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Thread: Revolutionary Brigade VS MS Winners Group

  1. #31
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Revolutionary Brigade VS MS Winners Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    Kamikakushi doesn't compare to the combination of CE+Cordball though.
    When in CE, Fuji can hit the ball with only weaker shots so that the DoubledReturn isn't effective.
    This is an abiility pretty much all skilled players can do. Hyakku Ren's effect can be avoided as long as you don't hit powerful shots.

    Tezuka has ZSS and Tphantom to take points from Fuji since Saiki can't work either. However I can see CE+Cordball breaking TPhantom.
    It would be an extremely close match if we take Tezuka without TnK.
    Phantom and Zone can be broken by the fourth counter.

    If he uses the cord balls then yes Hyaruken would be less effective. If Fuji chose to use his other counters Hyaruken would be more than effective. Also Tezuka is the king of making his opponents run from corner to corner. Tezuka has better stamina than fuji. In terms of mental strength Tezuka is better, Fuji will originally be intimidated by the fact that he is playing against Tezuka. The real Tezuka won't drop the first three games like Niou did.

  2. #32
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Brandnewkid's Avatar
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    Re: Revolutionary Brigade VS MS Winners Group

    Tezuka is just better than Fuji. That's all it really boils down to.

  3. #33
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    Re: Revolutionary Brigade VS MS Winners Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandnewkid View Post
    Tezuka is just better than Fuji. That's all it really boils down to.
    Overall, he is, especially with PoP, but we haven't seen much of Fuji so far, by the time he gets screen time again he might have caught up

  4. #34
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member LetalHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Revolutionary Brigade VS MS Winners Group

    Quote Originally Posted by floman View Post
    Phantom and Zone can be broken by the fourth counter.

    If he uses the cord balls then yes Hyaruken would be less effective. If Fuji chose to use his other counters Hyaruken would be more than effective. Also Tezuka is the king of making his opponents run from corner to corner. Tezuka has better stamina than fuji. In terms of mental strength Tezuka is better, Fuji will originally be intimidated by the fact that he is playing against Tezuka. The real Tezuka won't drop the first three games like Niou did.
    Base Tezuka! has overall better stats than Fuji, so he won't need just PoP to win. Houou Gaeshi, Kirin... he would break them all one by one like Niou did. With Zone the first evolved triple counters are useless. Then the fourth counter, Tezuka will shit on that, and also on Hecatoncheries. Fuji's sixth counter is the only one that will really give him trouble, but eventually Tezuka will definitely return it. How much time I don't know but he could just go PoP and say: "screw this, it's winning time" and win instantly.

    Even with no PoP, Tezuka would bagel Fuji. With PoP, Fuji would be slaughtered.

  5. #35
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    Re: Revolutionary Brigade VS MS Winners Group

    Quote Originally Posted by LetalHawk View Post
    Base Tezuka! has overall better stats than Fuji, so he won't need just PoP to win. Houou Gaeshi, Kirin... he would break them all one by one like Niou did. With Zone the first evolved triple counters are useless. Then the fourth counter, Tezuka will shit on that, and also on Hecatoncheries. Fuji's sixth counter is the only one that will really give him trouble, but eventually Tezuka will definitely return it. How much time I don't know but he could just go PoP and say: "screw this, it's winning time" and win instantly.

    Even with no PoP, Tezuka would bagel Fuji. With PoP, Fuji would be slaughtered.
    I agree with your premise but I disagree when you say the fourth counter will be useless. It is the same thing as Sanada's Rin. It would break the Tezuka Zone and Tezuka phantom. Even without those it would come to base skill like you said and Tezuka destroys.

  6. #36
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member LetalHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Revolutionary Brigade VS MS Winners Group

    Quote Originally Posted by floman View Post
    I agree with your premise but I disagree when you say the fourth counter will be useless. It is the same thing as Sanada's Rin. It would break the Tezuka Zone and Tezuka phantom. Even without those it would come to base skill like you said and Tezuka destroys.
    I didn't say that fourth counter won't break Zone or Phantom. You just said it yourself, base Tezuka can perfectly return fourth counter, if Tezuka!Niou did, the real Tezuka who's much stronger will definitely break it. Then it will be an onslaught and Fuji is overwhelmed.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member -Ken-'s Avatar
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    Re: Revolutionary Brigade VS MS Winners Group

    Fuji slaughter Niou! Tezuka at the end. Niou! Tezuka doesn't appear to be able to win a single point. Certainly, right now, it's a different story that Niou got some upgrade. But anyways, it does shows that Fuji >>>>>>>> National Niou Tezuka, for what its worth.
    Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

    If you knows you're on my ignore list and you quote my post, there's high chance I would ignore you. Or answer you and not look at your response.

