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Thread: PIS and eternal sunsets.

  1. #46
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Yumpo's Avatar
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    Re: PIS and eternal sunsets.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Your comment was not forgotten. Worry not

    Like I said, the Armored Titan's appearance would have been a problem either way. It would've actually been better to wait until nightfall. Why is that? Because as the scared commander said, soldiers were preparing for the Armored Titan's attack, so they may have had a plan to stop him. Had they chose to wait until nightfall, they would've simply continued with their original plan to stop the Armored Titan until the sun sets. However, by initiating Trost's plan, they discarded their preparation and sent men straight to their death. Had the Armored Titan appeared then and there, he would've not only foiled the plan to retrieve Trost, but would also have breached the inner gate with ease, since the plan to deal with him was discarded. So with most men already dead trying to retrieve Trost, the rest are pretty much screwed.
    Except that plan to stop the Armored Titan isn't surefire either. We've seen most of the Garrison are already in a panic. Seeing imminent death again, they would most likely flee. And the plan, if I recall, is made by most people who don't even have experience facing Titans and don't have the resolve that the Survey Corp has. It would most likely still result to the same thing with using Eren to plug the hole, lots of lives lost, and probably even worse, Wall Rose actually breached.

    Plus, Utsune's explanation on human psychology on how irrational people get over time. XD

  2. #47
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: PIS and eternal sunsets.

    During the first attack on the wall the two attacks on the gates were pretty close to each other timewise. On the other hand the armored titan simply did not appear in trost even after the initial attack on the gate. There is also the consideration that even if the armored titan appeared it could not really do everything at once. It could do one of two things basically. If he went for the gate there was still the plan to seal the gate on the other side which would make the destruction of the second gate pointless. If he went for eren then he would not have immediately destroyed the second wall. The issue here is that places like trost are not precisely small. If he went for both, the moment he went for one he immediately became a target for every soldier there. Worst case scenario he had to face eren, the soldiers and other titans. If reyner had done something he would have had to make a very careful choice given his options.

  3. #48
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Re: PIS and eternal sunsets.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Your comment was not forgotten. Worry not

    Like I said, the Armored Titan's appearance would have been a problem either way. It would've actually been better to wait until nightfall. Why is that? Because as the scared commander said, soldiers were preparing for the Armored Titan's attack, so they may have had a plan to stop him. Had they chose to wait until nightfall, they would've simply continued with their original plan to stop the Armored Titan until the sun sets. However, by initiating Trost's plan, they discarded their preparation and sent men straight to their death. Had the Armored Titan appeared then and there, he would've not only foiled the plan to retrieve Trost, but would also have breached the inner gate with ease, since the plan to deal with him was discarded. So with most men already dead trying to retrieve Trost, the rest are pretty much screwed.

    As for the nighttime Survey Corps. I already understand.




    He didn't transform at night because it's always sunset But seriously, he didn't transform at night because he never needed to do so at night.

    Spoiler show


    The Armored Titan again, see above.

    Reason 1) The armored Titan could show up at any minute and smash the gate, they needed it sealed asap. You think they could of stopped him if he appeared/charged? The 'plan' would have been barricades and probably hundreds of canons which would do nothing, just like they had a 'plan' to seal the gate, and a 'plan' stop Titans getting in through the hole. Everyone (and defensibly Pixis) would know that their 'plan' would fail and they had no real defense. There is no way they could stop the armored or colossal Titans realistically without studying them properly. If they could stop him that would have made the armored Titan pointless.

    Reason 2) Eren has NEVER shown the ability to transform or move as a Titan at night. The only evidence that he can is that he's never tried it/failed. He's never tried to fly either so you never know. And at the point in time (Trost battle) no Titan had EVER shown to be able to move at night and it was general knowledge that they can't, so why would they think Eren could? So even if he could transform, Pixis and the crew would still logically assume he can't.

    Spoiler show


    ^2 very good reasons why waiting until night would have been pointless.

  4. #49
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Yumpo's Avatar
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    Re: PIS and eternal sunsets.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    During the first attack on the wall the two attacks on the gates were pretty close to each other timewise. On the other hand the armored titan simply did not appear in trost even after the initial attack on the gate. There is also the consideration that even if the armored titan appeared it could not really do everything at once. It could do one of two things basically. If he went for the gate there was still the plan to seal the gate on the other side which would make the destruction of the second gate pointless. If he went for eren then he would not have immediately destroyed the second wall. The issue here is that places like trost are not precisely small. If he went for both, the moment he went for one he immediately became a target for every soldier there. Worst case scenario he had to face eren, the soldiers and other titans. If reyner had done something he would have had to make a very careful choice given his options.
    The problem of having a face off between Reiner and Eren at that time is that it is also an even bigger risk. Eren still couldn't control his powers. And even if Eren managed to beat the Armored Titan almost to a pulp, remember that BA are still there for backup. Annie could also shift to the Female Titan when push comes to shove and comes for Reiner's help. Of course, that would also mean risking that there's another "Abnormal Titan" in existence. Pretty much the only Titan who could actually beat Titan!Eren in a fight would be the Female Titan.

