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Thread: Chakra Control

  1. #316
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Naruto_Rasengan's Avatar
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    Re: Chakra Control

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    I can't agree. Sasuke's CS was different from Juugo's in that it had Orochimaru's chakra inside it, and the more you use it, the more your willpower is coroded until you become a mindless zombie for Orochimaru to control. Sasuke overcame this chakra as well which should technically make his feat even more impressive. Here we have Sasuke being compatible with Juugo's chakra, but the rules of manipulating chakra hasn't changed. Just like with Naruto giving chakra to other people, they still use the chakra themselves. He made it so that they could, but they still did it. He didn't form their techniques for them. They did that themselves.



    And Orochimaru states that he "made the chakra his own", why?



    The Susanoo adapts it? Whos' using the Susanoo, lol? That'd be like saying Naruto's Rasengan adapted Kurama's chakra back when he did his very first one-handed Rasengan, just because the chakra was coming from Kurama. That makes no sense at all.



    The only part of sage mode mastery Sasuke wouldn't be able to replicate is the part where you need to have a giant chakra reserve to get it in the first place. We know full well he can manipulate natural energy because he can manipulate Juugo's chakra which is laced with it. Sage Mode wouldn't be an asspull if Kishimoto simply said "Sasuke's gotten stronger as the years have passed, so now his body is strong enough to maintain the transformation, unlike it was about a year ago." Which is technically true, evidenced by all the power boosts his Susanoo has afforded him lately. Evidenced by the claim that he gets "a new power" from EMS. Evidenced by the fact that his chakra has just been increased three-fold by Naruto.

    Sasuke could turn into a full-blown sage next chapter and it'd all be legit.
    For starters Naruto is the one who molds his/Kurama's chakra to suit EVERYONE and manipulates it remotely, the Shinobi he gave his chakra too were not in any way able to control or manipulate the chakra protecting them.

    Juugo is the one controlling and manipulating the Senjutsu chakra here, not Sasuke. It is only able to happen because of Sasuke previously having the CS. Look closely at Sasuke, It is not passing through his body, only Susanoo. You can also see he and Juugo are still protected by Naruto's chakra.

    He could become a full blown Sennin? Hahahaha... ahhhh, good one.

  2. #317
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Chakra Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Naruto_Rasengan
    For starters Naruto is the one who molds his/Kurama's chakra to suit EVERYONE and manipulates it remotely, the Shinobi he gave his chakra too were not in any way able to control or manipulate the chakra protecting them.
    Not the shrouds, but the chakra that's inside of them that they use with their jutsu. Naruto isn't performing their jutsu for him no more than Juugo is performing Susanoo for Sasuke. You're like the 5th guy not to get that.

    Quote Quote:
    Juugo is the one controlling and manipulating the Senjutsu chakra here, not Sasuke. It is only able to happen because of Sasuke previously having the CS. Look closely at Sasuke, It is not passing through his body, only Susanoo. You can also see he and Juugo are still protected by Naruto's chakra.
    That's the exact opposite of what's happening. Juugo doesn't control natural energy; it enters his body automatically thanks to his genetics. He's simply giving his own chakra to Sasuke, and Sasuke's using it to power up his Susanoo because he already is capable of manipulating natural energy thanks to previously mastering the Curse Seal. That's what's happening.

    Quote Quote:
    He could become a full blown Sennin? Hahahaha... ahhhh, good one.
    Why wouldn't he? Kabuto became a full blown sage by taking Juugo's DNA. Sasuke has Juugo's DNA. Kabuto didn't need to absorb natural energy because Juugo's DNA did it for him. Sasuke has Juugo absorbing the natural energy for him. There's absolutely no logical reason he couldn't be a Sage anymore. The literal only partial argument you could make is that he doesn't have the body for it, which could very well be wrong now that he has become stronger with the acquisition of EMS.

    I seriously want to here your rebuttal against this. Honestly. Better yet, this would make an awesome new thread. I think I'll do that instead.

  3. #318
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Naruto_Rasengan's Avatar
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    Re: Chakra Control

    You are clearly the one who does not understand the concept, it is beyond pointless further debating anything with you.

    Go and re-read the chapters you are referring to, you are just spewing nonsense.

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  5. #319
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Chakra Control

    So what you're saying is, Naruto is using each person's ninjutsu THROUGH their bodies, thanks to having given them chakra shrouds? Because that's what you're implying.

