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Thread: Oni in retrospect

  1. #16
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Philia's Avatar
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    Re: Oni in retrospect

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    Or we can look at this by pitting some actual players in them.
    S3: Kintarou vs Nakagauchi =Yeah, right. Like Nakagauchi should be even close to #14 1st stringer.
    D2: Renji/Inui vs Matsudaira/Miyako =There might some small chance for 3rd court, but I don't think so.
    S2: Sanada vs Yamato =Yamato is even with Tezuka. Sanada beat Tezuka back then.
    D1: Anyone/Niou vs Syncho failure pair=Niou turn into one of the opponent and gain syncho. That beat 1st stringer pair that stomp this pair. And that is with Oishi.
    S1: Echizen vs Irie =Atobe pass this test. There's no way Echizen would fail this.

    Loser team are stronger than 5th court team. That's all. It even stated that each court from then on is a massive gap in strength. And it doesn't say anywhere that 2nd court and 3rd court is an exception.
    I wasn't comparing Court 3 with Black Jerseys. I am trying to say that Court 5 would've beat court 2 if they played a one another.

  2. #17
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member -Ken-'s Avatar
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    Re: Oni in retrospect

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    This is a pretty dishonest comparison. If you look at the improvements 5th court made between the team shuffle and the current matches, there's a very small chance that Kintarou had those stats or the ability to beat Hakamada back then.
    He's using Black Jersey vs 2nd court as example. So it's obviously black jersey Kintarou. So yes, he does have those stats.

    ---------- Post added at 08:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:16 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Yukikuranoske View Post
    I wasn't comparing Court 3 with Black Jerseys. I am trying to say that Court 5 would've beat court 2 if they played a one another.
    Since court 2 is suppose to be on another level as 3rd court, I wouldn't say they would beat it 5-0.
    Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

    If you knows you're on my ignore list and you quote my post, there's high chance I would ignore you. Or answer you and not look at your response.

  3. #18
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Kaoz's Avatar
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    Re: Oni in retrospect

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    He's using Black Jersey vs 2nd court as example. So it's obviously black jersey Kintarou. So yes, he does have those stats.
    So you're saying Kintarou and the rest of the BJB didn't improve since they returned from the mountain and until the 1st string returned?

  4. #19
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member -Ken-'s Avatar
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    Re: Oni in retrospect

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    So you're saying Kintarou and the rest of the BJB didn't improve since they returned from the mountain and until the 1st string returned?
    Considering that the part that Kintarou show off to #14 isn't even close to his real strength, I say it's totally possible that his peak can be at that level when he come down from the mountain.

    And we know Kintarou beat 2nd court player.

    And going off by here

    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/new_p...03/c027/9.html

    It's a "completely another level of strength". I don't really doubt that he's stronger than Nakaguachi. Do you?

    And that page should really prove that 2nd court > 3rd court already. There's simply no need for this discussion.
    Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

    If you knows you're on my ignore list and you quote my post, there's high chance I would ignore you. Or answer you and not look at your response.

  5. #20
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Philia's Avatar
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    Re: Oni in retrospect

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    Since court 2 is suppose to be on another level as 3rd court, I wouldn't say they would beat it 5-0.
    I think Court 5 would beat Black Jerseys.

    Singles 3: Tezuka
    Doubles 2: Shiraishi/Kirihara
    Singles 2: Atobe
    Doubles 1: Chitose/Tachibana
    Singles 1: Oni
    Reserve : Akutsu

    I am positive that this team can beat Black Jerseys.
    Last edited by Philia; September 20, 2013 at 09:07 AM.

  6. #21
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Kaoz's Avatar
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    Re: Oni in retrospect

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    Considering that the part that Kintarou show off to #14 isn't even close to his real strength, I say it's totally possible that his peak can be at that level when he come down from the mountain.
    We don't know exactly how much of his real power Tooyama kept hidden when playing Hakamada, so it not being "close to his real strength" is pushing it. For all we know, it could just refer to him fighting Hakamada head-on whereas he was actually playing smart against Oni.

  7. #22
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member -Ken-'s Avatar
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    Re: Oni in retrospect

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    We don't know exactly how much of his real power Tooyama kept hidden when playing Hakamada, so it not being "close to his real strength" is pushing it. For all we know, it could just refer to him fighting Hakamada head-on whereas he was actually playing smart against Oni.
    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/new_p...8/c091/13.html

    I didn't know hiding his full power until his real match could mean simply playing smart. Now, I think that's pushing the definition. If he use 95% of his power against Hakamada, and 100% against Oni, that's not really holding back. We're not given any percentage anyhow, so it's impossible to know. But if we use Momoshiro holding back as an example, as it is the only percentage we're ever really given in the story, it's a massive amount. But even if it's 80% against Hakamada, that's still a fair amount being used.

