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Thread: Neji Death Conspiracy!

  1. #1
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Kid Chameleone's Avatar
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    Neji Death Conspiracy!

    I think i understand why neji got killed, everything he said in part 1 was right!! he talked about destiny and how one cannot change what tehy were born into who conflicted with narutos original theme of hard work and dedication, but it turns out he was right about everything. naruto isnt a good ninja because he worked at it, he has storyline hax and destiny protection!!

    think about it

    hes an uzumaki which gave him a cheat code to finishing sage mode easily and his vast chakra/stamina + capability of handling the kyuubi

    hes the child savior

    hes the son of the fourth

    hes pretty much ninja jesus!!

    when you think about it, naruto was already chosen by destiny to be the hero of the manga. i mean i know hes the main character so of course hes gonna be #1 but the fact of the matter is the main theme from part one got destroyed because he is actually superior to most nins due to his dna and lineage. the entire theme that the story was built on has been destroyed by someone picked by destiny LOOL kishi runined his story by making naruto into ninja jesus instead of developing him as a character, he chose shortcuts like making the uzumaki the ultimate clan in order for naruto to gain sage/kyubi mode with relative ease, and make him some type of people magnet making all his villains fall in love with him without any real effort(if someone has been evil for like 10+ years theres no way talk-no jutsu from an immature kid would save you in 30 seconds)

    when you think about it, it kinda makes sense to kill off neji cause he was right all along and keeping him around kinda ruins the manga to some degree, seeing as naruto has been hand picked by destiny and has guardian angels guiding his every move.

    it seems like kishi sacrificed his original plot to have these super jutsu and to get his point across that "love conquers all".

    neji was right all along, you cant defy destiny LOOOOOOOL

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member LnDRash's Avatar
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    Re: Neji Death Conspiracy!

    Well yes... at first glance it may look that way, but Neji's message was actually a little different.

    "People are what they are. They can't change."

    Naruto back in those days was considered a dropout and a loser. According to Neji Naruto was born that way and he will always stay that way no matter how much he struggles to overcome said fate.

    It doesn't really matter it was later revealed Naruto has all those superb genetics and whatnot... back then he didn't know about any of it and he was generally considered a inferior loser. Had he given in to Neji's ranting and accepted what he used to be back then, all those asspull destiny powerups would never have occured because he would have stoped trying to improve himself and thus he would have never reached those points.
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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member chilibun's Avatar
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    Re: Neji Death Conspiracy!

    Quote Originally Posted by LnDRash View Post
    Well yes... at first glance it may look that way, but Neji's message was actually a little different.

    "People are what they are. They can't change."

    Naruto back in those days was considered a dropout and a loser. According to Neji Naruto was born that way and he will always stay that way no matter how much he struggles to overcome said fate.

    It doesn't really matter it was later revealed Naruto has all those superb genetics and whatnot... back then he didn't know about any of it and he was generally considered a inferior loser. Had he given in to Neji's ranting and accepted what he used to be back then, all those asspull destiny powerups would never have occured because he would have stoped trying to improve himself and thus he would have never reached those points.
    Actually, Naruto's "choice" to give up is just an illusion. He is the child of prophecy and is already destined to succeed. He can't or rather, he won't choose any other path. That is why people like the sage frogs and Rikudou can foretell the coming of the savior, Naruto. Once Kishi introduced that prophecy element into the story, that whole escaping destiny argument becomes bullshit, especially since we all know that it's going to come true by how everything always works out perfectly for him, and only for him. Who else can talk the villains into giving up their life long dreams and have a change of heart in like a minute? Who else can make the worst choices in the world but never have it come back to bite him in the ass? That's right. Only Naruto can. Having everybody and their mothers gushing over how special Naruto is doesn't help either. His success only proves that there is such a thing as a predetermined destiny and that people can't escape it. Naruto is destined to save the world and everybody else is destined to serve as witnesses to his greatness.
    Last edited by chilibun; October 29, 2013 at 03:55 PM.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member LnDRash's Avatar
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    Re: Neji Death Conspiracy!

    It does't matter if there's a predetermined fate and wether Naruto's resolve is an illusion or not.

    Neji was basically saying "once a loser always a loser. give it up, its something that will never change."

    Naruto proved that wrong. He didn't prove wether there is a predetermined fate or not, he simply proved that you don't know your fate and that it is possible for things to change. Wether that change was destined to happen or not is of little relevance here.
    Click here for what I consider the definition of "simply brilliant"

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Neji Death Conspiracy!

