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Thread: PIS and eternal sunsets.

  1. #31
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Yumpo's Avatar
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    Re: PIS and eternal sunsets.

    Trost Plan:
    The reason why they couldn't wait any longer 'cause they don't know when the Armored Titan might appear and try to breach the Wall again. At that time, they didn't know that there were other shifters like Eren. The Armored and Colossal Titans were still classified as Abnormals with Intelligence. Not human shifters waiting for the right time to act. So they were thinking things like "What if the Armored Titan appeared now?" They can't possibly know when will the Armored Titan appear again. Yup, he might appear during sunset too if Eren and the others decided to wait for nightfall. That's why they can't afford to risk that and let it happen.

    Nighttime Recon:
    Too many unknown variables. Castle Utgard pretty much shows that there could actually be Titans walking around at night. Sure, they may have gathered info that Titans grow inactive during night time, but those were mostly from selected experiments. Walking in the actual den of Titans could be way more different with abnormals running around. Plus, visibility is actually a problem, if you're moving with a large army. How can you clearly see the color of smoke signals being fired at night? Miscommunications are more likely to occur, unless they actually find a new way to relay quick messages.


    And was there actually a plan to move out at night other than the plan that uses Eren? If so, please tell me, 'cause I might have missed it.
    That plan to move out at night with Eren though was because they have him and they hypothesized that he maybe able to use the same abilities as the Female Titan. Plus, the plan just involved a small group(because there's no need for carts to store materials), which makes miscommunications less likely to occur. But this is all because they have Eren. If Eren isn't with them, this plan would be considered risky since they'd really have to bring a large number of people to store the materials required to plug the wall.

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  3. #32
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Utsune's Avatar
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    Re: PIS and eternal sunsets.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    No, I get your point. It's that the Armored Titan would still be a threat if he appeared as Eren was carrying the boulder. So he's a threat in both cases. The scared commander also implied that they are preparing to face the Armored Titan.

    Still really doesn't explain why not do it at night. After convincing the soldiers with his plan, Pixis could have just waited 30 minutes (as you counted).
    I think the way these things work is that, once you have a rebel element who is acting within a generally consented 'reason' (in this case, fighting the impossible) it spread like wild fire. As soon as somebody makes the first kill on their superior, the system will fall apart before the Titans can rip them one. Pixis realises this and bets on persuading the few (as well as psychologically limiting them to two options of either help Eren or be responsible for their family's death, very forcibly persuaded but viable in the midst of confusion) in order to turn back the wave of rebellious tendencies, before things get fully out of control. If only people would listen to orders like machines, I wouldn't doubt Pixis carrying out the plan at night like you say. It's harsh to say but it's a necessary sacrifice while racing against time, before the point of no return.


    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Oh, I thought you linked the page about Bean so I didn't pay attention to it. Well...it's weird to be THAT dark.
    I'm usually a city person but I do have experience with the darkness in the countryside. Without the moon and artificial lights, it gets dangerously dark, you can't even see your own hand. So I can see why they are fretting :P

  4. #33
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: PIS and eternal sunsets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Utsune View Post
    I think the way these things work is that, once you have a rebel element who is acting within a generally consented 'reason' (in this case, fighting the impossible) it spread like wild fire. As soon as somebody makes the first kill on their superior, the system will fall apart before the Titans can rip them one. Pixis realises this and bets on persuading the few (as well as psychologically limiting them to two options of either help Eren or be responsible for their family's death, very forcibly persuaded but viable in the midst of confusion) in order to turn back the wave of rebellious tendencies, before things get fully out of control. If only people would listen to orders like machines, I wouldn't doubt Pixis carrying out the plan at night like you say. It's harsh to say but it's a necessary sacrifice while racing against time, before the point of no return.
    Makes sense. But wouldn't telling them that the plan will take place at night make them feel better? Most of them were rebelling because of terror, and if I remember, one of them said he doesn't want to die and leave his family without a father. I know I would feel a lot better if he told me the plan would take place at night.

    Quote Quote:
    I'm usually a city person but I do have experience with the darkness in the countryside. Without the moon and artificial lights, it gets dangerously dark, you can't even see your own hand. So I can see why they are fretting :P
    I'm convinced. I certainly wouldn't want a creepy smiling titan in my face before I know how he got there.

    EDIT: I'm assuming you're a manga reader, so :
    Spoiler show
    Last edited by KingOfNight; September 24, 2013 at 12:47 PM.

