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Thread: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

  1. #151
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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    The entire topic surrounding kenpachi's zampakuto is at best murky. Kenpachi did make the point that his sword did not change but I would hardly think that is the same as him being in constant release. Realistically speaking kenpachi knew nothing about his sword and the whole zampakuto thing is to begin with extremely personal so if he claims his zampakuto is in shikai who in the manga can actually reasonably make the point that it actually isn't and why should we as readers who have a perspective different from characters in the manga believe him? Kenpachi said his sword never changed but given his ignorance we can make the point that he plainly had no idea whatsoever of what he was talking about so he never was in shikai at all. Now, even if kenpachi was for whatever reason right there is another thing to consider. Remember tousen, aizen and perhaps a few others? Their zampakuto never changed shapes when shikai was used. Kenpachi could as well be like that and have his shikai simply be an ability. In which case we would never conclusively know if his shikai was active but he could not use his ability or he was simply with his sealed sword.
    Allright, but to use Shikai you HAVE TO know your Zan's name. And Kenpachi didn't hear it, he doesn't know it, he begged his sword to give him his name after Ichigo fight, no response. Would he do that if he already was in Shikai, thus knew the name? He fought Unohana pretty soon after getting his sword from a dead body, and then limited himself to enjoy fighting.

  2. #152
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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    the more i think about it

    urahara is probably the most formidable shinigami besides ichigo, yamamoto, and aizen

  3. #153
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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    As far as power go, Kenpachi demonstrated the most powerful destructive feat every in bleach, by instantly obliterating an entire meteorite which was about 1/2 the size of Seireitei.

    Estimates show that Seiretei is about 200 KM to 700 KM in diameter, so if we take the average 450 KM this is 15% of the size of the moon.

    To destroy the moon you need about 30.000.000.000.000 MT of TNT.. so that's about 4.500.000.000.000 MT of TNT that Zaraki used to destroy it. And that's with his eyepatch on. I couldn't find any reliable source about how much reiatsu does his Eyepatch seal but estimate say it's between 1/2 of his power to 1/10 in the new and improved eye-patch that he started using in the Fullbringer-arc. In the high-end Kenpachi is a moon-buster, in the low end he can destroy something as large as 20-40% the size of the moon with ease.

    His speed to reach the meteorite was also extremely impressive jumping a distance of several dozen kilometers in an instant.

    Even "No-zan needed" Ichigos Final Getsuga was a few kilometers in range and his shockwave from attacks could destroy hills/small mountains.

    Kubo wanted to show how monstrous Zaraki had become after his powerup and he used something insane to demonstrate it, if you ask me.. I think he didn't think through what that meteorite destruction feat meant. Zaraki is close to power with DBZ characters in the beginning of the manga/anime (Raditz Saga).

    edit :
    Also here is a link calculating the lowest-end to the meteorite feat in great detail (Don't know about rules of posting links, it's not spam or troyan btw). http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Kenpachi's_meteor_feat . Author stated that this is just the force needed to simply destroy the meteorite and it's the lowest end of it's size. Also Kenpachi absorbed and deflected all the kinetic energy of the meteorite which makes this feat even more impressive.
    Last edited by ANimouz; June 19, 2014 at 08:14 PM. Reason: additional info

  4. #154
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    I am not sure if zaraki has demonstrated the greatest feat "ever". Yamamoto himself had quite the insanely destructive force to begin with, to the point where an elaborate shikai technique could actually destroy karakura town many times over. Considering that with his bare fist he could easily destroy wonderweiss, it is not that insane an idea that he could top what zaraki did with shikai. And even then, his bankai had the temperature of the sun which is an insane amount of power. Aizen has an insane amount of power too, it is a shame he does not have an actual offensive ability with his zampakuto to make him relevant here. It would be interesting to see if byakuya with his most powerful bankai technique would be able to do something nowadays.

  5. #155
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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    To destroy a city the size of Karakura, you need a 20 MT nuclear bomb. In comparison Kenpachi demonstrated a feat that it's lowest end was 4.000.000.000.000 MT of TNT. Karakura city is 1.5 mile across, seiretei is about 140-750KM~ not to mention he would only do surface damage and not full scale obliteration.

    The 1.500.000 million degree is nothing special considering a typical nuclear explosion can reach temperatures 50 times that easy.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects...ear_explosions

    The temperatures and pressure released by such a swing and it's force (the swing which destroyed the meteorite) are simply magnitudes higher than even Yamamotos bankai.

