rasengan.

    You tried to change the topic in the first post already, so maybe I shouldn't have asked in the first place.
    Dang, you caught me. It's a shame I made that post randomly and not in response to a question asking what the purpose of the thread was.



    Quote Quote:
    Do you M3J and Exodi agree that Naruto is capable of using hundreds of clones at once?
    No.

    Kidding, obviously. And I can't speak for M3J, since I'm not M3J.

    Quote Quote:
    If yes, don't you agree, that the creation of a ten or so clones wouldn't take away much from his complete chakra pool?
    He's been known to make a clone or two. I'll have to go back and check.

    Quote Quote:
    That so little is lost producing the clonea[and nothing else is lost as everything would return at will], that it didn't really matter in the grand scheme, that Naruto rather lost his the majority of chakra constantly using RM/SM/creating various kinds of Rasengan? I would appreciate an answer.
    No.

    Not kidding, this time. Over time, the spent chakra adds up. Leading to exhaustion, even for the powerhouse that Naruto is.
    I'm aware of everything Naruto has done during the war. I think Kagebunshin is a huge part of that, bigger than what you are making it out to be.
    He did make a lot of clones.

    And is there really a way that we have to quantify the amount of chakra Naruto uses to make all of those clones vs. all of those Rasengan? Until there is, telling me that the Kagebunshin didn't matter in the overall scheme of things won't sit well with me.


    Especially when Kagebunshin (Tajuu) has, from the beginning, been known as being forebidden because of what it does to someone's chakra.
    Last edited by Exodi; September 16, 2013 at 03:50 PM.

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    Re: Chakra Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Exodi View Post
    Especially when Kagebunshin (Tajuu) has, from the beginning, been known as being forebidden because of what it does to someone's chakra.
    Which is why Naruto's using it so casually and constantly. Because he has a ridiculous amount of chakra. God...

  9. #173
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Schabrak's Avatar
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    Chakra Control - Let us dream

    Quote Originally Posted by Exodi View Post
    Dang, you caught me. It's a shame I made that post randomly and not in response to a question asking what the purpose of the thread was.

    Not kidding, this time. Over time, the spent chakra adds up. Leading to exhaustion, even for the powerhouse that Naruto is.
    I'm aware of everything Naruto has done during the war. I think Kagebunshin is a huge part of that, bigger than what you are making it out to be.
    He did make a lot of clones.

    And is there really a way that we have to quantify the amount of chakra Naruto uses to make all of those clones vs. all of those Rasengan? Until there is, telling me that the Kagebunshin didn't matter in the overall scheme of things won't sit well with me.

    Especially when Kagebunshin (Tajuu) has, from the beginning, been known as being forebidden because of what it does to someone's chakra.
    150+ posts show how much "chakra contro/maintenance/utilization" was worth a discussion, not his other skill sets.

    Let's imagine Naruto wouldn't fall to PIS during the war, let's imagine he would create kage bunshins to create chakra tanks for when he's in need. He has the means and anyone with a brain would use them, but Kishi doesn't let him, so that he won't be any more overpowered, to give readers an untimely damn laugh. For Naruto those clones are helpful to the extreme, yet the author doesn't seem to intend to use one of the smartest things he as ever done for combat ever again. It's sad, but it's not Naruto's fault Imo.

    It's not quantifiable, but using logic and the manga as evidence it will very likely take [far] less chakra to create a clone than a rasengan. The rational for that can be found in my comments towards charmilion.

    That was to make the technique from the chapter that's supposed to attract most readers look significant and it was. Yet it has also simultaneously shown us how many Naruto was able to create, a number so high no other opponent was able to match him in such feat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    Which is why Naruto's using it so casually and constantly. Because he has a ridiculous amount of chakra. God...
    Admitting that it's an immeasurable while putting up the argument that any chakra wasted could be used more wisely somewhere else, I don't even understand that rational. As mentioned before, he better be carried and teleported all the time or else he might lose chakra on movement too. That's how this ridiculous it appear to me.

