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Thread: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

  1. #166
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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    1) Physical force is useless against transcendent beings.

    Wrong. You just need an insane amount for it to be effective. Proven by Ichigo which damaged Aizen by grabbing him from the face and throwing him to the ground. As stated by Aizen, this was pure physical strength. And like Aizen even stated again the ultimate transcendent form of Ichigo converts all his special powers and reiatsu into physical power to explosively increase his physical capabilities. Ichigo fought the first form of butterflyaizen and dominated him with pure physical strength he then converted all the physical power to reiatsu to execute his Final Getsuga.

    2) Transcendent beings are Gods.

    Wrong. They are just entities that are something that is not shinigami or hollow. They play on a different playing field and while being extremely powerful are not immortal or invulnerable. Aizen is immortal thanks to hogyoku and not him being a perfect Hollow-Shinigami hybrid.

    3) The meteor would destroy Seretei only.

    Unless the cosmological events, gravity and physics work completely differently than our own, that's not the case. And since we know that Seretei is about 400-700 KM in size and the meteorite was about 150-250 KM in diameter.. it's destructive force would be significantly higher. If Kubo is going to throw numbers like 15.000.000 Degrees is considered too hot, then a 150 KM sized meteorite IS BIG. And as such everything that goes along with that size, kinetic energy and heat.

    4) Reiatsu

    You came to that. So if everything is about Reaitsu, then that's everything that matters and physics are useless. Then heat/size/form/utilities/abilities are pointless. Every single fight would be reduced to who has the most Reaitsu, and we all know damn well this isn't the case.
    Last edited by ANimouz; June 22, 2014 at 07:18 PM.

  2. #167
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by ANimouz View Post
    1) Physical force is useless against transcendent beings.

    Wrong. You just need an insane amount for it to be effective. Proven by Ichigo which damaged Aizen by grabbing him from the face and throwing him to the ground. As stated by Aizen, this was pure physical strength. And like Aizen even stated again the ultimate transcendent form of Ichigo converts all his special powers and reiatsu into physical power to explosively increase his physical capabilities. Ichigo fought the first form of butterflyaizen and dominated him with pure physical strength he then converted all the physical power to reiatsu to execute his Final Getsuga.

    2) Transcendent beings are Gods.

    Wrong. They are just entities that are something that is not shinigami or hollow. They play on a different playing field and while being extremely powerful are not immortal or invulnerable. Aizen is immortal thanks to hogyoku and not him being a perfect Hollow-Shinigami hybrid.

    3) The meteor would destroy Seretei only.

    Unless the cosmological events, gravity and physics work completely differently than our own, that's not the case. And since we know that Seretei is about 400-700 KM in size and the meteorite was about 150-250 KM in diameter.. it's destructive force would be significantly higher. If Kubo is going to throw numbers like 15.000.000 Degrees is considered too hot, then a 150 KM sized meteorite IS BIG. And as such everything that goes along with that size, kinetic energy and heat.

    4) Reiatsu

    You came to that. So if everything is about Reaitsu, then that's everything that matters and physics are useless. Then heat/size/form/utilities/abilities are pointless. Every single fight would be reduced to who has the most Reaitsu, and we all know damn well this isn't the case.
    The implication in the manga is that aizen was wrong about the bit of ichigo pushing him with purely physical strength. Ichigo had reiatsu at that point and through all the fight, aizen was simply unable to perceive it. So what actually happened in the manga was that ichigo had the reiatsu to move at a speed and with sufficient force to push aizen. Even ichigo made the point that when the mountain was destroyed it was not aizen who did it but ichigo.

    Well, I would argue godhood is in some context aplicable to transcendent beings. Aizen had quite a few things going for him, insane regeneration, reiatsu beyond the perception of lesser beings, and even the ability to teleport. If we consider what was said by aizen about lesser beings interfering with transcendentals then to a great extent transcendents are effectively gods even if it does not necessarily conform to the exact definition we usually work with or the soul king. We are talking about a force who simply cannot be opposed by traditional reiatsu in any form or context after all.

    To be honest I don't think kubo is necessarily applying real world physics. As strong as a meteor is I am not sure kubo wrote the manga in such a way that it would only be plausible for kenpachi to stop it. To be honest I wouldn't put it past the likes of aizen, yamamoto, ichigo or juhabach to be able to pull this off. Yamamoto in particular has displayed power beyond a captains bankai with his mere fists for example. To put things in perspective, remember the suicidal technique yamamoto planned to use against aizen? Once it was released from wonderweiss' head it had enough power to destroy an area much larger than fake karakura town. Basically a nuclear bomb. Considering the science you have presented that should theoretically be stronger than yamamoto's bankai considering everything.. However it is very unlikely that is the case.

