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Thread: Collective Reading of PLUTO by Naoki Urasawa & Osamu Tezuka

  1. #46
    Intl Translator 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity ukimix's Avatar
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    Re: Collective Reading of PLUTO by Naoki Urasawa & Osamu Tezuka

    Quote Originally Posted by FaustXIII View Post
    Gesicht's memory was tampered huh?
    Is it because he investigated or discovered something before? Was it the chief who's responsible of the tampering.

    About the the pictures Gesicht and Helena had from their trip to Spain. They say it's too many for them and that they should not be relaxing because they went there for Gesicht's training as well not just for vacation. Maybe someone else was responsible for those.
    I'll throw some large theory about Gesicht's tampered memory. We know Gesicht and his wife's memories have been tampered by Schelling and his people. The 7 robots are massive destruction weapons; and the production of these kind of robots was forbidden, thanks to the intervention of the president Alexander. I'm guessing that the use of those robots as destructive weapons was also forbidden, and that, in the face of the conflict with the Persian Government, Europe and the UST (Schelling belongs to the German Europolice) used Gesicht and other robots as massive destruction weapons, in clear violation of the prohibition.

    We saw in chapter 11, how 3 of them killed over 2500 robots each one. They remember that pretty well. So likely what was erased of Gesicht memory was something even worse than massively killing robots, that could be killing humans. It’s a possibility given that according with Atom’s memories, there were many children crying for their dead parents in the world with Persia.

    So the assassination of many humans in Persia, done by the 7 robots could have been erased, or/and some similar events. All to keep those actions under-covered. Also what was erased was precisely the actions made by them which were clear violations of the Robot Law.

    That’s also consistent with the actions done by UST. They firstly create powerful weapons. Then the other nations begin to develop similar weapons, and in the face of it, they use international organizations to forbid the production of that kind of weapon, and take actions against those nations. But surely, they keep their special weapons safe in their countries, with the logic of something to have just in case... And also uses the mass media to make the people believe that the bad guys are bad. (Any similarity with the reality is just coincidence).

    Alexander Roosevelt, the president of UST and the artificial brain works together. And they are behind the assassination of the robots. But also, sure, they are behind the operations in Persia, Bora’s squad’s included. So this is weird, and if my guess is true, all the assassination could be a case of deleting the traces of some major war crime.

    And additional note about the robots feelings. It’s clear all the powerful robots we have seen dislike to kill robots. It’s how Montblanc, North 2, Brando and Heracles has been portrayed. Likely what Atom saw in his mind, when Gesicht let him to see his memories was the sad assassination of many robots. But that would mean Atom didn't kill any robot, and we still don’t know if that’s true.

    ---------- Post added at 09:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:58 AM ----------

    In this story, Robots are lovely. All of them, with the exception of Brau, are such nice 'persons': North, Montblanck, Brando, Atom, even Gesicht. And humans, in particular government and police personnel, are despicable characters; with the exception of the person who are taking care of the robots (creators and maintenance personnel) all of them treat the lovely robots as mere disposable objects, and make clear all the time that robots are less than humans. I like that of the story, because I think it's clearly not an anthropocentric plot.

    In chapter 11, we see how Heracles, after the counting of how many robots each of them killed, ask himself and his mates if they should not have killed instead who they really hate?:

    Spoiler show


    And in the previous chapter 10, we have seen Heracles says that in that moment, he learnt blood-lust:

    Spoiler show


    What do you think guys about it? Do Heracles and the other robots hate some humans? Do they want to kill some particular humans? Because the reference to the blood seems to be pretty clear about the nature of the subject they would like to kill or they have been hating. On my reading I think they understand and clearly are affected by the injustice. We know they feel pain and also sorrow, they seem to be able to love and care also. So likely they have some negative feelings against the people who make them kill robots. It's quite a paradox that they went to Persia to free the oppressed robots and the ended killing a huge amount of them; and the sadness is pretty evident in Montblanc, Heracles and Brando when they talk about that paradox.
    Last edited by ukimix; November 11, 2013 at 09:54 PM.

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  3. #47
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    Re: Collective Reading of PLUTO by Naoki Urasawa & Osamu Tezuka

    Quote Originally Posted by ukimix View Post

    What do you think guys about it? Do Heracles and the other robots hate some humans? Do they want to kill some particular humans? Because the reference to the blood seems to be pretty clear about the nature of the subject they would like to kill or they have been hating. On my reading I think they understand and clearly are affected by the injustice. We know they feel pain and also sorrow, they seem to be able to love and care also. So likely they have some negative feelings against the people who make them kill robots. It's quite a paradox that they went to Persia to free the oppressed robots and the ended killing a huge amount of them; and the sadness is pretty evident in Montblanc, Heracles and Brando when they talk about that paradox.
    I think they hate some humans. And I think they hate the feeling they used them to kill their own kind and that they were commanded to kill them.

