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Somebody outside the legion
Tell me, how could he possibly have formed a better plan with what he had? And how is it possible to prevent the chance soldiers dying in vain? If the mission fails, they will have died in "vain". If it succeeds they wont have. This is true in most battles. Without risking all those soldiers dying, they could not make any kind of plan to advance. You need to understand that soldier lives can be meaningless in a sense. If they go all out and die, the end result will be the same as if they don't try in the first place. The only logical thing to do is to continue fighting.
Also, you don't seem to understand what the Survey Corps do. If you payed attention to the narrator I believe they said that the RECON corps, do RECON (OMG). Levi and Hanji weren't just killing random Titans. The Legion was setting up refueling stations/bases outside the walls as part of a long plan to retake Maria. In order to do that they had to kill every Titan in the area of course. As well as study Titans in their natural environment. Heck, they may have done it if they didn't have to go back to the walls after the breach. Do you expect them to not try to reclaim Maria while people are starving inside? The Legion don't use the exact same plan every time either.
How many times will you have me repeat myself? It doesn't matter if she used something unpredictable, that's the point. Don't sacrifice people challenging someone you have no idea what they can do. His plan FAILED. It was stated that the plan failed. It doesn't matter if she pulled new abilities, it's his fault for engaging and attempting the most difficult scenario (capturing) against an enemy that he barely knows about. If he had retreated, he would've formed a better plan because Armin's group had knowledge on her. You don't seem to understand battle strategies at all. And if you think you can prove a point by randomly repeating wrong information, then quit it. Repeating wrong things doesn't make them right.Quote:
Any plan, is a better plan. Retreat, talk to Armin, find out that she can harden her skin, intelligent, that she's possibly Annie, that she can call Titans. Armin figured all of that from the first minutes of their encounter. Then initiate a plan to capture Annie, but this time, with your strongest members alive. Or here's another one. A new enemy appeared, an extremely dangerous one, go for the goddamn kill instead of throwing lives based on an ignorant assumption that you can catch her in the middle of a Titan-infested forest. It's possible to prevent them dying in vain, by not rushing.Quote:
The results? How many areas did they recover in their decades? How did killing random Titans help? What did they discover? Nothing. No matter how awesome you make it sound, they were failing for decades and they were doing the exact same thing. Also, the plan to retake Maria, existed after the fall of Maria, no shit. Before that? Retarded running outside the walls for decades. Retrieving Wall Maria has nothing to do with the overall goal of the Survey Corps' very existence. Levi and Hanji were killing Titan's in a certain area to retrieve Maria? How will killing Titans in a TITAN INFESTED area stop more from coming? That's like trying to empty a spot in the ocean with a water bottle.Quote:
Last edited by KingOfNight; October 21, 2013 at 11:11 AM.
You aren't listening to me. His PLAN was sound, it FAILED based of unexpected powers of the enemy. Therefore Erwin's actual plan was fine (based on the info they had access to, it works. Any plan would have failed in this situation). There was no way they could have known about her ability to call Titans. If Erwin knew that Armin believed to have her ID he would have called a retreat. Shame he had no idea Armin Alert existed (he is just another solider). You now expect him to somehow predict that a solider knew who she was. In fact, if he had called the retreat all those would died would have been in vain because nothing would have happened. He called a retreat as soon as he believed the mission to have failed. Yes he engaged an enemy he knows nothing about. That was the only way to potentially learn about them. He used what he had to work out as much as they could. There's no where to go other than to engage.
You need to reread that arc. They didn't know she could harden her skin or call Titans until AFTER CAPTURING HER. And didn't work that out, all he knew was that it was Annie. He had NO IDEA who Armin even was, let alone that a random soldier would know the ID of the enemy. It would be plot-induced-intelligence for his to know to speak to Armin.
He assumed they could capture her, and he was right. Going of what he had, they should have got her. Even if she had powers it's impossible to know what. If they had gone for the kill straight away they would have lost all their best fighters (Levi's squad died because they didn't know of her abilities remember? Levi succeeded because he didn't underestimate her). And they wouldn't have known of these abilities until (guess what) after capturing her! And BTW, Erwin can't turn around to his troops and say "Be prepared because the enemy may have random powers to use in a fight" and that change anything. Without knowing what they can do, they are just as blind. And as I have said countless times, there is no way they would of known of these abilities without actually going out there to fight. So your plan (going straight for the kill when she appeared in the forest) would have likely failed as well, and all the soldiers that died would have still died.
