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Translations: Gintama 507 (2)
However in your previous post, you questioned whether that would apply to blades and projectile. I am telling you that it won't. Byakuya's Shikai cannot be absorbed because it is made of blades which is matter/physical, not energy/magical. Additionally there is also a limit to how much it can absorb. It is actually stated that he can't absorb Yama's Shikai when Yama increases the amount of power behind it, so he is forced to actually dodge.
Byakuya's Shikai is comparable to another anime character, his name being Gaara from Naruto Shippuden. It has great offensive and defensive power. Without having a 360 defense, powerful enough offense, or hax abilities, it will be incredibly difficult to win. Yama for example has a hax ability where his Shikai could essentially just burn through Byakuya's Shikai no problem. An example of a powerful enough offense would be Gin's Shikai which can essentially pierce through anything at long distances, meaning Byakuya would be forced to actually dodge, and lastly for 360 defense, simply Ichigo swinging his blade defensively in Bankai form or Kenpachi using his Spirit Pressure to protect himself would be enough.
Byakuya's Bankai simply increases the quantity of his Shikai unless he uses his ultimate. His ultimate however is mainly only used to trap fast/agile enemies such as Ichigo, nothing really more to it than that.
Kenpachi has already fought him by the way. During the Arrancar/Mundo Arc. This was of course after he tanked 2 Espada, Nnoitra and Yammy. Granted that they tag teamed Yammy, Kenpachi had already dealt fair amount of damage and took a fair amount of damage. R1 Yammy of course worth noting to be the most powerful Espada in terms of Spirit Pressure besides R2 Ulquiorra (their rankings by the way are based upon base-R1, not R2 which only Ulquiorra has achieved, it is basically the equivalent for Hollow vs Shinigami who have Base-Shikai then Bankai).
Regardless they fought and came back to SS, equally injured, implying it was a stalemate.
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---------- Post added at 09:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:46 PM ----------
Visored hold the edge due to Hollowification and Senior due to being more experienced/reaching their potential. Zenpachi can be stupid, but not that stupid to not dodge when he needs to and he actually would be fine against Gin considering he prefers sword fights anyways.
Last edited by TisForTat; October 14, 2013 at 07:49 PM.
Well here is what I think... I'm naming them according to what I think about their raw power/reiatsu & shikai
Unohana (She clearly states in her battle vs Kenpachi that nobody is stronger than her)
Aizen (with Hogyoku)
Urahara (for obvious reasons I can't put anyone on top of him, It doesn't matter if the enemy overpower him... hi will just invent a kido to take him away...)
Isshin (battle vs Aizen says it all)
Aizen (no hogyoku?
Yoruichi (my bet is that she might be as powerful as Urahara, but she's to much of a ??? for now)
Shunsui (the guy beat the primera espada without bankai... I believe is "loss" against Aizen is just plot, but taking facts I will put him here, I believe is above Isshin)...
Shinji (I don't think his Shikai can be beaten by someone without some intelligence or at least calm in a battle to analyze the situation).
Byakuya (we don't know how he will come back)
Toshiro (yes I know his shikai/bankai thing... but Shunsui states "he need another 100 years". Right now I don't know where to put him, he may be above Rose/Love)
Ukitake (just because of his illness, he should be in par with Shunsui)
I believe that those who have use bankai already are weaker than those who have not, why?, obviously those who haven't are powerful enough in Shikai... example... Shunsui, Rose & Love vs Stark
Yep. One blow from Senbonzakura (when he could've attacked him continuously) shredded through As Nodt's Blut. http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/496/7Originally Posted by vanyar
As Nodt is without a doubt captain class in power. If Byakuya can cut through his defense (a defense that perfectly blocks Renji's shikai), then an attack against his vitals would do significant damage (after multiple blows ofcourse).
He also blocked a strike from Mask, but he did no damage. Not like he couldn't if he wanted to though.
Ganju isn't even lieutenant class, but he was one-shotted. I'd say that's a significant degree.
It also blocked Tsukishima's sword, who is arguably the second most powerful Fullbringer, who is also without a doubt captain class in power: http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/464/18 That isn't dealing damage, but it's proof that if a captain (or a captain's fans) thought they were gonna just walk right through Senbonzakura's attacks like they were nothing, then they are clearly, horribly... hilariously deluded.
I will also point out that by the logic of the manga Senbonzakura is more powerful than Byakuya's sealed zanpakuto. Anything that Byakuya's base sword can cut, his Shikai can cut just as, if not more, easily. You can't possibly believe that Byakuya's sealed zanpakuto isn't powerful enough to cut captain class foes. If Hisagi's shikai can pierce through Hollowfied Tousen's neck (and he's only a lieutenant) then there's no reason to believe that Byakuya's shikai couldn't do the same when you consider the level of power difference between captains and lieutenants.
