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Thread: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

  1. #61
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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    No matter what Kenpachi does, Yamamoto only needs to use ZnT then the big guy would disappear for ever. We all saw the big different in the past chapters: Yamamoto >>> fake Bach >> Kenpachi. The main reason that Yamamoto abandoned teaching Kenpachi because he didn't want to clean up the mess after Kenpachi goes wild in SS.

    Even gods could not be absolutely certain whether they existed at the most fundamental level of reality or were themselves simulated.

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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    I find Kenpachi to be the strongest, especially considering he's always held back in his fights. At least, he's one of the strongest with tremendous potential. I personally don't find Ichigo to be that strong, especially when he'd have easily lost to Kenpachi if Kenpachi went all out when they fought.

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility
    Age does seem like a consistent indicator of strength in the Bleach universe, even if exceptions exist. I don't doubt that Ukitake and Shunsui are impressive. There's quite a bit suggesting that she's beyond them, her history and their respect and apparent fear of her included, and the fact remains that they haven't shown anything yet to suggest that they could compete with her.
    I'd say managing to stand toe-to-toe with a released Yamamoto far exceeds anything Unohana has shown us thus far, but that's just my own opinion. Yes, I understand Ukitake's zanpakutou is in great part responsible for that, but we've seen that a zanpakuto's ability can be negated simply by overpowering it (Aizen vs. Soi Fon). We also saw Starrk deduce that there is a limit to the amount of power Ukitake can absorb/redirect. And I agree that there are exceptions to the rule of "older=stronger". This is one of those exceptions most likely.

    Quote Quote:
    The title of Kenpachi is pretty meaningless; since Ken's defeat to a shikai Ichigo I had little faith in the supposed strength one bearing the title should wield. In my mind, the Kenpachi that fought Ichigo in SS wasn't even worthy of the rank of captain.
    That's pretty much all I wanted to hear. I don't even think I need to post in this thread anymore now, lol.

    Quote Quote:
    The databooks make many claims, they aren't particularly useful. Although, as I pointed out when someone pointed to the databooks, Unohana's stats are ahead of Shunsui and Ukitake's. And the Zero Division is composed of former captains, so they too would be considered peers or predecessors of Shunsui and Ukitake.
    I've been told that the Bleach databooks work differently from the Naruto databooks. It doesn't rate characters on a scale compared to the minimum and maximum of obtainable power. But rather, their own basic parameters. Gin's 80 in power means that he's currently at 80 percent of his max potential. He could become 20% stronger before reaching his max. Byakuya's 90 in power doesn't necessarily mean he's stronger than Gin. Just that he is closer to his own max strength before he reaches his limit. Yamamoto's stamina lowered as he got older, so he's a bit different. Soi Fon's stamina is at 100, meaning she'll pretty much stay a paper canon forever.

    With that said, Unohana's status as the best swordsman in Seireitei would be tantamount to Neji having the best Taijutsu of all the Rookie 9: Only really impressive in situations where someone's gonna sit there and duel you. Less impressive against foes with kidou type zanpakutou or more varied fighting styles. Swordsmanship doesn't equate to sheer power either.

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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    I find Kenpachi to be the strongest, especially considering he's always held back in his fights. At least, he's one of the strongest with tremendous potential. I personally don't find Ichigo to be that strong, especially when he'd have easily lost to Kenpachi if Kenpachi went all out when they fought.
    How cute double standard there, u know u can apply the same logic to Ichigo aswell right? or did u just stop reading the manga after SS ark, from what we seen so far Ichigo is a superior version of Kempachi, and BTW kenny whent full power vs Ichigo (the power he had at that time)

    As for the strongest Shinigami well its a hard call, Ichigo is hybrid , Aizen well is Aizen (wtf is Aizen now) overall i would say some1 from RG (if they are shinigami anymore) if not i will go with shunsui or Isshin

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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    I'd say managing to stand toe-to-toe with a released Yamamoto far exceeds anything Unohana has shown us thus far, but that's just my own opinion. Yes, I understand Ukitake's zanpakutou is in great part responsible for that, but we've seen that a zanpakuto's ability can be negated simply by overpowering it (Aizen vs. Soi Fon). We also saw Starrk deduce that there is a limit to the amount of power Ukitake can absorb/redirect. And I agree that there are exceptions to the rule of "older=stronger". This is one of those exceptions most likely.
    I'd say Unohana's handling of an increasingly powerful Kenpachi, using her own power to restore him after each defeat, is a more impressive display than Shunsui and Ukitake being able to hold off Yamamoto's shikai for a short time, particularly considering Ukitake's ability. Shunsui may be proven to be stronger than Unohana, but I maintain that based on feats and reputation, I consider Unohana superior at the moment.

