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The topic says it all. Think of all of the genuine sages in the series and how they access Sage Mode.
Naruto: Mastered Sage Mode, can absorb natural energy and balance it in record time.
Jiraiya: Can achieve Sage Mode, but requires Ma and Pa to aid with keeping natural energy.
Hashirama: Unknown, seems not to have any animal affiliation
Kabuto: Perfected Snake Sage Mode to become a dragon (the highest mastery of Snake Sage Mode), automatically absorbs natural energy thanks to Juugo's DNA. Given the necessary body through strengthening himself with Orochimaru's DNA as well as the Sound 4.
Now look at Sasuke as well as the experimentation Orochimaru did to him.
Has mastered CS, proving that he has mastered natural energy (atleast the kind that comes from Juugo).
Has Juugo's DNA inside of his body (the very same DNA that allows one to automatically absorb natural energy, much like Kabuto).
Is currently manipulating the natural energy being extended to him by Juugo, using it to power up his Susanoo (proving that combining natural energy with his chakra to create Senjutsu is within his power).
Has gained more and more strength the more he has gotten angry (he doesn't have a Senju class body, but he has mammoth chakra reserves amongst his clan and his strength only grows with more hatred).
Was stated to have made Juugo's chakra his own by Orochimaru
Now let's look at what is needed to be a full fledged Sage.
1: A large chakra reserve
2: The ability to sense natural energy.
3: Good enough chakra manipulation ability to mix natural, physical, and mental energies to make Sage Chakra.
Sasuke has all of these. So back to the original question: why can't Sasuke become a sage?
Wow. So sasuke can sense natural energy? And he had a large chakra reserve? Since when?
Why can't sasuke become a sage? It's the same as madara can't also become a sage despite having hashirama's DNA/power.
Sasuke was destined to awaken his rinnegan. So it's kinda ridiculous if kishi would give him the sage mode.
Don't be a greedy fan. sasuke's power is all about sharingan/doujutsu, while naruto's power is all about chakra/body. Wanting sasuke to have the sage mode is almost the same as wanting naruto to have the sharingan.
Well, if large chakra reserve and good enough chakra manipulation are enough to become a full fledged sage, then tobirama, tsunade or any uzumaki could become a sage.
Because he hasn't undergone any sort of senjutsu training at all.
The ability to sense natural energy? Quite simply, you can't use natural energy if you can't feel it, unless you're of Juugo's clan. Even then, Juugo can still feel the natural energy to some extent outside of his CS. It's how he speaks to animals. It's the absolute first step in achieving Sage Mode (remember what Naruto did with the oil?).Originally Posted by someguy0830
As for number 3, if it was involuntary he would go into Curse Seal without activating it of his own volition. It would work identical to Juugo's insanity: only happening when his body can no longer maintain the natural energy within him. Likewise, why do you keep ignoring that Orochimaru states Sasuke made the chakra his own?
So what you're saying is that what's happening in the current chapter (Sasuke syphoning Juugo's chakra to use the natural energy within it) is a complete fluke, and he had absolutely no idea it was possible until this exact moment?Originally Posted by Suzaku
The fact that he knew to what extent he could manipulate the natural energy, aswell as Orochimaru's flatout admittance that he had experience manipulating it back when he injected him is proof that he has indeed trained with natural energy (in the form of Juugo's chakra, which was laced with it).
Remember, Orochimaru had to kill a lot of people to get the seal working right, and there were all those psychos at the place Juugo was kept. Sasuke's seal is the product of many refinements to Juugo's ability.
Not really, because Sage Mode isn't a genetically received kekkei genkai. Anyone can be a sage provided they have the body for it. And there's more than one way to achieve it, as shown by Kabuto. I can't for the life of me figure out why Sage Mode is considered a Naruto exclusive jutsu.Originally Posted by marshall313
I think the problem here is that people, when they think of Sage Mode, keep thinking of the "legit" way of gaining it. Training for it. Kabuto trained for Sage Mode as well, but it's not what gave it to him, because he still needed the body, which he only received through experimentation. Sasuke has a body that's compatible with natural energy to the point that he can use Senjutsu, as shown in the recent chapter. His body is also far stronger than it was when Orochimaru first attempted the experiment. All he needs is a way to absorb the natural energy on his own (which should be the flesh Juugo placed in his chest a few hundred chapters ago).
