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Translations: Gintama 507 (2)
Start the goddamn dream world arc and put Naruto and Sasuke to settle their score for good.
Pure and simple, the problem with this series is that it took a ludicrous serial escalation without the plot following it's seriousness.
Everything up until this war arc was fine because "Madara" was a cunning villain and Sasuke was developing well into Naruto's ultimate adversary whereas the whole shinobi alliance BS was a shaky idea at best.
However, once the war began Kishimoto flipped to make the "Madara" we knew into Obito and powered up Naruto from a newly made Sage into a full-blown demi-god messiah.
This is what sucked, Naruto wasn't developed into a messianic figure, he had just shifted from a heroic outcast into a fully accepted hero whereas he had only began to grasp the tips of fighting hatred.
Comes the war and Kishimoto sinks the kitchen making Naruto sigle-handledly turn the tide on all battlefields and on top of that fight both a multi-bijuu armed Obito and an immortal Rinnegan wielding Mokuton user Madara Uchiha.
Worse than that is the fact everyone else was utterly useless in the main conflict save for a few sporadic moments of brilliance mostly made by Ino Yamanaka and her mind transfer jutsus.
I mean, the five Kages united just to get trashed by an already overhyped Madara whereas none of the Edo Tenseis beaten served to slow down Tobi's plans. In fact, they even accelerated the Moon Eye Plan by sealing a substitute for the Kyuubi and as of now all those ninja are doing nothing but serving as fodder needing to be saved by Naruto, Edo Kages and what the hell else.
By the time Kishimoto is through with all that BS and we are reintroduced to Naruto and Sasuke's fated clash, the former has become so uber charged that he is actually powering up the latter.
It's ridiculous, Sasuke was meant to be Naruto's rival but over the course of one day full of TnJ BS their carefully build balance of power, which was one of the main points of the manga, was completely trashed in favor of making Naruto the saviour of the world despite lacking any clear answear to it's problems besides hammering his nindo and friendship BS ad nauseum.
Seriously, why the hell did Kishimoto ruined all of his mostly careful build up just to bring into the fray an ungodly amount of zombies?
The only answear I can find is commercial, Kishimoto got swallowed to push foward more characters and movesets just to sell more games of his series.
Nothing else justifies Minato getting a Kyuubi mode out of his ass or Sakura getting her much awaited Yin Seal only at the 11th hour when none of this actually makes a difference to the plot.
Since the author pretty much trashed the plot for the sake of shoving more things for people to use in video games, the only way to put things back on track is by interrupting the current mess and cutting back to the main issues this series is about: personal conflicts and character evolution.
I want a dream world arc where the focus are the issues characters have with themselves and others because everything was put aside to show Naruto's pointless messianic rant about friendship getting squashed by a badly motivated Obito.
His character was much more interesting to me then - Akatsuki was also far more interesting under Pain than under Obito.
I preferred the possibilities of a 3 way dynamic
Naruto searching for Sasuke, whilst trying to avoid Akatsuki
Sasuke searching for Akatsuki (to find about Itachi), whilst avoiding Naruto
Akatsuki searching for Naruto, whilst having their network uncovered by Sasuke.
(and all 3 trying to avoid being found by Orochimaru - who is like the joker in this 3 way tug of war [yeah I play tug of war with jokers - and what?!?])
It was an awesome triangle.
It could have become even more interesting if Sasuke had fled Orochimaru, as it may have led to Naruto trying to make a deal with the devil (so to speak) to hunt down Sasuke (as both would desire to find Sasuke for their own ends).
Other Villages could have been brought into the story as Naruto follows Sasuke's trail - Akatsuki have secret ties in many villages. Naruto, as a member of Konoha, would obviously not want to be found in these potentially hostile villages, so we would have been able to see more of the classic 'ninja' style deception and cunning - rather than the SOT6P LEVEL NUKE FEST ATTACKS...
In fact, it is not only Sasuke's character who would be more interesting to me in this kind of scenario.
Itachi was always better as a bad guy in my opinion (his dealing with Sasuke when Jiraiya showed up first was badass).
Naruto wouldn't have this messianic rubbish going on. He would not be so childish, as he would have to grow up fast to be able to integrate subtly into the other hostile villages and environments. He may also have to do some less overly moral actions to hide his character.
Pain would also have retained his awesome villainous attitude. He was a much more interesting villain as his plan was actually quite believable for a kid who has seen so much suffering. He believed he was a good guy, and could hold together this group of villains through shear power.
I can't think of a character who would come off worse by this story-line than the current one.
There would also be the opportunity of Danzou being Hokage again - only this time for longer than a week...
Danzou being Hokage may even lead to Naruto deserting the village - becoming a missing nin like Sasuke...
Too many possibilities...