    The second gate's destruction wouldn't be actually pointless either. Titans left inside Trost could finally enter Wall Rose. But that's not the real problem. It's not good for the soldiers' morale. Wide mass panic amongst the soldiers would run abound. Soldiers would become even more irrational, run away and really go back to their families instead of helping plugging the wall. The ones left who would actually want to do it would be so few that chances of success for the mission would even lessen.

    And if the soldiers actually tried to face off the Armored Titan by themselves, it's almost practically useless. The Armored Titan is, as his name says, armored XD. It's almost pretty much invincible. We've seen how the soldiers with maneuvering gears fight with him in the manga, no? Of course, with traps, the only ones that would most likely work for the Armored Titan would be the same as the traps used for the Female Titan. But the problem with that is that those traps are devised by the Survey Corp, not the Garrison, and there's no control of information for it because they would likely need a help of a lot of soldiers regardless of them being in the Garrison or trainees. And remember what RBA are, trainees XD. They could just easily find a way to avoid the traps.

    Anyway, the soldiers are acting at the assumption that the Armored Titan is only in it for the destruction of the second gate and it would appear anytime, despite the discrepancy of time between his appearance and the Colossal Titan's during the attack on Shiganshina. They don't know that they're going for Eren, that they're humans inside Titans, or that they actually stopped to want to destroy the second gate.
    Last edited by Yumpo; September 25, 2013 at 01:12 PM.

  5. #50
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member
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    Re: PIS and eternal sunsets.

    I'm no expert on post-medieval and modern weaponry, but, if possible, wouldn't it be wise to have bombs that explode automatically when exposed to a very hot environment (such as a titan's inner parts) as part of a soldier's equipment? If a soldier gets eaten, the bomb explodes automatically, killing the titan or weakening him so he can be killed by someone else? If this would be possible, it would mean that for every dead soldier there would be at least a dead titan (not counting Deviants and Shifters, although the former also eat humans in certain cases)

  6. #51
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    Re: PIS and eternal sunsets.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOwl View Post
    I'm no expert on post-medieval and modern weaponry, but, if possible, wouldn't it be wise to have bombs that explode automatically when exposed to a very hot environment (such as a titan's inner parts) as part of a soldier's equipment? If a soldier gets eaten, the bomb explodes automatically, killing the titan or weakening him so he can be killed by someone else? If this would be possible, it would mean that for every dead soldier there would be at least a dead titan (not counting Deviants and Shifters, although the former also eat humans in certain cases)

    I'm no expert either but that seems to be really pushing the tech they have to convenient levels. A bomb in a big Titan stomach would have to destroy 5m or so of flesh to give enough damage to the nape, which is unrealistic for a small explosive at that time (or even modern grenades). Plus I doubt they have the chemical tech to make a bomb that wouldn't explode on a hot day or in a close fight with a Titan, but would explode inside a Titan (which is hot but not THAT much hotter, there would need to be a few hundred degrees of temperature difference for it to have a chance). And the bomb would have to be stable as well or they would blow up troops every 5 minutes, which it wouldn't be if it exploded from a small temp change (the exact temperature of Titans isn't stated but I don't think it could be any more than 50 degrees at the max). And to have a bomb small enough to strap to maneuver gear without getting in the way? If I anyone can correct me feel free but that would be extremely difficult (if possible) to make by today's standards. I think they only have basic bombs, but then again maneuver gear must take a lot of work to create.

    Also, it wouldn't help the soldiers moral at all, having bombs on you designed to go off.

  7. #52
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member
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    Re: PIS and eternal sunsets.

    Quote Originally Posted by epictoads View Post
    I'm no expert either but that seems to be really pushing the tech they have to convenient levels. A bomb in a big Titan stomach would have to destroy 5m or so of flesh to give enough damage to the nape, which is unrealistic for a small explosive at that time (or even modern grenades). Plus I doubt they have the chemical tech to make a bomb that wouldn't explode on a hot day or in a close fight with a Titan, but would explode inside a Titan (which is hot but not THAT much hotter, there would need to be a few hundred degrees of temperature difference for it to have a chance). And the bomb would have to be stable as well or they would blow up troops every 5 minutes, which it wouldn't be if it exploded from a small temp change (the exact temperature of Titans isn't stated but I don't think it could be any more than 50 degrees at the max). And to have a bomb small enough to strap to maneuver gear without getting in the way? If I anyone can correct me feel free but that would be extremely difficult (if possible) to make by today's standards. I think they only have basic bombs, but then again maneuver gear must take a lot of work to create.