    You can't argue with science, unless you want to argue that Bleachverse doesn't use any form or logic/physics laws in it.

    http://www.astronomycafe.net/qadir/q975.html

    This is a link that also shows what large meteorites would do to Earth, the Meteorite that Zaraki destroyed was 10 times larger than the last one (the biggest one on the graph).

    And in case you want to downplay the destructive force of a nuclear weapon the size of 20 MT of TNT.. here http://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/

    p.s are links allowed btw? if not tell so I can remove them or whatever.

  6. #156
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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by Xerneas View Post
    No we are talking about character portrayal. No one thinks RG is weaker than Renji. But Kubo could make them look bad and totally de-hype them.
    They will probably be used to showcase Yhwach's power.

  7. #157
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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by ANimouz View Post
    You can't argue with science, unless you want to argue that Bleachverse doesn't use any form or logic/physics laws in it.
    And there you have it. Applying real world logic to Bleach only goes so far, although I should also point out that your logic, in itself, makes a few assumptions with a few flaws.

  8. #158
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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    You know, I'm not sure that meteor is even as big as that. http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...1-page-14.html here, just before Zaraki is a bout to slash it it looks like it's about 1km in diameter give or take. Not to downplay what Zaraki did, it's a huge feat of strength and not something anyone else could do with just a sword swing, judging by other characters' reactions. Still, with the right technique, any Captain-class fighter can cause masses of destruction - http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...4-page-10.html

    But there's a difference between hitting an inanimate object and hitting a being emitting reiatsu - http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...4-page-14.html

    So it's not always the best gauge of strength. And tbh getting too literal with the physics doesn't always work. I'm pretty sure the oxygen around Yama would have been igniting and he'd have melted through the ground if his Bankai were about science and not magic.

    Having said all that, what Zaraki did was probably the most powerful show of physical strength so far that I can remember. He is the strongest swordsman amongst the Shinigami I'd say, but then that's nothing new. I still say Yama would hand his ass to him if they ever fought.

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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    The lance of thunder from Ulq was maybe at the 100 MT range of destruction. Not a good analogy. Also we show the meteorites size when it was just about to drop on Seiretei, it was 1/3 at least in size meaning it was 100-200KM minimum in size. You simply can't understand the size. To put it simple if you look at the sky where you currently sit it would cover the entire sky as far as you could see if it was a height of 100-200 meters.

    Also like I said.. the temperatures during the meteorites swing/explosion/obliteration should have been multiple million degrees. And physics do work in Bleach, otherwise they wouldn't use size, magnitude and heat measurements to show how powerful someone is. For instance Yamamoto specifically said his bankai was 1.500.000 degrees hot. And that's nothing insane when like I said a nuclear bomb generates that heat many times easy.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member eefrit's Avatar
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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    Kubo isn't a physicist. Nor does he employ actual physics. He uses funny books physics. See his take on Absolute Zero. Bleach isn't a science fiction series. Bleach physics =/= Earth physics. You cannot apply the two and use one to explain phenomena in the other.

    That being said, what Zaraki did was impressive, though I highly doubt he is the only one capable of such a feat. The number is few, but he isn't the only one. I refuse to believe he is the only one.

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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    You know there is a huge difference between "I BELIEVE that other characters can do this" and "What characters can ACTUALLY do it?". Show the feats. I can also assume that Kenpachi is 10 times stronger since he was still fighting with his eyepatch on, but this would be an "assumption" not what is actually going on.

    Like I said the pinnacle of power we have seen before the meteorite feat, was the mountain busting clashes between Ichigo and Aizen and these classes were magnitudes inferior to the Meteorite feat.

    Meteorite 150 KM in size > Mountain ~1 KM in size.
    1.500.000 degree bankai < Pressure and heat generated from the destruction of the meteorite

    not to mention speed.

    Just show me another instance of such a demonstration of power.. Oh wait. There is none, I have watched the anime/manga countless times and I still can't get over the fact that Zaraki did what he did. It blew my mind in so many levels. I though I had seen the pinnacle of power between Ichigo and Aizen.. but this.. this is just insane. It's a TOTALLY different level.

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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    No one's denying Zaraki's strength, but saying he's above Ichigo and Aizen just because he smashed more stuff up is taking it a bit far. They weren't just exceptionally strong, they were on an entirely different level to any Shinigami - a fundamentally superior kind of being. They wouldn't even count on the list of strongest Shinigami. But if you do want to talk destruction, all the stuff they did with obliterating mountains and leaving huge craters in the ground was done without them even trying, it was just collateral damage done accidentally. Anyway, what I meant with the Ulquiorra example is that the size of an explosion doesn't necessarily relate to the power behind it. This is the point, anyone approaching Captain-class can leave masses of destruction in their wake - Any of the top 4 Espada could have apparently destroyed the gigantic Las Noches, yet Sui Feng's Bankai hurt Barragan with a much smaller blast (he only survived because he's a skeleton already). Physics gets a little shaky because there's the whole thing of spiritual energy/power/pressure in Bleach. Ask any biologist about Rukia's ability to freeze fear if you need to know how many calculations Kubo put behind the meteor breaking thing.