    Reiatsu IS everything, that is the absolute standard in the manga when it comes to confrontations. The point has been made repeatedly in many forms since kenpachi explained how reiatsu clashes worked. Even the bit with transcendentals conformed to that to the point where ichigo's reiatsu blew off a montain, stopped barehanded aizen's blade and repelled a kido with a movement of ichigo's hands. Strategy can matter in such a way that you can overcome a stronger enemy (take hachigen and barragan for example) however when it comes to reiatsu clashes the rule is iron clad.

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  4. #168
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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by ANimouz View Post
    4) Reiatsu

    You came to that. So if everything is about Reaitsu, then that's everything that matters and physics are useless. Then heat/size/form/utilities/abilities are pointless. Every single fight would be reduced to who has the most Reaitsu, and we all know damn well this isn't the case.
    In which case Zaraki doesn't win every fight just because he has a strong arm and lots of reiatsu. But no, it's not as simple as reiatsu>all, certain abilities can't just be overpowered otherwise Aizen wouldn't have been affected by Shinji's Sakanade. Obviously there are factors besides reiatsu. But of all the things you listed, size is the one that's the closest to being pointless - size didn't stop Komamura from flipping that whale Arrancar over by the finger and it didn't stop Aizen from oneshotting Komamura's Bankai because they had the reiatsu to do those things. When it comes to Zaraki vs. meteor, the meteor had no reiatsu and Zaraki had a lot. Not everyone would have the power to do what he did, no one's making that claim, but there's no point applying real world physics so literally when there's this whole mystical energy force behind virtually everything that happens in this manga.

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  6. #169
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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    Its not that the meteor didn't have reiatsu per say, its that it was being powered by Gremmy's reiatsu, which is far inferior to Kenpachi. We saw what happened to him when he tried to copy Ken's reiatsu level. Now lets say Yamamoto summoned that meteor instead it would have been much harder to stop because his reiatsu is on or above Kenpachi's level. So the size is quite irrelevant. It could have been a small rock containing a ton of a reiatsu and would still cause massive damage.

    And yes there are a few "hax" powers that bypass the "reiatsu rule". KS is one of them and thats why Aizen was so OP. The thing these few examples have in common is that they can't be interacted with physically. Tsukishima's BoTE is quite similiar. Once you get hit reiatsu doesn't seem to work because your MIND has been infected. However any physical type power can be overcome with reiatsu. Look what happened with As Nodt and Rukia. Dude overcame freakin absolute zero!

    ...Where's the physics there eh? He got pwned by the same AZ type attack later. Why? Because Rukia used Ban Kai and therefore her reiatsu increased tremendously and became much bigger than his. So he wasn't able to resist her power the second time.

    ...This guy needs to read over Ichigo vs Aizen (why would the latter go through so much trouble for a non-godly power???) and accept this: Its MAGIC. Bleachverse has some of the same physical properties ours does but it operates totally different. SMH.

  7. #170
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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    I would think that the main point of the meteor itself was to simply skip the whole reiatsu battle thing. Gremy being inferior in terms of reiatsu was a given from the start of the battle, we saw that gremmy's attacks were consistently ineffective against kenpachi even when some of them presumably hit. So gremy got smart and made it not a battle of reiatsu but rather a battle of kenpachi against physics. The meteor is something that would have presumably hit harder than a thousands of nuclear bombs (depending on the speed and size of it). Now, it is plausible that the meteor did not hit that hard considering that gremy would have had to power up the size and speed of the meteor himself however that could be overcome by simply making a huge meteor appear from very high and have it gain kinetic energy on the way down (although if he did that the meteor probably did not reach the actual speeds a meteor coming from space would have). Its the same as when he threw kenpachi into the vacuum, it was kenpachi vs physics (and kenpachi had the sheer raw power to overcome physics).

  8. #171
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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    Considering how everyone got scared sh*tless from the meteorite, it's pretty much a given that it's destructive capabilities are a fact. If spiritual concentration is everything there is too it, then everyone would go unscathed from the meteorite and the damage it would do, since they have much higher spiritual concentration.. Right? Wrong.

    Also beings that have high spiritual concentration are not immortal by physics. Heat damages them, good ol' impact damages them, cold freezes them. As long as something is in Soul Society it's made of reiryoku and such would damage them.

    People really want to undermine the damage that a 150 KM sized meteorite could do.