    Naruto could never plausibly prove neji wrong in that regard. By definition naruto was born unfit to prove that hard work triumphs genetics and talent. Naruto was born a superior human being from a physical and moral standpoint, that much is fact by this point. He was born a descendant to the sage of six paths, an uzumaki, son of a kage and on top of winning the genetic lottery he was given an infinite source of power through the kyubi. Naruto was never an untalented looser, people just didn't know how much better than all of them naruto was born. Naruto failed at the academy because the world was literally working against him. people freaking went out of their way to make naruto miserable and lonely. However as I have pointed out naruto was born not only physically better than them but also morally superior so heavy trauma did not turn him into a transvestite cannibal but rather it made him try to earn love and respect and whatnot. If naruto had been a normal human being, the king that are not born predestined to be awesome thanks to their superior genes and inherent moral highground, he would have been like pretty much any other kid whom the world went out of its way to make miserable.

    Neji perhaps was killed because, well, he was doomed anyways. He does have the best byakugan but the way the manga works so far implies that neji was never going to be free of the burden his clan placed on him. Lee was not going to beat him because lee failed the genetic test and can't even use ninjutsu. Lee never had a chance against someone like neji who was born a superior kind of human being. So in killing neji kishi did not have to bother to ever address the whole thing with the branch fate and he certainly would never have to address lee failing to defeat neji's superior genes. Neji dying a hero and reaffirming naruto's convictions is far less depressing than the bunch of depressing stuff he would inevitably have lived for otherwise as far as readers are concerned. Of course, neji's death would be more important if naruto's convictions hadn't been reaffirmed a billion times before and after his death. Or conversely neji died because the kyubi only has so many tails and it was a better excuse than just leaving him out of the attack that actually got obito.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member chilibun's Avatar
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    Re: Neji Death Conspiracy!

    Quote Originally Posted by LnDRash View Post
    It does't matter if there's a predetermined fate and wether Naruto's resolve is an illusion or not.

    Neji was basically saying "once a loser always a loser. give it up, its something that will never change."

    Naruto proved that wrong. He didn't prove wether there is a predetermined fate or not, he simply proved that you don't know your fate and that it is possible for things to change. Wether that change was destined to happen or not is of little relevance here.
    It absolutely does matter because the introduction of the prophecy element proves that everybody is bounded by fate. Losers will be losers and winners will be winners. The "choice" to persevere or not is just a part of a script already written by fate.

    Even if you think that it's irrelevant, Naruto's argument is nonsense because he is destined for greatness and is blessed with genetics, a magic genie in his stomach, and connections to some of the greatest shinobi's in the world. Naruto didn't become great just because he doesn't give up. He is great because he is blessed with all those things. Also, Neji's turmoil is not about being a loser or winner at all. It is that he, like his father, is born for the purpose of serving the main family branch. It is this idea of being bounded by destiny that Neji is trying to fight. So Naruto's success actually proves that Neji was indeed correct all along. That we are bound by destiny and that certain blessed people like Naruto, will triumph over those who are not.
    Last edited by chilibun; October 30, 2013 at 05:55 PM.

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    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity jaymizzo's Avatar
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    Re: Neji Death Conspiracy!

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    Actually, Naruto's "choice" to give up is just an illusion.
    How so? How is a choice based on childhood experience and sheer willpower an illusion? Are you telling us that Naruto does not give up simply because he is the child of the prophecy? T

    Quote Quote:
    He is the child of prophecy and is already destined to succeed.
    That is wrong. A prophecy is not a 100% success chance or a guarantee to play out. There are a lot of factors that come into play that could easily suade one into the wrong path.

    Major example - Nagato. For a long time Jiraiya considered him the child of the prophecy, hell actually had a genuine desire for peace. He was born with superior genes and body too, does that mean he was destined to succeed at everything he did?

    Quote Quote:
    He can't or rather, he won't choose any other path.
    No, He chose not to persue the path of evil or darkness. We saw that he could have gone down that route and given up, he had darkness in him that resented the village.

    His desire for acknowledgement and keeping to his words are what shaped him into what he is now. Not some prophecy.

    Quote Quote:
    That is why people like the sage frogs and Rikudou can foretell the coming of the savior, Naruto.
    There were two children of the prophecy and IIRC Minato had something of the sort too, I think it was the Raikage who said something along those lines, not sure what it was.

    Quote Quote:
    Once Kishi introduced that prophecy element into the story, that whole escaping destiny argument becomes bullshit, especially since we all know that it's going to come true by how everything always works out perfectly for him, and only for him.
    The whole prophecy thing did indeed ruin Naruto IMO, at face value it completely went against Narutos character and development in Part 1 and early part 2, however, if you look deeper you realise that the prophecy did not shape Naruto. He did not have to do the things he did. He simply could have ended up like either Sasuke or Obito but he didn't. He chose, not was chosen, he chose to pursue acknowledgement and the title Hokage.