    Also, it wouldn't help the soldiers moral at all, having bombs on you designed to go off.
    I thought so. However, I think it would help the soldier's morale, because many die and without "being useful to humanity". With bombs they would at least know that they would at least kill a Titan, knowing that they may have saved somebody else's life. If not, well 1 Titan less to worry about.

  8. #53
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    Re: PIS and eternal sunsets.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOwl View Post
    I thought so. However, I think it would help the soldier's morale, because many die and without "being useful to humanity". With bombs they would at least know that they would at least kill a Titan, knowing that they may have saved somebody else's life. If not, well 1 Titan less to worry about.
    Assuming the bombs could be made, I don't think many troops would be pleased. From what we've seen, most of them aren't like "I want to have a noble death helping humanity" while dieing, they're the ones that go out terrified and screaming. And the thought of being a walking bomb wouldn't help them much.

  9. #54
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Yumpo's Avatar
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    Re: PIS and eternal sunsets.

    I think this is still relevant in the discussion since the OP did post it and wrote it as number 1....XD

    I think I have an idea why the important things happen on a sunset. It's not actually just the anime, but in the manga too(judging from the colored pages and covers). No, I don't think it has any logic behind it, but it's more of a symbolic concept for this manga. Have you guys noticed that everytime an arc ends, it's usually on a sunset?

    Trost Arc and the Female Titan Arc both ended on a sunset. So that means when the sun is finally setting, it signifies that the arc is about to reach its conclusion. Guess what is happening in the current manga arc? SUNSET. The arc is about to end! YAY!

    In short, Sunset=Arc about to end.

    This is just my guess though. XD

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  11. #55
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member Georgie's Avatar
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    Re: PIS and eternal sunsets.

    speaking of eternal sunsets....even Levi's spinoff cover has the sunset background

  12. #56
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: PIS and eternal sunsets.

    Quote Originally Posted by epictoads View Post
    Reason 1) The armored Titan could show up at any minute and smash the gate, they needed it sealed asap. You think they could of stopped him if he appeared/charged? The 'plan' would have been barricades and probably hundreds of canons which would do nothing, just like they had a 'plan' to seal the gate, and a 'plan' stop Titans getting in through the hole. Everyone (and defensibly Pixis) would know that their 'plan' would fail and they had no real defense. There is no way they could stop the armored or colossal Titans realistically without studying them properly. If they could stop him that would have made the armored Titan pointless.
    Late reply, I know. But screw it, I'm here.

    Them attempting to close the gate wouldn't change much. If the Armored Titan appeared at either times, they would be doomed. The plan to stop him wasn't a sure kill, but it's better than nothing. And by nothing, I mean the plan to retrieve Trost. If the Armored Titan showed up before initiating the plan to retrieve Trost, he would've breached the Inner Gate (assuming the plan to stop him fails), but there won't be much causalities. If he had showed up DURING the plan to retrieve Trost, almost all of the soldiers would die in vain and maybe even Eren would get killed, since he had such poor control over his Titan form at that time.

    Quote Quote:
    Reason 2) Eren has NEVER shown the ability to transform or move as a Titan at night. The only evidence that he can is that he's never tried it/failed. He's never tried to fly either so you never know. And at the point in time (Trost battle) no Titan had EVER shown to be able to move at night and it was general knowledge that they can't, so why would they think Eren could? So even if he could transform, Pixis and the crew would still logically assume he can't.
    Just because he never showed it, doesn't mean he can't.
    Spoiler show


    Since Eren is in fact a human, it's not far fetched for Pixis to assume he could move at night. It's not anymore riskier than betting everything on him being able to carry a boulder almost twice his size.

  13. #57
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    Re: PIS and eternal sunsets.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Late reply, I know. But screw it, I'm here.

    Them attempting to close the gate wouldn't change much. If the Armored Titan appeared at either times, they would be doomed. The plan to stop him wasn't a sure kill, but it's better than nothing. And by nothing, I mean the plan to retrieve Trost. If the Armored Titan showed up before initiating the plan to retrieve Trost, he would've breached the Inner Gate (assuming the plan to stop him fails), but there won't be much causalities. If he had showed up DURING the plan to retrieve Trost, almost all of the soldiers would die in vain and maybe even Eren would get killed, since he had such poor control over his Titan form at that time.



