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Thread: Ranking of Captains - No Bankai

  1. #16
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Ranking of Captains - No Bankai

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    That doesn't negate anything I said. I said that in all of those instances Byakuya hit the opponent once, and then stopped.

    When he grazed Yammi, what did he do immediately after? He stopped attacking. He could have continued his attack, over and over, against all of his vitals.

    When he hit Ichigo with SKY, what did he do after? He stopped attacking. He could have continued slamming walls and walls of SKY ontop of him once he was crushed into the ground, yet he opted not to.

    When he hit Ichigo with Senkei, all he did was stabbed him in the foot... and then switched to using Byakurai. He also opted not to crush him with every single sword. This is another example of plot necessitating a lapse in lethality from Byakuya.

    When he hit Zommari with Gokei, what did he do after? He stopped attacking. He could have continued crushing him, grinding him, and twisting his blades around in a tornado-like formation. But he didn't.

    Senbonzakura is without a doubt weaker than SKY, and has less blades than SKY, but still has the ability to attack anywhere Byakuya wants, as many times as Byakuya wants. This is why it's terrifying.



    Again, my point is, Ichigo could only tank attacks from Byakuya that subside after one blow. Do you honestly believe with any certainty that after Byakuya smashed him into the ground... that if he wanted to keep attacking him, Ichigo could do anything whatsoever to stop him? Let alone any other opponent?

    As for Zommari, I'm not sure you understand what it means to tank an attack. When you tank a blow, you endure it's full power and can still fight at your best. Zommari lost all of his eyes after one blow from Byakuya's bankai, and couldn't do anything but one last ditch Amor. Once that was negated the fight was over. Any situation where you endure a blow and the fight is over the second after you endure that blow, you did NOT perform your duties as a tank, lmao.



    I'm well aware of both of these points. There was no need to specify because once again, I'm not referring to sheer damage potential in a single blow. That's not where Senbonzakura, or even SKY's strengths, lie. It lies in Byakuya's ability to attack any part of his opponent that he wants to, from any angle, as many times as he damn well pleases.


    Ever heard of the term "DPS"? It stands for damage per second. Byakuya may not be able to nuke a person in one blow, but he can tear them into nothing over time. And it's horrifying because there isn't anything the opponent can do if they can't block every area on their body at all times (something none of the mid tier captains can do). This is why his attacks have to be limited to one-shot attacks, followed by Byakuya spitting out a monologue about how much better he is than everyone around him. Because he needs limitations. No one would enjoy his fights otherwise because they would all come down to:

    Byakuya hits opponent for little damage.
    Byakuya dodges.
    Byakuya hits opponent for little damage.
    Byakuya dodges.
    Byakuya hits worn down opponent with killing blow now that their stamina has been drained.
    Fight over.

    That's how it'd go against Hitsugaya. Soi Fon. And especially Kenpachi, thanks to absolutely no ranged options and canon showing of inferior speed to Byakuya. Yes with just Shikai. All the power in the world is absolutely worthless in a fight where you can't touch your foe. Kenpachi can endure tons of damage, but time will take it's toll. From all the reiatsu he'd waste swinging at an untouchable foe, to all the bloodloss from innumerable cuts, ( Senbonzakura would take both his eyes early in the fight). High level kidou would weaken him and eventually a sealed Senbonzakura would take his head. The one chance Kenpachi would get to actually lay a hand (or blade) on Byakuya would be wasted on an Utsusemi too.
    I will sum up my argument briefly, can you demonstrate that Byakuya's Shikai can damage anyone to a significant degree?

  2. #17
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner
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    Re: Ranking of Captains - No Bankai

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    That's not what I was implying, or meant to imply at least. I meant attacks that were coated in reiatsu. I was referring to something like an un-launched Getsuga Tensho, or Yamamoto's Zanka no tachi.



    Byakuya's bankai isn't great offensively because it has to be limited for the sake of the plot. If it worked the way it's supposed to... well, he'd be unstoppable by anyone other than the most hax of foes. They both tanked one strike from SKY. That's why I took the liberty of showing that Byakuya isn't limited to hitting the opponent once by showing what As Nodt did in those scans. If need be he can hit them over and over again in rapid succession, just like how As Nodt did Byakuya.

    Not to mention, Zommari didn't tank the blow. He hid inside of the pumpkin around his legs and used it as a makeshift barrier, which allowed him to survive the blow, even though it severely weakened him. Had he not had a giant hierro shield nearby to jump inside he would've been flayed into nothing. And Ichigo survived because, once again, Byakuya chose to stop hitting him after the first blow connected, so that he could wax poetic about how awesome he was.

    Byakuya's bankai is only limited by the necessities of plot, and since he has the same level of control over his shikai as he does his bankai, the same limitations apply. If he hits you once, then he can hit you twice, thrice, as many times as he wants, unless you have access to a 360 degree defense, or you have speed comparable to Bankai Ichigo. This, in conjunction with everything else in his repertoire, is why he can't realistically lose a fight to anyone in the mid tier list. Not Kenpachi, not Hitsugaya, not Soi Fon.
    Yes he can absorb energy based attacks through one blade and fire it back out almost instantly out the other. There isn't a debate about that... that's what his Shikai is.

    However in your previous post, you questioned whether that would apply to blades and projectile. I am telling you that it won't. Byakuya's Shikai cannot be absorbed because it is made of blades which is matter/physical, not energy/magical. Additionally there is also a limit to how much it can absorb. It is actually stated that he can't absorb Yama's Shikai when Yama increases the amount of power behind it, so he is forced to actually dodge.