    Quote Quote:
    I've been told that the Bleach databooks work differently from the Naruto databooks. It doesn't rate characters on a scale compared to the minimum and maximum of obtainable power. But rather, their own basic parameters. Gin's 80 in power means that he's currently at 80 percent of his max potential. He could become 20% stronger before reaching his max. Byakuya's 90 in power doesn't necessarily mean he's stronger than Gin. Just that he is closer to his own max strength before he reaches his limit. Yamamoto's stamina lowered as he got older, so he's a bit different. Soi Fon's stamina is at 100, meaning she'll pretty much stay a paper canon forever.

    With that said, Unohana's status as the best swordsman in Seireitei would be tantamount to Neji having the best Taijutsu of all the Rookie 9: Only really impressive in situations where someone's gonna sit there and duel you. Less impressive against foes with kidou type zanpakutou or more varied fighting styles. Swordsmanship doesn't equate to sheer power either.
    And just like Naruto databooks, they're questionable. I agree to a certain extent about the way the databook is presented, and it is for that reason that I consider them mostly useless. They don't say much that is tangible. My thing is that at the very least Unohana has that title and has put for the feats to restore some significance to it after it appears to have been so thoroughly sullied by her predecessors. Her reputation and the obvious fear it elicits even from the likes of Shunsui and Ukitake, and seemingly even some of the Zero Division, speaks for itself. Swordsmanship is far from the total strength of any shinigami, as we know. However, in that sphere she is undoubtedly significantly superior to both Shunsui and Ukitake, which is more than I can say of either Shunsui and Ukitake so far.
    Last edited by Impossibility; October 12, 2013 at 12:20 PM.

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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    I'd also rate Unohana above Shunsui. I wouldn't take Yama's line about holding his position because he was the strongest literally, especially since if you do take it literally then someone was stronger than him over 1000 years ago, and he evidently remained Captain Commander during that time. That's not why Shunsui was chosen, he was chosen because he was Yama's main protege, and unlike Unohana he didn't have a background as a rampaging psycho. He also comes from a noble house, which may or may not have some bearing. Ukitake's illness makes him less reliable than Shunsui, since you never know when he'll be available for duty or if he's even going to live as long as other Shinigami.

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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    Well, it's too early to compare Unohana to Shunsui if you ask me, because he has not revealed his bankai yet. (Which personally I suspect will be some awesome powerful shiz)

    Funny thing though, they can cure anything in Bleach (even bodies getting cut in half) but when it comes to Ukitake's illnesss...nope. Orihime should just heal him.

  8. #68
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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility
    I'd say Unohana's handling of an increasingly powerful Kenpachi, using her own power to restore him after each defeat, is a more impressive display than Shunsui and Ukitake being able to hold off Yamamoto's shikai for a short time, particularly considering Ukitake's ability.
    It's an "agree to disagree" situation then. I didn't see anything during that fight that could be considered comparable to Yamamoto's shikai level power and, once again, ability only counts for so much when we take into consideration that there is a limit to how much Ukitake can absorb (meaning if anything would've overpowered it then it would have been an attack from the most powerful character in the series). Kenpachi gradually grew stronger... but it took Unohana wasting reiatsu to revive him continuously (potentially weakening her to a level where he could kill her). And I'm absolutely positive that the Kenpachi in that fight wasn't comparable to Yamamoto in ANY capacity.

    Quote Quote:
    Her reputation and the obvious fear it elicits even from the likes of Shunsui and Ukitake, and seemingly even some of the Zero Division, speaks for itself.
    I guess others just see that fear as more substantial than Kubo has been revealing it to be (to me). I always saw it in a comedic fashion, similar to Tsunade and Sakura's fiery personalities scaring characters like Jiraiya and Naruto. No one in their right mind would claim that Tsunade or Sakura could defeat Jiraiya or Naruto (or that they were stronger), and yet both of these characters are scared shitless of the both of them because of their violent streaks and ability to hold a grudge.

    I'm absolutely positive it's the same here. Unohana's like a scary older sister who used to frighten Ukitake and Shunsui back before they came into their own. After that, their opinions of her wouldn't change, even though their ability to stand up to her would have.

    I can't prove any of this... it just fits for me.