    Smashing a meteor is indeed a great feat of strength and I'm not even disagreeing that Zaraki is the strongest Shinigami in the Gotei 13 right now (that doesn't count the Royal Guard of course, though we're in no position to compare them to anybody yet except to make guesses), but you're making way too much of that example. Yes, Zaraki is the strongest Shinigami, he has the greatest physical strength, arguably the highest reiatsu (arguable in comparison to Aizen and Yamamoto) but his lack of other skills makes him less than invincible.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Xerneas's Avatar
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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    Guess some people still don't get that bigger =/= stronger. It wasn't even like that in DBZ. And its not like that in BLEACH. If we use such basic and incorrect logic then R2 Ulquiorra is stronger than nearly everybody and obviously that isn't true.

    Kenpachi can't do shit to either FGT Ichigo or Butterflaizen. None of his attacks would work unless they purposefully lowered themselves down to his Shinigami level. Anyways, there's such a thing as concentrated attacks y'know. Mugetsu is the perfect example and is still the strongest thing shown in the manga.

    Speaking of concentrated, Yama condensed all his legendary reiatsu onto a 15 million degree blade that would wipe Kenpachi from existence. A power stated by Unohana capable of destroying all of Soul Society not just Sereitei like Gremmy's meteor. And you don't need any fucking feat to believe that because it should be common sense. She knows what she's talking about because she's from the old days. Where he threatened SS with his power despite it being weaker back then. This topic shouldn't even be a debate until RG get shown off. -_-

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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    You don't need to be an expert in thermonuclear dynamics to understand that destroying a meteorite that large means that this is an insane demonstration of power. Unless you believe and claim that Kubo is randomly generating objects without any though process, and that size doesn't mean anything. But it does. The stronger the character is the stronger the explosions/feats/destruction scale is. An example

    He specifically showed multiple panels with the size and condition of the meteorite.
    He specifically showed the reactions of many characters and how insane and out of this world was something like this.

    Not to mention that every one was like "Okey good game guys Gremmy is a complete madman".

    Edit : BTW a 150KM side meteorite would destroy far more than Seiretei. It destructive force would be enough to destroy earth crust and incinerate the planet for several years.

    You still undermine the feat. Also 15.000.000 degrees are NOTHING, nuclear bombs today have far higher temperatures than this.

    Edit 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fj5T_jx0t44 A good example of the destruction that would happen, the meteorite size is about the same that Gremmy conjured.
    Last edited by ANimouz; June 21, 2014 at 03:16 PM.

  17. #165
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Xerneas's Avatar
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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    1) You need to read over the end of Arrancar arc. Destructive force is useless against Transcendent beings unless you are on the same "level" as them or unless they bring down that level to yours. Thats how Gin was able to injure Aizen. Comparing any normal Shinigami to them - including Yama even - is a farce. Aizen's Black Coffin + Fracor and Ichigo's Mugetsu >>>>>>> Gremmy Meteor.

    2) The Meteor was gonna destroy Sereitei and kill everybody inside it except Gremmy. That was the whole point. Read over the chapters! And for goodness sake STOP using solid numbers unless KUBO uses them. You are taking his numbers and extrapolating them to ridiculous levels when that was never HIS intention. Talkin bout planetary destruction and shit. -_-

    3) Kenpachi has not shown anything (yet) to convince me - and most people - that he's the strongest Shinigami. When he shows his Shi Kai ability we'll see. More likely though either Nimaiya or Ichibei is the real strongest Shinigami. But you can't count them yet so for this topic Yamamoto is the obvious answer.

    Forgot the most important thing:

    4) Reiatsu. I haven't seen much talk from you about reiatsu. Instead just a bunch of numbers and real world physics. The meteor, the way Kenpachi pwned it. ALL of it is reiatsu. His is much bigger than Gremmy's, so he made mincemeat outta his meteor tech. But its not stronger than Ichigo's, who I should remind you is the top ranked War Potential. And I seriously doubt its stronger than Yamamoto's. So he didn't do anything they couldn't have. You are acting like Ken suddenly became a God. No, thats what Aizen and Ichigo became last arc. Refer to point 1. Transcendent reiatsu > everything else.
    Last edited by Xerneas; June 22, 2014 at 01:45 PM.

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