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  10. #38
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    Re: Revolutionary Brigade VS MS Winners Group

    Quote Originally Posted by floman View Post
    Fuji will originally be intimidated by the fact that he is playing against Tezuka. The real Tezuka won't drop the first three games like Niou did.
    Nevermind the first 3 games, Tezuka can't lose a service game with ZSS.
    But Fuji and his 4thCounter stops any TZ or TPHantom since it completely neutralizes all spin.
    And 4thCounter is a lob, so Tezuka will try and smash and end up with a Kirin Otoshi to deal with.

    Its not as clear cut as people think. I say Tezuka 7-5 Fuji.
    With TnK, then as we've already been shown, Tezuka stomps.

  11. #39
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    Re: Revolutionary Brigade VS MS Winners Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    And 4thCounter is a lob, so Tezuka will try and smash and end up with a Kirin Otoshi to deal with.
    Kagero isn't a lob. Also Tezuka can use Zone against Kirin Otoshi.

  12. #40
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    Re: Revolutionary Brigade VS MS Winners Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    Nevermind the first 3 games, Tezuka can't lose a service game with ZSS.
    But Fuji and his 4thCounter stops any TZ or TPHantom since it completely neutralizes all spin.
    And 4thCounter is a lob, so Tezuka will try and smash and end up with a Kirin Otoshi to deal with.

    Its not as clear cut as people think. I say Tezuka 7-5 Fuji.
    With TnK, then as we've already been shown, Tezuka stomps.
    Tezuka can't lose a service game with ZSS, but he can't serve a whole game with it, if he could he would have won against Sanada, it puts too much strain on his arm, especially if he tries to use phantom during the match as well

    Tezuka definitely has the better chance of winning since his base stats are higher, he most likely would win even without PoP, but that still depends on whether he can break 6th counter, and how long he can use ZSS for before his arm gives out

  13. #41
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    Re: Revolutionary Brigade VS MS Winners Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    Kagero isn't a lob. Also Tezuka can use Zone against Kirin Otoshi.
    So he just used it as a lob then?
    Since Tezuka!Niou lifted his arm to hit it when he pivoted to the side iirc.
    Wasn't it a lob against Hirakoba?

    Quote Originally Posted by redhairSH View Post
    Tezuka definitely has the better chance of winning since his base stats are higher, he most likely would win even without PoP, but that still depends on whether he can break 6th counter, and how long he can use ZSS for before his arm gives out
    He can break 5thCounter perfectly, so he wouldn't have to meet 6thCounter luckily.

  14. #42
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    Re: Revolutionary Brigade VS MS Winners Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    So he just used it as a lob then?
    Since Tezuka!Niou lifted his arm to hit it when he pivoted to the side iirc.
    Wasn't it a lob against Hirakoba?
    Well it's like head height, so you gotta raise your arm a bit when returning it at the net, but calling it a lob is a bit much in my opinion.
    http://www.mangareader.net/422-27213...apter-316.html
    http://www.mangareader.net/422-27259...apter-362.html
    You can't really tell what height it has when he uses it against Higa.

  15. #43
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    Re: Revolutionary Brigade VS MS Winners Group

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    Fuji slaughter Niou! Tezuka at the end. Niou! Tezuka doesn't appear to be able to win a single point. Certainly, right now, it's a different story that Niou got some upgrade. But anyways, it does shows that Fuji >>>>>>>> National Niou Tezuka, for what its worth.
    I agree with this. The only difference I see between National!Niou!Tezuka and National!Tezuka is that the latter have better stats and can use ZSS.

    I don't know why it's hard to swallow to say that National!Fuji can contend with National!Tezuka.

