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Thread: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    No he stated that he is Captain Commander for such a long time, since he is the strongest one, thus it's obvious that the one who is currently the strongest becomes the Captain Commander. And Yama himself nominated Shunsui. So it's obvious that Shunsui is stronger than Unohana, since according to Yama the one who is the strongest should be chosen as a CC. So I don't get how this simple thing can be ridiculous. People may like it or not.

    P.S. Actually. in the first Databook Kubo divided Captains by combat ability as well and there Shunsui was the third after Yama and Aizen and Unohana only forth.

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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    I don't really get why people try to find all those excuses about Aizen always using Kyoka Suigetsu to take down Captains. Actually for the most part he wasn't using it, because if it was otherwise then Ichigo would have reacted earlier, but he didn't... Also Gin's remark, that even without Kyoka Suigetsu Aizen is a monster.
    I know that people tend to not trust Databooks, but in the first one Aizen was shown to be just after Yama in strength if we not count Zanpaktou. He was also able to stop Ichigo's Bankai back in SS Arc with two fingers, rape some Captains and Vaizard Captains in FKT Arc with just his pure physical strength and sword slashes. His Reiatsu was so overwhelming that he managed to put Grimjaw on his knees, so I don't get how he can be overrated?
    That Aizen is powerful is undeniable, but the reality remains that most of his feats are the result of KS. The only incidents in opposition to captains where KS, or the Hogyoku, didn't play a role was in his battle against Isshin, which was brief and Aizen and he appeared to be somewhat even in strength, and his handling of Ichigo in SS, when Ichigo wasn't at peak condition and wasn't much to talk about in terms of power. Aizen was above average, but I don't think he would've been able to handle the senior captains without KS. Aizen knew his limits, which is why he surrounded himself with an army and sought greater power. Even with KS, he chose to avoid a confrontation with Unohana. As for the talk of the databooks, we know what they show, we also know that some of those numbers just don't add up.

    Quote Quote:
    The one who is actually underrated by most of the users is Shunsui. For the God's sake! Yama himself mentioned that Captain Commander is the strongest Shinigami in Gotei and before going to die Yama chose Shunsui and not Unohana to be his sucsessor as a Captain Commander. That clearly shows that Shunsui is above Unohana in strength. I don't understand why people tend to ignore actual manga facts.
    As has been mentioned, Yama was referring to himself. There was only one CC, so that was the case. Shunsui might have been chosen for any number of reasons. No one is ignoring 'manga facts', it's simply that you've decided to take a comment made by Yama about himself in is position as CC and apply it to Shunsui. Shunsui's surprise at the promotion would suggest that the decision isn't as simple and obvious of a matter as you suggest. Also, I'm not sure if maybe I missed it, but where was it shown that Yamamoto chose Shunsui?

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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    It's here. It's Yama's message to Shunsui.
    http://www.mangareader.net/bleach/520/4
    http://www.mangareader.net/bleach/520/5
    And I don't get, where do you see Shunsui surprised. He was dissapointed, because he didn't want to bear even more responsibility than he has now. Still, the point stands. If Yama thinked that noone can take his place for now, because he is the strongest one, then if he appoints Shunsui, then he thinks that Shunsui is the strongest currently and thus is the best suited for the position.
    Of course I applied it to Shunsui, since it's logical. The CC is the strongest Shinigami and if Shunsui is the one, then he was promoted to the position.
    Also again, even Kubo in first Databook put Shunsui above Unohana in terms of combat abilities, so it's not that I'm interpreting facts as I want.

    And about Aizen... I think we just see the manga differently, but it's obvious that he didn't use Kyoka Suigetsu all the time. The only time he actually was shown to do it was when he put Hinamori in his place, but it seemed to be the only time. Because it was the only time Ichigo mentioned the fact that other Shiunigami did something wrong. All the other time it didn't seem that he used it. Aizen's words to Shinji were just a troll. It was mostly because of fear to be trolled by Kyoka Suigetsu that Aizen managed to distract Captains and make them be seriously afraid and cautious of him.

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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    I remember that letter, I simply don't know where it's shown that Yamamoto wrote it, or had anything to do with for that matter.