    Just because he never showed it, doesn't mean he can't.
    Spoiler show


    Since Eren is in fact a human, it's not far fetched for Pixis to assume he could move at night. It's not anymore riskier than betting everything on him being able to carry a boulder almost twice his size.
    I don't wanna sound like I'm being mean but this is getting stupid. It had been well established that TITANS CANNOT MOVE AT NIGHT. Eren's never tried to do it because they assume he can't (if he could, I'm sure Isayama would have had him do it by now). He's never tried to fly or teleport either because it's assumed he can't do that, I guess Pixis should risk thousands of lives betting that Eren can fly down to Wall Maria and seal it. Eren's Titan is like any other Titan just stronger, more agile etc hence why he can lift the boulder. He had already shown to be strong, not to have impossible abilities like moving at night.
    Spoiler show

    Pixis was doing the logical thing to seal the gate asap because the armored Titan could show up at any minute. The situation was already confusing as he should have shown up by now really. They didn't have a plan that would have stopped him. By 'preparing' the most they would do is put up barricades and canons. Should he have risked thousands of lives to save a few soldiers? You also realize that if the armored Titan breaches the gate most the soldiers right on the other side would die anyway? Along with thousands of innocents.

  14. #58
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: PIS and eternal sunsets.

    Quote Originally Posted by epictoads View Post
    I don't wanna sound like I'm being mean but this is getting stupid. It had been well established that TITANS CANNOT MOVE AT NIGHT. Eren's never tried to do it because they assume he can't (if he could, I'm sure Isayama would have had him do it by now). He's never tried to fly or teleport either because it's assumed he can't do that, I guess Pixis should risk thousands of lives betting that Eren can fly down to Wall Maria and seal it. Eren's Titan is like any other Titan just stronger, more agile etc hence why he can lift the boulder. He had already shown to be strong, not to have impossible abilities like moving at night.
    Spoiler show
    You're ignoring everything I say, why is that? Eren is not a Titan, he's a Titan shifter. He's different from the other Titans.
    Spoiler show


    Quote Quote:
    Pixis was doing the logical thing to seal the gate asap because the armored Titan could show up at any minute. The situation was already confusing as he should have shown up by now really. They didn't have a plan that would have stopped him. By 'preparing' the most they would do is put up barricades and canons. Should he have risked thousands of lives to save a few soldiers? You also realize that if the armored Titan breaches the gate most the soldiers right on the other side would die anyway? Along with thousands of innocents.
    You're ignoring what I say once again. You're just repeating yourself without listening (reading). If you're gonna argue like that, then might as well stop. As I keep saying, the Armored Titan's appearance is far more dangerous during Trost's retrieval. I even posted to you what will happen in case their plan failed, but you're clearly not reading my post at all.

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    Re: PIS and eternal sunsets.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    You're ignoring everything I say, why is that? Eren is not a Titan, he's a Titan shifter. He's different from the other Titans.
    Spoiler show




    You're ignoring what I say once again. You're just repeating yourself without listening (reading). If you're gonna argue like that, then might as well stop. As I keep saying, the Armored Titan's appearance is far more dangerous during Trost's retrieval. I even posted to you what will happen in case their plan failed, but you're clearly not reading my post at all.
    Spoiler show
    They knew NOTHING of shifters, all Pixis knew was that Eren can control a Titan. The only thing special about his Titan was extra physical power. It would be stupid for Pixis to risk thousands of lives on the basis that Eren's Titan was different and MIGHT have extra abilities. It's FAR BETTER to sacrifice many soldiers than risk countless lives.
    I'm repeating myself because you are not countering anything with actual points from the Manga.

    The armored Titan would almost certainly have broken the gate if he appeared, him appearing during the plan wouldn't have taken out that many extra troops compared to the number that would die if Wall Rose fell. Both Erwin and Pixis along with any other commander would have made the decision to retake Trost right then. In the situation, any number of the soldiers dieing was favorable to losing Wall Rose. If they knew that the armored Titan wasn't gonna show or had the power to stop him, they would probably have waited before sealing it, BUT THEY DIDN'T. Humanity's survival was resting on Wall Rose not falling, would you honestly risk that on the inconceivable-at-the-time idea that Eren's Titan can move at night? If so, you would make a poor commander.

    If Pixis somehow knew that Eren could move at night (even if he can, which is not even discussed yet in the Manga) it would be complete plot induced intelligence, Near/Death Note style. He had no reason to think "what if Eren can move at night?, let's bet everything on that fact!" just from knowing he can control a Titan when it was established for decades that they can't do that. If he assumed that he could, there's a whole list of abilities Titans don't have that Eren might (such as teleportation or flying). Sure, the idea of a human being a shifter was also inconceivable, but that doesn't mean anyone's gonna assume he can do a load of other stuff.
    Titans moving at night wouldn't have crossed anyone's minds until chapter 38 at Castle Utgard.

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