    Additional to the Robots are Lovely, and Humas are despicable. I also think that the robots are much more sensitive than the humans. They care more about what's happening than the humans. All the humans did was to mourn the death of their favorite robots, Montblanc and Brando. And "some" fought for the rights of robots.

    I think the humans will appreciate, respect and love the robots more as the story goes by.
    Just like what happened to Paul Duncan and North#2.
    Last edited by FaustXIII; November 12, 2013 at 07:30 AM.

  4. #48
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Lomahongva's Avatar
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    Re: Collective Reading of PLUTO by Naoki Urasawa & Osamu Tezuka

    A quick post. If I have time I’ll add something more later.

    Quote Originally Posted by ukimix View Post
    There is a common feature in YKK and Pluto. In both robots try to resemble humans, or try to adopt human behaviours. This seems to be kind of a cliche, and I like when the stories show robots going beyond of that (YKK does it - You have to end it; it just adorable).
    I know! I remember that the little I read was so wonderful, sweet and adorable... I'll finish it

    Quote Originally Posted by ukimix View Post
    (This topic reminds me of Blade Runner. Has anyone watch it? It's about a robot who looks for his creator to be able to prolong his deadline. Absoultaely fantastic film by Ridley Scott. EDIT: In wanting to prolong his deadline, that robot wants to change his own code...!)
    Never watched it, I have to admit it. But I listened the final monologue in the radio once. It was good and the fact that it was only the voice and the sound of the raindrops made it more touching (I suppose it'd be better with images). My bad, you've encouraged me to watch it! XD

    We get a glimpse of Pluto’s aspect, a terrible and powerful robot. He could defeat easily two of the seven robots created as massive destruction weapons and he only have few problems when he faced Brando because he was using his pancratium armor. Really, this new robot is very superior to them, a dangerous monster.

    Dr. Roosevelt, “an artificial brain with a capacity thousands of times greater than ours”- as Brau said- in a teddy bear? Creepy. It seems a reference to those horror movies in which evil is incarnated in the most innocent toys, like those long haired porcelain dolls that wear Victorian dresses. It gives me goose bumps.

    The way Atom analyzed the crime scene was great. I enjoyed it may be because it reminded me a lot the Sherlock from the BBC’s show, but that’s because they magnified the analytic abilities of the original character, making his way of analysis be like a robot’s.

    Let's meet up in the New World! Oh, ok, but I'm the one who's gonna find One Piece! Hi hi hi!

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  6. #49
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity SharkBait's Avatar
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    Re: Collective Reading of PLUTO by Naoki Urasawa & Osamu Tezuka

    I thought the teddie bear is in connection with the huge machine that was behind the chair in that introductory scene with him. In any event, really compelling character who I would want to see get into discussion with the other robot locked away.

    Atom, teddie, and that locked away one are probably my favorites characters so far and at least the most intriguing.

    SoTaku is Love | Team Haikyuu!! | Team Stealth Symphony | Team Food Wars!

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    Intl Translator 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity ukimix's Avatar
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    Re: Collective Reading of PLUTO by Naoki Urasawa & Osamu Tezuka

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkBait View Post
    I thought the teddie bear is in connection with the huge machine that was behind the chair in that introductory scene with him. In any event, really compelling character who I would want to see get into discussion with the other robot locked away.

    Atom, teddie, and that locked away one are probably my favorites characters so far and at least the most intriguing.
    Loma said that robot is Pluto. I'm not sure about it yet, but it's very likely. But sure is there most be a connection between 'Pluto' and the super intelligent Teddy. I wonder also about the connection between that great scientist from Persia, who created so much powerful robots and Teddy and Pluto. Won't he be their creator?

  8. #51
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Lomahongva's Avatar
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    Re: Collective Reading of PLUTO by Naoki Urasawa & Osamu Tezuka

    May be I'm not understanding what you're refering to, Uki Which robot did I say was Pluto? I was talking about this image, passed on by Brando, because of the horns and that threatening look. After re-reading my previous post I don't see that I've ever identified it with another of the robots we've seen in vol. 2.

    P.S.: Sorry if I'm misunderstanding something (today is one of those days) or if I didn't express me correctly in the previous post.
    Last edited by Lomahongva; November 14, 2013 at 01:36 PM.

    Let's meet up in the New World! Oh, ok, but I'm the one who's gonna find One Piece! Hi hi hi!

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    Intl Translator 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity ukimix's Avatar
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    Re: Collective Reading of PLUTO by Naoki Urasawa & Osamu Tezuka

    No sorries please. It happens all the time we could be misunderstood.

