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Thread: Nimaiya's Basis for Asauchi & Zanpakutou Manifestation

  1. #1
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Lee.J.Baxter's Avatar
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    Nimaiya's Basis for Asauchi & Zanpakutou Manifestation

    Recently it's been stated that Nimaiya invented the Asauchi, which is used by Shinigami to manifest their Zanpakutou. So the question is, how exactly did Nimiaya come up with its construction? I'll also explain my theory on how this relates to Hollow Zanpakutou! The first thing I'll look at is the basis, the Arrancar, which is where I believe Nimiaya started when he sought to create the Asauchi; I believe this because Arrancars can manifest Zanpakutou naturally, so it may be that Nimiaya sought to mimic this ability in Shinigami...

    There are 2 things required for a Hollow to become a full Arrancar (we're not talking about lower-level Hollows ripping off their masks, which have already been stated to be useless); a significant level of spirit energy, and a separation of that excess energy from the body to produce a Zanpakutou. The former is achieved when a Hollow becomes a Menos; essentially, the Hollow grows stronger by incorporating extra raw materials and energy (from corpses of its own kind) into its body. The latter is achieved when the resulting Menos breaks its mask, and the excess mass/energy is used to form the Zanpakutou. One important thing to note is that when a Menos is formed, the core abilities of the original Hollow are 'imprinted' into the rest of its mass (i.e. the other Hollows and their abilities are lost).

    Now, before I go on, we've seen something very early on in Bleach that's essentially the Hollow version of the Asauchi, which we've come to know as the Gillian. They all look the same because none of the Hollows comprising its form have become dominant...its essentially a 'template' Hollow, composed of thousands upon thousands of dead Hollows!!! Add a dominant Hollow into the mix and that template starts to adopt the traits of the dominant Hollow...sound familiar? Here's another hint; the Gillian Menos are coated in black...hmmm, these Gillian are sounding more and more like Asauchi, or the White Hollow aren't they???

    So, how does this work with Shinigami then? Well, there's one major hurdle straight away...Shinigami don't tend to enter an interdevouring orgy to form one powerful Super-Shinigami (plus it probably wouldn't work if they did anyways)!!! Nimiaya's solution was to create a sort of Shinigami version of a Gillian through artificial methods (how he did this is unknown at this current time), by combining thousands of dead Shinigami together; what you end up with is a mass of raw Shinigami materials and energy, or a 'template' Shinigami...enter the Asauchi!!!

    What happens after this is slightly different from the Hollows, due to the fact that the Asauchi is separate from the Shinigami, but the principle is the same; think of the Shinigami as being the same as the dominant Hollow, which imprints its abilities into the template, thus making it adopt its traits. Once this happens, the Shinigami has gained a Zanpakutou!!! Furthermore, the Shinigami doesn't need to tear off a part of themselves to form the Zanpakutou, as the Asauchi is already separate from them!!!

    So there you have it!!!
    Last edited by Lee.J.Baxter; September 09, 2013 at 09:47 AM.
    Predictions
    • Just as Quincies are evolved beings born from Humans, Shinigami are evolved beings born from Hollows.
    • Once Yhwach dies, Ichigo's Quincy powers will disappear and his soul will become unstable, causing the onset of Soul Suicide.
    • Yhwach isn't going to be the final antagonist.

  2. #2
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member devstauk's Avatar
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    Re: Nimaiya's Basis for Asauchi & Zanpakutou Manifestation

    I always thought Nimaiya was just a normal blacksmith that served or help the shinigami fight the quincy. Then once he got Sk'd his way of creating swords was what it is today, essentially.
    Spoiler show

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KungPaoChicken's Avatar
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    Re: Nimaiya's Basis for Asauchi & Zanpakutou Manifestation

    I always thought that Shinigami before they hand zanpaktos, purified souls by pokeing them on the head with there energy infused in there fingers. But thats a different story.

    Anyways he probably expermentated with Shutara and she found out a starting point for how hollows manifest their powers. Then shutara and Nimaiya built artifical soul swords that have the potential to become anything, but become based on what the owner is in side.