    -Tezuka can counter every single one of Fuji's counters bar Hoshi Hanabi (except Hoshi Hanabi's requirement is a cord ball which usually is the result of returning the fifth counter but Tezuka can perfectly return the fifth counter so no cord ball, no 6th counter).

    -Fuji can counter almost all of Tezuka's techniques.
    -Hyakuren was countered by using weak and precise shot iirc.
    -Saiki was countered by CE.
    -Tezuka Zone was countered by CE plus cord balls.
    -Tezuka Phantom can be countered by the fourth counter, it countered a Hyakuren enhanced Tsubame Gaeshi I don't think it's far fetched for it to at least weaken the spin of TP to make the ball in if not outright cancel the spin.

    With that;
    -Tezuka will only be left with higher base stats and ZSS (which he can't spam the whole set iirc.)
    -Fuji will be left with CE (and if Kirihara's stat went from 15 to 20.5 by entering SDM then CE should also provide a boost in Fuji's overall stats, diminishing Tezuka's superiority if not outright even it out) and unpredictable cord balls.

    When it comes down to it, Fuji out-rallied National!Niou!Tezuka and Tezuka has better stats than Niou so really it's anyone's game. Fuji might even use an improvise 6th counter (e.g. an improvised Tsubame Gaeshi against Rokkaku) by providing the necessary spin that is usually provided by the cord ball.

    So really National!Fuji vs National!Tezuka is neck to neck, and no it's not a bagel for Tezuka.
    Of course if we're talking about now then Fuji has no chance until he get the spotlight to see his improvement, POP will cream him.

  16. #44
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Hardy's Avatar
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    Re: Revolutionary Brigade VS MS Winners Group

    ZSS, ZS, higher stats > CE and cordballs, at least imo

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    Fuji slaughter Niou! Tezuka at the end. Niou! Tezuka doesn't appear to be able to win a single point. Certainly, right now, it's a different story that Niou got some upgrade. But anyways, it does shows that Fuji >>>>>>>> National Niou Tezuka, for what its worth.
    That only happenned when he realised he was playing against an Illuison though, before that Tezuka! Niou was raping Fuji (and he wasn't even able to hit ZSS).

    I dunno, Fuji might take some games, but it the end I still see Tezuka winning with a 6-2 or something like that.

  17. #45
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    Re: Revolutionary Brigade VS MS Winners Group

    Fuji is not nearly as unconditionally powerful as some of the other characters. For example Tanegashima, Sanada, and Fuji all have techniques that supposedly nullifies the opponent's technique but there is definitely a descending order of whether they can actually nullify any technique they face. It wouldn't surprise me if 4th counter simply doesn't work on Tezuka Phantom because Tezuka is higher tier than Fuji. But even if he could stop Phantom, it really doesn't matter. Using the last available reference point at Nationals (Fuji has shown absolutely nothing since then), the only thing Niou can't handle was Closed Eyes. Despite the supposed action, you can infer he went up 5-1 once he turned into Tezuka (started down 0-3, was ahead 5-4 when Fuji used CE). Since the real Tezuka can at least win an entire game with ZSS, he'd obviously win in the similar situation. There's no indication that Fuji has any way to reliably score on Niou, let alone Tezuka, outside of Closed Eyes.

    ---------- Post added at 06:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:24 PM ----------

    In the Nationals game Fuji talked about his sixth counter, and Kirihara said Fuji is trying to trick the trickster. But the point is that Fuji did trick the trickster, by convincing Niou to stop turning into Tezuka. We know his Closed Eyes effect ran out (it seems to be strictly beneficial for him, so there's no reason for him to not use it). We can see Niou, as Tezuka, can pretty much deal with all 5 counters easily. In particular Niou as Tezuka does not need to hit a cord ball to return the 5th counter, which is likely Fuji's best move, so it'll seal his 6th counter at the same time while rendering his best move useless. Intuitively, it shouldn't be hard to figure that staying as Tezuka is probably a safer bet than turning into Shiraishi unless you somehow thought Shiraishi was on the same tier as Tezuka. Yes Niou did drop a game to Fuji without CE, but he also won 5, so the odds are likely in his favor even though he's down 5-6 at that point.

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