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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    Quote Quote:
    It's an "agree to disagree" situation then. I didn't see anything during that fight that could be considered comparable to Yamamoto's shikai level power and, once again, ability only counts for so much when we take into consideration that there is a limit to how much Ukitake can absorb (meaning if anything would've overpowered it then it would have been an attack from the most powerful character in the series). Kenpachi gradually grew stronger... but it took Unohana wasting reiatsu to revive him continuously (potentially weakening her to a level where he could kill her). And I'm absolutely positive that the Kenpachi in that fight wasn't comparable to Yamamoto in ANY capacity.
    Well you need to wait since the fight between Uno and Zaraki wasnt to show Unos power. It was a fight to powerup Zaraki.
    Also Shun & Uki vs Yama wasn't really a fight to show any of their power so its hardly can be really taken as a proof of anything especialy since they were fighting as a team so when Yama attacked on the other could just interput and prevent Yama from using full power..... Anyway in SS the powerlevels wee barely estabilised so....
    Uno vs Zaraki is actualy more informative. It clearly tells us that Unohana could deal with Zaraki hundreds of times without really trying....also
    Quote Quote:
    Originally Posted by Impossibility
    I'd say Unohana's handling of an increasingly powerful Kenpachi, using her own power to restore him after each defeat, is a more impressive display than Shunsui and Ukitake being able to hold off Yamamoto's shikai for a short time, particularly considering Ukitake's ability.
    the importan thing about this statement is that Unohana was healing Zaraki..... Healing in bleach heals wounds and restore reiats...... Unohana fought Zaraki for 3 dats and in that time Zaraki was at his 100% at all time and with each healing he was stronger. Unohana was at her 100% only before the fight started. During those 3 days she used her reiatsu to fight Zaraki, heal him and heal herself, but its not possible for Unohana to restore her reiatsu with her own reiatsu......

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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    It's an "agree to disagree" situation then. I didn't see anything during that fight that could be considered comparable to Yamamoto's shikai level power and, once again, ability only counts for so much when we take into consideration that there is a limit to how much Ukitake can absorb (meaning if anything would've overpowered it then it would have been an attack from the most powerful character in the series). Kenpachi gradually grew stronger... but it took Unohana wasting reiatsu to revive him continuously (potentially weakening her to a level where he could kill her). And I'm absolutely positive that the Kenpachi in that fight wasn't comparable to Yamamoto in ANY capacity.
    Fair enough. Although, I think you point to another factor that many seem to miss from Unohana's fight, something she deserves credit for and something that only furthers my questions about Kenpachi's status in general. Throughout that battle, Kenpachi was getting stronger, while Unohana was getting progressively weaker. And seeing as she had zero intention of every stopping the battle, she never stood a chance, and yet put on such a display. The funny thing is by the way the battle was designed Kenpachi could've won the battle even if he was truly weaker than Unohana, she should've, in theory, been exhausted by the time she faced the last Kenpachi incarnation while he would seemingly be at peak condition because of her ministrations.

    Quote Quote:
    I guess others just see that fear as more substantial than Kubo has been revealing it to be (to me). I always saw it in a comedic fashion, similar to Tsunade and Sakura's fiery personalities scaring characters like Jiraiya and Naruto. No one in their right mind would claim that Tsunade or Sakura could defeat Jiraiya or Naruto (or that they were stronger), and yet both of these characters are scared shitless of the both of them because of their violent streaks and ability to hold a grudge.

    I'm absolutely positive it's the same here. Unohana's like a scary older sister who used to frighten Ukitake and Shunsui back before they came into their own. After that, their opinions of her wouldn't change, even though their ability to stand up to her would have.

    I can't prove any of this... it just fits for me.
    I could understand this take on things, although I would say that her relationship differed significantly from the ones you point to. And I'd also point to the Ichibei's intervention between Kirinji and Unohana that seemed to indicate their feelings on her that I pointed to earlier.

    To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised to see Shunsui's display exceed that from Unohana later on, mainly because what Unohana was fully capable was primarily left to our imagination. We were presented with a living legend who fought a battle we barely saw anything of, one in which the conclusion was set in stone seemingly regardless of her ability. If we have seen the last of her, she is likely to be the most wasted character in the entirety of the manga by far.

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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by Notak View Post
    Well, it's too early to compare Unohana to Shunsui if you ask me, because he has not revealed his bankai yet. (Which personally I suspect will be some awesome powerful shiz)

    Funny thing though, they can cure anything in Bleach (even bodies getting cut in half) but when it comes to Ukitake's illnesss...nope. Orihime should just heal him.
    True. On the same subject, I don't think Unohana's Bankai has actually been revealed properly yet. We've seen the form it takes obviously, but that whole sequence with her and Zaraki's flesh melting away might not have been anything to do with it. I interpreted it as a metaphorical thing, just an artistic way of showing off what Zaraki was feeling about everything melting away leaving just the pure fight. So I don't think it's even been revealed what Unohana's Bankai does, though I may be wrong there.