    Not the the bunshins made him lose so much energy, but the gargantum rasengans/fuuton rasenshurikens did.
    Last edited by Schabrak; September 17, 2013 at 08:02 AM. Reason: grammar
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  11. #174
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Chakra Control - Let us dream

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Let's imagine Naruto wouldn't fall to PIS during the war, let's imagine he would create kage bunshins to create chakra tanks for when he's in need. He has the means and anyone with a brain would use them, but Kishi doesn't let him, so that he won't be any more overpowered, to give readers an untimely damn laugh. For Naruto those clones are helpful to the extreme, yet the author doesn't seem to intend to use one of the smartest things he as ever done for combat ever again. It's sad, but it's not Naruto's fault Imo.
    No, it is Naruto's fault. Granted, the reason it's his fault is because Kishi is an asshole and a terrible writer, but Kishi has clearly made Naruto out to be a certain kind of person. He's given him a certain intelligence level, and has given him certain things he is good at, and things he is bad at. That's a cop out to say it "isn't his fault". Itachi's sickness is a case of circumstances. Should we say it's Kishi's fault as well for that? What about the inherent evil eyes all Uchiha are born with? Is that Kishi's fault too? It's part of the story, and we need to accept it.

    Naruto is an idiot. Kakashi had to explain to him about the learning experience of Kage Bushin, even though he had been using the technique for 3 years. Naruto wouldn't create chakra tanks for himself because it's not something he would think of, not to mention I don't think it's even possible for him to do so.

    Naruto often times creates a dozen clones when 3 or 4 would suffice. He does this because he isn't Kakashi or Itachi and simply tries to overwhelm his opponent, not out maneuver them.

    Naruto often creates two Rasengans when one would do the trick. He often creates a massive one when a regular one would be fine. Naruto is over the top. He doesn't do things on a small scale, he does them on a large one. (And if anyone shows the Mini FRS I'll drop kick you through your computer).

    Despite this being his personality, it shows that he over does things and can be wasteful. You say it takes far less chakra to create a clone than to create a Rasengan. No argument from me. But how many more clones has he created than Rasengans? You cant say he hasn't been wasteful with some of his clones, and hell he's even been wasteful with some of his Rasengans.

    The question isn't whether or not his chakra control is good, because it's certainly up there with the best. His chakra control isn't leading to him wasting chakra. It's his tactics and intelligence that are doing so. I'm sure Roman will say this is "hating" but would Kakashi or Itachi run out of chakra as fast as Naruto if they were given the same amount as him with the same skills?
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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  13. #175
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Schabrak's Avatar
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    Re: Chakra Control

    But he's not such sort of idiot, why would he forget how he managed to save his village? Naruto thought it up the last time, why not again?

    Rasenrangan and Rasenkyuugan were useful and didn't appear like a waste. :P The mini Rasengan wouldn't have been enough. The mass kage bunshin at the end of 545 was indeed helpful to cover a lot of ground.

    Side note about the need of multiple hands. Zero real hands, six Rasengan.



    Naruto's chakra allows him such fighting style, like it did for Kisame, Hashirama or Madara too. Special people, it's not the characters personal fault for being made so. It clearly allowed the alliance to take care of some ETs.
    __

    After using the above mentioned techniques + a Fuuton:Rasenshuriken, he loses Kyuubi mode because of long usage while creating a single clone.

    Some chapters later, or rather simultaneous his clone is using a planetery Rasengan on Muu, a vain Rasenshuriken attack on Raikage, all while heavily implementing his chakra arms. Starts to create Bijudama to overcome defense, looses shroud again. Short wait, Frog-Fu induced Rasengan from two clones to finsih of the 3rd.

    Rest of the clones appear on the battlefields, finding and taking out Zetsu clones for which he has to rely on his kyuubi shroud, slowly starting to lose the shroud on some clones since he's fighting two dozen battles at once, helping all fronts to overcome their enemies.

    Madara appears, he's using Chou-Oodama Rasengan to supress ET Madara, failed[Susanoo], but three clones create a Rasenshuriken, again fail[Rinnegan].

    Kurama is willingly giving Naruto chakra to let him fight Madara[look how happy is is, still sure about Kurama getting friendly within 1-2 chapters?]. Uses it up for a taiju kage bunshin wall & a multitude of Dai Rasengan to stop Mokuten. Kage appear and he dissolves clone, Obito fight start.

    So far it seems like he used the appropriate approach, using sizes of Rasengan and his chakra hands wisely.