  5. #34
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Utsune's Avatar
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    Re: PIS and eternal sunsets.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Makes sense. But wouldn't telling them that the plan will take place at night make them feel better? Most of them were rebelling because of terror, and if I remember, one of them said he doesn't want to die and leave his family without a father. I know I would feel a lot better if he told me the plan would take place at night.
    I think humans are funny creatures in that they change their mind with time. If you force them into a decision that expects immediate action, they're much more likely to follow through. On the other hand, the strength of conspiracies grows with time. Rational people like you and me of course desire your suggestion. In fact, I think if they're taking action at night, they wouldn't even need any soldiers for that, just Eren and a few torch-holding people. Forcing them into action makes a direct connection between the situation and their involvement. Pixis sure knows his PR skills lol.


    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    EDIT: I'm assuming you're a manga reader, so :
    Spoiler show
    *He* would be running on his own, I think there's the difference between running on your own and travelling in a group on horseback. The size difference also means that terrain issues are minimised for *him*. I did horse-riding for a while and I can't imagine going at a desirable pace in pitch black. I'd like to point out it is possible though, but always preferably on flat-ground. In any case, I think we'll have to remind ourselves the purpose of the scouting legion in the first place. In the past, they do these expeditions in order to find resources/minerals to bring back home. I would half-expect them to simply scout over large distances for possible locations before deciding whether to move in on those positions or not. This cannot be done in the dark because obviously, they won't be able to scout over any distance at all lol.

    ---------- Post added at 07:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:06 PM ----------

    Btw I'm not putting forward these arguments as a definite counter. I'm quite glad this is brought up so I actually get to evaluate these issues a bit more seriously.

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  7. #35
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Re: PIS and eternal sunsets.

    The night issue has been brought up before. There's no reason to go out at night. They can't see anything without a good moon and communicating in a large group would be impossible without smoke signals. The most they could do is maybe take out a few Titans but they would struggle to map areas or study Titans. Plus in pitch black you can't go at high speeds on horseback. The one plan to go at night involved only a few people that can stay together, and they had no need to carry supplies to fix the wall or anything.
    Manga spoiler
    Spoiler show


    During Trost they needed the wall patch as soon as they could as the armored titans could appear at any moment. And Eren probably can;t transform at night.


    Also, guns would be almost ineffective. they worked in the supply building because they had 5 or so pointed at each Titan at close range and didn't miss. On a horse you don't have the stability to hit a Titan high unless you're still and it's really close to you, by which time you would be eaten. Plus you would have to land a shot in each eye minimum (probably several on a big Titan), how on earth can you do that whilst moving and having a Titan run at you. The formation primarily went around Titans, only deviants broke the formation (and they aren't exactly sitting targets). Given the size of a Titan, mere bullets would do nothing unless you hit the eyes (and even then we've seen they can regenerate eye/bullet wounds in seconds).

  8. #36
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: PIS and eternal sunsets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Utsune View Post
    I think humans are funny creatures in that they change their mind with time. If you force them into a decision that expects immediate action, they're much more likely to follow through. On the other hand, the strength of conspiracies grows with time. Rational people like you and me of course desire your suggestion. In fact, I think if they're taking action at night, they wouldn't even need any soldiers for that, just Eren and a few torch-holding people. Forcing them into action makes a direct connection between the situation and their involvement. Pixis sure knows his PR skills lol.
    Exactly! No one would need to die...aside from the ones Eren will be killing.

    Quote Quote:
    *He* would be running on his own, I think there's the difference between running on your own and travelling in a group on horseback. The size difference also means that terrain issues are minimised for *him*. I did horse-riding for a while and I can't imagine going at a desirable pace in pitch black. I'd like to point out it is possible though, but always preferably on flat-ground. In any case, I think we'll have to remind ourselves the purpose of the scouting legion in the first place. In the past, they do these expeditions in order to find resources/minerals to bring back home. I would half-expect them to simply scout over large distances for possible locations before deciding whether to move in on those positions or not. This cannot be done in the dark because obviously, they won't be able to scout over any distance at all lol.
    Yeah, naturally, *His* characteristics would make this easier. From what we saw in Eren's first expedition...the ground was as flat as it could get. I was actually thinking of starting a topic about the Scouting Legion and their "purpose." But while we're at it, was it mentioned what kind of resources\minerals they expect to find? I blitzed through this manga, so I missed a lot of small details.

  9. #37
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Utsune's Avatar
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    Re: PIS and eternal sunsets.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Exactly! No one would need to die...aside from the ones Eren will be killing.
    Well yeah, assuming they will behave like machines and not human :P Which is far from the truth. As Erwin puts it, there are times you have to choose the lesser of the two evils.


