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Thread: Revolutionary Brigade VS MS Winners Group

  1. #16
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Hardy's Avatar
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    Re: Revolutionary Brigade VS MS Winners Group

    No.. he doesn't. When Fuji played against Tezuka! Niou, the latter didn't seem to need all of his moves to beat Fuji... I'd say he doesn't even need any of them. His stats are better, his rally is just better too, we already know he's good enough to return the first 5 counters. 6th counter only works if the opponent barely returns the 5th, but if Tezuka! Niou did it easily, then the real Tezuka should do the same. And if he wants to win faster, he could just spam ZZS and Phantom.

  2. #17
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Revolutionary Brigade VS MS Winners Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardy View Post
    No.. he doesn't. When Fuji played against Tezuka! Niou, the latter didn't seem to need all of his moves to beat Fuji... I'd say he doesn't even need any of them. His stats are better, his rally is just better too, we already know he's good enough to return the first 5 counters. 6th counter only works if the opponent barely returns the 5th, but if Tezuka! Niou did it easily, then the real Tezuka should do the same. And if he wants to win faster, he could just spam ZZS and Phantom.
    Tezuka himself has never returned any of the counters, he has only seen it done. When Fuji played Tezuka!Niou, he didn't use the 6th counter until the end of the match, so either he didn't have it at first or he didn't need it, either way, a match with 6th counter vs ZSS and Phantom would come down to whether tezukas arm would give out first or whether he broke the counter first, and how much 4th counter would disrupt Phantom. And 6th counter only worked that way back then, who knows how it would work now or how he would set it up, and he might even have some new counters now, or improved versions of 4-6
    Spamming ZSS and Phantom would destroy his arm, and as proved against Sanada, still won't guarantee victory
    The stats aren't always telling, since all of the MSERS 12-19 (except maybe kintaru) had worse stats than the HSERS they beat, and so did atobe and niou when
    they won 9 and 10

    Unless Tezuka wants to lose his arm, then he can't just ZSS and Phantom a victory, he has to break all of Fuji's counters, and hope that Fuji's stats are correct(since so far no one has been able to get true data on Fuji, even his own teammates, and other players are really stronger than their stats, this is doubtful), so unless Fuji is assumed to have no new moves, and now his data is all of a sudden easy to gather, and that Tezuka's arm no longer hurts from ZSS and Phantom and he can return the 6th counter(which no one has done) easily, it's hard to say either one of them would beat the other, all we know is that they can both break many of the other's best moves, but Fuji doesn't have to risk his arm to use any of his moves

    Nationals: Sanada>Tezuka, Sanada>Niou, Fuji>Niou, Fuji ? Tezuka
    Last edited by redhairSH; October 01, 2013 at 11:26 AM.

  3. #18
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    Re: Revolutionary Brigade VS MS Winners Group

    There is no reason why the conditions for Hoshi Hanabi would have changed. Even when the triple counter evolved, the situations in which they were used stayed the same.

  4. #19
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    Re: Revolutionary Brigade VS MS Winners Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    There is no reason why the conditions for Hoshi Hanabi would have changed. Even when the triple counter evolved, the situations in which they were used stayed the same.
    Higuma Otoshi's biggest weakness was that someone with enough power could break through it, so when he evolved it he fixed this by using two hands, so he could handle more power, he might have found a way for Hoshi Hanabi to not need to be hit from a cord ball

    You're also assuming that Tezuka can return the 5th counter without a cord ball, which we don't know

    Earlier in the series, when a team had sealed off one of Fuji's counters by hitting a ball with no spin, didn't he force them to hit cord balls so that the ball would have the spin he needed?

    the 6th counter has only been seen once, Fuji never said that it needed to come from the 5th counter

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    Re: Revolutionary Brigade VS MS Winners Group

    Quote Originally Posted by redhairSH View Post
    Higuma Otoshi's biggest weakness was that someone with enough power could break through it, so when he evolved it he fixed this by using two hands, so he could handle more power, he might have found a way for Hoshi Hanabi to not need to be hit from a cord ball
    And yet it was still a counter against smashes. Hoshi Hanabi being a counter against cord balls isn't a weakness in itself like Higuma Otoshi being unstable against certain types of smashes is.