    When Hinata used Hakkeshou, that was Naruto's doing? And when Kakashi used Kamui to teleport Bee in his full Bijuu Mode? And you somehow think I don't know what I'm reading?

  6. #320
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Naruto_Rasengan's Avatar
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    Re: Chakra Control

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    So what you're saying is, Naruto is using each person's ninjutsu THROUGH their bodies, thanks to having given them chakra shrouds? Because that's what you're implying.

    When Hinata used Hakkeshou, that was Naruto's doing? And when Kakashi used Kamui to teleport Bee in his full Bijuu Mode? And you somehow think I don't know what I'm reading?
    How do you interpret that from what was written? That's not at all what I am implying, this is why you are failing to understand the concept. Indeed I do.

    Naruto is manipulating the chakra shroud, not their chakra. They cannot manipulate or control the shroud in any way. Naruto is remotely manipulating it and matching the chakra to each individuals own, allowing them to use his chakra as if it were their's, as the link is always actively open. He is the one in control of the chakra shroud, not the person it is shrouding.

    In the case of Juugo and Sasuke, Juugo is providing the Senjutsu directly into Susanoo, not Sasuke, as you can see here and here Juugo is the one controlling and manipulating the Senjutsu, merging it with Sasuke's Susanoo.

  7. #321
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member someguy0830's Avatar
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    Re: Chakra Control

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    I can't agree. Sasuke's CS was different from Juugo's in that it had Orochimaru's chakra inside it, and the more you use it, the more your willpower is coroded until you become a mindless zombie for Orochimaru to control. Sasuke overcame this chakra as well which should technically make his feat even more impressive. Here we have Sasuke being compatible with Juugo's chakra, but the rules of manipulating chakra hasn't changed. Just like with Naruto giving chakra to other people, they still use the chakra themselves. He made it so that they could, but they still did it. He didn't form their techniques for them. They did that themselves.
    It's a simple matter of fact that all the Cursed Seals were based on Juugo's ability. Orochimaru says as much in this chapter. That Orochimaru's chakra is in the seal is irrelevant to the issue of senjutsu (though I will grant you that being able to keep Orochimaru in check is a feat).

    Since you bring up what Naruto's did, this only reinforces the fact that Sasuke doesn't have to contribute anything. Each time Naruto gives chakra to someone, he adapts it to their chakra. They don't have to do any work. They just get a lot more chakra that comes pre-adapted. Yes, they can use the chakra once they have it, but it doesn't take any tricky balancing act. The characters themselves are clearly surprised by just how powerful they are. Same thing with Juugo. Sasuke has long-since been adapted to Juugo's chakra, even if he no longer has the seal. It takes no effort on his part. It's Orochimaru that made the two able to share chakra like this, and I guarantee you Sasuke could not do this were that not the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    And Orochimaru states that he "made the chakra his own", why?
    See above. Juugo gave Sasuke a bunch of flesh a while ago and Sasuke made that his own. Doesn't mean Sasuke had to put any effort into it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    The Susanoo adapts it? Whos' using the Susanoo, lol? That'd be like saying Naruto's Rasengan adapted Kurama's chakra back when he did his very first one-handed Rasengan, just because the chakra was coming from Kurama. That makes no sense at all.
    That's literally what they say in the chapter. In any case, The chakra's already out there, and Juugo is pouring his chakra into that. The two mix because they're already compatible. Or are you really going to claim Sasuke deliberately created that intricate Cursed Seal pattern?

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    The only part of sage mode mastery Sasuke wouldn't be able to replicate is the part where you need to have a giant chakra reserve to get it in the first place. We know full well he can manipulate natural energy because he can manipulate Juugo's chakra which is laced with it. Sage Mode wouldn't be an asspull if Kishimoto simply said "Sasuke's gotten stronger as the years have passed, so now his body is strong enough to maintain the transformation, unlike it was about a year ago." Which is technically true, evidenced by all the power boosts his Susanoo has afforded him lately. Evidenced by the claim that he gets "a new power" from EMS. Evidenced by the fact that his chakra has just been increased three-fold by Naruto.
    If Sasuke actually tried to draw in natural energy the proper way, he'd die. Sasuke cannot manipulate natural energy in anywhere near the same way Naruto can. He can only absorb it through Juugo's chakra because Orochimaru gave him that Cursed Seal. Sage Mode would still be an asspull because Sasuke was using Juugo-style natural energy all the way back in part 1, and he didn't even know what it was at the time. It isn't the same thing, just a corrupted shortcut that isn't anywhere near as potent as the real one.