    Another play of thoughts: When he has 20 clones out, and uses kage bunshin to create two or three others, will their chakra pools be shared by three or by all twentytwo? If it's the second, he could create clones to get more chakra for that specific clone, enabling him to create a bigger Rasengan than if those two only had chakra from the one creating the clones.
    Last edited by Schabrak; September 17, 2013 at 09:55 AM.
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  15. #176
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Chakra Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    You're not objective, but then again, you're not a "hater" either. I can't seem to recall the post I addressed you as one.

    You can defend him all you want, but if that defense isn't enough, I'll step in, sorry. The rest of the people in this discussion usually bash him or downplay him and that's why I don't even bother getting into the discussion with them. Engaging in one with you should pretty much solve the enigma as I don't lump you in with them.
    Neither are you. You did not directly address me as a hater, but it's pretty obvious you think of me as a hater based on your posts. It doesn't have to be directed at anyone to know who you're talking about.

    Why wouldn't it be? I mean, I have provided good examples that directly contradict the manga's claim that Naruto is bad at chakra control by showing that despite his chakra being messed up horribly, he was still improving to the degree that even Ebisu was surprised. He even tried to make rasengan without a clone when trapped in Jirobou's jutsu, way after using a clone to make rasengan. Supports his Part I claim and contradicts his Part II claim horribly. Yet there are panels that show Naruto being bad in chakra control, like when he tried to summon Bunta when fighting Gaara and when going up against Orochimaru and Kabuto, but failed so hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    He didn't explain anything other than observing and summarizing the discussion and adding "kind off" effect to it. I replied with an argument to which he didn't respond afterwards. Go figure.
    He explained perfectly what I've been trying to convey. The only reason I'm responding to be honest is because I'm a masochist and like arguing/debating. Otherwise we're basically saying the same things over and over, with you making extra posts about how someone is deluded, blind, full of hatred, or whatever.
    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    True, Exodi's main argument was that "un-used chakra could be used for something". Thanks, but I think every single member partaking in this discussion has gone into this thread knowing that already. Nor has he mentioned the point of the one-handed Rasengan, turning the clone problem mute, if Naruto keeps on doing them so.
    We're also arguing that Naruto does tend to waste chakra and isn't good at chakra control if he needs a clone to make rasengan, which would take up extra chakra.

    The point of one-handed rasengan was probably already mentioned by me. Naruto mentioned it as well in his fight against Kabuto.

    Quote Quote:
    Do you M3J and Exodi agree that Naruto is capable of using hundreds of clones at once? If yes, don't you agree, that the creation of a ten or so clones wouldn't take away much from his complete chakra pool? That so little is lost producing the clonea[and nothing else is lost as everything would return at will], that it didn't really matter in the grand scheme, that Naruto rather lost his the majority of chakra constantly using RM/SM/creating various kinds of Rasengan? I would appreciate an answer.
    Yes, I agree.

    No, I disagree depending on the fight. In the war, it takes a lot away from his chakra pool. In a fight against fodders, it'd barely take anything away unless he continues fighting onward. It would matter, otherwise Naruto wouldn't have gotten so tired in the past.

    I have a question for you, Schabrak, and Roman. Do you think Naruto has unlimited chakra? That he'd never run out no matter how many kage bunshin he uses in one fight, can last through any and all fights? Do you think he never gets exhausted regardless of how long he has fought or how much chakra he has spent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    Which is why Naruto's using it so casually and constantly. Because he has a ridiculous amount of chakra. God...
    Yet it has not stopped him from running out or being nearly out of chakra.

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    Re: Chakra Control

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    I have a question for you, Schabrak, and Roman. Do you think Naruto has unlimited chakra? That he'd never run out no matter how many kage bunshin he uses in one fight, can last through any and all fights? Do you think he never gets exhausted regardless of how long he has fought or how much chakra he has spent?

    Yet it has not stopped him from running out or being nearly out of chakra.
    Nope, but I do think that you bring ridiculous arguments such as clone for a Rasengan as an instance which could be the reason for running out of chakra. Get fucking real already.

    Of course not, but making clones for the Rasengan certainly isn't the reason he ran of chakra. That's what I'm trying to say all along, which is also why I bring blindness/hatred/delusion in the posts. I hope that clears it for you.