    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Yeah, naturally, *His* characteristics would make this easier. From what we saw in Eren's first expedition...the ground was as flat as it could get. I was actually thinking of starting a topic about the Scouting Legion and their "purpose." But while we're at it, was it mentioned what kind of resources\minerals they expect to find? I blitzed through this manga, so I missed a lot of small details.
    There is a specific mention about finding the materials to seal off the broken gate at Shiganshina or something. Apparently the standard procedure will take 20 years (scout + plan + transport the raw materials.) The page is here (for a few pages after this):
    http://www.mangapanda.com/shingeki-no-kyojin/37/11
    (I would be careful with the translation though, because we've had a few problems with translation in many of the older chapters.)

    And then Armin did suggest sending a small team with Eren at nighttime to use his titan ability to seal off the gate instead.

    I personally wouldn't bother with the accuracy too much, I have faith in Isayama's setup, because I'm well aware he has at least two very knowledgeable friends to help him with the validity of certain settings pertaining realism.

    Btw, Eren's first expedition is within Wall Maria, and not *outside.* I think there will definitely be a difference.

  10. #38
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: PIS and eternal sunsets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Utsune View Post
    Well yeah, assuming they will behave like machines and not human :P Which is far from the truth. As Erwin puts it, there are times you have to choose the lesser of the two evils.
    I still think it's more human like to go at night.

    Quote Quote:
    There is a specific mention about finding the materials to seal off the broken gate at Shiganshina or something. Apparently the standard procedure will take 20 years (scout + plan + transport the raw materials.) The page is here (for a few pages after this):
    http://www.mangapanda.com/shingeki-no-kyojin/37/11
    (I would be careful with the translation though, because we've had a few problems with translation in many of the older chapters.)

    And then Armin did suggest sending a small team with Eren at nighttime to use his titan ability to seal off the gate instead.

    I personally wouldn't bother with the accuracy too much, I have faith in Isayama's setup, because I'm well aware he has at least two very knowledgeable friends to help him with the validity of certain settings pertaining realism.

    Btw, Eren's first expedition is within Wall Maria, and not *outside.* I think there will definitely be a difference.
    So the plan of moving at night is actually possible. And worse, Hanji is absolutely shocked at the thought of moving at night. Really? It's that unthinkable? Armin's suggestion just confirmed for me that it would've been far smarter to retrieve Trost at night.

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    Re: PIS and eternal sunsets.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Armin's suggestion just confirmed for me that it would've been far smarter to retrieve Trost at night.
    How would they retake Trost at night? So far Eren has only shown he can transform during daytime.

  12. #40
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: PIS and eternal sunsets.

    Quote Originally Posted by epictoads View Post
    How would they retake Trost at night? So far Eren has only shown he can transform during daytime.
    What makes you think he can't do it at night? Do you read the Manga?

  13. #41
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Yumpo's Avatar
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    Re: PIS and eternal sunsets.

    Umm...Did you guys miss my post from the last page? I think it's probably because I posted it at the same time as Utsune. XD

    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3544918

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  15. #42
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: PIS and eternal sunsets.

    The main issue with guns would IMO be the required skill to actually land a shot in the eye of a 15 meter beast. Guns seem to be pretty much what you'd expect with their current technology which is simply terrible. Even if you did shot the eye of a titan a wound that small would heal in no time at all which means the amount of time the titan would remain blind is negligible at best. So you have a gun with poor accuracy and a need for places to shot at this guys from to boot. At least with what little we know it actually seems less stupid to swing around them with swords. As far as weaponry goes I always wondered why they didn't make cannon balls with more shrapnel so to speak. They somehow already have cannonballs which explode on contact so why not try to make them so that a lot more shrapnel goes around when they explode? Titans can heal but if a piece of metal remains in them it could go a long way to defeat them. In the best case scenario the nape is damaged enough to kill it however even if they end up with a piece of shrapnel elsewhere it can mean a number of advantages for them. The piece would cause the titan to constantly regenerate which means they have something eating away at its stamina. To boot if a leg or armed is hurt it would main its mobility or its ability to reach for juicy humans.

  16. #43
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    Re: PIS and eternal sunsets.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    What makes you think he can't do it at night? Do you read the Manga?
    I do and Eren hasn't transformed at night. Even if he can they haven't shown it and they would have no idea if he could.
    Manga
    Spoiler show


    And as Yumpo said, they didn't know when the armed Titan would show up do they had to block the breach asap.

  17. #44
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Utsune's Avatar
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    Re: PIS and eternal sunsets.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    I still think it's more human like to go at night.

    So the plan of moving at night is actually possible. And worse, Hanji is absolutely shocked at the thought of moving at night. Really? It's that unthinkable? Armin's suggestion just confirmed for me that it would've been far smarter to retrieve Trost at night.
    Lol I feel this is going round in circles, so I'll try to make this my last comment.