    Byakuya's Shikai is comparable to another anime character, his name being Gaara from Naruto Shippuden. It has great offensive and defensive power. Without having a 360 defense, powerful enough offense, or hax abilities, it will be incredibly difficult to win. Yama for example has a hax ability where his Shikai could essentially just burn through Byakuya's Shikai no problem. An example of a powerful enough offense would be Gin's Shikai which can essentially pierce through anything at long distances, meaning Byakuya would be forced to actually dodge, and lastly for 360 defense, simply Ichigo swinging his blade defensively in Bankai form or Kenpachi using his Spirit Pressure to protect himself would be enough.

    Byakuya's Bankai simply increases the quantity of his Shikai unless he uses his ultimate. His ultimate however is mainly only used to trap fast/agile enemies such as Ichigo, nothing really more to it than that.

    Kenpachi has already fought him by the way. During the Arrancar/Mundo Arc. This was of course after he tanked 2 Espada, Nnoitra and Yammy. Granted that they tag teamed Yammy, Kenpachi had already dealt fair amount of damage and took a fair amount of damage. R1 Yammy of course worth noting to be the most powerful Espada in terms of Spirit Pressure besides R2 Ulquiorra (their rankings by the way are based upon base-R1, not R2 which only Ulquiorra has achieved, it is basically the equivalent for Hollow vs Shinigami who have Base-Shikai then Bankai).

    Regardless they fought and came back to SS, equally injured, implying it was a stalemate.

    ---------- Post added at 08:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:38 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Not sure if this is enough to warrant a thread of its own, but I don't see any apparent reason to merge threads, since the other thread has been inactive for some time now. If it doesn't get bumped up out of nowhere, shouldn't be much of a problem.

    Onto the topic at hand, it's not any easier to judge captains without Bankai, either, since there are a lot of characters who hasn't shown a Bankai yet. So, for instance, we don't know how fighting with and without Bankai effects Kyouraku in terms of power. Captains like Byakuya, Hitsugaya or Komamura wouldn't change their fighting styles altogether, since their Bankai is more of a volume related power boost. On the other hand, Gin would lose a lethal one-shot kill ability, and Tousen would lose an all-senses manipulation ability, therefore, it's safe to assume they lose more. However, that alone cannot determine their rank amongst all.

    I think there is no real reason to challenge Captain-Commander's #1 status. Not even Aizen wanted to take him head on in a fair fight. With his difficult to read and even more difficult to handle Shikai technique, Aizen ranks #2. I also have no doubts that no one will topple Kyouraku from #3, since the captain commander position is a symbol of power, above anything else that can be a factor. Ukitake and Unohana would wrap up the top five, for the fact that the former is considered to be an equal of Kyouraku's in terms of power, while the latter is one of the few people who has the techniques to end a fight without a Bankai.
    I believe anything below that rank is almost purely subjective perception. I don't think a fight between two captains can be easily determined with Shikai alone. I'd probably rank Shinji a tad above the rest, for that his Shikai also manipulates optical sense, which is another troublesome ability.
    Agreed except the Shinji part. Shinji's Shikai is a one trick pony. It is inferior to Tousen's Bankai and further inferior to Aizen's Shikai. Rather than removing or falsifying senses, it disorients them. Most importantly it only affects vision whereas the others affect 4 or all 5 senses. It isn't that amazing of a Shikai, especially if Shinji is plot stupefied to explain how it works.

    ---------- Post added at 09:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:46 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MBVC View Post
    Since nobody defends for Gin because he died, then I'll cover this part.

    Page 14-15 of chapter 377.

    This is good enough to cross out Kensei, Rose, Love and Kenpachi who doesn't take damage from weaklings but Gin's shikai is powerful enough to make a hole through his big body all thanks to Kenpachi hates playing dodge ball of any kind.
    He is certainly stronger than average captains, however I would not rank him above the Visored and Senior Captains. I would not rank him above Kenpachi either despite his tendency to f*ck around.

    Visored hold the edge due to Hollowification and Senior due to being more experienced/reaching their potential. Zenpachi can be stupid, but not that stupid to not dodge when he needs to and he actually would be fine against Gin considering he prefers sword fights anyways.
    Last edited by TisForTat; October 14, 2013 at 07:49 PM.

  3. #18
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member raikwolf's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains - No Bankai

    Well here is what I think... I'm naming them according to what I think about their raw power/reiatsu & shikai

    First half:
    Kenpachi
    Unohana (She clearly states in her battle vs Kenpachi that nobody is stronger than her)
    Yama-ji
    Aizen (with Hogyoku)
    Urahara (for obvious reasons I can't put anyone on top of him, It doesn't matter if the enemy overpower him... hi will just invent a kido to take him away...)
    Isshin (battle vs Aizen says it all)
    Aizen (no hogyoku?
    Yoruichi (my bet is that she might be as powerful as Urahara, but she's to much of a ??? for now)
    Shunsui (the guy beat the primera espada without bankai... I believe is "loss" against Aizen is just plot, but taking facts I will put him here, I believe is above Isshin)...
    Shinji (I don't think his Shikai can be beaten by someone without some intelligence or at least calm in a battle to analyze the situation).
    Second Half:
    Gin

    Rose/Love
    Kensei
    Byakuya
    (we don't know how he will come back)
    Toshiro
    (yes I know his shikai/bankai thing... but Shunsui states "he need another 100 years". Right now I don't know where to put him, he may be above Rose/Love)
    Komamura/Tosen
    Soifon
    Mayuri
    Ukitake
    (just because of his illness, he should be in par with Shunsui)


    I believe that those who have use bankai already are weaker than those who have not, why?, obviously those who haven't are powerful enough in Shikai... example... Shunsui, Rose & Love vs Stark


  4. #19
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains - No Bankai

    Quote Originally Posted by vanyar
    I will sum up my argument briefly, can you demonstrate that Byakuya's Shikai can damage anyone to a significant degree?
    Yep. One blow from Senbonzakura (when he could've attacked him continuously) shredded through As Nodt's Blut. http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/496/7

    As Nodt is without a doubt captain class in power. If Byakuya can cut through his defense (a defense that perfectly blocks Renji's shikai), then an attack against his vitals would do significant damage (after multiple blows ofcourse).