Last edited by zimbardo; October 14, 2013 at 03:22 AM.
actually , this manga need to be saved at this point , what is done , is done so no one can travel in time and rewrite entire story ....
The story has taken too many steps for the worse.
1stly with the whole everything being related to the Senju vs Uchiha - who are distantly related sons of the SOT6P - bs
then onto the Jyuubi
Finally onto the god tree...
The story is so far removed from the original that it is barely recognizable.
I guess it depends what is meant by 'save'. I do still enjoy reading Naruto, though I feel this is due to my love of the characters, artwork and fond memories of it. The story itself has lost all joy for me, with each new addition further crushing what I previously enjoyed.
SO, it isn't a case of Naruto needing to be saved (as that is not possible anymore) but rather a case of what I would have done differently with the storyline.
I will enjoy reading and discussing Naruto, but feel that it could be so much more than it is currently.
well , I think if both Naruto and Sasuke loss some of their super hax power in the end of this arc ( for me it is just like a terrible filler ) and then character act realisticly ( not to brainwashed by Naruto in less than 10 minutes ) and kishi remove some of those TnJ , LnJ , will of fire , child of destiny , " Naruto we are nothing without you " and all those bullshits , there will possibility for better future for manga ....
for example , the political conflict for choosing next hokage , some romance , the end of ninja army alliance and ........
kishi even can show use 17-25 years letter and next generation and ....
but at this rate , I rather to not see chapter 651 than reading this garbage ... it's ruining my good memory about Naruto golden days ...
This manga is done as Shonen ....
This is one of the more interesting subjects to me. Things have gotten so bad with this war arc, how can Kishi move past it all and get to a better place?
I don't really think it would be all that hard but it would require more than a few very drastic measures. Most of the things that were overbuilt or under delivered about this arc would have to be cut out of the story and that would be a very painful process along the way.
The overpowered abilities have to go.
Sharingan, everything involving the Rikoudou, and Kyuubi. The hype train for those powers has already gone off the rails so if they stay they will ruin the story. Blind or Kill Sasuke. Extract, Depower, or Destroy the Kyuubi. Simple enough.
The revolving door to the underworld's gotta go
So Kabuto and Orochmaru both have to die, taking all trace of that ability with them. Again, reasonably simple.
Naruto's character polarization has to go.
So Kishi basically has to break him. Making him less of a symbolic Gary Stu and more of a believable person. In conjunction with Sauskes death or the Kyuubi's this would doable but difficult. Both would really be best, which still leaves the challenge of making a character defined by never giving up, fall into despair. To do that without losing Naruto's appeal would be extremely hard to do well, but I don't see much alternative at this point.
The scale has got to shrink for a while, at least until the story gets back on it's feet.
If this war arc has taught me one thing is that Kishi is not good at telling "epic" stories. So I think it's important to get back to something with a more narrow and personal in focus. Instead of saving the world maybe focus Naruto on saving "friends" or "his home" rather than broad ideals for a while. I think this is pretty easily done too.
So when I look at those targets, and the likely situation at the end of war arc, I think the best way to do it would probably be an ambush on the remnants of the shinobi alliance while they are weak and vulnerable by a third party who blame shinobi for all the destruction of this war and all the others before it. An alliance of smaller villages, the daimyo, a big powerful shinobi clan that nobody ever mentioned before now; doesn't really matter as long as they can scatter what little is left of the alliance and put whatever left of the heavy hitters out of commission. Leaving the good guys on the run and the bad guys hunting them.
Then you'd have a smaller arc. Where a powered down Naruto and some of his allies have to make it back to Konoha while ducking pursuit.
Along the way, it would be pretty easy to fix what needs fixing regarding character dynamics and Naruto himself.
Sasuke could probably also be saved if he went the "loses his eyes but survives while everybody thinks he's dead" route (possibly memory loss thrown in for good measure). Ends up starting up a new life in a fishing village somewhere, or something, for a little while. That way everything could be done that needs to and he could be transitioned back smoothly to something a little milder or at the very least more human.
Last edited by Jammin; October 16, 2013 at 11:50 PM.
And then the whole Itachi thing happened, and Sasuke's character more resembled that of his teammates. This is one of my major problems with his character at this point. There was no point to his progression to madness other than murdering Danzo. What's worse Kishimoto made him justified in the action given how he portrayed the aforementioned character. There was nothing to come of it, any suspense that we could have had for the upcoming war and which side Sasuke would've chosen was gone the second that he met Itachi. We all knew it, but we held out hope anyway.
As far as changing things goes. My opinion kind of matches those of other people in that the changes would have to be way before this war. This, would be one of them. If I progress a character to a certain point I would not regress a character or reverse a character's decisions for the sake of the story. The characters progression would stay as such and the story will move on from there. This is one of my major issues with Kishimoto's writing. He progresses a character to a certain point for a purpose and then regresses or reverses that character depending upon the situation because it's either funny or convenient.