    Size matters in Bleach. Big time. Especially when it's so colossally big by bleach standards.

    Like the above poster said, Gremmy wasn't fighting a physical battle but a battle of hurling physics and elements. He used various powerful objects from his imagination like lava, weapons, vacuum, instant healing, extreme durability etc. If it wasn't anyone else rather than Kenpachi fighting Gremmy he would simply get curbstomped.

    Seriously what can you do to someone that has the abilities : Invulnerability, Instant-Regeneration, creating living things out of nothing, creating matter out of nothing, creating nothing out of nothing (lol at that), multiplying himself as much as he likes and who knows what else he could do with his power. When someone throws meteorites half the size of Seretei at you, you know that this is something

  9. #172
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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by ANimouz View Post
    Considering how everyone got scared sh*tless from the meteorite, it's pretty much a given that it's destructive capabilities are a fact. If spiritual concentration is everything there is too it, then everyone would go unscathed from the meteorite and the damage it would do, since they have much higher spiritual concentration.. Right? Wrong.

    Also beings that have high spiritual concentration are not immortal by physics. Heat damages them, good ol' impact damages them, cold freezes them. As long as something is in Soul Society it's made of reiryoku and such would damage them.
    Well, I'm not disagreeing with the meteorite (yeah, I've been using the word meteor wrong this whole time, oops) being massively destructive. I'm not saying it wouldn't have killed pretty much everyone and I didn't say beings with reiatsu can't be hurt by anything without reiatsu. It's not like a Shinigami could take a dip in an active volcano and be just fine. I'm talking about the other way around - a reiatsu-driven force hitting a normal object has advantages over two normal objects hitting each other.

    For another example, look at any of the times Ulquiorra slammed Ichigo through a thick stone wall. I mean, given Ichigo's mass and actual velocity compared to the wall's mass, then if it were a matter of pure physics what would happen is that he might put a crack in the wall and his body is the thing that would get splattered wouldn't it? But because we're talking about beings using reiryoku things go differently.

    Quote Originally Posted by ANimouz View Post
    People really want to undermine the damage that a 150 KM sized meteorite could do.

    Size matters in Bleach. Big time. Especially when it's so colossally big by bleach standards.
    Where are you getting that 150km figure by the way? Because in the panel right before Zaraki smashes it, it looks nowhere near that size compared to him when he's in front of it. Anyway, in real world physics size matter big time. In reiryoku-powered clashes, it matters a lot less.

    Like the above poster said, Gremmy wasn't fighting a physical battle but a battle of hurling physics and elements. He used various powerful objects from his imagination like lava, weapons, vacuum, instant healing, extreme durability etc. If it wasn't anyone else rather than Kenpachi fighting Gremmy he would simply get curbstomped.

    Quote Originally Posted by ANimouz View Post
    Seriously what can you do to someone that has the abilities : Invulnerability, Instant-Regeneration, creating living things out of nothing, creating matter out of nothing, creating nothing out of nothing (lol at that), multiplying himself as much as he likes and who knows what else he could do with his power. When someone throws meteorites half the size of Seretei at you, you know that this is something
    I pretty much agree with Kkck said. Imo the meteorite wasn't propelled by reiatsu, it was just a meteorite - Gremmy imagined it being big and fast so it was. As he also said, Zaraki had the sheer power to overcome physics, which is pretty much what reiatsu exists for. That's my point, Gremmy was using a simple object capable of enormous destruction by sheer mass, velocity and temperature - Zaraki wasn't. Zaraki was using his spirit power, which I'm saying makes physical calculations meaningless. Yes, the meteorite was huge and massively destructive, but all that megaton stuff is just pointless when the actual answer basically boils down to the word 'magic'. Even if the meteorite was propelled by Gremmy's reiatsu, the same applies, Zaraki's reiatsu was just larger as Gremmy's death demonstrated.
    I'm not saying what Zaraki did wasn't an impressive feat, all I'm saying is you're overestimating the value of it, with these numbers and calculations that are basically meaningless in the frame of the manga.