    Quote Quote:
    And I don't get, where do you see Shunsui surprised. He was dissapointed, because he didn't want to bear even more responsibility than he has now. Still, the point stands. If Yama thinked that noone can take his place for now, because he is the strongest one, then if he appoints Shunsui, then he thinks that Shunsui is the strongest currently and thus is the best suited for the position.
    Of course I applied it to Shunsui, since it's logical. The CC is the strongest Shinigami and if Shunsui is the one, then he was promoted to the position.
    Also again, even Kubo in first Databook put Shunsui above Unohana in terms of combat abilities, so it's not that I'm interpreting facts as I want.
    Surprises might've been the wrong choice, but it was unexpected. Aside from the fact that I'm still not sure where it's shown that Yamamoto appointed him, Shunsui could've been appointed for any number of reasons. Ukitake was out of the picture because of illness, and Unohana might've been deemed inappropriate because of her current position within the Gotei 13, or because of her somewhat violent past. Simply applying the title of strongest to whosoever is appointed CC is arbitrary. Yama's statement stood because he was the strongest shinigami, and he was also the only person to ever hold the position of CC. And once again, the databook has a lot of stats, many of them are questionable, I choose to ignore them. Also, weren't Unohana's stats superior to Shunsui's in the databook. Shunsui only passes Unohana by the arbitrary combat ranking put forward by some that considers only three of the factors, rather than the total six. And using that ranking system Unohana was behind Byakuya, and equal to Hitsugaya. So putting forward the databook to support this argument seems kind of pointless.

    Quote Quote:
    And about Aizen... I think we just see the manga differently, but it's obvious that he didn't use Kyoka Suigetsu all the time. The only time he actually was shown to do it was when he put Hinamori in his place, but it seemed to be the only time. Because it was the only time Ichigo mentioned the fact that other Shiunigami did something wrong. All the other time it didn't seem that he used it. Aizen's words to Shinji were just a troll. It was mostly because of fear to be trolled by Kyoka Suigetsu that Aizen managed to distract Captains and make them be seriously afraid and cautious of him.
    Ichigo stared at that battle in confusion long before Hinamori appeared. And Aizen's words makes it clear about Aizen's use of KS. He wasn't trolling, the battle was effectively already over. Aizen used KS as much as he breathed during his battles.

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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by jaymizzo View Post

    No doubt that Shunsui is strong though, but simply saying he is the strongest after getting the CC spot IMO is ridiculous.


    Shunsui allowed Kenpachi to reach or atleast get close to his potential, he did not seem worried about Kenpachi being the strongest, only that one of them would live or die between Ken and Unohana.
    If Shunsui was not worried about being crushed like a bug, Yama sure as hell was not either
    .

    Regarding the first part of your post, ok then, care to explain WHY Shunsui got that position if its not because of his strength?

    Not saying I agree that he is the strongest current Captain there, just interested to see what you think on him getting that position since your shrugged of the notion of him being the most powerful Captain there.

    And as far as the second part of your post goes, I agree that Yama definitely was not "terrified" of Kenpachi and even if Kenpachi had reached his maximum potential I doubt he would squash Yama like a bug, but the difference between Yama training Kenpachi further to reach his potential and Shunsui allowing it is that obvious difference in the situation at hand that involves the latter, that is that Shunsui is in need of a powerful monster like Kenpachi to be at his strongest and is willing to risk him going on a rampage in the future, it does not mean that Shunsui is not worried about that possibility, its just that he has no choice at this point.

    Live for battle, enjoy every minute, death is the price u pay for a good battle, live to kill, no fear.
    by Kenpachi Zaraki
    . ("Discuss This" http://discussthis.freeforums.org/index.php

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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    I remember an interview of Kubo after the FKT arc that was posted on bleachasylum. There the questioner asked why Shunsui didn't use Bankai against Aizen and this is what Kubo answered.
    Quote Quote:
    Q2.京楽はなぜ卍解をしないのですか?本気を出せば藍染に勝てるかもしれないのに!
    A.春水の魅力は藍染を倒すことではなく、読者の皆に常に「卍解したら藍染より強いかも」と思 わせてくれる ところです

    Q. Why Kyouraku didn't go Bankai? If he get serious he might defeat Aizen!
    A. Shunsui's appeal is not to defeat Aizen. But I let the readers think that 「If he goes Bankai he might be stronger than Aizen」
    So yeah if Shunsui could defeat Shiigami Aizen then right now he is the strongest captain in SS.

    Besides that where was it stated that Yamajii was the only CC of the G13 til his death?Wasn't Yama-jii a CC for 1000 years and the G13 is 2000 years old.