    All glory to the Hypnotoad!

    It is ridiculous to think that video games influence children. If Pac-Man affected kids born in the eighties, we should have a generation of teenagers who run around in darkened rooms and eat pills while listening to monotonous music.

  8. #322
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Chakra Control

    Quote Originally Posted by someguy0830
    It's a simple matter of fact that all the Cursed Seals were based on Juugo's ability. Orochimaru says as much in this chapter. That Orochimaru's chakra is in the seal is irrelevant to the issue of senjutsu (though I will grant you that being able to keep Orochimaru in check is a feat).
    All of them are based on Juugo's ability, yes, but they aren't equal to Juugo's ability as there's a finite amount of power they can achieve, aswell as the fact that it takes chakra away from them in order to activate it. If we're relying on what the CS did for everyone then Sasuke would not be able to manipulate the natural energy to the level that he's doing right now because of the extra chakra drain ontop of using Susanoo.

    Quote Quote:
    Since you bring up what Naruto's did, this only reinforces the fact that Sasuke doesn't have to contribute anything. Each time Naruto gives chakra to someone, he adapts it to their chakra. They don't have to do any work. They just get a lot more chakra that comes pre-adapted. Yes, they can use the chakra once they have it, but it doesn't take any tricky balancing act. The characters themselves are clearly surprised by just how powerful they are. Same thing with Juugo. Sasuke has long-since been adapted to Juugo's chakra, even if he no longer has the seal. It takes no effort on his part. It's Orochimaru that made the two able to share chakra like this, and I guarantee you Sasuke could not do this were that not the case.
    There is a distinct difference.

    Orochimaru didn't say that he injected Juugo's chakra into Sasuke's body, and then he molded it for him in such a way that he was capable of using it. Naruto did this for the alliance. The only thing Orochimaru did was put Juugo's chakra inside of Sasuke, and then Sasuke took over from there. You seem to think that there was some automatic reconfiguring of natural energy inside of Sasuke, but this disagrees with Orochimaru claiming Sasuke himself made the chakra his own. Sasuke was compatible with Juugo's flesh thanks to mastering the CS, but that was not automatic either. It took him 2 1/2 years to do it. Well, not that long most likely, but you get what I'm saying.

    Quote Quote:
    See above. Juugo gave Sasuke a bunch of flesh a while ago and Sasuke made that his own. Doesn't mean Sasuke had to put any effort into it.
    The effort was put forth years ago when he mastered the CS. Had it not been for the feats achieved in CS mastery Juugo could not have done that.

    Quote Quote:
    That's literally what they say in the chapter. In any case, The chakra's already out there, and Juugo is pouring his chakra into that. The two mix because they're already compatible. Or are you really going to claim Sasuke deliberately created that intricate Cursed Seal pattern?
    I'm going to say that Sasuke's body is creating that intricate Cursed Seal pattern. Juugo's pouring his chakra into the Susanoo. The Susanoo is an extension of Sasuke's body, so Juugo's chakra is mixing with his (Sasuke's) own. If it was just Juugo injecting his chakra into the Susanoo alone, then it should have the same "blocky" designs along it that Juugo's transformation does, instead of the "tengu" looking form that Sasuke has when the CS of Heaven is used (flames rather than blocks). There's a distinct difference. For example, Naruto's Sage Mode is distinctly a Toad Sage Mode because of the eyes.
    The only thing giving me any pause in this assumption is the fact that Sasuke's body hasn't gone through the same transformation as his Susanoo.
    Yes they're compatible. But they became compatible through Sasuke's work.

    Quote Quote:
    If Sasuke actually tried to draw in natural energy the proper way, he'd die.
    If he can't sense natural energy as you say, absolutely nothing would happen. But since he can manipulate natural energy in the form of the CS, I've no reason to believe he can't manipulate in the form of Sage Mode. Even more fortunately for me, you can't prove otherwise.

    Quote Quote:
    Sasuke cannot manipulate natural energy in anywhere near the same way Naruto can. He can only absorb it through Juugo's chakra because Orochimaru gave him that Cursed Seal. Sage Mode would still be an asspull because Sasuke was using Juugo-style natural energy all the way back in part 1, and he didn't even know what it was at the time. It isn't the same thing, just a corrupted shortcut that isn't anywhere near as potent as the real one.
    I'd say Kabuto's Sage Mode was a corrupted shortcut that's far more potent than the "real" one you're talking about, since the absorbtion of natural energy is automatic. And Sasuke's Sage Mode would be similar in it's aquisition (relying on Juugo's DNA to absorb the natural energy, and relying on his own skill with manipulating natural energy to balance it out).