    It's this line you wrote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lomahongva View Post
    We get a glimpse of Pluto’s aspect, a terrible and powerful robot. He could defeat easily two of the seven robots created as massive destruction weapons and he only have few problems when he faced Brando because he was using his pancratium armor. Really, this new robot is very superior to them, a dangerous monster.
    I understood you were referring just to that image you quoted, so identifying that robot as Pluto. It makes a lot of sense, because Brau speculated with a possible connection between the murders and told the god of war, Pluto. I only say that it's not confirmed, but very likely you are right... if that's what you meant

    ---------- Post added at 11:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:46 AM ----------

    Thread opened for comments on Volume 3 (chapters 16 to 23)

    Enjoy your reading!

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    Re: Collective Reading of PLUTO by Naoki Urasawa & Osamu Tezuka

    Sorry I am late I only finished volume 2 (Will try to read 3 faster). This is a volume where it would be interesting to read the original story. Because Pluto was written in 2004 (Golf War 2 was in 2003) and there is obvious reference to it. In particular the fact that the war was started upon a lie. The fact that the dictator who looks like Sadam is dictator of Persia is quite ironical. I'm not sure Iranians would like that.
    This volume questions the fact about the difference between robots and humans. Robots should not be able to have emotions from my understanding but it seems that it is not really true and that the more they experience the more they are able to feel some. When Astro says "A perfection that kills human. Is that what call human ?", it reminds me this last chapter of Sengoku Youkou where it says "What humans do best is being evil". It's not really optimistic statements but it's not completely false.

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  12. #54
    Intl Translator 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity ukimix's Avatar
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    Re: Collective Reading of PLUTO by Naoki Urasawa & Osamu Tezuka

    Some comments on vol 3:


    A wandering robot soul???

    Wandering soul… that’s interesting concept. I don’t understand it yet. Is it that the Pluto can incarnate in different bodies, like the vagabond robot’s one? In short, is Pluto, the monster we saw at the end of chapter 23, the same vagabond robot? What you guys think about it?

    If the wandering robot is the very same Pluto, which seems to be the case, robot Pluto is such a amazing character. On one side, being made in Persia, and with the capacity to create flowers and vegetation out of dried land, he could have to be created to fertilize the desert, I guess. He also wonders about the meaning of life and dead, which can be associate to his power to create life.

    But also, he has many inner conflicts. Right now, he’s disobeying the instruction to kill Atom; he killed Brando and North 2, and also Tazaki and very likely Ranke, the defenders of Robot Law. But he’s afraid also. He has nightmares or some psychotic memories from the war, and about that Boga robot.

    This is very interesting, because it’¡s connected with some feature developed by the authors, which is that robots learnt, or as k-dom put it, the more experience they had, the more can they understand about human feelings. Heracles learnt to hate, Epsylon learnt to love, and Pluto seems to be have being traumatized by his experiences from the war. He’s being used to kill robots and humans, and likely from that he could learn to hate, as it happened to Heracles. But it’s another paradox since his primary purpose was to create life. He’s an assassin who was created to create life. That could be the very same origin of all his inner conflicts and of the fact that he loses control and he disobeys his creator, professor Abra.

    Some questions remaining to me:

    Is there some connection between professor Abra and the KR?
    It seems so, but is professor Abra the scientist who was creating powerful robots in Persia?
    Why professor Abra wants all robots killed?
    What is the connection or relationship between Abra and the president of the UST and sinister Teddy?


    I'm reading english and spanish scans, and I noticed the English version lacks of many colour pages. Here the painting made by the vagabond robot in color version:

    Spoiler show

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    Re: Collective Reading of PLUTO by Naoki Urasawa & Osamu Tezuka

    Epsilon's character design reminds me of the long haired short-time villain from 20th Century Boys so every time I see Epsilon, I think of him as a bad character.

    So what's with Pluto?

    He used another robot body and still got the same powers?
    His powers doesn't depend on the robot body he is using?
    And he's a wandering soul? mind? subconscious?

    Maybe Abra is the leader in the shadows of KR.

    Need answers. Let's read one more volume!

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  15. #56
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity SharkBait's Avatar
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    Re: Collective Reading of PLUTO by Naoki Urasawa & Osamu Tezuka

    Volume 3 was probably the weakest and most dull volume. I guess Im not one for the hate or revenge going on (not to mention the brother probably did something. atrocious). The son is the most interesting part to that plotline though. I hope its resolved fast.

    In any event Atom...if the plot really turns toward seeing an eventual death of him...first time I was gripping my desk as I was reading. When the professor was gripping Atom too as the big event happened, so extreme.