  4. #4
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Nimaiya's Basis for Asauchi & Zanpakutou Manifestation

    Well, based on what we have seen a zampakuto in itself is not a product of the asauchi. The asauchi might help in the forming of a zampakuto however the spirit themselves are an inherent part of shinigami that exists within its soul. The asauchi merely draws it out and helps manifest it into the real world so to speak. I think that nimaiya merely saw a problem and thought of a way to solve it basically. Zampakuto existed within shinigami but shinigami did not on their own have the innate ability to draw out their full power. Nimaiya seeing this would have thought a link between shinigami and their power was needed. Years of research would have concluded in asauchi, a concentration of shinigami souls in order to bring out a shinigami's soul.

    Another thing which seems relevant is the sword five. They have names, they are without a doubt nimaiya's zampakuto. If shinigami had some other way to fight before asauchi then it means they also served him in some primitive way before asauchi were around. Which means in the past nimaiya was the only one with the actual ability to forge zampakuto. Well, its not that nimaiya had the innate ability to make zampakuto but rather the scenario would be that he was the only one with innate abilities that could be applied in such a way.

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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member druzod's Avatar
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    Re: Nimaiya's Basis for Asauchi & Zanpakutou Manifestation

    Since Nimaiya is the creator of zanpakutos , it is likely that is bankai cannot be stolen because he understands like Ichigo understood that a zanpakuto isn't a tool it is yourself, that's why zangetsu looks like Ichigo and cannot be stolen, it is himself Ichigo.
    Release the World Engine!

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Nimaiya's Basis for Asauchi & Zanpakutou Manifestation

    I would argue all shinigami already understand that particular part about the zampakuto. In fact, I am pretty sure that is what nimaiya meant when he said this.
    http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/523/10
    And the answer is this.
    http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/542/15

    Other shinigami are not like ichigo, they do not develop their swords overnight. Renji passed because he was already past this point. Ichigo just barely begun to understand it.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member NoOneInParticular's Avatar
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    Re: Nimaiya's Basis for Asauchi & Zanpakutou Manifestation

    Well, I wonder about Arrancar Zanpakutos. From what we've seen, which isn't very much, natural Arrancar didn't have Zanpakutos. It was Aizen that advanced them to the level of "complete" Arrancar. We saw Baraggan as a pre-Hogyoku Arrancar, and he had his axe, but that didn't seem to be a real Zanpakuto with any power sealed within. Harribel in that filler, Ulquiorra in that databook, Grand Fisher in that one panel after Ichigo beat him, and then Starrk and Lilynette in their flashback were all independently evolved Arrancar, and none of them had Zanpakutos as we know them.

    Given what we know about the Hogyoku and how it works, it raises questions about the actual form of an Arrancar. The Hogyoku was responding to Aizen's influence as he fused with it when transforming Hollows, so I wonder just how natural the form they took actually is. Aizen followed the theory that the path to greater power lay in breaking the barrier between Hollow and Shinigami (which is interesting since according to Urahara, Quincy is the opposite of Shinigami and Human the opposite of Hollow), so that was the development he set his mind on. I think the Hogyoku was simply doing what Aizen wanted and transforming Hollows according to his desires. What they became might not even be the true form of Arrancar at all. Furthermore, you've got Yhwach taking Aizen's Arrancar and somehow turning them into some other variant that uses Quincy Crosses instead of Zanpakuto. It seems to me that it's only through external intervention that Arrancar have become what they have.

    So it could be that Arrancar Zanpakutos are a simulation of Shinigami Zans as per Aizen's will, rather than the other way around.

    But it is definitely a mystery what led Nimaiya to his breakthrough. He said something about it being similar to the creation of White, who was made using a dead Shinigami's soul. It might just be that some Shinigami were manifesting their inner spirit in some other way, like Hitsugaya. He was having visions and turning the air around himself cold before he joined the Shinigami Academy. If enough other people went through the same thing, it makes sense that someone would start looking for ways to control and utilise the phenomenon.

  8. #8
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Lee.J.Baxter's Avatar
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    Re: Nimaiya's Basis for Asauchi & Zanpakutou Manifestation

    Quote Originally Posted by NoOneInParticular View Post
    Well, I wonder about Arrancar Zanpakutos. From what we've seen, which isn't very much, natural Arrancar didn't have Zanpakutos. It was Aizen that advanced them to the level of "complete" Arrancar. We saw Baraggan as a pre-Hogyoku Arrancar, and he had his axe, but that didn't seem to be a real Zanpakuto with any power sealed within. Harribel in that filler, Ulquiorra in that databook, Grand Fisher in that one panel after Ichigo beat him, and then Starrk and Lilynette in their flashback were all independently evolved Arrancar, and none of them had Zanpakutos as we know them.