    Nope. Nothing asspully about any of that, since a character's already successfully done so.

  9. #323
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member someguy0830's Avatar
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    Re: Chakra Control

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    All of them are based on Juugo's ability, yes, but they aren't equal to Juugo's ability as there's a finite amount of power they can achieve, aswell as the fact that it takes chakra away from them in order to activate it. If we're relying on what the CS did for everyone then Sasuke would not be able to manipulate the natural energy to the level that he's doing right now because of the extra chakra drain ontop of using Susanoo.
    It takes chakra away, but you get a net gain overall. Otherwise what's the point if your chakra just goes down? You're also missing one vital thing here: Sasuke isn't doing anything. Juugo's the one providing the chakra. Sasuke doesn't have to provide anything, just have Juugo give up some chakra.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    Orochimaru didn't say that he injected Juugo's chakra into Sasuke's body, and then he molded it for him in such a way that he was capable of using it. Naruto did this for the alliance. The only thing Orochimaru did was put Juugo's chakra inside of Sasuke, and then Sasuke took over from there. You seem to think that there was some automatic reconfiguring of natural energy inside of Sasuke, but this disagrees with Orochimaru claiming Sasuke himself made the chakra his own. Sasuke was compatible with Juugo's flesh thanks to mastering the CS, but that was not automatic either. It took him 2 1/2 years to do it. Well, not that long most likely, but you get what I'm saying.
    Except for that special box he had to take a nap in to keep from dying. Sasuke didn't just up and conquer the seal, he had to go through a drawn out process to make sure it wouldn't kill him, then he mastered using the seal once it was fully integrated. Without that first bit, the seal would have just killed Sasuke. Sasuke's years of training were controlling the seal. The seal is still the thing gathering the energy.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    The effort was put forth years ago when he mastered the CS. Had it not been for the feats achieved in CS mastery Juugo could not have done that.
    See the box thing above. Even if Sasuke wasn't as good at using the seal, the compatibility work done for him would be enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    I'm going to say that Sasuke's body is creating that intricate Cursed Seal pattern. Juugo's pouring his chakra into the Susanoo. The Susanoo is an extension of Sasuke's body, so Juugo's chakra is mixing with his (Sasuke's) own. If it was just Juugo injecting his chakra into the Susanoo alone, then it should have the same "blocky" designs along it that Juugo's transformation does, instead of the "tengu" looking form that Sasuke has when the CS of Heaven is used (flames rather than blocks). There's a distinct difference. For example, Naruto's Sage Mode is distinctly a Toad Sage Mode because of the eyes.
    The only thing giving me any pause in this assumption is the fact that Sasuke's body hasn't gone through the same transformation as his Susanoo.
    Yes they're compatible. But they became compatible through Sasuke's work.
    If Sasuke's body is doing it, then the process isn't by his will but by muscle memory, for lack of a better way to describe it. Sasuke isn't manipulating the energy. They're compatible, they mix, and since Sasuke's got the bigger chakra in this equation, his seal pattern is what comes up.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    If he can't sense natural energy as you say, absolutely nothing would happen. But since he can manipulate natural energy in the form of the CS, I've no reason to believe he can't manipulate in the form of Sage Mode. Even more fortunately for me, you can't prove otherwise.
    That of course assumed someone would teach him how to sense it first. And as I've pointed out before, Sasuke isn't manipulating natural energy. The seal does that. Sasuke gets the finished product.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    I'd say Kabuto's Sage Mode was a corrupted shortcut that's far more potent than the "real" one you're talking about, since the absorbtion of natural energy is automatic. And Sasuke's Sage Mode would be similar in it's aquisition (relying on Juugo's DNA to absorb the natural energy, and relying on his own skill with manipulating natural energy to balance it out).

    Nope. Nothing asspully about any of that, since a character's already successfully done so.
    Kabuto had the benefit of actually knowing Sage Mode and the time to experiment with Juugo's cells. Sasuke does not know how to mix the two.

    I'll put it this way. It is possible, indeed probable, that Sasuke could somehow gain a new cursed seal that would let him gather natural energy the same way Juugo does. But Sage Mode? No way.