    His heritage did not reach ridiculous heights until much later when everything was revealed to him. But even without knowing he was the child of the prophecy etc Im certain Naruto would still have been on the same path he has always been on.

    Quote Quote:
    Who else can talk the villains into giving up their life long dreams and have a change of heart in like a minute?
    Are we talking about Nagato or Obito?

    Either way, both of them have been shown to be very fragile and easily prone to suggestions. They have a weak mind IMO but have a strong thirst for whatever suggestion is implanted into their minds.

    Both characters have a lot in common with Naruto, so they could easily relate to him. An example of Naruto failing miserably to talk down someone out of their dream is Sasuke.

    If you truly believe that him being the child of the prophecy is a guaranteed "win" then how do you explain some of his failures?

    Quote Quote:
    Who else can make the worst choices in the world but never have it come back to bite him in the ass? That's right. Only Naruto can.
    What choice is that?

    Quote Quote:
    His success only proves that there is such a thing as a predetermined destiny and that people can't escape it. Naruto is destined to save the world and everybody else is destined to serve as witnesses to his greatness.
    No it does not. I agree that the prophecy route was rather retarded and anti climatic but I very much doubt the prophecy has anything to do with who Naruto is as a person. A Saviour/Prophet does not necessarily have to be holy, he can turn around and fuck people up and be evil. It is a matter of choice whether you take the dark or light route.
    "Man hands misery onto man" - Philip Larkin

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    Re: Neji Death Conspiracy!

    Quote Originally Posted by jaymizzo View Post
    How so? How is a choice based on childhood experience and sheer willpower an illusion? Are you telling us that Naruto does not give up simply because he is the child of the prophecy?
    Because there would never have been a chance that Naruto wouldn't make the choices he did. It's because of what he was destined to do that he did what he did, thereby leading to where it lead.

    Quote Originally Posted by jaymizzo View Post
    That is wrong. A prophecy is not a 100% success chance or a guarantee to play out. There are a lot of factors that come into play that could easily suade one into the wrong path.

    Major example - Nagato. For a long time Jiraiya considered him the child of the prophecy, hell actually had a genuine desire for peace. He was born with superior genes and body too, does that mean he was destined to succeed at everything he did?
    A prophecy by it's very nature is guarantee to happen. If it didn't, then it wouldn't be a prophecy. In fact, trying to prevent a prophecy simply brings it about, like the myth of Perseus, where he was destined to kill his grandfather Acrisius and specifically because Acrisius tried to prevent that, it ended up being brought about. Now obviously had Acrisius not done what he did, the events of the prophecy wouldn't have happen as they did. But the end result, him being killed by Perseus, still would have likely happen. There are alot of examples in Greek mythology of prophecies and now, regardless of how much one attempts to prevent them, they will still come about.

    Nagato's a horrible example, because his actions did in fact bring about the aforementioned prophecy. Now being a CoP doesn't mean he would have succeed at everything, but it did mean that he would succeed at what was prophesized: bringing about a great revolution to the ninja world. That is what he did with Naruto's help.

    Quote Originally Posted by jaymizzo View Post
    No, He chose not to persue the path of evil or darkness. We saw that he could have gone down that route and given up, he had darkness in him that resented the village.

    His desire for acknowledgement and keeping to his words are what shaped him into what he is now. Not some prophecy.
    He chose it because he was destined to choose it. The fact that there were other options doesn't change that due to the prophecy, Naruto would have always picked that path. If anything, it's the very explanation for not only why he turnt out the way he did, but events surrounding him happen the way they did.

    Quote Originally Posted by jaymizzo View Post
    There were two children of the prophecy and IIRC Minato had something of the sort too, I think it was the Raikage who said something along those lines, not sure what it was.
    Minato was just a guess by Jiraiya. he wasn't actually a child of prophecy. The Great Sage Toad declared that the prophesized CoP was both Naruto and Nagato together.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member chilibun's Avatar
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    Re: Neji Death Conspiracy!

    @jaymizzo,

    Pretty much exactly what Rikudou King said. Destiny is like a book. From the character's perspective, they do indeed make their own choices, but we know that they are simply following a script. Every choice and event is already predetermined. The characters themselves just don't know it.
    Last edited by chilibun; November 05, 2013 at 01:38 PM.

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    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Neji Death Conspiracy!

    If you look at it solely from Part I, Neji was so wrong and off. Naruto had no genetics except for foreshadow that he's the son of the FOurth Hokage nor was he a genius or intelligent by any means. Naruto worked hard to get where he was. EVEN if you take Part II into account, it changes nothing because Naruto wouldn't be as good as he is or gotten as far if it weren't for himself. Genetics or heritage would not have helped him be powerful or able to talk to anyone or refuse to give up or not change his path. That's all personality and willpower, which Naruto got because of his bad childhood.