    Given what we know about the Hogyoku and how it works, it raises questions about the actual form of an Arrancar. The Hogyoku was responding to Aizen's influence as he fused with it when transforming Hollows, so I wonder just how natural the form they took actually is. Aizen followed the theory that the path to greater power lay in breaking the barrier between Hollow and Shinigami (which is interesting since according to Urahara, Quincy is the opposite of Shinigami and Human the opposite of Hollow), so that was the development he set his mind on. I think the Hogyoku was simply doing what Aizen wanted and transforming Hollows according to his desires. What they became might not even be the true form of Arrancar at all. Furthermore, you've got Yhwach taking Aizen's Arrancar and somehow turning them into some other variant that uses Quincy Crosses instead of Zanpakuto. It seems to me that it's only through external intervention that Arrancar have become what they have.

    So it could be that Arrancar Zanpakutos are a simulation of Shinigami Zans as per Aizen's will, rather than the other way around.

    But it is definitely a mystery what led Nimaiya to his breakthrough. He said something about it being similar to the creation of White, who was made using a dead Shinigami's soul. It might just be that some Shinigami were manifesting their inner spirit in some other way, like Hitsugaya. He was having visions and turning the air around himself cold before he joined the Shinigami Academy. If enough other people went through the same thing, it makes sense that someone would start looking for ways to control and utilise the phenomenon.
    I don't remember seeing Barragan as an Arrancar before Aizen used the Hougyoko; he was a Vasto Lordes during the flashback, not an Arrancar.
    Predictions
    • Just as Quincies are evolved beings born from Humans, Shinigami are evolved beings born from Hollows.
    • Once Yhwach dies, Ichigo's Quincy powers will disappear and his soul will become unstable, causing the onset of Soul Suicide.
    • Yhwach isn't going to be the final antagonist.

  9. #9
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Nimaiya's Basis for Asauchi & Zanpakutou Manifestation

    I would argue he was an arrancar, not a VL. Barragan was not wearing a mask in the flashback, he had the same skull thing going on as when we saw him during the war. A VL is a hollow, in which case it must necessarily have a proper mask.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member NoOneInParticular's Avatar
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    Re: Nimaiya's Basis for Asauchi & Zanpakutou Manifestation

    ^ Yeah. The skull wasn't part of his mask, as we saw when he Resurrected it was just the effect his power had on his flesh. It seems that the crown was his mask. His face was uncovered, so I think he was an Arrancar. Same goes for Harribel, she had more of her mask left, but enough of her face was exposed to give the impression that she was an Arrancar as was hinted (but not actually confirmed IIRC) in the episode. They might have been VLs beforehand, which i only say because Ulquiorra seemed to be one in his databook special. And even then, it might have been a similar case to Shawlong where he was humanoid in shape but almost the size of a Gillian. But all that's another discussion I guess...

    Anyway, I'd guess that Aizen's complete Arrancar might only have had Zanpakutos as a symptom of his ideal of the "perfect" Arrancar.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member FetherMan's Avatar
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    Re: Nimaiya's Basis for Asauchi & Zanpakutou Manifestation

    The Asauchi is merely the weapon you use to transfer your spirit power into. When your power grows, the sword changes forms from Shikai to Bankai.
    It's kind of similar to what the Fullbringers did by concentrating their spirit powers into objects and manifesting them into powerful weapons.

  12. #12
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Nimaiya's Basis for Asauchi & Zanpakutou Manifestation

    Quote Originally Posted by NoOneInParticular View Post
    ^ Yeah. The skull wasn't part of his mask, as we saw when he Resurrected it was just the effect his power had on his flesh. It seems that the crown was his mask. His face was uncovered, so I think he was an Arrancar. Same goes for Harribel, she had more of her mask left, but enough of her face was exposed to give the impression that she was an Arrancar as was hinted (but not actually confirmed IIRC) in the episode. They might have been VLs beforehand, which i only say because Ulquiorra seemed to be one in his databook special. And even then, it might have been a similar case to Shawlong where he was humanoid in shape but almost the size of a Gillian. But all that's another discussion I guess...

