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Thread: Is the Bach of 1000 years ago (staying inside Ichigo) independent of the current Bach?

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    Is the Bach of 1000 years ago (staying inside Ichigo) independent of the current Bach?

    By depending on the way how we answer this question would imply whether the two Bach are able to commute with each other, this also means that the current Bach might have known about Ichigo new power up if the one inside Ichigo gives him this piece of information. If these two Bach stay disconnected then each of them may choose different successors from their different points of view. Of course the former one is Ichigo's #1 fan but the latter one might use Ishida as his new vessel for future plan.

    PS: This is only my opinion, the Bach of 1000 years ago seems "nicer" than the current "mean looking" Bach.

    Even gods could not be absolutely certain whether they existed at the most fundamental level of reality or were themselves simulated.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Exodi's Avatar
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    Re: Is the Bach of 1000 years ago (staying inside Ichigo) independent of the current Bach?

    The Ywhach inside of Ichigo isn't another Ywhach. He is a representation of the Quincy powers inside of Ichigo.

    He seems "nicer" for some reasons:

    1. He has to protect Ichigo. Ywhach (Ichigo's Quincy power) isn't Ywhach (the physical man), but he does have some sort of sentience, and he happens to reside within Ichigo. Ichigo is his home, thus is has to protect it. As a result, he seems "nice".

    2. He wants Ichigo to get stronger. If Ichigo is stronger, Ichigo has less chance of dying. Thus, Ywhach (Ichigo's Quincy power) has less chance of dying.


    I don't believe they can communicate with each other. However, I'm sure Ywhach (the man) has some awareness of Ichigo, and all of the Quincy that his blood flows through. I think it's been implied somewhere.

    So, to answer your question, I do think Ywhach (Ichigo's Quincy power) is independent of the man, as evidenced by him willingly offering up Ichigo's actual zanpakutou. Which he purposefully hiding for Ichigo's entire time as a shinigami.
    Last edited by Exodi; October 25, 2013 at 09:12 AM.

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    Re: Is the Bach of 1000 years ago (staying inside Ichigo) independent of the current Bach?

    I would argue black zangetsu is completely independent from juhabach. His decisions and actions through the manga are the exact opposite from what they should be if the actual juhabach had any sort of interference with the juhabach within ichigo.

    That said, I will take things further and argue that not only black zangetsu is independent from juhabach but also he is a complete anomaly within quincy. The first thing worth considering is this:
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...7-page-15.html
    Here we see cang du not even knowing freaking bankai are alive and kicking. How can the quincy have missed on such a huge detail? If it never even crossed their mind to see what exactly it was they were ripping from shinigami's souls then how can they have little juhabachs within them with whom they develop their powers? It never crossed their minds, the notion of living powers is completely foreign to them.

    Perhaps this makes sense with what we have seen of quincy powers. Quincy to begin with do not rely too heavily on the power within their souls so to speak. The basis of quincy powers is to draw out reishi from the outside. The most basic quincy technique there is, the holy arrow, is used through the quincy cross, a simple tool unrelated to quincy's soul. And to boot their strongest power, the volstandig, is a form induced by a glove. A volstandig in itself does not even have any effect on the nature of quincy techniques. Volstandig works as if supercharging a quincy however their techniques and skills remain at large exactly the same. Its like supercharging their bodies and shikai level abilities so to speak. Now, the supercharging is without a doubt effective but it is something distinct from what goes on when a shinigami uses bankai. Volstandig supercharges a quincy's normal techniques via adding power however bankai is made out of techniques which naturally consume enormous amounts of power. A shinigami's bankai does not enhance a shinigami's reiatsu, it merely consumes an overwhelming amount of it very quickly to use techniques which are enormously more powerful than before. Kubo has been very meticulous in regards to making quincy the exact opposite from shinigami so far.

    Anyways, perhaps ironically, the juhabach within ichigo is actually the result of ichigo's shinigami powers. Think about it, why would ichigo alone have the capacity to give a will to his quincy powers? The only explanation is that his quincy powers took this form because of ichigo's inherent shinigami powers. Shinigami powers are the ones that have the quality of turning into living things with a will, it would make sense that black zangetsu being an inherent portion of a shinigami's powers would get this sort of influence.

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    Re: Is the Bach of 1000 years ago (staying inside Ichigo) independent of the current Bach?

    Quote Originally Posted by Exodi View Post
    1. He has to protect Ichigo. Ywhach (Ichigo's Quincy power) isn't Ywhach (the physical man), but he does have some sort of sentience, and he happens to reside within Ichigo. Ichigo is his home, thus is has to protect it. As a result, he seems "nice".
    I think I know why Juhagetsu is nice and wants to protect Ichigo. Remember him as Tensa Zangetsu, he said that he doesn't care about what Ichigo wants to protect and only wants to protect him. Juhagetsu protects one thing... that's exactly what Ichigo's name means. Since Juhagetsu is a part of Ichigo, it's fitting that he took some of his traits.