Last edited by epictoads; October 21, 2013 at 11:15 AM.
It failed because of the impossible to predict. Why risk so many lives based on an assumption? Again, don't tell me he had to do something because otherwise he wouldn't gain anything. He did something, something stupid, risked the Corps getting annihilated, and failed. Why? Because there wasn't a ray of hope to begin with, shocking! That's no different from suiciding. He knew that so many have engaged her, that they have collected some information about her, a retreat is the most logical thing to do. Those who died, died in vain anyway because nothing happened. It's just that more died. You keep forgetting that he chose the most difficult scenario when he could have chosen easier ones.Quote:
They were passing information between each other. And going into battle with absolutely zero clues is even worse. Don't tell me he had to do something. He heard about how powerful she was, the most logical thing to do is to retreat, or at least, regroup.Quote:
He ASSUMED he could. If they had gone for the kill, Levi, Mikasa and Eren would have been enough. Yes actually, he can say that. Why can't he? It's far better than treating her like an ordinary Titan when she's CLEARLY not. They already engaged her. All the info they had was from the small exchange between her and Armin's team. They learned nothing from capturing her. Even her ability to call out Titan's was already discovered by Armin. He just didn't bother to retreat, regroup or anything at all. He just went a tried to capture her.Quote:
Well, I'm talking about the SC in general not the current one specifically. What could they establish in such a short time that Titan's can't bring down in seconds? You think they can just build things whenever they want? And what base could they build that will not be brought down in a minute? Even if the Titan's won't destroy it when they are not there, they will once they start using it. Not to mention that we've never seen them establish anything. Unless they build something on the three walls status, it's pointless.Quote:
Last edited by KingOfNight; October 21, 2013 at 11:46 AM.
As far as territories go I only mentioned it in regards to getting back the bit that was initially lost to the second attack by the colossal titan. You are the one that said "They didn't get any territories back because they're a bunch of idiots" when the actual reason is them not having the means to do so and it not being their actual immediate purpose. What other approach would you suggest? And to be fair nowadays scouting legion trips are not nearly as bad as the one about capturing annie or recovering eren. The long range detection formation irwin developed did apparently work fairly well and it was only because annie herself broke it that things got particularly bad during the mission.
What exactly do you propose as alternatives to what they have been doing though?
It's because when you mentioned it I thought it really was part of their goal (since it was said so in Wiki). Anything. I can't for sure tell you what kind of approach to use, but it's not like repeating the same thing (running around) would do anything. Not when it failed for decades. I don't live in their world so I can't give a proper alternative, though definitely not repeat the same thing for decades.Quote:
Her ability to call Titans had NOT been discovered by Armin. She attracted Titans is all, Eren does the same. No one knew she could call them all to frenzy. And accelerating healing and hardening skin would have given her the upper hand in a fight. And for the last time, HE HAD NO IDEA ARMIN HAD ANY INFORMATION, it would be impossible for him to decide what to do with a mission on the basis that he randomly though a single solider might have information. There was no direct relay between Armin and Erwin. So even if Armin did know everything about the Female Titan, how will Erwin know? If Armin went to Erwin and told him, maybe he would have altered the plan. But once again your idea revolves around Erwin having a time machine and somehow knowing Armin had crucial information. He can expect some soldiers to have seen her battle skills but not to that level. No one knew of her abilities until after the capture. In fact no one knows about her accelerated healing power still.
Last edited by epictoads; October 21, 2013 at 12:12 PM.
I checked the wiki but it also talks about "eventual" recovery of territory rather than currently recover territory. Well, its true they have been unsuccessful at this for decades however I don't think the manga has actually shown us better alternatives. The debate we are having now is probably something that has happened plenty of times in the manga.
People: Sending people out to the titan's territory is batshit stupid!
Scouting legion: Batshit stupid compared to what?
People: Da fug is that supposed to mean?
SL: Well, we have no intel, manpower or technology to fight the titans and we are living like cattle within these walls. We go to titan territory in hopes of gathering at least useful intel about them. What would your approach to do this be? Do you have the means to gather any sort of intel within the walls? Do you have a new way to combat or spy on them?