    Pluto and Abra were the better done developments, tying it in to the wandering soul part, along with introducing him as a great creator really helped get the series back on track for me. I didnt think Pluto would have different forms or that we would get some aspects of supernatural powers in here (the vessel body bringing flowers to life, then the unexplained body with no brain core unit? (is that actually possible here, seemed like a weak attempt for the characters to explain and accept that which is happening by saying remotely controlled through em?).

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    Re: Collective Reading of PLUTO by Naoki Urasawa & Osamu Tezuka

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkBait View Post
    Volume 3 was probably the weakest and most dull volume. I guess Im not one for the hate or revenge going on (not to mention the brother probably did something. atrocious). The son is the most interesting part to that plotline though. I hope its resolved fast.
    I guess you are referring here to the initial part of vol 3, or better to the plot line about Adolf. Because you liked the development of Abra and Pluto. Then I totally agree. The KR is enemy of the creators and protectors of the robot law. Their root is “robot’s don’t have souls”, and their objective seems to be the destruction of all robots. Which is stupid and impossible purpose like it would be impossible and stupid to pursue the eradication of computers from our contemporary society. They play the role of fundamentalist group; but the troubling part of fundamentalists comes when they have power, which seems to be the case of the KR. Sure we will know more about them, so be ready.

    ---------- Post added November 22, 2013 at 10:21 AM ---------- Previous post was November 20, 2013 at 09:16 PM ----------

    Thread opened for comments on Volume 4 (chapters 24 to 31), from November 22 to 28

    Enjoy your reading!

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  18. #58
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Lomahongva's Avatar
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    Re: Collective Reading of PLUTO by Naoki Urasawa & Osamu Tezuka

    Sadly I'm behind with my reading. I've been with a cold these days and the last thing I needed was a complicated reading... Well, I'll try to catch up but next week I'm going to be busy again.

    Let's meet up in the New World! Oh, ok, but I'm the one who's gonna find One Piece! Hi hi hi!

  19. #59
    Intl Translator 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity ukimix's Avatar
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    Re: Collective Reading of PLUTO by Naoki Urasawa & Osamu Tezuka

    Quote Originally Posted by Lomahongva View Post
    Sadly I'm behind with my reading. I've been with a cold these days and the last thing I needed was a complicated reading... Well, I'll try to catch up but next week I'm going to be busy again.
    Sorry to read that. Let's hope you get better soon! You're always welcome to comment current volume or previous ones. The idea is to share and to comment on the impressions of the other participants. So let us know how you find the volumes whenever you read them.

    ---------- Post added November 23, 2013 at 06:52 PM ---------- Previous post was November 22, 2013 at 02:10 PM ----------

    Some comments on vol 4:



    Don't make humans closer to humans... or something terrible will happen!

    Don't make humans closer to humans... or something terrible will happen! This is a key to the whole story; and the dialogue between Goji and Hochanomizu in chapter 25 explains the meaning of the warning:


    The implication is clear: by nature humans kill humans. So, a development of robots that makes them nearly humans will be enter in conflict with the Robot Law which says that robots can’t kill humans. That paradox should have to be suffered by the advanced robots, and surely has to be solved somehow. Goji laughs at the way Hoshanomizu contradicts himself, first trying to deny that robots can kill and later saying that robots take revenge on humans of Team Bora. A true in this story is that Robot Law is against a natural development of advances IA. Tenma also explains it to Hoshanomizu at the end of the volume.

    We saw that the sinister Teddy has a superior IA than the group of targeted advanced robots. Isn't it possible that Teddy already solved that paradox, going beyond the Robot Law, and killing for his purposes? Anyway, the weakest link in the chain formed by this paradox is the Robot Law; Robots keep advancing and learning, and human nature won't change. So, very likely a very advanced IA will end breaking the Robot Law.

    Tenma also says IA is not created but raised, which is a very interesting, and is associated with the learning capability these advanced robots have. That IA is nurtured by sadness and frustrations and also by errors. "Only a wrong mind can be perfect!" A question to the story here would be how the whole plot is understanding perfection? Why, for instance, an advanced superior IA can’t be nurtured by profound joy and intense happiness? The story may be wanting to tell us something there... something valid at least for the sake of the story.
    Last edited by ukimix; November 28, 2013 at 09:52 AM.

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted k-dom's Avatar
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    Re: Collective Reading of PLUTO by Naoki Urasawa & Osamu Tezuka

    It seems our big villain has appeared. The last word of Tenma are quite powerful just when you see Gesicht about to make something "wrong". As always Urasawa is quite good in intertwining his different stories. But indeed why bad feelings are more necessary to raise intelligence (I don't think that artificial ones are that much different), that's quite a pessimistic view and Epsilon seems to show the countrary is also possible. But Tenma does not look like a very happy man.
    The death of Atom was quite a shock. I thought he would resuscitate since he is supposed to be the main character of the original story but the all volume is without him and no sign of his revival has shown.

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