  10. #173
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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    I wonder about the speed of the meteor to be honest. It just doesn't seem like it was going all that fast. A meteor usually travels at speeds upward of 11 km/s which is pretty insane however no matter how you look at it gremy's meteor was not going that fast. If anything it kinda seemed like it was slowmoing its way past the shakonmanku which is what gave shinigami the time to say things like "Holy crap the meteor is too big to be destroyed by the shakonmaku" or why kenpachi had the time to destroy it. It does not seem like the meteor started out all that high which also suggest the speed of the meteor was all that. So this is what I think happened here:

    1.- A proper meteor that size at a proper meteor speed would hit with a force in the vicinity of at the very least several thousand combined nuclear bombs and perhaps actually millions of them (according to google anyways).
    2.- However seeing how the manga developed it seems unlikely that the meteor had that sort of speed because it does not seem to have started out that high and everyone in SS had the time to actually be surprised at it.
    3.- So we have that the meteor is just a colossal rock moving at a relatively high speed but without the actual speed a meteor would normally have. Otherwise the 11 km/s thing would have resulted in the meteor hitting the ground way faster than it did.
    4.- Kubo made no effort whatsoever to keep proportions right as he did the meteor thing.
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...0-page-19.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...91-page-6.html

    I mean, in one image it looks like the meteor is just about the size of sereitei itself but in others it looks somewhat significantly smaller than that. Are we even sure the whole of the meteor made it past the shakonmaku before kenpachi destroyed it? For all we know kenpachi did not have to destroy the whole thing, he just had to break it enough so that the shakonmaku could handle what was on the other side. Its not like SS got buried in meteor fragments after all (kenpachi does not have the ability to actually obliterate meteors from existence, just to cut them up).

    Kenpachi is without a doubt the strongest shinigami right now however I don't think destroying the meteor in itself would require him to be hundreds of times stronger than a regular captain. Captains already have reality bending powers. Grimmow's and ichigo's fight bent space around them, ulquiorra with SE was able to throw multiple consecutive nukes with ease (I wonder how lanza would have fared against the meteor), yamamoto has done multiple plain irrational things, aizen can crush captains with his reiatsu, juhabach is absorbing the power of every fallen stern riter.... Byakuya was one of the more competent captains and on top of that went through the royal training, renji seems to easily exceed average captains nowadays.... Heck, unohana seemed to consider byakuya and renji proper playmates for current kenpachi. Dealing with the meteor is something that without a doubt would require a superior power however the idea that there would be others also capable of dealing with it somehow is not that insane. I would give yamamoto, aizen, current byakuya, SE ulquiorra, ichigo or maybe even mask (he had his mile wide punches before volstandig, that might leave a dent in the meteor) decent odds considering they have proven or implied insane destructive power beyond the ordinary captain class.
    Last edited by kkck; June 24, 2014 at 10:58 AM.

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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    Yeah, it did seem to be drawn at different sizes in different panels. Imo the most reliable one would be before Zaraki hit it, since it was the last time it was drawn and the one where it's size was most relevant to display the feat of destroying it. As for the speed, it's possible the Shakonmaku slowed it down, but then all those panels of various characters reacting to it were probably meant to be occuring simultaneously. Even still, I honestly think it's just a case of 'anime timing'.

    I agree that others could have destroyed it as well, but probably not with the same method Zaraki did. Brute force and cutting power are basically the sum of Zaraki's abilities and I'd say he's the strongest in those regards only. With other characters, I imagine they could destroy it but using some technique or other. Some high level Kido, or Zanpakuto technique. There's any number of flashy ways Ryujin Jakka could obliterate it, or Zanka no Tachi North.

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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    But all the "I think that X character could also destroy the meteorite". Show proof and actual facts. Because like I said even the "Lance of thunder" destruction is puny compared to the destructive force of an actual meteorite. It's like comparing a pistol to a nuclear bomb.

    Sereitei is 400-700 KM in size and from 2 panels it ranges from 1/3 of it's size to 1/4. Also on the panel that Zaraki charged to slash it, it looks smaller because you look it from a different angle and perspective. It's like saying your hand is bigger than the Sun because you can block the tiny dot in the sky or a more realistic example saying that the moon is bigger than the sun because it can completely block it out in the right angle. Don't try to diminish it's size or destructive force just to empower certain characters.

    Show me characters that show an equal level of destruction on such a scale. And stop about all the "concentrated" bs please. Imagine what would Zarakis damage would be if he focused all that power without his eye-patch and using Kendo with this giant Axe. He would cleave in half every single Shinigami + his Bankai effortlessly. It's not like Zaraki can't fight smart or fast.

    It's his choice in holding back in every single fight. That's everything there is about this character, he constantly holds back and should he unleash his true power for even a single swing, the fight is over.

    Imagine how anti-climactic would be if he just removed his eyepatch and used Kendo on Nnoitora right away. You guys are talking about a person that was STRONGER than the first Kenpachi when he was still a child without any form of training, and sealed his power in that same fight because he didn't want to kill the person that he enjoyed fighting so much for the first time.