    He also blocked a strike from Mask, but he did no damage. Not like he couldn't if he wanted to though.

    Ganju isn't even lieutenant class, but he was one-shotted. I'd say that's a significant degree.

    It also blocked Tsukishima's sword, who is arguably the second most powerful Fullbringer, who is also without a doubt captain class in power: http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/464/18 That isn't dealing damage, but it's proof that if a captain (or a captain's fans) thought they were gonna just walk right through Senbonzakura's attacks like they were nothing, then they are clearly, horribly... hilariously deluded.

    I will also point out that by the logic of the manga Senbonzakura is more powerful than Byakuya's sealed zanpakuto. Anything that Byakuya's base sword can cut, his Shikai can cut just as, if not more, easily. You can't possibly believe that Byakuya's sealed zanpakuto isn't powerful enough to cut captain class foes. If Hisagi's shikai can pierce through Hollowfied Tousen's neck (and he's only a lieutenant) then there's no reason to believe that Byakuya's shikai couldn't do the same when you consider the level of power difference between captains and lieutenants.

    Though all of this raises the question of why we're focusing on his shikai so much when that's far from all Byakuya brings to the battlefield. He's used a low rank kidou to completely disable Ichigo. He's used a mid tier kidou to disrupt and damage Renji's Bankai. He's extremely fast, has tons of reiatsu, and can take a beating. There's nothing he's not impressive at.

    ---------- Post added at 03:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:44 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by TisForTat
    Regardless they fought and came back to SS, equally injured, implying it was a stalemate.
    Byakuya and Kenpachi didn't fight each other in any way, shape, or form. Certainly not after after fighting Yammi.
    Last edited by ninjabot; October 14, 2013 at 10:10 PM.

  5. #20
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Re: Ranking of Captains - No Bankai

    Quote Quote:
    Unohana (She clearly states in her battle vs Kenpachi that nobody is stronger than her)
    When Yama died and her statement clearly wasn't about everyone in the manga.
    Quote Quote:
    1. Aizen
    2. Yama
    3. Kisuke
    4. Shunsui
    5. Retsu
    6. Shinji
    7. Isshin
    8. Yoruichi
    9. Kenpachi
    10. Kensei
    11. Rose
    12. Love
    13. Soifon
    14. Gin
    15. Byakuya
    16. Toshiro
    17. Tosen
    18. Sajin
    19. Jushiro
    20. Mayuri
    -Yama...clearly
    -Aizen
    -Keny (as sad as it is and as inconclusive as his fight in Unohana is its still Kubos intention to make him a monster for some reason)
    -Unohana and Isshin (yeah I put them at the same spoot and I put Aizen higher because we had no signs of him using KS agains Isshin)
    -Yoru
    ( Yes I put Kisuke under Yoru since other than Kido he is yet to show the power to instantly came up with an attack that can do some sirious damage.... I will put Shun and Uki here with him, I also put thessai here although I think I should put him with Unohana and Isshin and I pretty much put them very very close to Aizen..... Hacchi was already hax with his kido and could make some nice trick in an instant.... I really can't ait for Tessai to fight since he should be able to do some crazy shit.
    -Sexfon9 (Yes I put her so high. With her speed and power like Shunko and her hax shikai I really can't see captains in Shikai wining agains her. Even the Visoreds, but I put them VERY CLOSE to her)
    -I put the Visoreds here.... All of them.... I don't really see what shinji showed to be considered Higher than anyone. He has a tricky ability, but with the right use of some kido or a good ability his Shikai should be negated to some degree.... Both Kensei and Rose have some good abilities that could prevent Shinji from comming to close to them and Since he isnt really a power based fighter he wil have problems if comming close can mean that he can be injured badly...
    Now I will do something special
    - Gin, Byakuya, Toshiro, Tossen, Seijin and Mayuri.... All of them have aspects that are helpfull in battle..... No once have anything super outstanding....
    People Rate gin really high, but what he really showed with his shikai that a cpatain class guy shouldn't be able to deal with.... He just have a shikai that can extend in a single direction.... He showed nothing whatever when it comes to other abilities....
    Byakuya have a good shikai, is pretty fast and have good kido, he is all rounded.... However he also doesnt have anything outstanding.... As nice as Senbonzakura is I can see shikais like Hyorrimmaru or Tengen or Tosen's hndreds of blades attack just going right through it.... as for kido captains who are not as good as Byakuya should still be able to deal with itt since its not like Byakuya is firing 90 lor high 80 level hado out of his arse...
    Tosen just like Byakuya showed some nice skill in all areas except for for Hakuda....
    Sejin have a strong Shikai and he is ridiculously durable, he isnt slow by any means and have good reflex I don't see anything that the others can throuw at him that can posese a sirious threat
    Mayuri of course I rate the scientists with no prep time.... However Mayuri have his boy modifications and his shikai is dangerous for everyone and he surelly can deal with a lot of thing even with no prep....