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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by BaddAzzKenpachi74 View Post
    Regarding the first part of your post, ok then, care to explain WHY Shunsui got that position if its not because of his strength?

    Not saying I agree that he is the strongest current Captain there, just interested to see what you think on him getting that position since your shrugged of the notion of him being the most powerful Captain there.


    How about Shunsui was nominated for his cool head and tactical experience ? The only other serious candidates were Unohana and Ukitake. Ukitake has poor health, which makes him a bad choice. Unohana used to be a murderous psychopath, who one day decided to bury this side of her, going so far in the process as to refusing to fight ennemies she could have easily defeated (cf the Arrancar arc and the Execucio-whatever). When put into a situation where she would have had to fight, who's to say she wouldn't have reverted to her old self and gone berserk ?

    Besides, I'm pretty sure the nomination came from Central 46 and not Yama, I don't think he really anticipated his death would come before the crumbling of SS and the Gotei 13. And I wouldn't read too much into decisions made by Central 46, who should only have a vague idea the power of the senior captains.

    That being said, there is no doubt that Shunsui is very strong and the strongest besides Kenpachi and Unohana among the remaining captains.

  10. #38
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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    I'm sure the reason people place Shunsui as the next strongest behind Yama is because of Yamamoto's statement about he and Ukitake being the best of his students (which doesn't have to refer to power), aswell as him claiming that the both of them were unstoppable as a team (which also doesn't necessarily refer to power alone).

    Both he and Ukitake have incredibly hax abilities. Which is another thing to take into consideration when referring to "strongest character in Bleach". Ability, rather than outright power.

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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by jaymizzo View Post
    This is taking things way out of context. Sure Kenpachi would be immensly powerful but realise that Yamaji had enough power to actually end the SS captains and whoever was in FKT at that time with only his Shikai and in Bankai would have destroyed SS had the fight gone on for longer.

    The difference in power and ability when it comes to Yama and the rest of the captains is evidently huge. Dont think Kenpachi would have closed that gap to the point of even making Yama sweat. Not wanting to teach him could mean he realised that Kenpachi would be on a rampage and he would be uncontrollable. Shunsui allowed Kenpachi to reach or atleast get close to his potential, he did not seem worried about Kenpachi being the strongest, only that one of them would live or die between Ken and Unohana.

    If Shunsui was not worried about being crushed like a bug, Yama sure as hell was not either.
    As I said, there was no doubt that Yama-Jii was worlds apart from everyone else at that time. However, now that Zaraki has gained at least a Shikai, he may well have surpassed Yama-Jii; after all, Shunsui made it a special priority to train him up, which implies that Zaraki will be a table-turner.

    As for not training Zaraki up, you've just backed up my point; he may have been uncontrollable, implying it wouldn't be so easy for Yama-Jii to kill him if he reached his potential. So why has Shunsui decided to train him up? The answer's simple; they're pretty much screwed without him anyway, so Shunsui saw it as a risk that they'd have to take. This proves my point even further; why train Zaraki up if he's such a risk and wouldn't turn the tide in the war?
    Predictions
    • Just as Quincies are evolved beings born from Humans, Shinigami are evolved beings born from Hollows.
    • Once Yhwach dies, Ichigo's Quincy powers will disappear and his soul will become unstable, causing the onset of Soul Suicide.
    • Yhwach isn't going to be the final antagonist.

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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    Yamamoto was old, while Kenpachi was mastering his bankai and getting stronger day by day, Yamamoto's strength would be deteriorating due to old age. It was just a matter of time Kenpachi would surpass him and when he was gone, there would be nobody else to stop him. I guess Yamamoto didn't want to leave a potential threat to the next generation.

    I also believe that CC position has something to do with power. It's a common shonen logic which Bleach strictly follows, all captains are the strongest members of their respective divisions and all vice-captains are next to their captains in power scale. Yhwach is the strongest quincy and Haschwalth, who was expected to succeed him, seems to be stronger than other SRs. Aizen was stronger than all his subordinates. SRs are stronger than regular quincies and espadas were stronger than other arrancars. I don't see why CC position will be the only exception, especially after Kubo's words about Shunsui's bankai. Kenpachi, if he hasn't already, will eventually surpass him but I'm under the impression that Kenpachi will either die or quit his position as a captain after the war. Isshin and Urahara aren't members of Gotei 13, so it's not possible to compare them directly.