People: Well, no.....
SL: Are you suggesting we stop doing the only thing we have ever come up with to at least try to do something in favor of doing absolutely nothing?
People: Everything sounds bad if you put it like that.... Are you suggesting with a straight face we keep wasting lives?
SL (with an improbably even straighter face than before): YES. Unless you have an alternative that yields results.
Do you know when a retreat\regroup order is given? When something goes off from the original plan. This time, a HUGE thing went off. And he did nothing. He just went with the flow. Yes, the ones that already died would've died in vain. But at least not more will follow in utter vain. True, the bold part is true. But there was no guarantee (not even a tiny one) that he would get anything. And he didn't. Levi squad died in vain.Quote:
As I said above, something goes off, you call a retreat. The ones that died at first, didn't die because of him. An unexpected Titan appeared. The ones that died AFTER he refused to retreat, died in vain because of him. He may not know who Armin is, but he knows that dozens of soldiers fought her. Again, Armin knew how powerful she was. And Erwin must have knew something because he knew there was a human in there. Unless Armin's report reached him, he wouldn't have knew it was a Titan shifter.Quote:
Levi did defeat her. If they went for the kill, he would be there too. With Eren and Mikasa.Quote:
Armin knew that she somehow attracted tons of Titans. How he thought she did it doesn't matter, the effect is the same. And for the last time, RETREAT. Don't join battles randomly. Not when you have the lives of precious soldiers with you. If he had done the logical thing a leader would do when a plan goes off, and that's to retreat or regroup, he would have known better. Even if he didn't know of Armin, it would've been better to regroup instead of acting on his own. Again, why the rush? Why in such a hurry to die?Quote:
I would insist that you stop repeating yourself and actually read people's posts:Quote:
Last edited by KingOfNight; October 21, 2013 at 12:40 PM.
The problem with retreating when they heard the damage done to the right flank is that the FT's accomplice already gave the info that Eren is in the center rear. If they retreated, she would just easily blaze through all of the Survey Corps soldiers until she could get to Eren. And it would be extremely difficult to defend Eren, even for the top fighters(Levi squad+Mike) simply because they're at a disadvantage(no buildings or trees to attach to).
Also, like epictoads said, Erwin doesn't know Armin up until after the Titan Forest arc. Remember that the information passed was that the right flank was completely destroyed. The immediate assumption based on that information is that there were no survivors who engaged Female Titan amongst them. And like Armin said, the commander had to decide: Retreat hoping that at least there were survivors in the right flank and could give them the identity of the FT, or try to capture her with ultimately both having almost zero chances of success. It's all but a gamble and he also had to decide on the spot. Though I actually think he decided based on what sounds cool. XD
But really, the problem is the first paragraph though.
I think we're talking about the expedition...at least I hope we are.
Should there be a new thread created for this discussion? I mean I think we're derailing the thread. The question asked is who's the best candidate for commander of the Survey Corp, not how Erwin is a MF(be it bad or good).
I'll continue this later as I need to head to work, to me it can only be Nile.
---------- Post added October 23, 2013 at 07:08 AM ---------- Previous post was October 22, 2013 at 11:20 PM ----------
Okay gonna continue on.
First of all:
Erens Trial was about choosing to which branch he will be sent to but furthermore it was a mental battle between the two leaders of their factions.
Nile and Irvin.
Zacklay put Eren and his trust to Irvin and we saw the results in the latest chapters.Huge Losses.Eren was about to be taken again.Irvin lost an Arm.Scouting Legion is pretty much nearly wiped out to be bluntly honest.
It only makes sense to me that Zacklay is gonna regret his trial decision and appoint Nile for the sake of "actual results."
Besides, only Isayama knows just how many men died within the Scouting Legion. How many people are under Niles command?
5000.Even Pixis is below him.
More than enough to actually keep alive the Scouting Legion.I mean, how are they supposed to exist with such few people?Who are left?
Badly injured Mikasa.
A badly injured Hanji.
and a crippled Irvin.
We already saw that the MP had to fill spots in the mission to retrieve Eren cause they lacked Men and now they are nearly all wiped out.
The MP are the only ones with enough Soldiers and the Central had already decided that the MP need to get their shit together and fight on the front as well.