    Ok As I said Scientists with no prep time
    As for Toshiro's claim... Its hard to really tel what he mean..... No matter what the rule of "bankai ioncrease the power by 5 to 10 time must still be followed..... So lets say that Toshiro have more ice in his Bankai, that aitomaticaly means that he have 10000000000 of more options as to what he can do. The ice is created with reiatsu so his attack have more reiats..... There is no way that the increase in power isnt awesome....
    The only thing that doesn't change is that Toshiro can still perform pretty powerful techs in his Bankai and that he can create a lot of different attacks.... People like Byakuya can't do much with their shikai.... He is lmited to pretty much just one way of fighting, Sajin have a lot less power with his shikai, Tosen have completely uber upgrade in Bankai, the same goes for Mayuri, Sexfon have an uber anount of power in Bankai, Hin have an uber increase in speed and power by extension as also hax ability.... Toshiro on te other hand still can do a lot of things in his shikai, but he won't be higher than the others since ge lacks in other qualitise

  6. #21
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Ranking of Captains - No Bankai

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    Yep. One blow from Senbonzakura (when he could've attacked him continuously) shredded through As Nodt's Blut. http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/496/7

    As Nodt is without a doubt captain class in power. If Byakuya can cut through his defense (a defense that perfectly blocks Renji's shikai), then an attack against his vitals would do significant damage (after multiple blows ofcourse).

    He also blocked a strike from Mask, but he did no damage. Not like he couldn't if he wanted to though.
    As you stated his Shikai did nothing against Mask. After it cut As Nodt, Mask told him to not let his blut get torn so easily. Also your assumption that his Shikai could do significant damage eventually to As Nodt is contrary to what Byakuya himself states when he says that the SR are not the type of opponent that can be beaten with Shikai.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    Ganju isn't even lieutenant class, but he was one-shotted. I'd say that's a significant degree.

    It also blocked Tsukishima's sword, who is arguably the second most powerful Fullbringer, who is also without a doubt captain class in power: http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/464/18 That isn't dealing damage, but it's proof that if a captain (or a captain's fans) thought they were gonna just walk right through Senbonzakura's attacks like they were nothing, then they are clearly, horribly... hilariously deluded.
    As you state Ganju isn't even Lieutenant class. He was fodder. I understand you wanted to show that he could damage someone to a significant degree but my point in asking you was to highlight he has never come close to damaging a high level opponent with his Shikai, as it would be relevant to the discussion. Considering Ganju isn't even VC class, it's a moot point.

    In regards to Tsukishima, he had a powerful ability but the Fullbringers as a whole were not that powerful. Even Ginjo didn't come close to the Captains in terms of power. While Tsukishima had a good ability, his physical attributes didn't get a power up. So saying that Byakuya's Shikai blocked Tsukishima's sword is not a feat, imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    I will also point out that by the logic of the manga Senbonzakura is more powerful than Byakuya's sealed zanpakuto. Anything that Byakuya's base sword can cut, his Shikai can cut just as, if not more, easily. You can't possibly believe that Byakuya's sealed zanpakuto isn't powerful enough to cut captain class foes. If Hisagi's shikai can pierce through Hollowfied Tousen's neck (and he's only a lieutenant) then there's no reason to believe that Byakuya's shikai couldn't do the same when you consider the level of power difference between captains and lieutenants.
    The problem with that is, Byakuya's shikai disperses into tiny little petals. So while it may not be weaker than his sealed Zanpakuto, the power is distributed over a wider range. This is how Byakuya's Bankai works also, his Bankai's attack power increases as the blades condense, so the more he spreads out the blades, the weaker it becomes offensively. As I have stated before, Byakuya's Bankai has trouble finishing high level foes, Shikai Ichigo, Zommari, Yammy. He even used his Bankai against Renji. So he can't finish high level opponents with his Bankai and his Shikai is significantly weaker. I thnk it's baseless to assume that he could do anything to a Captain level opponent with his Shikai, even over time as you say.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    Though all of this raises the question of why we're focusing on his shikai so much when that's far from all Byakuya brings to the battlefield. He's used a low rank kidou to completely disable Ichigo. He's used a mid tier kidou to disrupt and damage Renji's Bankai. He's extremely fast, has tons of reiatsu, and can take a beating. There's nothing he's not impressive at.
    Well it's important to discuss his Shikai as his fighting style revolves around his Bankai. He hasn't shown anything that suggests he could fight high level opponent's without it. He used a low rank Kido after Ichigo was impaled by Senkei. Ichigo could still fight afterwards, so it's not really a feat. He used a mid tier kido to disrupt the flow of Renji's Bankai, which considering Renji's level at that time and the fact Byakuya himself states that Renji's Bankai is underdeveloped isn't impressive.

    On the flip side, he has to fight weaker level opponents with his Bankai. He has no feats against strong opponents in Shikai, even opting to use his Bankai against Renji. His Kido also didn't even faze Yammy.

  7. #22
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Sanadan's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains - No Bankai

    Quote Originally Posted by MBVC View Post
    Since nobody defends for Gin because he died, then I'll cover this part.

    Page 14-15 of chapter 377.

    This is good enough to cross out Kensei, Rose, Love and Kenpachi who doesn't take damage from weaklings but Gin's shikai is powerful enough to make a hole through his big body all thanks to Kenpachi hates playing dodge ball of any kind.
    I feel so excluded
    Meh

  8. #23
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    Re: Ranking of Captains - No Bankai

    Quote Originally Posted by TisForTat View Post
    All captains are default Zanjutsu masters, a few such as Zenpachi more so, Kisuke was formerly the 12th captain. Then there is the fact that Kisuke was also formerly trained under Koyuichi in the 2nd squad who specialize in Shunpo and the fact that he used to be the "babysitter" who specialize in Taijutsu. Now there is the other fact that there is several feats including the most impressive feat during Aizen's fight before AND after with Kido. Now we consider the fact that is the most intelligent (not the most experienced though) Bleach character and an even better inventor than Aizen and Mayuri.

    Being a master at every Shinigami skill + inventions, we have seen him to have potentially OHKO Aizen if he wasn't fused with the Hog, then there's the simple fact that he does eventually defeat Hog Aizen with help from Ichigo.