    My impression is, the soldiers have very literally given up hope, and are about to revolt against their superiors in a blood bath just to see their family for the last time.

    In order to calm the situation, Pixis forces two choices out of nowhere. In the first place, it has always been "to not revolt" or "to revolt." Pixis cunningly turns the choices into "to assist Eren" or "to not assist Eren." The latter choice, "to not assist Eren," is phrased something like "to walk out on your family's death" in order to make a personal connection with each and every one of them.

    For this persuasion to work, they need immediate results. Meaning immediate action. Meaning temporarily stopping a rebellion. When they are pushed to the limit, they will give this final ray of hope a try, especially when Pixis has handed them the guilt card. You need to bear in mind, it is already difficult to get people to trust in Pixis's words about Eren, and doubts grow as time grows. There is absolutely no morale left, and waiting any longer would only mean the irrational few many starting a rebellion, and the rest of the soldiers will soon follow. You need to understand that people especially in such a state are irrational by nature. People have the tendency to voice out their emotions, and given the chance, the quieter of the lot will follow the suite and ride along with the flow. This has happened countless times in real life history as well as in fiction, most notably voicing out anger in the form of violence against unfairness. The London riot is a good example. FMA Envy killing the child to trigger a war is also an example. And exactly by the irrational nature, the general population is easily manipulated, either by a more powerful organisation, or by their own rage. This is what Pixis fears the most, and this is absolutely a race against time.

    Pixis is also assuming the Armour Titan will attack. Plugging in the breached Wall before the Armour attack is infinitely better for morale than plugging in the breached Wall after the Armour attack. If the Armour attack came before attempting to plug in the breached Wall, the soldiers wouldn't buy Pixis's speech anymore, because the "Walk out on your family's death" is effectively overridden by the Armour attack. If the Armour attack came after plugging in the breached Wall, there's still leftover morale from plugging in the Wall. For argument's sake, this is a second race against time, in parallel with the first.

    The main goal has always been quelling the unsettled soldiers, rather than saving Trost with minimal deaths. The former brings about a total destruction of humanity, while the latter prioritises in saving the few lives of soldiers. Erwin is a fine example of believing in saving the greater number with the sacrifice of the few, since we have seen him doing so a few times. And if you remember Armin acting very surprised that Pixis takes up on his hastily thought-up plan the moment he hears it, that's because Pixis understands this can't go on longer. Eren explains a few pages later that the real enemy are the unsettled people within the Wall, that could break the system and bring about the fall of humanity.

    ---------- Post added at 09:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:08 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Yumpo View Post
    Umm...Did you guys miss my post from the last page? I think it's probably because I posted it at the same time as Utsune. XD

    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3544918
    Aww

    Sorry! Here's a cow

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  19. #45
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: PIS and eternal sunsets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yumpo View Post
    Trost Plan:
    The reason why they couldn't wait any longer 'cause they don't know when the Armored Titan might appear and try to breach the Wall again. At that time, they didn't know that there were other shifters like Eren. The Armored and Colossal Titans were still classified as Abnormals with Intelligence. Not human shifters waiting for the right time to act. So they were thinking things like "What if the Armored Titan appeared now?" They can't possibly know when will the Armored Titan appear again. Yup, he might appear during sunset too if Eren and the others decided to wait for nightfall. That's why they can't afford to risk that and let it happen.
    Your comment was not forgotten. Worry not

    Like I said, the Armored Titan's appearance would have been a problem either way. It would've actually been better to wait until nightfall. Why is that? Because as the scared commander said, soldiers were preparing for the Armored Titan's attack, so they may have had a plan to stop him. Had they chose to wait until nightfall, they would've simply continued with their original plan to stop the Armored Titan until the sun sets. However, by initiating Trost's plan, they discarded their preparation and sent men straight to their death. Had the Armored Titan appeared then and there, he would've not only foiled the plan to retrieve Trost, but would also have breached the inner gate with ease, since the plan to deal with him was discarded. So with most men already dead trying to retrieve Trost, the rest are pretty much screwed.

    As for the nighttime Survey Corps. I already understand.


    Quote Originally Posted by epictoads View Post
    I do and Eren hasn't transformed at night. Even if he can they haven't shown it and they would have no idea if he could.
    Manga
    Spoiler show


    And as Yumpo said, they didn't know when the armed Titan would show up do they had to block the breach asap.
    He didn't transform at night because it's always sunset But seriously, he didn't transform at night because he never needed to do so at night.

    Spoiler show


    The Armored Titan again, see above.
    Last edited by KingOfNight; September 25, 2013 at 06:21 AM.

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