Though all of this raises the question of why we're focusing on his shikai so much when that's far from all Byakuya brings to the battlefield. He's used a low rank kidou to completely disable Ichigo. He's used a mid tier kidou to disrupt and damage Renji's Bankai. He's extremely fast, has tons of reiatsu, and can take a beating. There's nothing he's not impressive at.
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Byakuya and Kenpachi didn't fight each other in any way, shape, or form. Certainly not after after fighting Yammi.Originally Posted by TisForTat
Last edited by ninjabot; October 14, 2013 at 10:10 PM.
When Yama died and her statement clearly wasn't about everyone in the manga.Quote:
-Keny (as sad as it is and as inconclusive as his fight in Unohana is its still Kubos intention to make him a monster for some reason)
-Unohana and Isshin (yeah I put them at the same spoot and I put Aizen higher because we had no signs of him using KS agains Isshin)
( Yes I put Kisuke under Yoru since other than Kido he is yet to show the power to instantly came up with an attack that can do some sirious damage.... I will put Shun and Uki here with him, I also put thessai here although I think I should put him with Unohana and Isshin and I pretty much put them very very close to Aizen..... Hacchi was already hax with his kido and could make some nice trick in an instant.... I really can't ait for Tessai to fight since he should be able to do some crazy shit.
-Sexfon9 (Yes I put her so high. With her speed and power like Shunko and her hax shikai I really can't see captains in Shikai wining agains her. Even the Visoreds, but I put them VERY CLOSE to her)
-I put the Visoreds here.... All of them.... I don't really see what shinji showed to be considered Higher than anyone. He has a tricky ability, but with the right use of some kido or a good ability his Shikai should be negated to some degree.... Both Kensei and Rose have some good abilities that could prevent Shinji from comming to close to them and Since he isnt really a power based fighter he wil have problems if comming close can mean that he can be injured badly...
Now I will do something special
- Gin, Byakuya, Toshiro, Tossen, Seijin and Mayuri.... All of them have aspects that are helpfull in battle..... No once have anything super outstanding....
People Rate gin really high, but what he really showed with his shikai that a cpatain class guy shouldn't be able to deal with.... He just have a shikai that can extend in a single direction.... He showed nothing whatever when it comes to other abilities....
Byakuya have a good shikai, is pretty fast and have good kido, he is all rounded.... However he also doesnt have anything outstanding.... As nice as Senbonzakura is I can see shikais like Hyorrimmaru or Tengen or Tosen's hndreds of blades attack just going right through it.... as for kido captains who are not as good as Byakuya should still be able to deal with itt since its not like Byakuya is firing 90 lor high 80 level hado out of his arse...
Tosen just like Byakuya showed some nice skill in all areas except for for Hakuda....
Sejin have a strong Shikai and he is ridiculously durable, he isnt slow by any means and have good reflex I don't see anything that the others can throuw at him that can posese a sirious threat
Mayuri of course I rate the scientists with no prep time.... However Mayuri have his boy modifications and his shikai is dangerous for everyone and he surelly can deal with a lot of thing even with no prep....
Ok As I said Scientists with no prep time
As for Toshiro's claim... Its hard to really tel what he mean..... No matter what the rule of "bankai ioncrease the power by 5 to 10 time must still be followed..... So lets say that Toshiro have more ice in his Bankai, that aitomaticaly means that he have 10000000000 of more options as to what he can do. The ice is created with reiatsu so his attack have more reiats..... There is no way that the increase in power isnt awesome....
The only thing that doesn't change is that Toshiro can still perform pretty powerful techs in his Bankai and that he can create a lot of different attacks.... People like Byakuya can't do much with their shikai.... He is lmited to pretty much just one way of fighting, Sajin have a lot less power with his shikai, Tosen have completely uber upgrade in Bankai, the same goes for Mayuri, Sexfon have an uber anount of power in Bankai, Hin have an uber increase in speed and power by extension as also hax ability.... Toshiro on te other hand still can do a lot of things in his shikai, but he won't be higher than the others since ge lacks in other qualitise
In regards to Tsukishima, he had a powerful ability but the Fullbringers as a whole were not that powerful. Even Ginjo didn't come close to the Captains in terms of power. While Tsukishima had a good ability, his physical attributes didn't get a power up. So saying that Byakuya's Shikai blocked Tsukishima's sword is not a feat, imo.