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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    I'm sure the reason people place Shunsui as the next strongest behind Yama is because of Yamamoto's statement about he and Ukitake being the best of his students (which doesn't have to refer to power), aswell as him claiming that the both of them were unstoppable as a team (which also doesn't necessarily refer to power alone).

    Both he and Ukitake have incredibly hax abilities. Which is another thing to take into consideration when referring to "strongest character in Bleach". Ability, rather than outright power.
    The difference is that Unohana wasn't Yama's student. She predated both Shunsui and Ukitake. And the two together being unstoppable doesn't do much to make a comparison of each as an individual to some of the other captains. I agree that Shunsui and Ukitake are amongst the most powerful captains, and their abilities only serve to make them more dangerous, but I question that there is enough to suggest that they are in any way superior to, or even equal to, Unohana.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mohsen View Post
    So yeah if Shunsui could defeat Shiigami Aizen then right now he is the strongest captain in SS.

    Besides that where was it stated that Yamajii was the only CC of the G13 til his death?Wasn't Yama-jii a CC for 1000 years and the G13 is 2000 years old.
    It's distinctly possible that he could defeat Shinigami Aizen, it's also possible that Unohana could've done the same. For me, the interaction between Aizen and Unohana back in SS, and the apparent fear of her on the part of the captains way back in the Turn Back The Pendulum chapters, speaks to Unohana's strength and status amongst the captains.

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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    @Impossibility: Do you think that Unohana is the strongest Shinigami in G13? Especially when Aizen,Yamajii,Ichibei,Nijima,Hikifune and the rest of the RG are around.

    Besides that Yamajii was far worse than Unohana in the past. Nevertheless he became the CC and not Unohana or someone else. Bach said it the worst one of the Killers were Yamajii himself. So thepoint that Unohana didn't become the CC cause of her past then Yamajii shouldn't have become one too. I mean if the worst criminal becomes the CC then why not one who is a less evil than him.

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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by Mohsen View Post
    @Impossibility: Do you think that Unohana is the strongest Shinigami in G13? Especially when Aizen,Yamajii,Ichibei,Nijima,Hikifune and the rest of the RG are around.

    Besides that Yamajii was far worse than Unohana in the past. Nevertheless he became the CC and not Unohana or someone else. Bach said it the worst one of the Killers were Yamajii himself. So thepoint that Unohana didn't become the CC cause of her past then Yamajii shouldn't have become one too. I mean if the worst criminal becomes the CC then why not one who is a less evil than him.
    Um, my first post already declared Yama the strongest, that isn't even being debated. The Royal Guards aren't members of the Gotei 13. And I consider Unohana to be superior to Shinigami Aizen, it's something most seem to agree with.

    As for history, Unohana was declared to be SS's worst and most diabolical criminal. Yama's rise to CC is irrelevant, he rose to power at a different time under completely different circumstances. The divisions at the time were described as bloodthirsty killers, so Yamamoto's leadership was appropriate. And Yamamoto founded the Gotei 13, who else was going to be its commander.

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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Um, my first post already declared Yama the strongest, that isn't even being debated. The Royal Guards aren't members of the Gotei 13. And I consider Unohana to be superior to Shinigami Aizen, it's something most seem to agree with.

    As for history, Unohana was declared to be SS's worst and most diabolical criminal. Yama's rise to CC is irrelevant, he rose to power at a different time under completely different circumstances. The divisions at the time were described as bloodthirsty killers, so Yamamoto's leadership was appropriate. And Yamamoto founded the Gotei 13, who else was going to be its commander.
    But the RG's were once members of the G13 or? I mean if there are characters that were stronger than Unohana then why did Unohana say that no one could fight her toe to toe until she met Zaraki? Was she lying?

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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    Well I think we have pretty much established Yama is the strongest. After that though, it's a toss up, imo, between Shunsui and Retsu. I don't include Jushiro because of his illness I don't know if it decreases is combat capabilities (which it more than likely does) and by how much.

    Shunsui was made Captain Commander which, as stated by Yama, is the position of the strongest Shinigami. In my opinion though, it was an easy choice considering Jushiro's illness and Unohana's past. I don't think it necessarily means Shunsui is stronger than Unohana and Ukitake, just that he is the better fit. They could all be on the same level for all we know.

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