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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    You keep asking us to prove our claims but won't explain where you keep getting your measurements from. How the hell do you know how big the seireitei is? You're making as many assumptions as we are.

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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    You keep asking us to prove our claims but won't explain where you keep getting your measurements from. How the hell do you know how big the seireitei is? You're making as many assumptions as we are.
    LOL moreso. He claimed Gremmy was using nuclear warfare.................

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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    You keep asking us to prove our claims but won't explain where you keep getting your measurements from. How the hell do you know how big the seireitei is? You're making as many assumptions as we are.

    I gave you a page with all these calculations. You just don't want or bother to look at it. Also I never claimed that Gremmy used nuclear warfare. Why would he, he can use that is far stronger than any nuclear bomb in existence.

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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by ANimouz View Post
    I gave you a page with all these calculations. You just don't want or bother to look at it. Also I never claimed that Gremmy used nuclear warfare. Why would he, he can use that is far stronger than any nuclear bomb in existence.

    You said in the Byakuya and Kenpachi Rivalry thread and I quote

    Quote Originally Posted by ANimouz View Post
    I haven't made a post in years but I'll make now.

    Byakuya vs Zaraki

    Why do people even want to do a fight like this, especially with the recent completely overpowered feats of Zaraki which outclass Final Getsuga Ichigo by a mile.

    Anyway let's compare feats here from Zaraki in his current form WITH his eye-patch.

    Destructive force : Large Meteorite which travel at hypersonic speeds. The meteorite that Gremmy created has the destructive force to obliterate the entire crust of planet earth. That by itself DWARFS anything that Bleach has shown. He obliterated this giant meteorite in a single swing.

    Speed : When he was still a child he blitzed Unohana and stabbed her in the chest before she could even understand what was going on. Shunpo is irrelevant to someone that can run at speeds that even Soi Fon would be jelly. He jumped several kilometers to destroy the meteorite in an instant which make him at least hypersonic and faster than Yoruichi multiple hundred times. (It took yoruichi several hours-days? to run across SS just to show a perspective)

    Defensive capabilities : He was fighting in tip-top shape while having a 10-15 cm hole in his abdomen and multiple deep stabs in his entire body. He withstood outer space for a small time, he tanked multiple small-size nuclear explosions face on. Oh did I say he tanked them with his eye-patch? Needless to say that Zaraki has shown the greatest tanking abilities in the anime.

    Anyway It's getting out of hand. Zaraki was the only captain that completely demolished 3x Sternritters on his weakened form while using his eyepatch. On his empowered form while still using the eyepatch he defeated the strongest sternritter, the one that made every single quincy shit themselves with his demonstrations of power. Zaraki is a special war potential, Byakuya isn't. Even the captain-commander admits that the fate of this war pretty much depends on Zaraki and even when we saw Zaraki getting almost killed by the ambush attack of the 4 female sternritters , everyone rushed to help him because he is the only one that can fight the strongest sternritters and win.

    Anyway.. It's a no contest win for Zaraki. He can TANK everything Byakuya can throw at him, completely overpower his bankai by reiatsu burst alone and kill him in a hit or two even with his eye-patch and not being serious. Full bloodlusted Kenpachi without eye-patch and using two handed Nozarashi would reduce byakuya into goo in less than a nano-second.

    p.s Zaraki went against plot-armor Ichigo and won. He is simply that broken as a character guys.
    See the bold part....nukes...you said it. In fact, you said it multiple times... Your post was full of fallacies and exaggeration. That page of calculations...while there is some manga fact there it's highly speculative. There is no way of knowing for sure...10 days???...walking day and night....running...using shunpo? Unless Kubo says for sure it will always be speculative.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member eefrit's Avatar
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    Re: Strongest Shinigami in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by ANimouz View Post
    I gave you a page with all these calculations.
    Yeah, no. There is nothing to officially base those measurements off of, so those numbers are nothing but assumptions.

    ---------- Post added at 03:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:29 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ANimouz View Post
    But all the "I think that X character could also destroy the meteorite". Show proof and actual facts. Because like I said even the "Lance of thunder" destruction is puny compared to the destructive force of an actual meteorite. It's like comparing a pistol to a nuclear bomb.
    More assumptions. It's well within the realm of possibility that Lanza Del Relampago could destroy Gremmy's meteor with ease. There is nothing (aside from your baseless measurements) that states otherwise.
    Last edited by eefrit; June 25, 2014 at 04:50 PM.

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