    And as I say before, this is just unrelated. The manga itself already stated that there's a massive different between each court. It doesn't matter at all.

    ---------- Post added at 11:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:16 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Yukikuranoske View Post
    I think Court 5 would beat Black Jerseys.

    Singles 3: Tezuka
    Doubles 2: Shiraishi/Kirihara
    Singles 2: Atobe
    Doubles 1: Chitose/Tachibana
    Singles 1: Oni
    Reserve : Akutsu

    I am positive that this team can beat Black Jerseys.
    If you count Tezuka who just gain Tnk and Oni who just gain TnK, sure. Otherwise, Tezuka is off to Germany already and Oni really shows that he wouldn't play in court shuffle if not in reserve.

    And what I need is a proof from the manga that 3rd court > 2nd court. What we are given from the page I post above is that 2nd court > 3rd court. Anything else that's not from the manga is irrelevant.

    If you were to compare the two line-up, you have to use 5th court line-up Oni come up with, as that's what give the result to the current one that we're given. If 5th court can use the same line-up at the time before Black Jersey Revolution without the upgrade and manage to win over 2nd court 5-0, then that would shows that they are better. Without playing Yamato, no one will be suggesting Tezuka to play for Fun, which means no PoP.

    just lining up a new line-up and say that can beat 3rd court and black jersey just doesn't prove anything. It's a new line-up already, with different characters.
    Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

    If you knows you're on my ignore list and you quote my post, there's high chance I would ignore you. Or answer you and not look at your response.

  8. #23
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    Re: Oni in retrospect

    Quote Originally Posted by Yukikuranoske View Post
    I think Court 5 would beat Black Jerseys.

    Singles 3: Tezuka
    Doubles 2: Shiraishi/Kirihara
    Singles 2: Atobe
    Doubles 1: Chitose/Tachibana
    Singles 1: Oni
    Reserve : Akutsu

    I am positive that this team can beat Black Jerseys.
    I sort of agree here. Its possible Court 5 would win, but factor in the conditions that are too crucial in this instance.
    For instance, T Oni wouldn't put himself in the TeamShuffle for the MSers.
    Its strongly implied he wasn't even the listed reserve since Jirou, Gin, Kite & Akutsu had no expections of Oni stepping up to play.
    Oni just leaped up in the moment.

    So the team would be without Oni unfortunately.




    And the MSers Court 3 VS MSers Court 2

    S3: Kite
    D2: Shiraishi/Kirihara
    S2: Akutsu
    D1:Tachibana/Chitose
    S1: Atobe
    R: Ishida

    VS

    S3: Tooyama
    D2: Niou/Oishi
    S2: Sanada
    D1: Yanagi/Inui
    S1: Ryoma

    It doesn't look good for MSCourt3 if I'm honest.

    ---------- Post added at 06:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:03 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    And as I say before, this is just unrelated. The manga itself already stated that there's a massive different between each court. It doesn't matter at all.
    There are many things the manga has said, that changed as the story went on btw.
    Its like believing that the list of the 1st String was completely in order of strength.
    That seriously isn't the case.

    The fact that Yamato and Nakagauchi are in the Top10 of the 2ndString shows that those two were better than at least one Court1 guy.
    In fact, those two were clearly better than their fellow court members (Irie doesn't count).
    Irie, another example of Court 3.
    So honestly, I wouldn't go as far as to say Court 3 < Court 2. We know Migihashi was the Court Leader (So basically strongest)
    And Irie > Migihashi is pretty obvious.
    I think Nakagauchi and Yamato suddenly revealing they aren't as weak as people thought, and Irie trolling Atobe are key elements of the Team Shuffle when measuring Court3's strength.

    Migihashi is seemingly around the same level as Yamato and Nakagauchi if you look at the 2ndString list when the 1st String arrive.
    So the fact that the rest of Court 2 is weaker than Migihashi truly implies that the gap between Court 2 and Court 3 isn't like what Tanegashima said.
    I'd say the gap was possibly big for guys like Miyako, Matsudaira, Takei etc. between the rest of Court2. But not for Irie, Yamato and Nakagauchi.