    All glory to the Hypnotoad!

    It is ridiculous to think that video games influence children. If Pac-Man affected kids born in the eighties, we should have a generation of teenagers who run around in darkened rooms and eat pills while listening to monotonous music.

  10. #324
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Chakra Control

    I was supposed to be asleep an hour and 30 minutes ago, so I'm gonna re-address this later tonight. Just remember that you can't attribute feats to an ability that Sasuke doesn't have.

    His seal isn't doing anything, because it's sitting inside of Itachi's gourd.

  11. #325
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Chakra Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    He SUCKED, yes, PAST TENSE. You seriously think he has the same chakra control as he did back in Part 1? Are you fucking kidding me? After he mastered the Sage Mode? It's his mojo, as well as manga's continuous display of it being efficient. He failed to master it this way but he still learned it. And guess what? It fucking WORKS, SHIT!/
    He has better chakra control, but mastering the Sage Mode does not imply his chakra control has improved so much considering he needed two clones for two rasengan when he took out Pain's summons while moving. Considering that even when he was moving, he was able to gather natural energy though he failed to balance it, he should be able to use rasengan without moving.

    It's his mojo at all, it's not because Naruto likes this style of making rasengan. He uses clone to make rasengan because he can't or couldn't do it with one hand, and using two hands makes it far too obvious and harder to hit. Naruto using clones in fights is his mojo, but clone for rasengan isn't.



    Quote Quote:
    A gift, a talent, being born with something, same fucking thing. Is Kakashi's Sharingan also a Genie that helps him during battles?
    Nope, Kakashi's Sharingan is mastered by Kakashi which can hamper him in battles due to it draining chakra. Talent isn't the same as a gift or being born with something. Large chakra pool isn't talent...

    Quote Quote:
    I don't give a shit. I just correct people and hold a balance between what manga tells us and people's opinions and scenarios in their heads. It just so happens that Naruto conststantly gets shit on and has a few people to defend him with actual arguments.
    Naruto also gets constantly praised to the moon. Hell, JIraiya and Minato are the only ones who get even more praise than Naruto does.

    Quote Quote:
    People are delusional when they don't see the clarity of manga's display of a certain aspect.
    Sure.


    Quote Quote:
    He only managed to execute it during the training once or twice as Yamato mentioned. That's why I said "practically" in mid-battle.

    But you turn a blind eye to actual story.
    He still didn't perfect it, otherwise he wouldn't have needed to try and hit Kakuzu as soon as possible before the FRS broke apart again.

    I do not, just because I don't blindly praise Naruto.

    Quote Quote:
    Oh no?
    1. Rasengan at the age of 12
    2. Perfect Sage Mode
    3. FRS
    4. Controlling Kurama's chakra, distribute it across the whole Alliance and convert it to each and every fodder shinobi there is
    Konohamaru can use rasengan, and from the flashbacks, he wasn't even 12 yet when he was able to use it.

    Yet Naruto needed a clone for rasengan when he was moving and two clones for FRS.

    Using FRS with Sage Mode is a better feat.

    Pretty sure Naruto isn't the only shinobi who could potentially do this, but okay.

    Quote Quote:
    Oh, and he is being compared to Hashirama.
    Yeah, those are ordinary feats.

    The fact that he's an Uzumaki/Senju descendant means everything. Specially because of Kurama and his large chakra pool.
    Weren't his ability to use Sage mode and his personality being compared to Hashirama?

    No it doesn't. Being an Uzumaki wouldn't have made Naruto win his fights or resist the Kyuubi's malicious chakra. It was Naruto who won his fights by refusing to give up and continuing to think of a way to win. Unless there's proof that Kishi planned the whole Uzumaki thing from the beginning, it's all Naruto's feat, not because of this whole Uzumaki/Senji heritage. You could argue that his being Uzumaki allowed him to withstand Kyuubi's chakra or whatever Yamato was thinking of after he put Naruto back to normal after he went Kyuubi berserk, though.

  12. #326
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Chakra Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    There is no next step because he mastered it already. Just not like Minato or Jiraiya. Mastering something means getting a certain effect, not using the same means of getting the same effect. No fashion statement, and him using clones for the Rasengan actually is his signature move.