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    Re: Is the Bach of 1000 years ago (staying inside Ichigo) independent of the current Bach?

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    I would argue black zangetsu is completely independent from juhabach. His decisions and actions through the manga are the exact opposite from what they should be if the actual juhabach had any sort of interference with the juhabach within ichigo.

    That said, I will take things further and argue that not only black zangetsu is independent from juhabach but also he is a complete anomaly within quincy. The first thing worth considering is this:
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...7-page-15.html
    Here we see cang du not even knowing freaking bankai are alive and kicking. How can the quincy have missed on such a huge detail? If it never even crossed their mind to see what exactly it was they were ripping from shinigami's souls then how can they have little juhabachs within them with whom they develop their powers? It never crossed their minds, the notion of living powers is completely foreign to them.

    Perhaps this makes sense with what we have seen of quincy powers. Quincy to begin with do not rely too heavily on the power within their souls so to speak. The basis of quincy powers is to draw out reishi from the outside. The most basic quincy technique there is, the holy arrow, is used through the quincy cross, a simple tool unrelated to quincy's soul. And to boot their strongest power, the volstandig, is a form induced by a glove. A volstandig in itself does not even have any effect on the nature of quincy techniques. Volstandig works as if supercharging a quincy however their techniques and skills remain at large exactly the same. Its like supercharging their bodies and shikai level abilities so to speak. Now, the supercharging is without a doubt effective but it is something distinct from what goes on when a shinigami uses bankai. Volstandig supercharges a quincy's normal techniques via adding power however bankai is made out of techniques which naturally consume enormous amounts of power. A shinigami's bankai does not enhance a shinigami's reiatsu, it merely consumes an overwhelming amount of it very quickly to use techniques which are enormously more powerful than before. Kubo has been very meticulous in regards to making quincy the exact opposite from shinigami so far.

    Anyways, perhaps ironically, the juhabach within ichigo is actually the result of ichigo's shinigami powers. Think about it, why would ichigo alone have the capacity to give a will to his quincy powers? The only explanation is that his quincy powers took this form because of ichigo's inherent shinigami powers. Shinigami powers are the ones that have the quality of turning into living things with a will, it would make sense that black zangetsu being an inherent portion of a shinigami's powers would get this sort of influence.
    True, it's another sign that Ichigo is a perfect hybrid. He doesn't just possess both powers, his Quincy powers are actually Zanpakuto-fied. Same for his Hollow ones.

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    Re: Is the Bach of 1000 years ago (staying inside Ichigo) independent of the current Bach?

    The fact that Ichigo is a mixed quincy but he didn't disappear (similar to Ishida's case) really means something about these two, I wonder there are something very special about them or Urahara did something illegal again.

    Even gods could not be absolutely certain whether they existed at the most fundamental level of reality or were themselves simulated.

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    Re: Is the Bach of 1000 years ago (staying inside Ichigo) independent of the current Bach?

    Its hard to say but assuming the explanation as for why ishida survived the selection is true then it should also apply tenfold to good old ichigo. Ishida is supposed to have something which surpasses juhabach whatever that may mean. But then again ishida is just a little quincy, ichigo is far more than that. Having a bit of every type of soul in him and considering there already is an instance of ichigo turning into a godlike being even if only temporarily it makes sense that ichigo would survive the selection. I am unsure of whether urahara would have done something to them.... If he could, wouldn't he have aimed to prevent katagiri and masaki having their powers taken? Considering that I would argue it makes more sense for them to have had survived on their own.

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    Re: Is the Bach of 1000 years ago (staying inside Ichigo) independent of the current Bach?

    ^ With limited power and resource I don't think Urahara could help everyone involved in this mess, maybe be Ishida's mom sacrificed herself to save her son maybe his dad did something too considering he has been an unwilling player in the story (how could an intelligent man let his wife and son disappear on him without doing anything?); on the other hand, the Bach inside Ichigo might help him in this case if Urahara wasn't able to do anything or he was able to save only one person at that time.

    I wonder whether only Ichigo has the old Bach version inside himself while all other pure quincies + Ishida have the latest version one. ( it sounds really like software upgrade for PC & smartphones )

    Even gods could not be absolutely certain whether they existed at the most fundamental level of reality or were themselves simulated.

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    Re: Is the Bach of 1000 years ago (staying inside Ichigo) independent of the current Bach?