    "Kisuke sux, nowai he cud OHKO aneewon, lolnop!" I rest my case.

    Hollows with High Regeneration can be beaten in two ways. OHKO/killing them very quickly or hax "viral" abilities. 3 examples of what Hax "viral" abilities would be are Yama's Shikai, #2 Espada's Release, and Mayuri's Bankai.

    Unohana fights only with Kido and her base Zanjutsu (her Shikai has no battle presence and OP said no Bankai allowed). Her kido is mainly for healing, although she is certainly capable of using it for seals, barriers, and destruction spells. Regardless to beat someone that heals their injuries, you must outright take them out or they'll continue to heal. That being said, Shunsui specializes in OHKO with his Shikai. With that in mind, I find it highly improbable that he'd lose. It wouldn't be a roflstomp, but it wouldn't be an even fight either.

    I never referred to Yama in regards to either of the above being able OHKO him. Yama is well aware of Shunsui's abilities, after all he is his teacher and although he is not as intelligent as Kisuke, he has thousands of years of experience on him. That being said, Yama IS top dog. Therefore there is no disagreement and pointless mentioning to me if we already agreed on this single point.
    The first paragraph seems wholly irrelevant. The same comments about Zanjutsu could be applied to any shinigami art. The fact that Yoruichi utilises Shunko has absolutely nothing to do with Kisuke. His kido against Aizen was impressive, no one's disputing that. His status as an inventor is also irrelevant unless you can point to some specific invention on his person that is going to allow him to OHKO a senior captain, like you stated. There was nothing shown where Kisuke showed the potential to OHKO Aizen in battle, you seem to be rewriting the manga. And his 'defeat' of Aizen required the presence of a godly Ichigo to weaken Aizen to the point that his kido could take effect, so let's not make it seem as though Ichigo didn't do most of the heavy lifting. I've never suggested Kisuke is weak, as your somewhat childish comment suggests, I simply suggested that he wasn't a match for the senior captains; and that he was most definitely incapable of a OHKO on any of them. Kisuke hasn't shown anything to suggest he could take down the seniors.

    I've zero clue what the relevance of Hollow regeneration is.

    As for Shunsui v Unohana, Shunsui hasn't OHKO anyone with his shikai, although against weaker opponents the potential exists. And against someone of Unohana's skill and endurance, she isn't going down in a single blow. Seeing as she's capable of healing herself, that is almost certainly going to be necessary to defeat her. And I could discuss Shunsui's ability, its strengths and weaknesses endlessly, but I don't see the point. But considering that Shunsui's games require close-combat fighting, and he loses the advantage of his superior knowledge of the games as time goes on, Unohana is probably one of the worst opponents for him. He hasn't shown anything to suggest he could defeat her. As for Yama, I included him with Unohana to simply make clear that they were the two individuals I considered superior to him, allow me to assure you I have little intention of debating over Yama's status.
    Last edited by Impossibility; October 15, 2013 at 11:51 AM.

  9. #24
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    Re: Ranking of Captains - No Bankai

    Quote Originally Posted by vanyar
    As you stated his Shikai did nothing against Mask.
    Because he used it to block his strike, not attempt to hurt him. My point was that Byakuya managed to defend against a Sternritter with only his Shikai despite you believing it's weak.

    Quote Quote:
    After it cut As Nodt, Mask told him to not let his blut get torn so easily.
    Testament to Byakuya's power. He managed to cut through As Nodt's Blut easily, despite As Nodt attempting to tank the blow. Mask asked him why he allowed his Blut to be torn so easily because he thought the only reason he managed to cut through it is because he dropped his guard, which wasn't the case, as the look of shock on As Nodt's face proves. As Nodt was shocked because he was lead to believe that Byakuya would need Bankai to do any significant damage, and he was proven wrong.

    Quote Quote:
    Also your assumption that his Shikai could do significant damage eventually to As Nodt is contrary to what Byakuya himself states when he says that the SR are not the type of opponent that can be beaten with Shikai.
    Which is entirely irrelevant considering he's not fighting with just shikai. Not to mention if he can cut him once, he can cut him more times. You have canon proof right there that Senbonzakura>As Nodt's Blut. The only way my "assumption" could be wrong is if As Nodt was responsible for his Blut being torn by deliberately holding back (which is not what happened, as we know, canonically, that he was tanking shikai level attacks inorder to force his opponents to reveal their bankai so that he can steal them).

    Quote Quote:
    As you state Ganju isn't even Lieutenant class. He was fodder. I understand you wanted to show that he could damage someone to a significant degree but my point in asking you was to highlight he has never come close to damaging a high level opponent with his Shikai, as it would be relevant to the discussion. Considering Ganju isn't even VC class, it's a moot point.
    Never came close to damaging a high level opponent with Shikai... yet he tore through As Nodt's Blut easily.

    Never did it... but did it in the very first reply I made.

    Sigh.

    Quote Quote:
    In regards to Tsukishima, he had a powerful ability but the Fullbringers as a whole were not that powerful. Even Ginjo didn't come close to the Captains in terms of power. While Tsukishima had a good ability, his physical attributes didn't get a power up. So saying that Byakuya's Shikai blocked Tsukishima's sword is not a feat, imo.
    Any foe wielding strong enough reiatsu to cut a Captain class opponent is relevant. Any foe. Even if they're fleshy humans who can't endure damage the way shinigami and arrancar can, they can still dish it out.