    Why are you all still ranting about him conserving energy if he didn't use any clones for Rasengan? For common sense's sake, 10 clones during a battle for a Rasengan can NEVER wear him out. Remember the 1000 clones, for the tenth time. Also, you always refer to his clone as something that isn't him. The clones are him because he controls them and his mind is in them. Therefore, they're just extra hands.
    Your definition of mastering is extremely convenient to your point (and I disagree with it, I would argue mastering implies every plausible aspect of the technique including the process). True, with the help of his clones naruto can make perfect rasengans. However my point is not about the rasengans themselves but rather the process of making them. Naruto's process so far is making a clone and then have it use its two hands to make a rasengan. If naruto trains there is no reason for the entire process to not be just "make a rasengan". You are making it sounds as if naruto using his clones to make rasengans was a choice, an stylistic choice at that. There is no reason for us to think that is the case in any form or context. Naruto uses clones because he does not have a choice in the matter, he couldn't make a one handed rasengan if his life depended on it. To even suggest the clones were a choice and fashion statement from naruto's part in regards to making rasengans we would first need to know that one handed rasengans were possible but he still chose to use clones anyways. I guess it is a perspective thing. In my eyes a shorter process will invariably be superior to a longer one. Naruto's first usage of clones to make a rasengan was not even a stylistic choice, he literally couldn't even do a two handed rasengan when his life depended on it. Naruto simply never really improved his standard rasengan from then.

    You missed me in this part. In here I made a distinction between normal naruto using ordinary ninja chakra and sage mode naruto. With normal naruto you are correct and I made the same point earlier, clones won't tire him out. With sage mode things are dramatically different. Naruto's stamina won't run out per say however any given time he enters sage mode he has a limited amount of sage chakra to work with. His normal chakra is something he can recklessly throw at problems until he goes away. With sage chakra he only has a limited amount of clones, rasengans and whatever other jutsu he has until he has to either call a clone or sit down and gather natural energy. While naruto does not have to save ninja chakra, its a basic form of common sense to be as efficient as possible when using his limited sage chakra. In this situation the issue is that the most efficient way for naruto to use his odama rasengans in sage mode is with the help of clones. Its not a in any form or context a choice, its just the only way he can make them.

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    Re: Chakra Control

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    He has better chakra control, but mastering the Sage Mode does not imply his chakra control has improved so much considering he needed two clones for two rasengan when he took out Pain's summons while moving. Considering that even when he was moving, he was able to gather natural energy though he failed to balance it, he should be able to use rasengan without moving.

    It's his mojo at all, it's not because Naruto likes this style of making rasengan. He uses clone to make rasengan because he can't or couldn't do it with one hand, and using two hands makes it far too obvious and harder to hit. Naruto using clones in fights is his mojo, but clone for rasengan isn't.




    Nope, Kakashi's Sharingan is mastered by Kakashi which can hamper him in battles due to it draining chakra. Talent isn't the same as a gift or being born with something. Large chakra pool isn't talent...


    Naruto also gets constantly praised to the moon. Hell, JIraiya and Minato are the only ones who get even more praise than Naruto does.


    Sure.



    He still didn't perfect it, otherwise he wouldn't have needed to try and hit Kakuzu as soon as possible before the FRS broke apart again.

    I do not, just because I don't blindly praise Naruto.


    Konohamaru can use rasengan, and from the flashbacks, he wasn't even 12 yet when he was able to use it.

    Yet Naruto needed a clone for rasengan when he was moving and two clones for FRS.

    Using FRS with Sage Mode is a better feat.

    Pretty sure Naruto isn't the only shinobi who could potentially do this, but okay.



    Weren't his ability to use Sage mode and his personality being compared to Hashirama?

    No it doesn't. Being an Uzumaki wouldn't have made Naruto win his fights or resist the Kyuubi's malicious chakra. It was Naruto who won his fights by refusing to give up and continuing to think of a way to win. Unless there's proof that Kishi planned the whole Uzumaki thing from the beginning, it's all Naruto's feat, not because of this whole Uzumaki/Senji heritage. You could argue that his being Uzumaki allowed him to withstand Kyuubi's chakra or whatever Yamato was thinking of after he put Naruto back to normal after he went Kyuubi berserk, though.
    Something which is impossible to master and it includes chakra control doesn't imply that his chakra control has improved? I'm speechless, literally.

    It's not obvious at all, since the manga doesn't show it's obvious. Read the fucking manga with your eyes opened.

    And learning how to use Kurama's chakra isn't the same?