On the flip side, he has to fight weaker level opponents with his Bankai. He has no feats against strong opponents in Shikai, even opting to use his Bankai against Renji. His Kido also didn't even faze Yammy.
I've zero clue what the relevance of Hollow regeneration is.
As for Shunsui v Unohana, Shunsui hasn't OHKO anyone with his shikai, although against weaker opponents the potential exists. And against someone of Unohana's skill and endurance, she isn't going down in a single blow. Seeing as she's capable of healing herself, that is almost certainly going to be necessary to defeat her. And I could discuss Shunsui's ability, its strengths and weaknesses endlessly, but I don't see the point. But considering that Shunsui's games require close-combat fighting, and he loses the advantage of his superior knowledge of the games as time goes on, Unohana is probably one of the worst opponents for him. He hasn't shown anything to suggest he could defeat her. As for Yama, I included him with Unohana to simply make clear that they were the two individuals I considered superior to him, allow me to assure you I have little intention of debating over Yama's status.
Last edited by Impossibility; October 15, 2013 at 11:51 AM.
Because he used it to block his strike, not attempt to hurt him. My point was that Byakuya managed to defend against a Sternritter with only his Shikai despite you believing it's weak.Originally Posted by vanyar
Testament to Byakuya's power. He managed to cut through As Nodt's Blut easily, despite As Nodt attempting to tank the blow. Mask asked him why he allowed his Blut to be torn so easily because he thought the only reason he managed to cut through it is because he dropped his guard, which wasn't the case, as the look of shock on As Nodt's face proves. As Nodt was shocked because he was lead to believe that Byakuya would need Bankai to do any significant damage, and he was proven wrong.Quote:
Which is entirely irrelevant considering he's not fighting with just shikai. Not to mention if he can cut him once, he can cut him more times. You have canon proof right there that Senbonzakura>As Nodt's Blut. The only way my "assumption" could be wrong is if As Nodt was responsible for his Blut being torn by deliberately holding back (which is not what happened, as we know, canonically, that he was tanking shikai level attacks inorder to force his opponents to reveal their bankai so that he can steal them).Quote:
Never came close to damaging a high level opponent with Shikai... yet he tore through As Nodt's Blut easily.Quote:
Never did it... but did it in the very first reply I made.
Any foe wielding strong enough reiatsu to cut a Captain class opponent is relevant. Any foe. Even if they're fleshy humans who can't endure damage the way shinigami and arrancar can, they can still dish it out.Quote:
You're again limiting Byakuya's zanpakuto to basic Kenpachi-style logic. "Either I hit harder than you do, or I'm worthless." That's not the strength of Senbonzakura or SKY. It's strength comes from it's speed and ability to attack from any angle. He has the power to stab you in your weak points continuously, defend and attack at the same time, and do it all from range.Quote:
Before claiming that attacking someone's vitals or weakpoints doesn't matter, I'll point out that if a shinigami's soul sleep is severed, they can never be a shinigami again.
You've stated it before, and you were wrong every single time, and continue to be so. Byakuya's bankai doesn't have trouble finishing high level foes. Byakuya is limited by plot.Quote:
You have yet to explain to me why, despite As Nodt hitting Byakuya several times with SKY and proving it's canonically possible, Byakuya always stops hitting his foes after one blow from SKY. If he had hit any of the opponents you listed as often as he wanted, they would have been abominated.
Wait a second: let's use your logic for a second. You claim that Byakuya's bankai is weak because he hits his foes once, and then stops his attack, resulting in them not being beaten into submission (apparently the only way to be considered powerful around here is to one-shot your opponents). He's weak, because he's holding back. But you praise Kenpachi for holding back.
Why the double standard? Why is Kenpachi holding back fine, but Byakuya holding back not fine?
"aneewon cen sweeng a soord" I guess being Captain is the same as fodder according to you. It is the basic requirement to know how to handle their Zan to a master level, unlike the other 3 skills which aren't necessary to master to be a captain.
"lolnop Yoriuchi haz nuffin tu du wif Kisuke" Did you even read/watch the flashback arc? Under her, he was trained at Shunpo and Taijutsu. He was among the 2nd squad and he was their jailor, which wasn't allowed to use weapons. Then of course was given recommendation by Yoiriuchi to be Captain of the 12th squad, then he passed the tests, established the Technological Bureau, and was later discharged due to be framed by Aizen. Even the frigging ugly Lt of 2nd squad is highly skilled at Shunpo and he's fodder, hence 2nd squad has everything to do with him reflecting Kisuke's skill.