That, along with Edo Tensei, has to go. It's one of the major things that I cannot stand. I understand the demographic and all that nonsense. Hell, he's made it massively apparent at this point. However, no one had to use that excuse back in the day.
Last edited by KiSwordsman; October 20, 2013 at 07:14 PM.
You know... I am starting to think you people read Naruto with the sole reason to have something to complain about. Then again its really irrelevant to me what you people complain about, personally I am going to enjoy the manga for what it is for years to come (or how long until it ends).
Now just to be on topic... How "would I save it"? I can't save it as it does NOT need saving. The manga is still going strong. Strong enough to have so many people THAT HATE IT to KEEP READING IT. Yeah its doing THAT good.
Moderator message by: GatsIf you read carefully the title of the thread, it is obviously one welcoming people who have something to complain about that manga. If you can't bear criticism you are free to skip it and read the other ones.
As I said elsewhere, criticizing is fine but lately I noticed a rise of...colorful language which doesn't add anything to the quality of your contributions or the discussion itself. I know that many people are quite frustrated because of the recent events in the narutoverse but have in mind that we are in a forum where all kind of opinions are coexisting, so we are also counting on you to not give in at your frustration in a way that would jeopardize the discussion or simply the point you are trying to make.
On a side note : you also have a nice little report button just over the Post Thanks/Like one.
Now kishi is still trying to make it seem like he has that same character by making him drop hints every now and then that he's going to try and kill Naruto, but it's not the same as when he was ACTUALLY cold and bloodthirsty after danzou/after getting his new eyes.
Kishi is a totally different beast. His style is very muted compared to Kubo's flamboyance and Oda's party-on-every-page. Most aspects of his style are more grounded in reality, something that's even reflected in his palette (which the anime utterly fails at replicating). He can even make some of the most brain-splittingly bad writing beautiful in execution- Tobi's origin story immediately springs to mind. The plot was crumbling like a controlled demolition but Kishi could still make a blood-splattered Obito wistfully holding dead Rin an extremely (if only purely) visually stunning piece. I do miss the art of Part I though. Part II just looks too... clean, for lack of a better word.
That said, this story's plot is deader than dead. I don't see any curve balls coming beside a little more illumination on the lives of Kaguya/Hagoromo/his sons and if we're lucky, something meaningfully linking the ancient past to the present time besides that dumb tablet. Unless something drastically awesome happens, I'm just looking forward to the art by this point.
---------- Post added at 12:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:21 AM ----------
- Uchiha/Senju being explicitly descended from So6P two sons who were explicitly endowed with matching powers.
- Naruto's entire lineage debacle, including the Uzumaki being ANYTHING but a no-name clan.
- Had Naruto given in to hatred like Gaara did, he could have met his parents as a child instead of never even being told so much as their names for 15 years.
- Jiraiya not at least attempting to teach Naruto Sage Mode when jinchuuriki training failed.
- Jiraiya never so much as introducing himself to Naruto for the first 12 years of his life, despite being his godfather.
- Sasuke's madness amounting to nothing beyond a device to justify a non-existent antagonism with Naruto.
- Sealing being incredibly complicated, but having no real consistency in how it works. It's the most annoyingly magical thing in the story.
- The entire presence of prophecy in a story about defeating destiny and breaking the cycle of hatred embedded into the future by the past.
Man that last one really burns. How can we believe in the 'genius of hard work' if Naruto's only succeeded because 1) he has the perfect lineage to do the things he's done, and 2) he is literally destined to do so.
Last edited by badluckartist; October 26, 2013 at 11:28 PM.
madara takes over sasuke's body
^ Probably creating an even bigger mess. How? (An ET zombie taking over a body is unheard of, which would just cause screaming "asspull!".) Why? (Why not just take over Juubito, or Naruto while he's at it?) It's precisely because of weird plot elements like this that Naruto's going down the drain.
Also, I don't see how the "So6P, bijuu being part of the juubi which is the full form of the gedo mazou which is actually the shinju" matches up with the tone set in Chapter 1. For me, it is far too epic a storyline. It is not that I mind the SOT6P or Juubi as individual items in a story. However, it is what they have now become, and the way that they tie everything together - as they are literally related to EVERY LITTLE THING in the manga - that annoys me.
For example, having the SOT6P as a mythical creator of ninjutsu is fine - it was cool with Pain having his powers (but taking on a bad rather than a good persona).
Having the Jyuubi being the whole of all the bijuu is also not so bad (though I would prefer them to be individual, I can live with it).
There are too many mythical things for my liking.
Part 1 was about ninjas, part 2 is about gods...