---------- Post added at 05:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:00 AM ----------
Pein disagrees that you can't use natural energy if you can't sense it? Are you implying he used natural energy before despite being unable to sense it? I don't get what you're saying here.Originally Posted by someguy0830
Also, Naruto activates Sage Mode, which is different from being naturally in tune to natural energy. He also hasn't been a sage as long as Juugo has been in tune with nature.
...the seal that is no longer in Sasuke's body? The seal that Juugo doesn't have because his body has no seal that leads to his transformation, because it's a natural occurence for him? You can't give the Curse Seal this feat because Sasuke no longer has the Curse Seal.Quote:
Even wierder, Kabuto isn't the one gathering his natural energy either: his body does so automatically thanks to Juugo's DNA. So why can Kabuto use it to achieve Sage Mode, but the thought of Sasuke doing the same seems so hard to accept?
Orochimaru flatout says that before, he injected Sasuke with some of Juugo's chakra, and he made it his own. He says that that is the reason he's capable of performing the same feat again here, because he had already done it once before with his body. The only difference is that now he's doing it with his Susanoo. You could blame the previous event on his access to the Curse Seal, but not this one because, as stated before, he no longer has the Curse Seal. Juugo is giving Sasuke his chakra. And Sasuke is using it to give his Susanoo Senjutsu properties. This could not be done if Sasuke had not previously learned to "make Juugo's chakra his own." The training is done. He's already learned to manipulate the Senjutsu transformation obtained via the Curse Seal. That is controlling natural energy.Quote:
Right. Except he no longer has the seal. He no longer has the tool that forceably pumps his body with natural energy and transforms him into his CS form. So how does he do it now without the Curse Seal? Juugo gives him the natural energy. But he's just giving it to him. Sasuke has to manipulate it (unless you're capable of proving Juugo can activate Sasuke's Susanoo for him).Quote:
Even back when he had the CS Sasuke needed to learn to manipulate it lest his will be corroded, so even then when he had the CS "automatically" controlling the natural energy for him, he was still repressing it's mind controlling side effect. No matter how you want to look at it, the natural energy of the CS was Sasuke's to control. As it is again here.
No. Sasuke using natural energy does though. And would you look at that! He's using it in the current chapter. He even used it years ago during one of Orochimaru's experiments. So there you go. I don't know how you plan to prove one can use natural energy without knowing what it is (as in, sensing it during it's application, as we both know what happens when you get too much of it), since creating senjutsu still requires chakra control and balancing of energies... you'd have to figure out some way to segue right past the rules of chakra control to think up a way for Sasuke to use jutsu with natural energy in it without actually creating the jutsu himself. And his Susanoo is exclusive to him, so I'm not sure you can find away to blame Senjutsu Susanoo on Juugo.Quote:
I feel like people are thinking Orochimaru's words don't represent a different experiment, but rather the one moment when Sasuke first recieved the CS. And that would be the mistake that's throwing everyone off.
Last edited by ninjabot; September 27, 2013 at 12:29 AM.
Sasuke cannot sense natural energy. Even though the CS used to make him some form of sage he never really displayed anything which suggested he understood what natural energy is. Even recently he didn't know anything about it at all until he heard what everyone was talking about. As far as a large chakra reserve goes, who knows. He was able to abuse his MS before getting the EMS and we know for a fact doing that is considerably taxing on the body. Kakashi has a very limited use of his kamui and itachi while he was alive got tired very quickly from using his eyes as far as we saw. Getting the EMS apparently reduced the strain all these techniques have on sasuke though. I guess a case can be made for sasuke having quite a bit of chakra but at this stage talking about a massive chakra reserve seems to be a bit much IMO.I guess it depends on the kind of sage he can become. Its more likely that he becomes a variation of what jugo is rather than a sage like naruto.
As for Kabuto, there's a big difference between him and Sasuke, and that's the simple fact that Kabuto actually knows how to use Sage Mode. He is using Juugo's DNA to get around the movement restriction, but nevertheless he knows how to mix and control that energy. Sasuke does not.