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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    I think zaraki can be more powerful(without his zan abilities), if he beat someone stronger than him later. During his training with unohana, he became as strong as or slightly stronger than unohana and then she died. So maybe zaraki is going to be more powerful... Maybe in his zan world when he foghts his zan?

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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    1. Ichigo Kursaki
    2. Sosuke Aizen
    3. Genryusai Yamamoto
    4. Kisuke Urahara
    5. Isshin Kurasaki
    6. Gin Ichimaru
    7. Shinji Harako
    8. Shunsui Kyoraku
    9. Kenpachi Zaraki
    10. Retsu Unohana
    *Royal Guard and Royal Family excluded*

    Ichigo is the protagonist and has ascended god tier through Final Getsuga Tensho. As the meme goes, "One does not simply kill Ichigo".

    Aizen is the primary antagonist and has ascended demi-god tier through Hogyoku. He also already had second best base, was the second most intelligent Bleach character, and has a hax Shikai.

    Yamamoto remained Captain Commamnder for thousand of years due to his strength and power. He has the best base, among the oldest/most experienced Bleach characters, and has a hax Shikai/Bankai.

    Mr. Hat has mid captain tier base, average Shikai, his Bankai is an unknown x factor, and THE most intelligent Bleach character. He is actually stronger than he appears as well (flashback arc reveals this) and one of the best characters at kido (Fake Kakura Town arc reveals this). Plus he is able to OHKO anyone that isn't god tier through hax seals/inventions/etc (would've OHKO Aizen under normal circumstances and later he does defeat Aizen thanks to help from Ichigo).

    Isshin has senior captain tier base, average Shikai, his Bankai is an unknown x factor, and there is one more unknown x factor. The second x factor being, the fact that he has uses Getsuga Tensho while fighting Aizen, told Ichigo about Final Getsuga Tensho in Dangai and the fact he mentioned "gaining his Shinigami powers back" while speaking to Ryuken in Kakura Town after defeating the Fisher Arrancar. This quite possibly points to the fact that he and Ichigo have the same powers and that he had used Final Getsuga Tensho before which would put him at God tier which would increase the rating. This is still speculation though, so until then going based off his brief fights with Aizen and Fisher Arrancar.

    Gin has senior captain tier base, has hax shikai/bankai, and among the most intelligent Bleach characters. He was the second in command below Aizen in their "army" for good reason and was the only person to actually figure out the fatal flaw to Aizen's hax Shikai (the weakness is similar to Tousen's hax Bankai interestingly).

    Shinji has senior captain tier base, has hax shikai, has an unknown x factor bankai, and has additional power from hollowification. He is almost among the most intelligent Bleach characters. He is unfortunately outclassed by Aizen.

    Shunsui has senior captain tier base, has hax shikai, and has an unknown x factor bankai. He is willing to do what he needs to do even if it is "dirty". He was promoted to Captain Commander. Well in terms of best suited for this, Shinji is a Visored, Ukitake is ill, Kenpachi is hurr durr plus he lacks several normally captain required skills, and only Unohana come close to being strong/wise enough out of the rest. There is a possibility this decision was made by Central 46. Nonetheless in terms of being strongest by my definition he surpasses Unohana.

    Kenpachi has god tier base (combat wise), but can't use Kido, shunpo, Shikai, or Bankai at all yet. He has potential to and depending on how things unfold, his rating will go up or stay the same. He is honestly an inferior version of Ichigo akin to how Shinji is an inferior version of Aizen. He defeated Unohana and several Espada, amongst other feats.

    Unohana has senior captain tier base, has a useless Shikai which can be ignored (in-battle wise), has a potential hax Bankai, and is among the most intelligent Bleach characters. She can "tank" as long as she isn't OHKO due to her Kido healing.

    ---
    Ukitake is a worthy mention of being on par with Shunsui, except he is ill, which makes him very inconsistent and therefore completely ignored from the list.
    Last edited by TisForTat; October 13, 2013 at 06:34 PM.

  14. #74
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by Auryon View Post
    How cute double standard there, u know u can apply the same logic to Ichigo aswell right? or did u just stop reading the manga after SS ark, from what we seen so far Ichigo is a superior version of Kempachi, and BTW kenny whent full power vs Ichigo (the power he had at that time)
    Ichigo beat Kenpachi only because Kenpachi was holding back, if we take what Unohana said to be true. I don't see any double standard, considering Ichigo had to go all out against a Kenpachi not close to his full power. if he did go full power, why did Unohana say otherwise?

    I don't see what makes Ichigo superior, other than him being a main character, and thus being made to be better.

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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    Are u for real? Again, did u stop reading the manga after SS ark? u can apply the same logic to Ichigo more then Kenpachi

    And are u really gona play the main character card? thats low

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