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    Re: Neji Death Conspiracy!

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    If you look at it solely from Part I, Neji was so wrong and off. Naruto had no genetics except for foreshadow that he's the son of the FOurth Hokage nor was he a genius or intelligent by any means. Naruto worked hard to get where he was. EVEN if you take Part II into account, it changes nothing because Naruto wouldn't be as good as he is or gotten as far if it weren't for himself. Genetics or heritage would not have helped him be powerful or able to talk to anyone or refuse to give up or not change his path. That's all personality and willpower, which Naruto got because of his bad childhood.
    Correct as so far that it comes to how Part One was handling Naruto and his growth. But that really can't be said about Part Two. Both being able to handle a Bijuu and learning Sage Mode was thanks to his genetics, granting him the right body and a massive chakra pool. And his personality, along with his ninjutsu style, was gotten from Kushina according to Tsunade. The only questionable one is willpower, and that got attributed to the "Will of Fire" and Hashirama.

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Neji Death Conspiracy!

    Thing is Naruto was not the destiny child... Aparently it was MINATO... Oh w8 it was Nagato... Now w8.... Then it was Naruto.. Then it was Naruto and Nagato...

    Anyway Naruto had a choice... Naruto could have chosen to destroy the world or save it... He had a CHOICE, even if it was somewhat limited going by that prophecy.

    BTW if 1 can see the future one can make a prophecy about what is going to happen in the future... This in no way, shape or fashion remove choice from the picture... This guy would just know what choices you are going to make.

    Even in real life the believe in Christianity is based on free will and choice... Thing is God is also said to be omniscient... Hope you can put 2 and 2 togeder...
    Last edited by xXan; November 05, 2013 at 03:59 PM.

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Neji Death Conspiracy!

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    If you look at it solely from Part I, Neji was so wrong and off. Naruto had no genetics except for foreshadow that he's the son of the FOurth Hokage nor was he a genius or intelligent by any means. Naruto worked hard to get where he was. EVEN if you take Part II into account, it changes nothing because Naruto wouldn't be as good as he is or gotten as far if it weren't for himself. Genetics or heritage would not have helped him be powerful or able to talk to anyone or refuse to give up or not change his path. That's all personality and willpower, which Naruto got because of his bad childhood.
    Naruto's superior genes cannot be a factor only in part two though. Naruto always had his superior genes, he always had the senju traits which made him a better human being than others. We merely learned about him being a superior king of human later on in the series. If anything the whole thing makes sense that way. The notion that a bad childhood makes kids strong willed and hard working is absurd. Bad childhoods result in long term psychological damage which influences you and affects your ability to work as a normal human being. In naruto's very particular case it was not just a bad childhood for that matter. At some point society collectively decided naruto was a pest and deserved to be treated as such. Kids hated him, teachers didn't teach him and adults as a whole avoided him and left him to be miserable. That's way worst than a bad childhood, that's him having no form of human contact for god knows how long at times. Still, naruto overcame years of deep psychological trauma by having iruka smile at him or something. Worst, years of academic ineptitude were wiped clean the second someone believed in him and he learned how to make TKB in a night. Naruto is who he is because he was born better than everyone else specifically to be better than everyone else. gaara in part one would appear to be more like what a decade worth of society agreeing that you should be miserable is supposed to look like. But then again gaara was the son of a kage so naruto having some random stranger believe in you was enough to overcome years of crippling psychological trauma. Naruto overcame the weight of society wanting him to be miserable because he was born better than society. Like every other important person in the manga every, he had the genes for it. Who knows, maybe if naruto had had a normal childhood which would have spared him years of crippling psychological damage and teachers not wanting him to learn he would have brought about world peace by age 5.

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    Re: Neji Death Conspiracy!

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    BTW if 1 can see the future one can make a prophecy about what is going to happen in the future... This in no way, shape or fashion remove choice from the picture... This guy would just know what choices you are going to make.

    Even in real life the believe in Christianity is based on free will and choice... Thing is God is also said to be omniscient... Hope you can put 2 and 2 togeder...
    Which ties perfectly into the previous mentioned explanation of Naruto choosing something because he was destined to choose it.

    Don't really see how Christianity factors here, when the end is considered a foregone conclusion.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Jessie's Avatar
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    Re: Neji Death Conspiracy!

    Funny, if you go back to the so called Loser Group of Naruto, Shikamaru, Choji, and Kiba, the only one who didn't hit the genetic lottery and is continually overshadowed by greatness is Kiba. He doesn't posses the superior intelligence/leadership qualities of Shika, strength of Choji, or the genetic ridiculousness of Naruto.

    He just lacks the genes of the others. Which explains why he is badly overshadowed by their talents and accomplishments.

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