    Anyway, I'd guess that Aizen's complete Arrancar might only have had Zanpakutos as a symptom of his ideal of the "perfect" Arrancar.
    Thats an interesting thought, I never gave that any attention. A zampakuto is in itself a tool foreign to shinigami which they take as a medium to connect them to their power. In turn, based on wonderweiss, it would seem like a zampakuto is the result of an arrancar being almost forcefully split from his power. Perhaps if aizen had imagined arrancar somewhat differently they could actually be even more similar to shinigami. They could be similar to what aizen made them but perhaps instead of splitting them from their form and power the better approach would have been to force their power and shape into their soul. Once there they would have needed asauchi much like shinigami do. Perhaps it would have been the needlessly complicated approach to some degree.

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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member druzod's Avatar
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    Re: Nimaiya's Basis for Asauchi & Zanpakutou Manifestation

    I'm thinking that Nimaiya is immuned against the quincy medallion because he is the creator of the first zanpakuto, and he knows how it works much like a machine.
    Release the World Engine!

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member NoOneInParticular's Avatar
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    Re: Nimaiya's Basis for Asauchi & Zanpakutou Manifestation

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Thats an interesting thought, I never gave that any attention. A zampakuto is in itself a tool foreign to shinigami which they take as a medium to connect them to their power. In turn, based on wonderweiss, it would seem like a zampakuto is the result of an arrancar being almost forcefully split from his power. Perhaps if aizen had imagined arrancar somewhat differently they could actually be even more similar to shinigami. They could be similar to what aizen made them but perhaps instead of splitting them from their form and power the better approach would have been to force their power and shape into their soul. Once there they would have needed asauchi much like shinigami do. Perhaps it would have been the needlessly complicated approach to some degree.
    I guess what Aizen did was boost their power and seal the core of it into the Zanpakuto, so it's pretty similar to what Shinigami do but quicker. His probably actually was the optimum method of creating Arrancar, that gave the greatest results since his Arrancar were more powerful than the previous kind. But they were fully artificial. They could possibly be described as mutant Arrancar, rather than complete Arrancar. This http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...5-page-18.html might actually be the true form of an Arrancar. I think the Numeros having Zans was just because Aizen's idea was to break the boundary between Shinigami and Hollow, and the Hogyoku was just responding to that.

    But that point made in the op about the parallel between Gillians and Asauchi is interesting. He did say something about how the creation of White was similar to the creation of Asauchi, hinting that using dead souls or spirit bodies was involved. And there's the thing that whilst White was created to insert itself within someone's soul and become one with their power, Asauchi exist to have Shinigami souls do that to them. White was made with a dead Shinigami, which could explain where it got it's ability to insert into another being since that's what Shinigami do. Asauchi could be made from Gillians, since they only become Adjuchas (as Asauchi only become Zanpakuto) by having a being of sufficient strength of will 'imprinting' on the Gillian body. You might definitely be onto something there.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Lee.J.Baxter's Avatar
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    Re: Nimaiya's Basis for Asauchi & Zanpakutou Manifestation

    Quote Originally Posted by NoOneInParticular View Post
    I guess what Aizen did was boost their power and seal the core of it into the Zanpakuto, so it's pretty similar to what Shinigami do but quicker. His probably actually was the optimum method of creating Arrancar, that gave the greatest results since his Arrancar were more powerful than the previous kind. But they were fully artificial. They could possibly be described as mutant Arrancar, rather than complete Arrancar. This http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...5-page-18.html might actually be the true form of an Arrancar. I think the Numeros having Zans was just because Aizen's idea was to break the boundary between Shinigami and Hollow, and the Hogyoku was just responding to that.

    But that point made in the op about the parallel between Gillians and Asauchi is interesting. He did say something about how the creation of White was similar to the creation of Asauchi, hinting that using dead souls or spirit bodies was involved. And there's the thing that whilst White was created to insert itself within someone's soul and become one with their power, Asauchi exist to have Shinigami souls do that to them. White was made with a dead Shinigami, which could explain where it got it's ability to insert into another being since that's what Shinigami do. Asauchi could be made from Gillians, since they only become Adjuchas (as Asauchi only become Zanpakuto) by having a being of sufficient strength of will 'imprinting' on the Gillian body. You might definitely be onto something there.
    Exactly!!! One more thing to note too; what happens when an Arrancar's released form is damaged??? Doesn't this sound like the same thing as what happens when a Shinigami's Bankai is damaged???
    Predictions
    • Just as Quincies are evolved beings born from Humans, Shinigami are evolved beings born from Hollows.
    • Once Yhwach dies, Ichigo's Quincy powers will disappear and his soul will become unstable, causing the onset of Soul Suicide.
    • Yhwach isn't going to be the final antagonist.

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