    He doesn't get praised at all. Posters with grammar knowledge of a 5-year old posting "NARUTOROCKZZZPWNALL" isn't praising, that's just trolling. I can name 2-3 posters who actually defend Naruto with actual arguments while the rest of you shit on him constantly without any basis.

    He perfected it since it obviously works, duh.

    You do, because if you weren't, you'd know that I'm not praising Naruto AT ALL. I'm just defending the feats he accomplished which you constantly shit on without any fucking proof.

    Can someone else use Rasengan other than Konohamaru and Naruto? No, they can't.

    He will always need a clone because that's his way of fighting.

    You think there's someone else who could do this? I'm in awe. First of all, you're reading a SHOUNEN manga which implies that there will always be a hero who stands out more than anyone else and has abilities that are unique only to him. Second of all, if I ignore the deeper aspect of the actual fucking genre you're reading, NO ONE accomplished what Naruto did, Kurama himself said that he SURPASSED his parents, one being a 4th Hokage and the other an Uzumaki who contained Kurama as well.

    Lol. You really can't read between the lines. You need everything to be fucking spelled out for you. You think that he was just comparing his attitude with Hashirama's? I can't believe you could be so clueless.

    Because he's an Uzumaki, he has a large chakra pool and could contain the Kyuubi, not to mention control him. All I need in this statement.

    ---------- Post added at 08:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:01 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Your definition of mastering is extremely convenient to your point (and I disagree with it, I would argue mastering implies every plausible aspect of the technique including the process). True, with the help of his clones naruto can make perfect rasengans. However my point is not about the rasengans themselves but rather the process of making them. Naruto's process so far is making a clone and then have it use its two hands to make a rasengan. If naruto trains there is no reason for the entire process to not be just "make a rasengan". You are making it sounds as if naruto using his clones to make rasengans was a choice, an stylistic choice at that. There is no reason for us to think that is the case in any form or context. Naruto uses clones because he does not have a choice in the matter, he couldn't make a one handed rasengan if his life depended on it. To even suggest the clones were a choice and fashion statement from naruto's part in regards to making rasengans we would first need to know that one handed rasengans were possible but he still chose to use clones anyways. I guess it is a perspective thing. In my eyes a shorter process will invariably be superior to a longer one. Naruto's first usage of clones to make a rasengan was not even a stylistic choice, he literally couldn't even do a two handed rasengan when his life depended on it. Naruto simply never really improved his standard rasengan from then.

    You missed me in this part. In here I made a distinction between normal naruto using ordinary ninja chakra and sage mode naruto. With normal naruto you are correct and I made the same point earlier, clones won't tire him out. With sage mode things are dramatically different. Naruto's stamina won't run out per say however any given time he enters sage mode he has a limited amount of sage chakra to work with. His normal chakra is something he can recklessly throw at problems until he goes away. With sage chakra he only has a limited amount of clones, rasengans and whatever other jutsu he has until he has to either call a clone or sit down and gather natural energy. While naruto does not have to save ninja chakra, its a basic form of common sense to be as efficient as possible when using his limited sage chakra. In this situation the issue is that the most efficient way for naruto to use his odama rasengans in sage mode is with the help of clones. Its not a in any form or context a choice, its just the only way he can make them.
    If there are different ways to pass an exam and my friend used one method to pass it, his way isn't automatically the only way to accomplish it since I used another way and got the same result. I think you get the picture. It seems now you missed me because I never said that Naruto used clones as a choice. He didn't. He used it because he couldn't learn the Rasengan the old fashion way. But his way doesn't decrease his Rasengan's efficiency according to manga. You all preach about practicality and how he would have more chakra and would be better in battles but you you don't have any actual proof of that because it's non-existent. Manga never implied that Minato's or Jiraiya's way is better or showed us that Naruto's having difficulties with his way of doing a Rasengan. If his chakra control rose to the point where he could master Sage Mode, I don't think the issue would be the same with an ordinary Rasengan in base mode. Kishi just doesn't want to change his signature move. And why would he when he doesn't have any difficulties in battles you all speak of?

    I understand the thing you said about the Sage Mode, but I still can't grasp that making clones would tire him out in Sage Mode.
    Last edited by Roman; September 27, 2013 at 01:21 PM.