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Chakra Control

    Naruto potentially running out of chakra from using a clone is not the issue here. At this point in the manga the idea does not make sense. Ever since naruto started working alongside kurama he has actually ran out of power a few times at least and it does not take kurama too long to replenish it. No one is arguing naruto is going to run out of power from using a clone to use rasengan, the point is that using a clone is one way or another an indication that naruto cannot actually use the technique otherwise. If naruto has to use a clone to use rasengan it is only to make up for the fact that he cannot do it with only one hand as several others have shown so far. Its not an issue of style, its a practical thing. Naruto can afford to work that way with clones because his chakra is virtually limitless however that does not mean his chakra control is on par with those who can use one handed rasengans.

    http://www.mangareader.net/93-97-13/...hapter-92.html
    http://www.mangareader.net/93-97-14/...hapter-92.html

    Jiraiya himself is responsible for how naruto is in this regard. Precise chakra control is not something naruto needs because he can throw chakra at his chakra control problems(which is precisely what he does when he uses a clone to make a rasengan or uses an extra hand from his chakra cloak to make rasengans). Naruto is like a rich person throwing money at problems until they go away. Naruto does not need and probably never will need precise chakra control. Since naruto has virtually limitless chakra and does not need precise chakra control he simply never learned it. What we see nowadays is the result of that, naruto is able to summon huge power but there is not even the slightest indication that he is any good for the things which require finesse. Odds are naruto's chakra control for the things which require subtlety is actually well below average even today. In turn naruto would be second to none when it comes to calling forth unfathomable power.

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  19. #179
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Exodi's Avatar
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    Re: Chakra Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    Nope, but I do think that you bring ridiculous arguments such as clone for a Rasengan as an instance which could be the reason for running out of chakra. Get fucking real already.

    Of course not, but making clones for the Rasengan certainly isn't the reason he ran of chakra. That's what I'm trying to say all along, which is also why I bring blindness/hatred/delusion in the posts. I hope that clears it for you.
    Whoa, nelly. Someone's got a spur stuck in their hindquarters.


    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Naruto potentially running out of chakra from using a clone is not the issue here. At this point in the manga the idea does not make sense. Ever since naruto started working alongside kurama he has actually ran out of power a few times at least and it does not take kurama too long to replenish it. No one is arguing naruto is going to run out of power from using a clone to use rasengan, the point is that using a clone is one way or another an indication that naruto cannot actually use the technique otherwise. If naruto has to use a clone to use rasengan it is only to make up for the fact that he cannot do it with only one hand as several others have shown so far. Its not an issue of style, its a practical thing. Naruto can afford to work that way with clones because his chakra is virtually limitless however that does not mean his chakra control is on par with those who can use one handed rasengans.

    http://www.mangareader.net/93-97-13/...hapter-92.html
    http://www.mangareader.net/93-97-14/...hapter-92.html

    Jiraiya himself is responsible for how naruto is in this regard. Precise chakra control is not something naruto needs because he can throw chakra at his chakra control problems. Naruto is like a rich person throwing money at problems until they go away. Naruto does not need and probably never will need precise chakra control. Since naruto has virtually limitless chakra and does not need precise chakra control he simply never learned it. What we see nowadays is the result of that, naruto is able to summon huge power but there is not even the slightest indication that he is any good for the things which require finesse. Odds are naruto's chakra control for the things which require subtlety is actually well below average even today. In turn naruto would be second to none when it comes to calling forth unfathomable power.
    Thanks for actually bringing things back to where they were originally.
    I pretty much agree with this.

    That bolded sentence. So, so true. Not that it's a bad thing.
    That's just how it is.

    The point I was making is that I would consider that wasteful behavior. That's just me.
    Call me a miser, I guess. A chakra-Scrooge.

    *shrug*

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    Re: Chakra Control

    It is without a doubt wasteful. I guess it would have been wasteful either way. Shinobi seem to have to train chakra control in regards as to how efficiently they use it and how much they can call forth. Most shinobi would ideally balance this two unless we are talking about extremes. A shinobi with limited stamina (sakura for instance) would have to focus on efficiency so as to use his limited chakra to 100% of its capacity. Shinobi with a lot of stamina are better of focusing on using up all of their power. The difference between the two is why tsunade or sakura seem to be well capable of exceeding raikage's strength even though they have mere human levels of strength while naruto or the raikage seem to need biju levels of chakra for an equally powerful punch (or even inferior).Naruto using a clone is wasteful not because there is a risk of running out of chakra, it is wasteful because it is a technique which could and should realistically be used with a significantly smaller amount of chakra.

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