    Quote Originally Posted by redhairSH View Post
    Earlier in the series, when a team had sealed off one of Fuji's counters by hitting a ball with no spin, didn't he force them to hit cord balls so that the ball would have the spin he needed?
    Anime-only. Against Rokkaku he created some extra spin on his own, although that wasn't quite enough to completely replicate the real Tsubame Gaeshi.

  6. #21
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    Re: Revolutionary Brigade VS MS Winners Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    And yet it was still a counter against smashes. Hoshi Hanabi being a counter against cord balls isn't a weakness in itself like Higuma Otoshi being unstable against certain types of smashes is.



    Anime-only. Against Rokkaku he created some extra spin on his own, although that wasn't quite enough to completely replicate the real Tsubame Gaeshi.
    The main weakness about activating it was gone
    Hoshi Hanabi isn't a counter against cord balls, it's a counter that was only used once and that one time it was against a cord ball, the one who said the technique was used with a cord ball wasn't Fuji, so he might be able to use it against different shots
    Last edited by redhairSH; October 01, 2013 at 12:10 PM.

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    Re: Revolutionary Brigade VS MS Winners Group

    From what I remember, almost no moves are explained by the character that uses them, so while there is some room for doubt, it's not exactly a major point against the explanation.

  8. #23
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    Re: Revolutionary Brigade VS MS Winners Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    From what I remember, almost no moves are explained by the character that uses them, so while there is some room for doubt, it's not exactly a major point against the explanation.
    You're right. The reason Hoshi Hanabi works is because it erases the ball from the players field of vision. One can only do that when the shot is very close to the net and hidden by the net so the opponent doesn't know when or where he has hit it. Otherwise it would just be an explosive lob.

    Also Tezuka's Hyaruken would work on the fifth counter. making Fuji forced to use the fourth counter many times. We know Tezuka is able to use Hyaruken for tsubame gaishi and if he doesn't smash hirin otoshi is useless.

    Thereby unless Tezuka is incapable of returning cord balls from closed eyes Fuji, Fuji would most likely lose to Tezuka without TnK (as he would try to avoid hitting any cord balls).

    Tezuka has been able to see through moves after only seeing them be countered by others. Kamikamushi was countered by Tachibana Tezuka saw this and was able to apply it to his match.

    He can use Niou's ways of countering Fuji's counters to defeat fuji. Tezuka is better in every given stat by at least one point. Therefore if Tezuka seals Fuji's counters, Tezuka will win. Tezuka would definitely take the match without TnK.

  9. #24
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    Post Re: Revolutionary Brigade VS MS Winners Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    From what I remember, almost no moves are explained by the character that uses them, so while there is some room for doubt, it's not exactly a major point against the explanation.
    The Hoshi Hanabi is only for Cord Balls honestly.
    It was created to Counter the way people may counter the 5thCounter.

    Since it takes high technique to beat 5thCounter cleanly, the vast majority of MSers with Technique below 4 or 4 and under most likely, will end up hitting Cordballs when they hit 5thCounter back.
    Which leads to instant death since 6thCounter is unreturnable.
    Since if Fuji could use Hoshi Hanabi normally, then it would be a spammable move.
    Since Fuji is able to spam all of his special shots, and if Fuji could spam 6thCounter in theory he should be G10 no questions asked.
    Luckily, he can't spam it.