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    Re: Chakra Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    If there are different ways to pass an exam and my friend used one method to pass it, his way isn't automatically the only way to accomplish it since I used another way and got the same result. I think you get the picture. It seems now you missed me because I never said that Naruto used clones as a choice. He didn't. He used it because he couldn't learn the Rasengan the old fashion way. But his way doesn't decrease his Rasengan's efficiency according to manga. You all preach about practicality and how he would have more chakra and would be better in battles but you you don't have any actual proof of that because it's non-existent. Manga never implied that Minato's or Jiraiya's way is better or showed us that Naruto's having difficulties with his way of doing a Rasengan. If his chakra control rose to the point where he could master Sage Mode, I don't think the issue would be the same with an ordinary Rasengan in base mode. Kishi just doesn't want to change his signature move. And why would he when he doesn't have any difficulties in battles you all speak of?

    I understand the thing you said about the Sage Mode, but I still can't grasp that making clones would tire him out in Sage Mode.
    A problem could be solved in different ways however that would not really change that a given process would be better than another. In this case, who has the objectively better method of making a rasengan? Jiraiya, kakashi or minato who can make them instantly on the spot or naruto who has to make a clone to provide two extra hands for it? And this isn't an exam, this is a real world thing for naruto. In an exam the only thing that counts is passing it. In the real world your job will invariably require you to be as efficient as possible on all angles. In the real world it makes a significant difference if you solve a problem using 10 steps and 10000 dollars or if you solve the same problem in one step using 100 dollars.

    And why do we need to prove naruto's approach and inability to make one handed rasengans is less practical? Thats nonsense, mere math does the job here. It is true naruto has adapted his fighting style and plans to accommodate for his inability to make one handed rasengans however that does not mean naruto's way of doing things is as good as others. To put it in perspective, every strategy or plan naruto has ever come up with so far that involved rasengan could have at least required 1 less clone to execute. Did naruto fail because of the clones? Well, no, he hasn't but that is besides the point. Naruto accommodating to make up for rasengan does not change that not having to accommodate for it would be objectively better. Can you imagine minato having to use a clone to make a rasengan? Even if he hiraishined a clone to help him make the rasengan that defeated tobi it would have still made the whole thing more complicated.

    I didn't say the clones would tire him.
    Last edited by kkck; September 27, 2013 at 02:15 PM.

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    Re: Chakra Control

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    A problem could be solved in different ways however that would not really change that a given process would be better than another. In this case, who has the objectively better method of making a rasengan? Jiraiya, kakashi or minato who can make them instantly on the spot or naruto who has to make a clone to provide two extra hands for it?

    And why do we need to prove naruto's approach and inability to make one handed rasengans is less practical? Thats nonsense, mere math does the job here. It is true naruto has adapted his fighting style and plans to accommodate for his inability to make one handed rasengans however that does not mean naruto's way of doing things is as good as others. To put it in perspective, every strategy or plan naruto has ever come up with so far that involved rasengan could have at least required 1 less clone to execute. Did naruto fail because of the clones? Well, no, he hasn't but that is besides the point. Naruto accommodating to make up for rasengan does not change that not having to accommodate for it would be objectively better. Can you imagine minato having to use a clone to make a rasengan? Even if he hiraishined a clone to help him make the rasengan that defeated tobi it would have still made the whole thing more complicated.
    Objectively, a one-handed Rasengan is the better choice as I've said countless times, but there's always a "but".

    The practicality can be questioned in general. Just because a one-handed Rasengan seems more practical, it doesn't mean it's flawless. In Itachi's words, every jutsu has a weakness and by that logic, it doesn't matter which way is used to execute a technique because there's gonna be a time when the technique will fail, regardless of which execution method is used. While objectively speaking, a one-handed could be better and more practical, Naruto's perfection in using clones can't decrease its efficiency because he does it on a second's basis, which is constantly shown by the manga. If I were to get into specific details, the difference between the two executions is Naruto's seal for a KB which lasts, let's not kid ourselves, half a second, if that. So yeah, if we get into such technicalities, objectively, a one-handed is a sure better choice. But a half-second (could be even less) margin ain't gonna cut it to the point where his execution could be downplayed on this scale.

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    Re: Chakra Control

    @M3J I thought naruto created clones because, he needed one as a distraction. there are plenty times that naruto has used one hand to create rasengan, so basing chakra controll on that alone is not acceptable. right now naruto is on top of chakra control. sasuke said it, kuruma said it, the 2nd hokage said it, the 1st hokage says it. Idk how much evidence you need to see that he mastered it.

    stop deluding yourself, if naruto did not have chakra control how would he got the ratio right to add in wind element to his FRS. or maybe you don't know what chakra control is.

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