As for Susanoo, Sasuke/Sasuke's Susanoo might as well be the same thing where compatibility is concerned. Theoretically, Juugo could grab Sasuke and upgrade him to CS2 directly. Instead he's funneling his chakra into Susanoo and that gets the upgrade.
Sasuke seemed suprised that Juugo had mastered Sage Mode, not that it existed.Originally Posted by kkck
Though it's my mistake for not specifying, I'm still referring to a Sage like Kabuto, not Naruto.Quote:
So like I said: you can't use natural energy and not be able to sense it. Hungry Ghost realm wasn't using Naruto's natural energy. He was absorbing it. And that's not arguing semantics.Originally Posted by someguy0830
If you could even begin to prove that that has anything to do with being able to manipulate natural energy now, then yeah. You don't retain abilities you've lost. If he did, he could activate CS on his Susanoo without needing Juugo's aid. So... you're flatout wrong on this one.Quote:
Then you agree with me that the reason he's capable of manipulating natural energy is because he's had experience doing so before, thanks to the CS? That's what I'm getting at: Sasuke's compatibility with the natural energy in Juugo's chakra is thanks to the mastery of the CS that he gained through the training prior to this moment in the manga. The reason he was capable of recieving Juugo's flesh during the fight with Bee is also only possible thanks to the CS mastery he accrued in the past. He has tons of experience with natural energy. You can't say he has no experience manipulating natural energy, and then use his experience manipulating natural energy as proof that he can't manipulate natural energy.Quote:
If he did not, he could not control his Curse Seal to the level that he could use partial transformations, and completely negate the will corrosion effect. Keep in mind I'm not saying he can go straight into Sage Mode from right now. Just that he has all the tools ready to do so. If someone told him in the next chapter how to do it, it wouldn't take him a year or two to do it. He could do it in this very fight, as he has steady access to natural energy, a (most likely) strong enough body, and experience manipulating natural energy.Quote:
If Sasuke never had control over natural energy, then the CS activations would be automatic, and he could not do partial transformations. Juugo's chakra is laced with natural energy, that's why adding it to Sasuke allowed him to give his Susanoo senjutsu properties. If Sasuke could not manipulate natural energy, his Susanoo would just be a plain Susanoo right now.Quote:
I don't think he intentionally made it, I think it naturally came from the combination of he and Juugo's chakra... just like with his own CS, since it is also a combination of he and Juugo's chakra. Sasuke's CS manifests as flames and a tengu like nose tatoo thing. Juugo's manifests as blocks. If Juugo had simply been imposing his chakra on the Susanoo and transforming it on his own, it would take on Juugo's transformation look, not Sasuke's.Quote:
If it transforms to level 2 next chapter, it'll have wings. Thanks to Sasuke.
The energy is what drives the insanity/loss of will. He had to overcome it or else he'd lose to it. Having a strong will helps you overcome hardships sure, but I don't see it helping you overcome mind control. How many people have you seen break out of Tsukuyomi just because they really really wanted to be out of it?Quote:
Sasuke didn't know the seal used natural energy when he got it. He still used it. Sasuke didn't know it used natural energy until long after he lost it. Sasuke isn't the one gathering the energy, or even mixing it. That's being done for him.
I'm not sure Juugo has enough natural energy in his body for such a transformation. Having enough energy in his body to transform Sasuke is easily doable, but enough to transform a giant Susanoo? How strong do you think Juugo is?Quote:
Translation, quite simply:Quote:
When he injects Juugo's chakra into Sasuke. Not when he applies the Curse Seal (which is a combination of Orochimaru and Juugo's chakras). He even states that Sasuke was able to release the CS's power just from having Juugo's chakra placed in him. This is why I say he manipulates the natural energy on his own, because he was able to use the CS's power with Juugo as the catalyst, not the seal. This is how he knew that his Susanoo could do the same (use Juugo's chakra to activate the CS without actually having the CS). Because he did it once with his body as well.
I don't think he has a large enough chakra pool. I mean, by general standards he has one, but not in Sage's point of view, not yet at least.
Or maybe he wasn't introduced to the concept of attaining sage mode?
Well, orochimaru right now is like a father to sasuke. So anything would be possible right now.
I'd say there's no reason why Sasuke should be incapable of learning sage mode if he sets his mind to it other then if Kishimoto doesn't want him to.