    I do reckon Zangetsu's personality is a copy of Yhwach's once upon a time. I don't think he was always the ruthless tyrant he is these days, just as Yamamoto was once a ruthless tyrant and stopped being one. I'd be interested in seeing how he changed so much if that's true. But yes, they are two completely different beings. Zangetsu isn't technically even his own person really. I doubt Yhwach has any idea that he has a physical representation within Ichigo.

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    Re: Is the Bach of 1000 years ago (staying inside Ichigo) independent of the current Bach?

    If your a Quincy, that's mainly because Yhwach's blood is within your body and soul, which allows you to manifest those particular abilities. At least I think, that's what, Kubo's angle was with Ichigo and him finally learning and understanding another part of his power that's directly connected to his mother. The only thing I'm curious about is, why Yhwach's 1,000 year old, younger self appears within Ichigo's subconscious and not the current one.

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    Re: Is the Bach of 1000 years ago (staying inside Ichigo) independent of the current Bach?

    Quote Originally Posted by FetherMan View Post
    If your a Quincy, that's mainly because Yhwach's blood is within your body and soul, which allows you to manifest those particular abilities. At least I think, that's what, Kubo's angle was with Ichigo and him finally learning and understanding another part of his power that's directly connected to his mother. The only thing I'm curious about is, why Yhwach's 1,000 year old, younger self appears within Ichigo's subconscious and not the current one.
    Because Ichigo has his blood from 1000 years ago, or so it seems. He was in deep slumber, so he couldn't give anyone his blood. His self from back then was in that blood that he distributed.

    And answering the question in thread's name: Of course he is... It's just a manifestation of power, that has Juha's character and memories. It's like someone saved his game and sent it to someone else. Juha doesn't know what real Juha does, but he has his memories from before Juha founded his Quincy-charity.

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    Re: Is the Bach of 1000 years ago (staying inside Ichigo) independent of the current Bach?

    this is an interesting topic, i believe that zangetsu is a spirit form of juha bach, and when he was born or whatever zangetsu wasnt really pre-programmed

    but more or less had the overall will of juha bach in mind, however he grew as an independent entity that had no mental connection or communication with the actual juha bach

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    Re: Is the Bach of 1000 years ago (staying inside Ichigo) independent of the current Bach?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Because Ichigo has his blood from 1000 years ago, or so it seems. He was in deep slumber, so he couldn't give anyone his blood. His self from back then was in that blood that he distributed.

    And answering the question in thread's name: Of course he is... It's just a manifestation of power, that has Juha's character and memories. It's like someone saved his game and sent it to someone else. Juha doesn't know what real Juha does, but he has his memories from before Juha founded his Quincy-charity.

    I'm thinking that, because Ichigo's mother was a pure-blood Quincy that maybe this is the reason why, Yhwach's youthful appearance is inside Ichigo's mind. Plus, his Quincy power is what helped him maintain and control his shinigami-hollow powers to an extent. I hope, Kubo shows us the true appearance of Zangetsu or if, Ichigo will even have a need for one, now that he considers himself the blade or spirit form.

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    Re: Is the Bach of 1000 years ago (staying inside Ichigo) independent of the current Bach?

    It'd be funny to see Ichigo's Yhwach manifest in front of the real Yhwach. He can do that as he's done it before.

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    Re: Is the Bach of 1000 years ago (staying inside Ichigo) independent of the current Bach?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoOneInParticular View Post
    I do reckon Zangetsu's personality is a copy of Yhwach's once upon a time. I don't think he was always the ruthless tyrant he is these days, just as Yamamoto was once a ruthless tyrant and stopped being one. I'd be interested in seeing how he changed so much if that's true. But yes, they are two completely different beings. Zangetsu isn't technically even his own person really. I doubt Yhwach has any idea that he has a physical representation within Ichigo.
    Because Bach lost the battle 1000 years ago, hence he has learned to use Yamamoto's ruthless way in order to win the next war.

    ---------- Post added at 06:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:30 PM ----------

    "Because Ichigo has his blood from 1000 years ago"


    I fail to understand this, his mom wasn't that old and he is a mixed quincy, then how could it be possible for him to have pure blood from 1000 years ago?

    ---------- Post added at 06:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:32 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Notak View Post
    It'd be funny to see Ichigo's Yhwach manifest in front of the real Yhwach. He can do that as he's done it before.

    It's about time when Ichigo looses to Bach again in the future battle, then the old version will appear and save his ass similar to the process when he fought Kenpachi.

    I wonder how many quincies in the present still have this old version of Bach inside themselves.

    Even gods could not be absolutely certain whether they existed at the most fundamental level of reality or were themselves simulated.

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