    Quote Originally Posted by floman View Post
    You're right. The reason Hoshi Hanabi works is because it erases the ball from the players field of vision. One can only do that when the shot is very close to the net and hidden by the net so the opponent doesn't know when or where he has hit it. Otherwise it would just be an explosive lob.
    Nothing to do with the ball being hidden from the players eyes. Never been mentioned.
    Its part of the lob that does the illusion effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by floman View Post
    Also Tezuka's Hyaruken would work on the fifth counter. making Fuji forced to use the fourth counter many times. We know Tezuka is able to use Hyaruken for tsubame gaishi and if he doesn't smash Kirin otoshi is useless.
    It'll be extremely hard to win and never use smases, but Tezuka has TZ so he can smash whenever he wants. Since the ball will get drawn into his reach again.

    Quote Originally Posted by floman View Post
    Thereby unless Tezuka is incapable of returning cord balls from closed eyes Fuji, Fuji would most likely lose to Tezuka without TnK (as he would try to avoid hitting any cord balls).
    Tezuka has been able to see through moves after only seeing them be countered by others. Kamikamushi was countered by Tachibana Tezuka saw this and was able to apply it to his match.
    Kamikakushi doesn't compare to the combination of CE+Cordball though.
    When in CE, Fuji can hit the ball with only weaker shots so that the DoubledReturn isn't effective.
    This is an abiility pretty much all skilled players can do. Hyakku Ren's effect can be avoided as long as you don't hit powerful shots.

    Tezuka has ZSS and Tphantom to take points from Fuji since Saiki can't work either. However I can see CE+Cordball breaking TPhantom.
    It would be an extremely close match if we take Tezuka without TnK.


    He can use Niou's ways of countering Fuji's counters to defeat fuji. Tezuka is better in every given stat by at least one point. Therefore if Tezuka seals Fuji's counters, Tezuka will win. Tezuka would definitely take the match without TnK.

  10. #25
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Hardy's Avatar
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    Re: Revolutionary Brigade VS MS Winners Group

    Quote Originally Posted by redhairSH View Post
    The main weakness about activating it was gone
    Hoshi Hanabi isn't a counter against cord balls, it's a counter that was only used once and that one time it was against a cord ball, the one who said the technique was used with a cord ball wasn't Fuji, so he might be able to use it against different shots
    http://www.mangareader.net/422-27261...apter-364.html

  11. #26
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    Re: Revolutionary Brigade VS MS Winners Group

    Guys, I'm pretty sure redhair's argument is that since it was someone other than Fuji who explained the move, it may not have been the full explanation and thus it'd be possible for Hoshi Hanabi to be useable in other situations. Linking that page and reiterating what's said on it is no direct counter argument there.

  12. #27
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Hardy's Avatar
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    Re: Revolutionary Brigade VS MS Winners Group

    Has Tezuka ever explained Phantom and Zone himself before? What about every single Counter Fuji has, has he explained all of them?

    More than half of the techs we've seen so far are explained by other people, I dunno why it should be an exception now.

  13. #28
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    Re: Revolutionary Brigade VS MS Winners Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardy View Post
    Has Tezuka ever explained Phantom and Zone himself before? What about every single Counter Fuji has, has he explained all of them?

    More than half of the techs we've seen so far are explained by other people, I dunno why it should be an exception now.
    What do you think why I answered with this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    From what I remember, almost no moves are explained by the character that uses them, so while there is some room for doubt, it's not exactly a major point against the explanation.
    That said, Tezuka has indeed given an explanation for Zone and Phantom. http://www.mangareader.net/422-27246...apter-349.html

  14. #29
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    Re: Revolutionary Brigade VS MS Winners Group

    Funny, I thought it was Inui.

    Yeah.... I totally skipped that comment apparently, sorry about that.

  15. #30
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    Re: Revolutionary Brigade VS MS Winners Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    Guys, I'm pretty sure redhair's argument is that since it was someone other than Fuji who explained the move, it may not have been the full explanation and thus it'd be possible for Hoshi Hanabi to be useable in other situations. Linking that page and reiterating what's said on it is no direct counter argument there.
    That is pretty much what I meant, especially since it's a move that was only used once, fuji could have also upgraded it like he did for his first 3 counters

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