    Quote Quote:
    The problem with that is, Byakuya's shikai disperses into tiny little petals. So while it may not be weaker than his sealed Zanpakuto, the power is distributed over a wider range. This is how Byakuya's Bankai works also, his Bankai's attack power increases as the blades condense, so the more he spreads out the blades, the weaker it becomes offensively.
    You're again limiting Byakuya's zanpakuto to basic Kenpachi-style logic. "Either I hit harder than you do, or I'm worthless." That's not the strength of Senbonzakura or SKY. It's strength comes from it's speed and ability to attack from any angle. He has the power to stab you in your weak points continuously, defend and attack at the same time, and do it all from range.

    Before claiming that attacking someone's vitals or weakpoints doesn't matter, I'll point out that if a shinigami's soul sleep is severed, they can never be a shinigami again.

    Quote Quote:
    As I have stated before, Byakuya's Bankai has trouble finishing high level foes, Shikai Ichigo, Zommari, Yammy. He even used his Bankai against Renji. So he can't finish high level opponents with his Bankai and his Shikai is significantly weaker. I thnk it's baseless to assume that he could do anything to a Captain level opponent with his Shikai, even over time as you say.
    You've stated it before, and you were wrong every single time, and continue to be so. Byakuya's bankai doesn't have trouble finishing high level foes. Byakuya is limited by plot.

    You have yet to explain to me why, despite As Nodt hitting Byakuya several times with SKY and proving it's canonically possible, Byakuya always stops hitting his foes after one blow from SKY. If he had hit any of the opponents you listed as often as he wanted, they would have been abominated.

    Wait a second: let's use your logic for a second. You claim that Byakuya's bankai is weak because he hits his foes once, and then stops his attack, resulting in them not being beaten into submission (apparently the only way to be considered powerful around here is to one-shot your opponents). He's weak, because he's holding back. But you praise Kenpachi for holding back.

    Why the double standard? Why is Kenpachi holding back fine, but Byakuya holding back not fine?

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    Re: Ranking of Captains - No Bankai

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    The first paragraph seems wholly irrelevant. The same comments about Zanjutsu could be applied to any shinigami art. The fact that Yoruichi utilises Shunko has absolutely nothing to do with Kisuke. His kido against Aizen was impressive, no one's disputing that. His status as an inventor is also irrelevant unless you can point to some specific invention on his person that is going to allow him to OHKO a senior captain, like you stated. There was nothing shown where Kisuke showed the potential to OHKO Aizen in battle, you seem to be rewriting the manga. And his 'defeat' of Aizen required the presence of a godly Ichigo to weaken Aizen to the point that his kido could take effect, so let's not make it seem as though Ichigo didn't do most of the heavy lifting. I've never suggested Kisuke is weak, as your somewhat childish comment suggests, I simply suggested that he wasn't a match for the senior captains; and that he was most definitely incapable of a OHKO on any of them. Kisuke hasn't shown anything to suggest he could take down the seniors.

    I've zero clue what the relevance of Hollow regeneration is.

    As for Shunsui v Unohana, Shunsui hasn't OHKO anyone with his shikai, although against weaker opponents the potential exists. And against someone of Unohana's skill and endurance, she isn't going down in a single blow. Seeing as she's capable of healing herself, that is almost certainly going to be necessary to defeat her. And I could discuss Shunsui's ability, its strengths and weaknesses endlessly, but I don't see the point. But considering that Shunsui's games require close-combat fighting, and he loses the advantage of his superior knowledge of the games as time goes on, Unohana is probably one of the worst opponents for him. He hasn't shown anything to suggest he could defeat her. As for Yama, I included him with Unohana to simply make clear that they were the two individuals I considered superior to him, allow me to assure you I have little intention of debating over Yama's status.
    No, it is not irrelevant by any means. It establishes where his skills are at, in which case he is jack of all trades, with a particularly ridiculous amount of skill at Kido.

    "aneewon cen sweeng a soord" I guess being Captain is the same as fodder according to you. It is the basic requirement to know how to handle their Zan to a master level, unlike the other 3 skills which aren't necessary to master to be a captain.

    "lolnop Yoriuchi haz nuffin tu du wif Kisuke" Did you even read/watch the flashback arc? Under her, he was trained at Shunpo and Taijutsu. He was among the 2nd squad and he was their jailor, which wasn't allowed to use weapons. Then of course was given recommendation by Yoiriuchi to be Captain of the 12th squad, then he passed the tests, established the Technological Bureau, and was later discharged due to be framed by Aizen. Even the frigging ugly Lt of 2nd squad is highly skilled at Shunpo and he's fodder, hence 2nd squad has everything to do with him reflecting Kisuke's skill.

    "dar wuz nuffin he cud du tu OHKO Aizen eva undurr anee sircumstanstz" Did you even read chapters 402-403 or watch episode 300? No, just stop if you are going to deny what he is capable of. Read or watch either, enjoy the enlightenment.

    "how duz Hollow reejinurayshen haz aneeding tu du wif dis" Healing of any kind, whether it is natural regeneration or from kaido functions the same way... they both heal... As I hope you realize, in order to stop something from just healing over and over, is to actually kill/defeat it rather than only injure it. This is common sense. Being able to OHKO means you can do exactly that.
    Last edited by TisForTat; October 15, 2013 at 12:37 PM.

  11. #26
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    Re: Ranking of Captains - No Bankai

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    The first paragraph seems wholly irrelevant. The same comments about Zanjutsu could be applied to any shinigami art. The fact that Yoruichi utilises Shunko has absolutely nothing to do with Kisuke. His kido against Aizen was impressive, no one's disputing that. His status as an inventor is also irrelevant unless you can point to some specific invention on his person that is going to allow him to OHKO a senior captain, like you stated. There was nothing shown where Kisuke showed the potential to OHKO Aizen in battle, you seem to be rewriting the manga. And his 'defeat' of Aizen required the presence of a godly Ichigo to weaken Aizen to the point that his kido could take effect, so let's not make it seem as though Ichigo didn't do most of the heavy lifting. I've never suggested Kisuke is weak, as your somewhat childish comment suggests, I simply suggested that he wasn't a match for the senior captains; and that he was most definitely incapable of a OHKO on any of them. Kisuke hasn't shown anything to suggest he could take down the seniors.
    Being pretty much a master at everything and probably the most intelligent man in the series, I think he deserves a top spot. I'm not saying for a certainty that he would win, far from it, but I do think he has shown as much, if not more than the Seniors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    As for Shunsui v Unohana, Shunsui hasn't OHKO anyone with his shikai, although against weaker opponents the potential exists. And against someone of Unohana's skill and endurance, she isn't going down in a single blow. Seeing as she's capable of healing herself, that is almost certainly going to be necessary to defeat her. And I could discuss Shunsui's ability, its strengths and weaknesses endlessly, but I don't see the point. But considering that Shunsui's games require close-combat fighting, and he loses the advantage of his superior knowledge of the games as time goes on, Unohana is probably one of the worst opponents for him. He hasn't shown anything to suggest he could defeat her. As for Yama, I included him with Unohana to simply make clear that they were the two individuals I considered superior to him, allow me to assure you I have little intention of debating over Yama's status.
    My problem with this is that while Unohana would be more powerful than Shunsui, his Shikai negates her overwhelming strength by forcing her to play his games.

  12. #27
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    Re: Ranking of Captains - No Bankai

    Quote Originally Posted by TisForTat View Post
    No, it is not irrelevant by any means. It establishes where his skills are at, in which case he is jack of all trades, with a particularly ridiculous amount of skill at Kido.
    It establishes the skills of others; for example the other captains and Yoruichi for the most part.

    Quote Quote:
    "aneewon cen sweeng a soord" I guess being Captain is the same as fodder according to you. It is the basic requirement to know how to handle their Zan to a master level, unlike the other 3 skills which aren't necessary to master to be a captain.
    This is mindless nonsense. You claimed that each captain was a Zanjutsu master, suggesting that Unohana's mastery was insignificant. I pointed out that captains are largely masters of each of the broader shinigami arts, there are obviously large differences in these levels of mastery. Handling a Zan doesn't make one a master of Zanjutsu. And mastery of Zanjustu is no more a requirement than any of the other arts; the requirements are either to defeat a captain thereby taking their place, or the mastery of bankai, neither speak to Zanjutsu.

    Quote Quote:
    "lolnop Yoriuchi haz nuffin tu du wif Kisuke" Did you even read/watch the flashback arc? Under her, he was trained at Shunpo and Taijutsu. He was among the 2nd squad and he was their jailor, which wasn't allowed to use weapons. Then of course was given recommendation by Yoiriuchi to be Captain of the 12th squad, then he passed the tests, established the Technological Bureau, and was later discharged due to be framed by Aizen. Even the frigging ugly Lt of 2nd squad is highly skilled at Shunpo and he's fodder, hence 2nd squad has everything to do with him reflecting Kisuke's skill.
    He was trained by Yoruichi, so what? That doesn't somehow change what we've seen of him, or give him the abilities that Yoruichi has shown. Ukitake and Shunsui are students of Yamamoto, I don't see anyone declaring them masters of anything and everything because of that. He was recommended to be a captain, so what? It's kind of irrelevant when everyone being considered is, in fact, a captain. He established a tech division, we know he's intelligent, that isn't being questioned. Omaeda has absolutely nothing to do with Kisuke, and for the record, his Shunpo hasn't been indicated to be superior to the other VCs. Does Kenpachi get another upgrade in power because his 3rd seat is capable of bankai? No, he doesn't. So I definitely don't see how the abilities of a VC of a division Kisuke was in over a century ago somehow indicates anything about Kisuke. Most of your support for Kisuke is based on the accomplishments and abilities of others.

    Quote Quote:
    "dar wuz nuffin he cud du tu OHKO Aizen eva undurr anee sircumstanstz" Did you even read chapters 402-403 or watch episode 300? No, just stop if you are going to deny what he is capable of. Read or watch either, enjoy the enlightenment.
    And not once was on OHKO even close in open battle. If you wish to make claims, do so, but have some support.

    Quote Quote:
    "how duz Hollow reejinurayshen haz aneeding tu du wif dis" Healing of any kind, whether it is natural regeneration or from kaido functions the same way... they both heal... As I hope you realize, in order to stop something from just healing over and over, is to actually kill/defeat it rather than only injure it. This is common sense. Being able to OHKO means you can do exactly that.
    Yes, healing is important, considering Unohana. However, why were Hollows necessary in the discussion? Everyone knows that Unohana can heal herself endlessly, why mention Hollow regeneration in a manner that suggested you were saying something useful.


    Quote Originally Posted by vanyar View Post
    Being pretty much a master at everything and probably the most intelligent man in the series, I think he deserves a top spot. I'm not saying for a certainty that he would win, far from it, but I do think he has shown as much, if not more than the Seniors.
    He's a captain, a talented one. The only shinigami art in which he's shown himself to be amongst the best of the best is kido. And of course, Kisuke's intellect is powerful, but even that has its limits. He's shown quite a bit, but I don't see any of what he's shown being capable of bringing down the senior captains.

    Quote Quote:
    My problem with this is that while Unohana would be more powerful than Shunsui, his Shikai negates her overwhelming strength by forcing her to play his games.
    It might limit the force of her blows, but it doesn't make her less of a zanjutsu master. Her power not only comes from raw strength, but her skill and knowledge. Whether or not Unohana is physically stronger than Shunsui, as you point out, becomes largely irrelevant, but she is undoubtedly better with just a blade, it is what her reputation and status is built on. Shunsui's shikai puts it down to a battle of blades, that's a battle he's going to lose against Unohana every time. Try to kill her from a far, take her out with a blast, end her quickly, but getting down to an old-fashioned sword fight with Unohana is only going to get you killed.
    Last edited by Impossibility; October 15, 2013 at 02:25 PM.

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    Re: Ranking of Captains - No Bankai

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    It establishes the skills of others; for example the other captains and Yoruichi for the most part.



    This is mindless nonsense. You claimed that each captain was a Zanjutsu master, suggesting that Unohana's mastery was insignificant. I pointed out that captains are largely masters of each of the broader shinigami arts, there are obviously large differences in these levels of mastery. Handling a Zan doesn't make one a master of Zanjutsu. And mastery of Zanjustu is no more a requirement than any of the other arts; the requirements are either to defeat a captain thereby taking their place, or the mastery of bankai, neither speak to Zanjutsu.



    He was trained by Yoruichi, so what? That doesn't somehow change what we've seen of him, or give him the abilities that Yoruichi has shown. Ukitake and Shunsui are students of Yamamoto, I don't see anyone declaring them masters of anything and everything because of that. He was recommended to be a captain, so what? It's kind of irrelevant when everyone being considered is, in fact, a captain. He established a tech division, we know he's intelligent, that isn't being questioned. Omaeda has absolutely nothing to do with Kisuke, and for the record, his Shunpo hasn't been indicated to be superior to the other VCs. Does Kenpachi get another upgrade in power because his 3rd seat is capable of bankai. Half of your support for Kisuke is based on the accomplishments and abilities of others.



    And not once was on OHKO even close in open battle. If you wish to make claims, do so, but have some support.



    Yes, healing is important, considering Unohana. However, why were Hollows necessary in the discussion? Everyone knows that Unohana can heal herself endlessly, why mention Hollow regeneration in a manner that suggested you were saying something useful or that required more than the least bit of intellect to be able to consider.
    Afraid not, every captain has the same degree of mastery except Unohana and Zenpachi who I already established earlier specialize at Zanjutsu. Mastery is by default among captains which only a handful of non-captains have achieved this feat, regardless specialization is a different case altogether which is obviously better than default. I did not even state Kisuke was better at Zanjutsu than Zenpachi or Unohana which you are trying to imply, I stated he is a master of such which is one of the staple points in my statement that he is a jack of all trades.

    I'm not going to hold your hand to figure out what I said that has been already very simplified for you understand. Basically you are labeling everything is irrelevant and/or credited to others.

    Just read/watch it. It is fairly clearly shown what would've happened if Aizen didn't have Hog. And what else happens in later chapters/episodes on top of this feat. Do not discuss this until you have done so and come back. If you still wish to deny it, then at that point you are pretty much trolling.

    Healing = Healing. Healing > injury. Death > healing. Examples = Examples. Common...sense. Simple...logic.
    Last edited by TisForTat; October 15, 2013 at 02:09 PM.

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    Re: Ranking of Captains - No Bankai

    Yama said that he thought the two strongest captains after him were shunsui and joshiro(and he knew about joshiro's illness), though this is when uohanna wasn't fighting, since shunsui and joshiro call her senpai. Aizen was stronger then every captain besides yama(he admitted that yama has more spirit power than himself), and zaraki's true power is stronger than uohanna with bankai. Based on the battles we've seen and comments from the captains themselves

    1.Yama
    2.Aizen
    3.Zaraki
    4.Uohanna
    5.Shunsui
    6.Joshiro
    Everyone else after them

    the only way this is false is if every character has lied to the readers about how strong everyone is

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    Re: Ranking of Captains - No Bankai

    Quote Originally Posted by TisForTat View Post
    Afraid not, every captain has the same degree of mastery except Unohana and Zenpachi who I already established earlier specialize at Zanjutsu. Mastery is by default among captains which only a handful of non-captains have achieved this feat, regardless specialization is a different case altogether which is obviously better than default. I did not even state Kisuke was better at Zanjutsu than Zenpachi or Unohana which you are trying to imply, I stated he is a master of such which is one of the staple points in my statement that he is a jack of all trades.
    Where are you making this stuff up from? Every captain has the same degree of mastery except Unohana and Kenpachi? That statement alone makes it clear that you've no clue. Didn't ever imply that you suggested Kisuke was a better Zanjutsu user, if I'd though you had made such a ridiculous suggestion, I would've pointed out rather blatantly.

    Quote Quote:
    I'm not going to hold your hand to figure out what I said that has been already very simplified for you understand. Basically you are labeling everything is irrelevant and/or credited to others.
    Maybe because you keep on mentioning Yoruichi, and then somehow even made it to Omaeda, as though it has some relevance.

    Quote Quote:
    Just read/watch it. It is fairly clearly shown what would've happened if Aizen didn't have Hog. And what else happens in later chapters/episodes on top of this feat. Do not discuss this until you have done so and come back. If you still wish to deny it, then at that point you are pretty much trolling.
    Nope. Not once did Urahara do anything that was close to a OHKO against Aizen. The only attacks Urahara displayed that even appeared to have an effect whatsoever during their battle was Urahara's initial surprise attack, and then the use of the seals. What makes your claims more ridiculous is that Urahara had backup in the form of Yoruichi and Isshin for the entirety of that battle. What you're suggesting just isn't the case. As for later chapters, Kisuke hasn't had a real battle since the Fake Karakura Town arc, so just stop.

    Quote Quote:
    Healing = Healing. Healing > injury. Death > healing. Examples = Examples. Common...sense. Simple...logic.
    Once again, pointing out the obvious. None of this explains why Hollow regeneration was ever touched on, other than to take up space.

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