Personally I would LOVE it to be Anka though chances are slim though a definitely worthy candidate.
I would argue that the issue with nile is that he does not know anything about the scouting legion (at least as far as we know). The scouting legion works under dramatically different circumstances than the other military units. Something else worth considering here is that scouting legion members are not that easily replaceable, its not just about getting people there. Scouting legion members have already been shown to be significantly stronger than other military members on average. Scouting legion members have already shown to be rather adequate at killing titans while in turn the only thing people from other units do when faced with titans is die. Whoever replaces irwin, if he is replaced, has to be someone that can do better work than irwin when it comes to managing the scouting legion.
Would replacing irwin even do anything for that matter? The scouting legion has always had high mortality rates and without a doubt things are specially bad however there is a definite distinction between this being because irwin is in some form or context incompetent or because overnight being a member of the scouting legion became that much more dangerous. The scouting legion used to go exploring and simply dealt with regular titans however nowadays they are dealing with shifters. Shifters are almost impossible to deal with, even a rampaging eren was able to take on 20 titans on his own.
KingOfNight, that's incorrect. He gave the order to retreat as soon as the Female Titan was eaten. Uptil then the plan had gone as expected. So really he did exactly what ypu said he should, retreat once the plan failed. The only soldiers that died after that were Levi's squad and the ones that got nabbed on the way back (shown in the Anime). Erwin was expecting the Female Titan to arrive (well a Titan shifter, he didn't know what it would look like hence why he brought a ton of firepower to stop her). And if he retreated without learning anything (he can't just assume the soldiers who fought her would have all the info) then that would have meant that those troops would have died wiithout meaning. Are you trying to say that he should have retreated before they captured the Female Titan(?). That would have made the whole mission pointless "draw out enemy, let enemy take out troops, then retreat without gaining anything.
Also, Levi's squad died because they didn't know of all her strange powers like hard skin. Mikasa would've also died if Levi didn't save her, and she was only there because she heard Eren. Levi fought her when she was tired out and he knew of her weird powers. So if they had fought her straight away there's no guarantee they could win. And like I said above, that is a stupid plan because they wouldn't learn anything after sacrificing troops to get her there. If Erwin knew she would escape maybe he would have tried to kill her, but without a time machine he aint gonna know that. And they already knew Titan shifters attracted Titans, but they didn't know some can call them into a pirahna-like frenzy. So they had minimal information (none they couldn't already know from Eren) on the Female Titan prior to capturing her. So to use what you've said, that is not worth a huge portion of the SC dying, just to know she has similar powers to Eren? That's ALL that the soldiers like Armin knew (yes he had her believed ID but Erwin doesn't know that).
---------- Post added at 07:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:15 PM ----------
I actually think if anything Nile Dawk would be the last one put in command. The King was quite displeased in the MPs corruption and lack of discipline he intends on making some changes in the MPs and even ordered that they assist the SC in capturing the RB and rescuing Eren. After the mission I'm sure the MPs lack of combat ability will only further these changes since they are the last line of defense and are charged with defending the King and Nobility he will want to make sure they are able to do so since the Shifters can infiltrate and breach walls.
So while Erwin was forced to sacrificing many lives he was in a very short period of time able to:
Figure out there was another shifter, and that it was Annie.
Was able to successful devise a plan to capture her in the city with minimal casualties and damage despite fighting in the city.
Was able to figure out the identity of the Colossal and Armored Titan and almost kill them (had Mikasa not borked that up)
Was able to hunt them down and rescue Eren who is the key to humanities survivable and in the process unlocked a power that will completely change things to humanities favor to the point where normal titans may not even be a threat anymore.
If anything Erwin will return a hero, despite the massive loses they faced a powerful enemy they knew very little of and had to deal with insurmountable odds and yet still accomplished much of what they wanted. They have Eren back, they have Annie in custody and RB are long gone and they will be more then ready for them. If anything I see Erwin replacing Nile Dawk to help route out corruption in the MPs and bring disciple and honor to them.
Whoever it may be they have some big shoes to fill, Erwin did say that he already has a replacement ready to take over so only time will tell. Perhaps chapter 51 will give us a better picture.
Have we read too much into Erwin's line of "someone can replace me"? Can it just be a way of saying, "everyone is replaceable except for Eren"?