    The only Court that has a big gap is Court 1.
    Since Tokugawa, 2ndString No.4, 5, 6 & 7, are all most likely from Court 1.

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  10. #24
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member -Ken-'s Avatar
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    Re: Oni in retrospect

    Well, Irie is above 3rd court level, we know that much. Yamato is also above 3rd court level, since he was hiding GYGU until then. I don't think Nakagauchi reveal anything though. He got stomp in his 1st stringer match. The only reason Nakagauchi is shown to be on the same "level" as those is because the 2nd stringer beside the court leader all go home when they lose to the black jersey. Which make sense. It's probably the court shuffle that they play. If you shuffle with someone without a court, you don't have the court in the camp. They might be doing mountain training right now, who knows. And I don't really know the 2nd court leader avoid going home either.
    Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

    If you knows you're on my ignore list and you quote my post, there's high chance I would ignore you. Or answer you and not look at your response.

  11. #25
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Hardy's Avatar
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    Re: Oni in retrospect

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    We don't know exactly how much of his real power Tooyama kept hidden when playing Hakamada, so it not being "close to his real strength" is pushing it. For all we know, it could just refer to him fighting Hakamada head-on whereas he was actually playing smart against Oni.
    When was it said he was hiding something at all? It looks like he played 100 % and even improved in that match.

  12. #26
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member -Ken-'s Avatar
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    Re: Oni in retrospect

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardy View Post
    When was it said he was hiding something at all? It looks like he played 100 % and even improved in that match.
    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/new_p...8/c091/13.html

    It shows he doesn't play 100% before this match, at the very least.
    Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

    If you knows you're on my ignore list and you quote my post, there's high chance I would ignore you. Or answer you and not look at your response.

  13. #27
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Hardy's Avatar
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    Re: Oni in retrospect

    Oni was in the 1st court when Kintarou was playing Hakamada. I believe not a single person saw him playing that match. Oni is surely talking about hiding it while training.

  14. #28
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member -Ken-'s Avatar
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    Re: Oni in retrospect

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardy View Post
    Oni was in the 1st court when Kintarou was playing Hakamada. I believe not a single person saw him playing that match. Oni is surely talking about hiding it while training.
    Yet Kaji play with Oni in the dark and his stats are updated. These coach are sneaky. They must have update other 1st stringer in their match too. As well as Kintarou.

    And I don't believe Oni base stats is worst than Hakamada at all. If basic Kintarou can get 3 game off Oni (he only use special serve, which is return anyways, so kinda useless), that's a notice amount of improvement.

    Considering the bad of a shape Kintarou was when he play Hakamada, the match look really close. If KIntarou was only slightly better than #14, I doubt he'll do this well against Oni.
    Last edited by -Ken-; September 20, 2013 at 10:49 PM.
    Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

    If you knows you're on my ignore list and you quote my post, there's high chance I would ignore you. Or answer you and not look at your response.

  15. #29
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Hardy's Avatar
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    Re: Oni in retrospect

    I never said that Oni had worse stats than Hakamada nor anything like that.

    Hakamada without Vanish = Insta-rape from Kintarou. Kin just needed to counter that, he did, and then he easily won the match.

    ---------- Post added at 12:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:52 AM ----------

    Hell, Oni wasn't even playing at his 50 % when Kintarou won all those games in a row.

  16. #30
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    Re: Oni in retrospect

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardy View Post
    Oni was in the 1st court when Kintarou was playing Hakamada. I believe not a single person saw him playing that match. Oni is surely talking about hiding it while training.
    That's another way to look at it too.
    But remember Matsudaira Chikahiko was the audience to Tooyama Kintarou VS Hakamada Izou.
    In fact, every match had an audience as long as the HSer of the 2nd String was still conscious.
    The only HSers to remain conscious after their ass-kicking was Suzuki and Matsudaira, whilst Washio got "revived".

    So its possible Oni got info on the match from Matsudaira.
    The other matches like Mitsuya's match or Kawamura's match have no witnesses since people like Takei and Miyako were out cold.

    Also, taking 3 games from an Oni who only has BJK at his disposal is sort of expected from Tooyama.
    Remember Nationals!Tooyama was already able to fight back against the Oni that must have faced Momoshiro when Ryoma/Kintaro took on Tokugawa/Oni.
    So it could be implied Oni played the same as before to see how much Kintaro had improved since last time.
    Last edited by Airgrimes; September 21, 2013 at 05:14 AM.

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