"dar wuz nuffin he cud du tu OHKO Aizen eva undurr anee sircumstanstz" Did you even read chapters 402-403 or watch episode 300? No, just stop if you are going to deny what he is capable of. Read or watch either, enjoy the enlightenment.
"how duz Hollow reejinurayshen haz aneeding tu du wif dis" Healing of any kind, whether it is natural regeneration or from kaido functions the same way... they both heal... As I hope you realize, in order to stop something from just healing over and over, is to actually kill/defeat it rather than only injure it. This is common sense. Being able to OHKO means you can do exactly that.
Last edited by TisForTat; October 15, 2013 at 12:37 PM.
This is mindless nonsense. You claimed that each captain was a Zanjutsu master, suggesting that Unohana's mastery was insignificant. I pointed out that captains are largely masters of each of the broader shinigami arts, there are obviously large differences in these levels of mastery. Handling a Zan doesn't make one a master of Zanjutsu. And mastery of Zanjustu is no more a requirement than any of the other arts; the requirements are either to defeat a captain thereby taking their place, or the mastery of bankai, neither speak to Zanjutsu.Quote:
He was trained by Yoruichi, so what? That doesn't somehow change what we've seen of him, or give him the abilities that Yoruichi has shown. Ukitake and Shunsui are students of Yamamoto, I don't see anyone declaring them masters of anything and everything because of that. He was recommended to be a captain, so what? It's kind of irrelevant when everyone being considered is, in fact, a captain. He established a tech division, we know he's intelligent, that isn't being questioned. Omaeda has absolutely nothing to do with Kisuke, and for the record, his Shunpo hasn't been indicated to be superior to the other VCs. Does Kenpachi get another upgrade in power because his 3rd seat is capable of bankai? No, he doesn't. So I definitely don't see how the abilities of a VC of a division Kisuke was in over a century ago somehow indicates anything about Kisuke. Most of your support for Kisuke is based on the accomplishments and abilities of others.Quote:
And not once was on OHKO even close in open battle. If you wish to make claims, do so, but have some support.Quote:
Yes, healing is important, considering Unohana. However, why were Hollows necessary in the discussion? Everyone knows that Unohana can heal herself endlessly, why mention Hollow regeneration in a manner that suggested you were saying something useful.Quote:
It might limit the force of her blows, but it doesn't make her less of a zanjutsu master. Her power not only comes from raw strength, but her skill and knowledge. Whether or not Unohana is physically stronger than Shunsui, as you point out, becomes largely irrelevant, but she is undoubtedly better with just a blade, it is what her reputation and status is built on. Shunsui's shikai puts it down to a battle of blades, that's a battle he's going to lose against Unohana every time. Try to kill her from a far, take her out with a blast, end her quickly, but getting down to an old-fashioned sword fight with Unohana is only going to get you killed.Quote:
Last edited by Impossibility; October 15, 2013 at 02:25 PM.
I'm not going to hold your hand to figure out what I said that has been already very simplified for you understand. Basically you are labeling everything is irrelevant and/or credited to others.
Just read/watch it. It is fairly clearly shown what would've happened if Aizen didn't have Hog. And what else happens in later chapters/episodes on top of this feat. Do not discuss this until you have done so and come back. If you still wish to deny it, then at that point you are pretty much trolling.
Healing = Healing. Healing > injury. Death > healing. Examples = Examples. Common...sense. Simple...logic.
Last edited by TisForTat; October 15, 2013 at 02:09 PM.
Yama said that he thought the two strongest captains after him were shunsui and joshiro(and he knew about joshiro's illness), though this is when uohanna wasn't fighting, since shunsui and joshiro call her senpai. Aizen was stronger then every captain besides yama(he admitted that yama has more spirit power than himself), and zaraki's true power is stronger than uohanna with bankai. Based on the battles we've seen and comments from the captains themselves
Everyone else after them
the only way this is false is if every character has lied to the readers about how strong everyone is
Maybe because you keep on mentioning Yoruichi, and then somehow even made it to Omaeda, as though it has some relevance.Quote:
Nope. Not once did Urahara do anything that was close to a OHKO against Aizen. The only attacks Urahara displayed that even appeared to have an effect whatsoever during their battle was Urahara's initial surprise attack, and then the use of the seals. What makes your claims more ridiculous is that Urahara had backup in the form of Yoruichi and Isshin for the entirety of that battle. What you're suggesting just isn't the case. As for later chapters, Kisuke hasn't had a real battle since the Fake Karakura Town arc, so just stop.Quote:
Once again, pointing out the obvious. None of this explains why Hollow regeneration was ever touched on, other than to take up space.Quote: